published Thursday, December 20th, 2012

The Debate

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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AndrewLohr said...

No finger-pointing? Oh, most gun massacres in the US have taken place in gun-free zones, where the shooter knows his victims will be unarmed. So we know gun control causes gun massacres. A lot of the shooters had known mental problems. So we know failure to disarm dangerous madmen causes gun massacres. Murderers who are dead do not start shooting people. So we know capital punishment would prevent some murders. Eh?

December 20, 2012 at 5:47 a.m.
conservative said...

Andrew, are you implying that the death penalty is a deterrent?

What a novel idea!

Pass it on.

December 20, 2012 at 6:51 a.m.
jesse said...

Well once these shooters decide to pull off a mass murder they know the safest place to do it is a gun free zone,that way they know they 'r the ONLY one w/a gun!

Ain't gonna get shot till they shoot themselves!

December 20, 2012 at 7:05 a.m.
fairmon said...

The number of deranged nut cases as a percent of the population has most likely been fairly consistent which means the number has increased along with the growing population. Can we anticipate and identify the next one that will trip out and do something crazy to kill people? Does the second amendment suggest citizens have the right or need to own assault weapons, tanks, high powered weapons, machine guns, high volume clips etc? How much fire power is needed for protection?

The obsession with gun ownership should be equaled by an obsession with responsible ownership and behavior. Or, as a country stand up and say we are willing to accept the risk knowing there will be other tragic events and heinous crimes with guns. Consequences of unauthorized possession should be severe without exception or any compromise.

December 20, 2012 at 7:15 a.m.
shoe_chucker said...

"Christians" support the death penalty. Who knew? If Lanza had survived and asked God for forgiveness would you still sentence him to death? Judge not etc etc. You all forgave Dr. Death in Jasper what's the difference?

December 20, 2012 at 7:15 a.m.
conservative said...

shoe, I'm sorry that you didn't know.

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed : for in the image of God made he man. Genesis 9:6

Now you know.

December 20, 2012 at 7:24 a.m.
shoe_chucker said...

Thou shalt not kill. I love how you pukes cherry pick the bible to suit your twisted narrative.

December 20, 2012 at 7:29 a.m.
conservative said...

shoe, the meaning of that is murder.

Now you know

December 20, 2012 at 7:36 a.m.
Maximus said...

Instead of doing the fastest. easiest to implement,practical. effective. common sense fix for the random problem of school violence, place an armed peace officer in every school in America, what does Dear Leader Obama do.....form a committee and put the Joker Thug Biden in charge. In other words, Obama knows there will be way, way too much political risk in actually doing something about the issue so he will state that he is for gun control or whatever in order to "look good" and not risk losing Democratic seats in the upcoming mid term elections. Again, gun control is not the answer. Increased security and peace officers with peace makers (guns) in our schools is the fix. Yes folks, Obama is nothing special, just another politician. If I were a governor, I would immediately assign an armed officer to every public school. These shooters don't seem to mess with private schools. Hmmmm, I wonder why? Maybe because they know there are some teachers, administrators, security officers, etc. there who are strapped!

December 20, 2012 at 8:23 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Max, most public schools have officers. They are called SRA's.

It sounds like this shooter may have been better armed than the average officer, which is exactly the problem. Combat style weapons and high capacity magazines don't belong in the hands of the public, much less in the hands of a known disturbed young man.

Shoe, conservative is a wacko. You waste your time arguing with him because he is a Liar for Jesus. Now you know.

December 20, 2012 at 8:38 a.m.
conservative said...

Wrong again IKe, your argument is with God, not me.

You don't know what you are talking about with guns either.

December 20, 2012 at 8:47 a.m.
fairmon said...

Does an eye for an eye a tooth for tooth apply? Capital punishment may or may not be a deterrent but it sure saves money and cuts down on repent offenders. It is a waste of money for people like Sirhan, Manson and the killer of the policeman locally to still be alive.

December 20, 2012 at 8:49 a.m.
conservative said...

Guns,clips and ammo are flying off the store shelves.

Owebama is only going to profit the gun makers because any changes in "assault" (they are not true assault rifles ) rifles will only be cosmetic as they were the last time Liberals were duped.

Furthermore, a 10 round clip can be changed just as fast as a 30 round clip, just more often and ten round clips could be easily weld together to increase there capacity.

The frail of mind can be led to believe anything!

December 20, 2012 at 8:54 a.m.
raygunz said...

fairmon, kill 'em,or keep 'em?? Which really costs more?

(As if that were really the issue.)

December 20, 2012 at 8:55 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Sorry, conservative, but you are a liar, and your religion-soaked brain tells you that it is okay because you do it for Jesus. And you have not demonstrated that what I said about guns was inaccurate.

December 20, 2012 at 8:55 a.m.
alprova said...

maximus wrote: "Instead of doing the fastest. easiest to implement,practical. effective. common sense fix for the random problem of school violence, place an armed peace officer in every school in America"

Sorry, but that won't work either. One man cannot protect every building and every student. If he's guarding the front door, the shooter can come in the back door or into another building.

"what does Dear Leader Obama do.....form a committee and put the Joker Thug Biden in charge. In other words, Obama knows there will be way, way too much political risk in actually doing something about the issue so he will state that he is for gun control or whatever in order to "look good" and not risk losing Democratic seats in the upcoming mid term elections."

Most of this nation is behind the President on this one. I hate to announce it, but you're in the minority, as usual.

"Again, gun control is not the answer. Increased security and peace officers with peace makers (guns) in our schools is the fix."

Of course, that is strictly an opinion, and one that you cannot back up with evidence that it will or has worked. Can you point to any news story that proved that a gunman was shot and killed before he was able to carry out his carnage.

In fact, I'm almost certain that at least two schools where students were killed, were protected by at least one armed officer. The school in Arkansas and Virginia Tech had armed officers on staff.

"Yes folks, Obama is nothing special, just another politician. If I were a governor, I would immediately assign an armed officer to every public school."

Well you're not a Governor and your idea is quite innocuous, for it only offers a very limited amount of protection and is concentrated within the proximity of where an officer is at any given moment.

"These shooters don't seem to mess with private schools. Hmmmm, I wonder why? Maybe because they know there are some teachers, administrators, security officers, etc. there who are strapped!"

I'm quite sure that outside of a possible security guard or two, guns are as rare at private schools as they are in public schools.

School Resource Officers have been around for 40 years in some areas of the nation, especially in larger cities. Most of them are armed too.

In a school that currently has no resource officers, it would only offer a very limited amount of protection, because one man cannot guard every entrance point at all times.

If he is on the opposite side of a school campus and a shooter is on the other, in less than a minute, there could easily be a repeat of Sandy Hook Elementary.

December 20, 2012 at 8:58 a.m.
conservative said...

It always comes to name calling with you Ike.

The truth is I know your condition.

Your claim of a "proud heathen" is witness to that.

As long as you are living it is not to late to change.

December 20, 2012 at 9:03 a.m.
jdavid said...

Maxipad. You shouldn't call people silly names and then asked to be taken seriously.

December 20, 2012 at 9:04 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I am a proud heathen, conservative. Somehow that really pisses you off, that I don't believe in your sky fairy. That doesn't make you any less wrong, though.

December 20, 2012 at 9:05 a.m.
fairmon said...

Is the death of 26 innocent people murdered at one time more concerning than the killing of 26 innocent people, including 20 children, one at a time at the hands of different people. It is not up to Obama, it is the responsibility of congress and those they represent to address this difficult issue. Those doing nothing should feel responsible. Is it videos, mental health recognition and treatment failures instead of guns to blame? Decide what it is and pay to fix it with no money borrowed. Pay to play.

December 20, 2012 at 9:05 a.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "Wrong again IKe, your argument is with God, not me."

Your insistence in speaking for God is the very definition of taking God's name in vain, since you condemn others to hell just as assuredly one does when they follow his name with the "D" word.

You might not know it now, but you will when you stand in judgment.

"You don't know what you are talking about with guns either."

I thought was she wrote was rather on target. There are good arguments that have been made, many times, that dictate why "combat style weapons and high capacity magazines don't belong in the hands of the public, much less in the hands of a known disturbed young man."

Since you know so much about guns, can you point to any source that proves that having any assault weapon, capable of dispensing more than let's say...thirty rounds, has actually saved lives, in that one was used for protection?

I'd sure be encouraged to read one or two, at the very least.

That challenge goes to anyone out there. Let's see some proof that these weapons capable of dozens of rounds, high caliber in nature, are useful for protection, rather than as tools of death.

December 20, 2012 at 9:10 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Fairmon-one addition: some forms of brain development deficiencies are not treatable. Sociopaths and others who lack empathy cannot be helped. You can only make sure that the minority of them who are capable of committing such an act don't get the chance. Since you can't identify which ones fit this minority group, it behooves us as a nation to either treat them all as suspect (rather unconstitutional) or keep weapons of mass destruction out of their hands. A sociopath can hurt or kill with a shotgun, yes, but can be taken out while reloading. But a sociopath with a semiautomatic rifle and a high capacity magazine can kill a lot of people before someone can take him out. There is no deterrent, either. This kid killed himself too, so he obviously did not fear being stopped by another.

December 20, 2012 at 9:12 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Another cliche from the master cliche recycler.

It is too bad that we do not hear about the lawful use of firearms that saves lives and stops crime on a routine basis. If we heard balanced reporting every citizen would know that the benefits of a well armed citizen are real.

Every time I turn on the news for the past week I see multiple reports on the same incident. The reporting is so frequent and redundant that a critical citizen recognises it for what it is, pure propaganda designed to sensationalise and influence opinion.

December 20, 2012 at 9:28 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

How many times have you heard this story?

"Zachary Rogers, 26, was working late one night at the 21st Amendment liquor store. It was just past midnight when an armed man wearing a ski mask entered the store and forced Rogers and another store employee, Alicia Grabarcysk, 25, down a hallway toward an office where the safe was kept. With a concealed handgun in his front pocket, Rogers chose his moment of opportunity carefully. In one quick motion, Rogers pushed Grabarcysk to the floor and fired at the armed robber. He then helped Grabarcysk into the office and out of the line of fire. Although the burglar had been struck, Rogers saw him raise his firearm. Rogers fired three more rounds at the gunman which proved fatal. Neither Rogers nor Grabarczyk were harmed."

http://www.indystar.com/article/20121010/NEWS/121010015/21st-Amendment-clerk-describes-fatal-shooting-gunman

December 20, 2012 at 9:37 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Notice, BRP, that a handgun was used, not a high capacity combat weapon.

December 20, 2012 at 9:40 a.m.
mtnman1 said...

shoe_chucker said... Thou shalt not kill. I love how you pukes cherry pick the bible to suit your twisted narrative.

December 20, 2012 at 7:29 a.m. permalink suggest removal

Suggest you do a little light reading:

12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

13 And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.

14 But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.

15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

December 20, 2012 at 9:42 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

You probably never heard this story either...

"While at home with his wife and daughter, a homeowner prepared to go outside to investigate a sudden power outage. His wife asked him to carry his firearm with him as a precaution. As he opened the front door to step outside, three men charged him in an attempt to gain entry. The homeowner pushed his wife aside as he fell backward and fired at the intruders. His daughter, a student in her early 20's, hid in another room and called police. One of the three home invaders suffered multiple gunshot wounds and was listed in serious condition. The remaining two suspects managed to escape. The homeowner and his family were not seriously injured."

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-10-01/news/fl-miramar-intruder-shot-20121001_1_miramar-police-tania-rues-miramar-homeowner

December 20, 2012 at 9:44 a.m.
jesse said...

Here ya go,Al!

Not exactly what you wanted but found this pretty quick so !

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/long-island-man-arrested-for-defending-home-with-ak-47/

December 20, 2012 at 9:47 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Notice, BRP, that a handgun was used, not a high capacity combat weapon."

Do you know what a combat weapon is? We already cannot own modern automatic weapons in this country. A soldier would not be sent onto a battlefield with an AR15 or any other semi-automatic look-alike of a modern assault rifle. I wish people could get this simple fact straight.

December 20, 2012 at 9:49 a.m.
fairmon said...

You want less of something tax it, if you want more of something reward it. Make guns and ammunition at the point of origin prohibitively expensive by taxing them and the number will drop drastically. Laws against drugs, gambling, prostitution and at one time alcohol only made criminals wealthy as would a law against guns.

We are told daily how increased taxes will cause the economy to be worse except for those few that we apparently want fewer of so why would it not work for guns?

December 20, 2012 at 9:50 a.m.
Maximus said...

Ike, Sandy Hook did not have an officer. Alprova, "Most of the nation is behind the President". What? The latest Gallup Poll does not support your claim. Also, everyone should read an excellent op/ed in the Tuesday, Dec. 18, 2012 issue of the Wall Street Jounrnal by David Kopel, the research director of the Independence Institute and co-author of the law school textbook, "Firearms Law and the Second Amendment." A few quotes:

"The problem is that by the time the police arrive, lots of people are already dead. So when armed citizens are on the scene, many lives are saved. The media rarely mention the mass murders that were thwarted by armed armed citizens at the Shoney's Restaurant in Anniston, Ala. (1991), the high school in Pearl Miss. (1997), the middle school dance in Edinboro, Penn. (1998), and the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. (2007) among others."

" Real gun-free zones are a wonderful idea, but they are only real if they are created by metal detectors backed up by armed guards. Pretend gun-free zones, where law-abiding adults (who pass a finger-print based background check and a safety training class) are still disarmed, are magnets for evildoers who know they will be able to murder at will with little threat of being fired upon."

"People who are serious about preventing the next Newton should embrace much greater funding for mental health, strong laws for civil commitment of the violently mentally ill- and stop kidding themselves that pretend gun-free zones will stop killers."

Alprova, Obama did what every slick politician would do on this issue. Appoint a partisan committee to bring about "comprehensive" reforms and then do nothing.

December 20, 2012 at 9:51 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Perhaps I am using the wrong term. My point is that we don't as private citizens need to be able to shoot more than three or four rounds before reloading. Does that help?

December 20, 2012 at 9:52 a.m.
Rebus said...

fairmon. Disagree with your argument that the death penalty is cheaper than life without. Death penalty cases take years, usually with several costly appeals. You may have a point, but I bet the costs would be relatively the same.

December 20, 2012 at 9:53 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

You MAY have heard this story, once, if you ever watch Fox News...

"Kendra St. Clair, a 12-year-old at home alone one day during her fall break, called her mother to say there was a man repeatedly ringing the doorbell and banging on the door. When no one answered the door, she said he disappeared. St. Clair's mother instructed her daughter to get her .40-cal Glock pistol and go into the bathroom closet. St. Clair heard him break in through the back door. As the man made his way through her home, 911 dispatchers kept St. Clair on the phone. He was inside the home for approximately 6 minutes before he made his way to the bathroom where St. Clair was hiding. When she saw the door knob begin to turn, she fired the gun. The 32-year-old intruder was taken into custody after being treated for a gunshot to the chest."

Listen to the audio on this page, St. Clair sounds absolutely terrified during the 911 call.

http://newsok.com/durant-girl-12-talks-about-shooting-home-intruder/article/3720428

December 20, 2012 at 9:56 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Perhaps I am using the wrong term. My point is that we don't as private citizens need to be able to shoot more than three or four rounds before reloading. Does that help?"

You are entitled to your opinion. In my opinion the government has no right whatsoever to say how many rounds I can have in my clip or what rate of fire I can deliver.

Ask any soldier, there are times when one well placed round is appropriate, at other times, against a well armed perpetrator, you can't have enough rounds loaded in your weapon. You need to be able to keep them on the defensive. Pausing to reload gives them the opportunity to take the offensive.

December 20, 2012 at 10:05 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Well, in your world then an unstable person can have access to such a weapon. How do you propose to minimize the chance that this kind of carnage happens again? Submachine gun in every teacher's hand?

As long as perps have better weapons than bystanders and police, the carnage will continue.

December 20, 2012 at 10:08 a.m.
Maximus said...

One more thing.....At the Clackamas Mall in Oregon last week, an active shooter murdered two people and then saw that a shopper, who had a handgun carry permit, had drawn a gun and was aiming at him. The murderer's next shot was to kill himself.

Have you taken a gun safety class and do you have a gun carry permit? I do. The argument that you can't have guns in every classroom does not make sense. Statistics show that these mass murder/shooters pick environments where there is a low liklihood of a gun being present anywhere in the building. So having zero guns on a school campus is a good security plan??....I don't think so. There is no fool proof plan. We even had a mass killing recently on one of the most secure places in the U.S., a military base. As you will recall, Nadal Hassan, currently on trial but should have been executed a long time ago, shot and killed many of our best and brightest on a Texas military base. There will always be evildoers but at least we can take action to make their evil mission a lot more difficult.

December 20, 2012 at 10:08 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Maximus said... "Ike, Sandy Hook did not have an officer. Alprova"

Exactly, and the coward knew that, or he would not have chosen that school as his target. The officer would have had the chance to position himself to take control of the situation as soon as he/she heard the coward shoot to gain access to the building.

December 20, 2012 at 10:13 a.m.
Rebus said...

I defend the 2nd amendment, but wonder how much of the AR-15, etc type of weapons are simply fulfilling some sort of macho need? Just wondering.

December 20, 2012 at 10:19 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

How likely would it have been that an officer would have been similarly armed? How likely would it have been for the officer to reach the affected classrooms before that creep emptied his high capacity magazines? Why are we not discussing why his mother, a civilian, owned such a weapon and in addition, trained her disturbed son how to use it and let him get access to it?

December 20, 2012 at 10:19 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Well, in your world then an unstable person can have access to such a weapon. How do you propose to minimize the chance that this kind of carnage happens again? Submachine gun in every teacher's hand? As long as perps have better weapons than bystanders and police, the carnage will continue."

You are incorrect. Find me an example of when one of these psychopaths confronted any kind of firearm and prevailed. People like this have already resigned themselves to death as a part of their actions. See Maximus's example above.

They want the attention the media will pour over their memory as a consequence of their final action. They almost always take their own life as some kind of twisted demonstration of control right up to the end.

December 20, 2012 at 10:22 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "How likely would it have been that an officer would have been similarly armed?"

He does not have to be. He would be trained to quickly advance from one protected position to the next and let the perpetrator walk into his field of fire. The perpetrator would not know what hit him.

December 20, 2012 at 10:24 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Again, BRP, I am not disagreeing with this part of your point. My point is with such weapons the damage these people can inflict BEFORE being taken out is a price we pay for unregulated high capacity semiautomatic weapons, not your average hunting weapon or handgun.

Let me propose a scenario-had that school had a SRO, and they were at the front entrance, and this kid broke into a room at the rear of the building, with a handgun he might have managed 6 shots at the most before the officer made it to the rear and taken him out.

December 20, 2012 at 10:25 a.m.
Maximus said...

Rebus...regulation is a slippery slope when it comes to our Constitutional Rights as stipulated by our forefathers who were inspired by God.

December 20, 2012 at 10:30 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Maximus, I am sure our founding fathers had no idea that we would have guns that could shoot so many deadly rounds, or nuclear weapons and RPG's for that matter.

December 20, 2012 at 10:31 a.m.
Rebus said...

lkeithlu--Lots of people choose guns and range practice as a hobby. I don't fault the mother for that. I do question bringing along the boy. (if she did) Perhaps it was an attempt to "bond" with the boy. We will never know.

December 20, 2012 at 10:34 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Again, BRP, I am not disagreeing with this part of your point. My point is with such weapons the damage these people can inflict BEFORE being taken out is a price we pay for unregulated high capacity semiautomatic weapons, not your average hunting weapon or handgun."

All weapons are regulated. You need to have a background check in order to purchase any firearm from a legal dealer.

If a psychopath did not have access to a weapon with a high capacity magazine he would simply arm himself with more magazines or multiple weapons. Reloading matters little until the first opponent shows up with another firearm. Until then, the perpetrator reloads at his leisure and continues shooting the fish in the barrel.

December 20, 2012 at 10:35 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Maximus, I am sure our founding fathers had no idea that we would have guns that could shoot so many deadly rounds, or nuclear weapons and RPG's for that matter."

IMHO (I hate to presume to speak for such great men), our founding fathers would be outraged that we cannot own an M4 or an SG 550. They were not talking about the right to hunt or shoot targets. They were talking about giving us the tools to protect ourselves from an out of control government.

December 20, 2012 at 10:39 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

All weapons are regulated. You need to have a background check in order to purchase any firearm from a legal dealer.

You are incorrect. Sale of weapons between private individuals is legal and requires no background check. I could have sold that creep a gun.

If a psychopath did not have access to a weapon with a high capacity magazine he would simply arm himself with more magazines or multiple weapons. Reloading matters little until the first opponent shows up with another firearm.

Reloading takes time. Anything that slows them down increases the chances that the number of victims will be lower.

December 20, 2012 at 10:40 a.m.
conservative said...

Alprova, I must take you to task. Your are over overwhelmed with pride, arrogance and ignorance.

regarding your "Your insistence in speaking for God is the very definition of taking God's name in vain." Pointing someone such as yourself to Scripture is not taking God's name in vain, you greatly err, this is common sense.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and howshall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and howshall they hear without a preacher ?Romans 10:14

A Christian is commanded to tell others of Christ, you do greatly err.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying , All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo , I am with you alway , even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mathew 28:18-20.

December 20, 2012 at 10:40 a.m.
Walden said...

In the general forum these days, there is a lot of debate over concealed carry laws, and what ought and ought not be a "gun free" zone. Question to ponder: If you are in a crowded public space, such as a movie theater, a concert hall, or even a church... and a deranged killer showed up randomly spraying people with bullets... wouldn't you be mighty glad that there was at least one law-abiding citizen in your midst, with good gun skills, carrying a weapon? Think about it, you're pinned down, cowering under a movie theater seat while the killer is walking around randomly shooting people. Wouldn't it be really nice if the guy next to you pulled out a gun and planted some hot lead in said deranged killer's brain?

December 20, 2012 at 10:42 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

What you fail to understand, conservative, is that your book is not a source of authority to unbelievers, so quoting from it is meaningless.

Walden, absolutely. I am not arguing against guns in general, concealed carry laws or guns in public places. Only guns that shoot large numbers of rounds in a short period of time in the hands of civilians and hence accessible to unstable individuals.

December 20, 2012 at 10:42 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Rebus....first of all the 2nd Ammendment does not give us the right to keep and bear arms. The framers of the constitution recognized this right already existed without any action on their part. The 2nd Ammendment merely acknowledges that right and insures it will "not be infringed." Maybe owning such a weapon does "fulfill a macho need", so what. Maybe it's just a hobby, a sport, etc. The reason for a law abiding citizen owning such a weapon should not have to be justified.

December 20, 2012 at 10:43 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Reloading takes time. Anything that slows them down increases the chances that the number of victims will be lower."

You are too willing to give up your freedoms for a tiny measure of unwarranted "security". That is how we have been duped into relinquishing almost all of the freedom we once had in this country. One little sacrifice of liberty here, a surrender of freedom there, the next thing you know we are all having our behaviour limited by the government based on what the mentally weak might do with that freedom. It is all in the name of "our best interests".

December 20, 2012 at 10:50 a.m.
davisss13 said...

Bennett, you're wrong on this one. Usually I agree with you but not this time.

December 20, 2012 at 10:54 a.m.
Rebus said...

patriot1--Was just a thought. Just wonder how many AR owners are under 5'8"?

December 20, 2012 at 11:01 a.m.
conservative said...

Ike, regarding your "What you fail to understand, conservative, is that your book is not a source of authority to unbelievers, so quoting from it is meaningless."

If Scripture was meaningless you would not seethe every time you see it, you would just ignore it, but you can't. Don't you understand the power of the word of God?

For the word of God is quick , and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

December 20, 2012 at 11:04 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Walden said... "Wouldn't it be really nice if the guy next to you pulled out a gun and planted some hot lead in said deranged killer's brain?"

Nice? That would be "really nice" for you? What would be "awesome" for you, a small grenade stuck into a stab wound in his stomach which blows his flesh across the faces of the victims, who then partake in some kind of conservative blood orgy which somehow honors Jesus? LOL I think you've got a spring loose in your banana clip.

December 20, 2012 at 11:05 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

What we seem to be forgetting is that most of the recent examples of mass shootings had the shooters wearing bullet proof vests and several were wearing helmets covering most of their head and face... Also some people are just not meant to have a gun because their aim is terrible and would do more harm than good.

December 20, 2012 at 11:08 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Rebus....good point, I get what you're saying as I'm sure little man syndrome is part of it, LOL

December 20, 2012 at 11:09 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Another story you probably have not heard...

"Carson broke into the home of Jack and Linda Dillon at 2:44 a.m. on Oct. 19 at 112 Water St. He allegedly got a boost from a friend through an unlocked window. Jack Dillon was sleeping on the floor in the living and dining room area with a handgun nearby, Elyria police Lt. Andy Eichenlaub said. He slept there to make sure no one came in the house since someone stole a flat-screen television the night before, Eichenlaub added. He was woken up by Carson and he called out to him. Carson then lunged at Jack Dillon who shot him, police said. The intruder's wound proved fatal."

http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2012/10/27/news/doc508b4d8e907c1387828304.txt

December 20, 2012 at 11:11 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

conservative: seethe? Your comments don't have that effect on me. You flatter yourself.

BRP, I suspect the families of the fallen would not find that keeping high capacity weapons out of the public hands would be too high a price to pay. I know my relatives in law enforcement don't think so either. A line must be drawn somewhere, and making sure psychos are not better armed than the police is the goal here. After all, it is a real risk, not the imaginary one of the government throwing out the constitution.

December 20, 2012 at 11:13 a.m.
conservative said...

IKe, "Your comments don't have that effect on me"

Again, you are obtuse. I make/made no claims on MY comments, I referred to the word of God.

You need to slow down and read before you react.

December 20, 2012 at 11:19 a.m.
miraweb said...

And there are all the stories I have heard.


Camden, New Jersey 1949 13 dead


Austin, Texas 1966 19 dead


Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania 1982 13 dead

San Ysidro, California 1984 22 dead

Stockton, California 1989 6 dead


Killeen, Texas 1991 24 dead

Littleton, Colorado 1999 23 dead


ASSAULT WEAPONS BAN EXPIRES - 2004


Blacksburg, Virginia 2007 33 dead

Kingston, Alabama 2009 11 dead

Binghamton, New York 2009 14 dead

Fort Hood, Texas 2009 13 dead


Tuscon, Arizona 2011 6 dead

Aurora, Colorado 2012 12 dead

Newtown, Connecticut 2012 28 dead


BRP, you will need to find 89 examples of lives saved just to match the deaths in the past five years from mass shootings.

Be sure you add in the 600 fatal gun accidents per year and the 10,000 gun homicides.

There is a real rise in killings in recent years. Finger pointing, or not, we really need to know what has changed.

December 20, 2012 at 11:21 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your comments. I don't believe you are channeling your god.

December 20, 2012 at 11:21 a.m.
conservative said...

A rational person would quit responding if another's comment had no effect on them.

December 20, 2012 at 11:28 a.m.
miraweb said...

Very zen, conservative.

December 20, 2012 at 11:29 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "I suspect the families of the fallen would not find that keeping high capacity weapons out of the public hands would be too high a price to pay. I know my relatives in law enforcement don't think so either. A line must be drawn somewhere, and making sure psychos are not better armed than the police is the goal here. After all, it is a real risk, not the imaginary one of the government throwing out the constitution."

You are coming to conclusions based on your emotions. Government always systematically takes away freedom. We need to guard it jealously. Please do not confuse problems with the mentally ill with Constitutional freedoms.

December 20, 2012 at 11:29 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

You are coming to conclusions based on your emotions

Seems you are too. People have been killed by these weapons. I know of no constitutional rights that have been taken away from any citizens. I would love some examples. Especially in this current admin.

conservative, you would love it if I went away. One less person to point out your inanity.

December 20, 2012 at 11:32 a.m.
miraweb said...

And twenty children just lost their constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The amendments are not absolute freedoms. Every one of them has limits and is balanced against other rights.

December 20, 2012 at 11:35 a.m.
conservative said...

thanks, miraweb, Ike is just desperate for a win. Sorta like the Jets.

December 20, 2012 at 11:41 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Kinda like your pursuit of MTJohn from thread to thread with your homophobia hanging out?

December 20, 2012 at 11:44 a.m.
Rebus said...

"The amendments are not absolute freedoms. Every one of them has limits and is balanced against other rights."

Good words Miraweb.

December 20, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
Rebus said...

2,800 children and teenagers die every year in US because of gun violence. But let's not rush to do anything about it.

But hey, no rush.

December 20, 2012 at 11:47 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Brp is correct, government is not a giver of rights, it takes away freedom. The 4th ammendment got trampled on pretty good post 9/11 in the face of opposition from many liberals on this forum, and rightly so I might add. Let's don't let our emotions allow that to happen again.

December 20, 2012 at 11:48 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Ikie......if you can think of NO freedoms that have not been taken away you surely have not heard of the Patriot Act. And yes, this was passed during the term of George Bush, but strengthened during the current adminstration. Government is a taker of rights, not a giver. If republicans can give us the Patriot Act just imagine what a bunch of democrats can do.

December 20, 2012 at 12:03 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

miraweb said... "you will need to find 89 examples of lives saved just to match the deaths in the past five years from mass shootings."

Thank you for demonstrating how easy it is to find your 89 examples. You can probably find that list on any gun control oriented web site. On the other hand, you will be hard pressed to find any comprehensive list of any "positive" use of firearms. I have literally seen HUNDREDS, maybe even over a thousand, of news stories from national news outlets on the one event on Newtown. On the other hand, you have to work very hard to find ANY mention of a positive event from your national news sources. Can you see the "propaganda" effect here?

December 20, 2012 at 12:04 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Please explain how the Patriot Act justifies allowing citizens to be armed with high capacity semi-automatic weapons.

December 20, 2012 at 12:06 p.m.
conservative said...

alprova, regarding your "since you condemn others to hell just as assuredly one does when they follow his name with the "D" word."

Again, you greatly err. I have no such power or authority. That power and authority belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have never even used the word "hell" here to you are anyone else that I am aware of.

You see alprova it is the word of God that convicts you not myself. You think you are hurting me but you are not. Your battle is with the word of God.

For the word of God is quick , and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

December 20, 2012 at 12:07 p.m.
Maximus said...

I knew that the "inspired by God" post would set some people off. The U.S. Constitution is not perfect but along with the Holy Bible is one of the greatest documents mankind has ever known. Remember, the U.S. Constitution is a positive document created by our forefathers, who were inspired by God to create a country for the people, and by the people without excess government infringement. Obama and others mostly in his party and administration do not like this impairment of their central planning statist goals for the country. The U.S. Constitution stands in Barry's way and with every opportunity he plans to subvert it. Similar, to the Ten Commandments posted prominently in the U.S. Supreme Court Building in Washington, D.C. the Constitution is not a list of suggestions or so called living document subject to change. The U.S. Constitution is eternal and my 2nd. Ammendment Rights to bear arms shall not be infringed upon.

December 20, 2012 at 12:18 p.m.
Maximus said...

NRA Memberships have increased by 8,000 per day since the Sandy Hook School murder of defenseless women and children.

December 20, 2012 at 12:21 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

The U.S. Constitution stands in Barry's way and with every opportunity he plans to subvert it.

evidence, please

The U.S. Constitution is eternal and my 2nd. Ammendment Rights to bear arms shall not be infringed upon.

So, if you want to buy a nuclear warhead you should be allowed?

December 20, 2012 at 12:27 p.m.
MTJohn said...

conservative said...shoe, the meaning of that is murder. Now you know

Conservative - I'm impressed. I did not realize that you were fluent in the language which Moses spoke.

December 20, 2012 at 12:33 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, I'm not.

Exodus 20:12-14 English Standard Version (ESV) 12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder

14 “You shall not commit adultery. Footnotes:

Exodus 20:13 The Hebrew word also covers causing human death through carelessness or negligence

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:12-14&version=ESV

December 20, 2012 at 12:41 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "Please explain how the Patriot Act justifies allowing citizens to be armed with high capacity semi-automatic weapons."

Someone might think that letting federal law enforcement officers write their own search warrants, over a quarter of a million of them, in the name of fighting terrorism is a sign that we are living in a police state. When they also note that only a couple of actual "terrorism" convictions have resulted from those self written search warrants they might become even more concerned. When told that people who have been served one of these search warrants will be convicted of a felony if they tell anyone they were served they will KNOW we live in a police state and our Constitutional freedoms are close to being completely obliterated. All in the name of protecting us from terrorists that are here because our government provokes them in their own country.

It reminds me of the topic at hand.

December 20, 2012 at 12:46 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So where would you draw the line, BRP? Bazookas?, RPG's? Tanks?nukes? If the goal is to be better armed than the government, you need to allow citizens to own Cobras. F-18's. Armored Personnel carriers. Anti-personnel mines. Is that what you are saying?

December 20, 2012 at 12:48 p.m.
shoe_chucker said...

My KJV says thou shalt not kill. Maybe the word of God is infallible but the words inserted by man are. You are a sick puppy con. Belching the "word of God" and calling for the death of your brother at the same time. If Lanza had survived would you offer him the same forgiveness given to Dr. Deathjarlais in jasper?

December 20, 2012 at 12:50 p.m.
MTJohn said...

I know you are not, Conservative. Neither are the Biblical scholars who prepared the modern translations. I give them all credit for doing their best, but they still do not agree. Most also are aware of the limits of their understanding.

Note from your post that the scholars who compiled the ESV footnoted the word in question were aware that "murder" either is not the correct interpretation or that the interpretation is different from the way we use that word in modern English. The compilers of the NRSV also used the word, "murder" and footnoted it. The compilers of the RSV used "kill", without footnote, as did the compilers of the KJV.

So, which translation is correct? The honest answer is that we do not know, for certain.

As to how all of this relates to the question of capital punishment, I think we bear false witness to the Gospel when we suggest that it is commanded by Scripture. Scripture also reminds us that vengeance is God's, not ours. Humans are incapable of administering capital punishment purely on the basis of justice, without corrupting our intentions with a desire for vengeance. Moreover, while "beyond a reasonable doubt" might be an adequate standard for incarcerating a person, it is not sufficient to ensure that we never execute an individual person.

Until we know for certain that capital punishment is a matter of justice only, and that we will never execute innocent people, it doesn't matter what word we put in that footnoted spot. Capital punishment is in violation of the commandment against killing/murdering.

December 20, 2012 at 12:58 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "So where would you draw the line, BRP? Bazookas?, RPG's? Tanks?nukes? If the goal is to be better armed than the government, you need to allow citizens to own Cobras. F-18's. Armored Personnel carriers. Anti-personnel mines. Is that what you are saying?"

I believe it is already within my rights to own an Armoured Personnel Carrier or a Tank. Why can't I own an M4?

December 20, 2012 at 12:59 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So your right to own whatever weapon you want (in case you have to fight your own government, something that has not happened without due cause, as in the Waco incident) supersedes the rights of children to go to school without fearing an intruder that has the weaponry to kill dozens of them in a matter of a few seconds. (Which HAS happened) Crazy country we live in.

Of course, Timothy McVeigh used fuel oil and ammonium nitrate, not guns. I suppose you support the freedom to buy unlimited quantities of these too, just in case our government gets uppity.

December 20, 2012 at 1:06 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "So your right to own whatever weapon you want (in case you have to fight your own government, something that has not happened without due cause,as in the Waco incident"

How do you know that the government had due cause in the Waco incident? Because the government tells you so? Do you believe the government did not set the fires that killed all of those children?

December 20, 2012 at 1:13 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You can believe what you like, BRP. Clearly you are a patriot in search of a conspiracy. I am pretty confident that David Koresh intended to die and take all his followers with him.

December 20, 2012 at 1:16 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "You can believe what you like, BRP. Clearly you are a patriot in search of a conspiracy. I am pretty confident that David Koresh intended to die and take all his followers with him."

OK, based on who's version of the story? I am not saying I have the answers but I do recognise that we are not in a position to know the absolute truth and that one side has almost complete control of the narrative.

December 20, 2012 at 1:20 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Again, specifically, do you believe that agents of the government did not set the fires that led to the deaths of those children?

December 20, 2012 at 1:23 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

If you can offer up a plausible plan to reduce the chances of an Adam Lanza getting his hands on weapons of mass destruction and using them on innocents, I am ready to hear it. I think I've already shown that a cop with a handgun on the other side of the building cannot intervene quickly enough, and perps with a death wish will not be deterred by their potential demise. I am sure that most teachers will not want equivalent weapons in their classrooms (they'd have to carry them-these teachers would not have had time to unlock a cabinet and get it, and what kindergarten teacher wants to have a weapon tucked in their waistbands while on the floor reading to 5 year olds?) Sorry, but your notion that David Koresh could have possibly been an innocent victim of some government conspiracy does not convince me that we all need this kind of armament to protect us from the FBI.

And no, for the record, I believe that Koresh started those fires. I don't have any more evidence than you do to support that belief.

Gotta take a break. Would be interested to know, if you were "king", what you would do if not limit access to these weapons.

December 20, 2012 at 1:27 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, again you don't believe Scripture, your problem is UNBELIEF.

There are several passages of Scripture that ordain capital punishment.

For instance, Read mtnman 1 at 9:42 and please believe the word of God.

December 20, 2012 at 1:31 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Geez, MTJohn, I'm sorry if I set conservative on you again. He is relentless.

December 20, 2012 at 1:32 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "I think I've already shown that a cop with a handgun on the other side of the building cannot intervene quickly enough"

You have not. The mere presence of a cop with a handgun would have deterred the coward from carrying through with this plan. He had no interest in becoming the story about how a school invader was gunned down by a police officer, a failure in life, a failure in death. He wanted a nice pool of undefended victims.

December 20, 2012 at 1:33 p.m.
conservative said...

alprova, regarding your "can you point to any source that proves that having any assault weapon, capable of dispensing more than let's say...thirty rounds, has actually saved lives, in that one was used for protection?"

I can think of many ways to answer that and since I have made my money for the day, I will.

  1. So, what does that have to do with the price of eggs in China? Each individual has the right to decide how much ammo he might need to protect his family and himself. Even cowboy pictures have taught that for may have run out of bullets in a gunfight.

  2. Every gun and rifle is an assault weapon. I even have an assault weapon in a corner, it looks like a baseball bat.

  3. A true assault rifle is automatic and capable of attaching a bayonet. The politicians, mostly Demoncrats used the term "assault" to apply to rifles that are semi-automatic and have the look of a real assault rifle. They exploited the ignorance of their sheep. One could put plastic around a 22 rifle to make it look like a real assault rifle and it would make no difference how it shot or the damage it could do. I've seen squirt (water) guns that looked like an AR 15.

  4. I wouldn't own a rife that that would only dispense 30 rounds. I have a 22 capable of dispensing thousands of rounds. I just reload.

  5. If you meant 30 rounds at one time, I would ask you, who made you judge and jury on capacity?

  6. Any clip can be changed quickly and clips that say hold 10 rounds could be stacked together to increase capacity. There are probably millions of high capacity clips already in possession of Americans and clips, ammo, and "assault" rifles are flying off the shelves. Thank Owebama and Liberals.

  7. I have no idea how many lives they have saved but 1(one) would justify them for me.

You might also read BRP's comments to further help you.

December 20, 2012 at 1:51 p.m.
jesse said...

Con man has a "GOD" button!

If you punch it it sets him off for a least 3 days!

December 20, 2012 at 1:52 p.m.
MTJohn said...

BigRidgePatriot said...It is too bad that we do not hear about the lawful use of firearms that saves lives and stops crime on a routine basis. If we heard balanced reporting every citizen would know that the benefits of a well armed citizen are real.

BRP - do you suppose that is the case because the media refuses to report such incidents? Or, might it be that the routine occurrenc of civilians lawfully using firearms to prevent crime is a figment of gunowners' imaginations?

Two footnotes: 1. We have one "fair and balanced" 24-hour news channel. For some reason, they have not reported the benefits of a well-armed citizenry, either. 2. There was a recent incident in which an armed citizen used a lawful concealed weapon to prevent what he thought was a crime and that incident has receive lots of press.

December 20, 2012 at 1:52 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

MTJohn said... "do you suppose that is the case because the media refuses to report such incidents? Or, might it be that the routine occurrenc of civilians lawfully using firearms to prevent crime is a figment of gunowners' imaginations?"

Of those two choices, I'll take the former. If I wanted to take the time I could continue to post more stories. MTJohn, if you go turn on any national news network right now I bet you will be subjected to yet another recycling of the Newtown story within a few minutes. Did you ever hear ONE of the stories I posted earlier, before today?

December 20, 2012 at 1:58 p.m.
miraweb said...

Yeah, we know just how much the media hates those hometown hero stories. Just can't those on the news, can you.

December 20, 2012 at 2 p.m.
MTJohn said...

conservative said...MTJohn, again you don't believe Scripture, your problem is UNBELIEF.

Conservative - I believe that Scripture is God's inspired Word. I do not believe that your interpretations of Scripture are either inerrant or infallible.

conservative said...There are several passages of Scripture that ordain capital punishment.

I know. But, those passages do not refute what I said about confusing justice and vengeance or the possibility of executing innocents.

December 20, 2012 at 2:03 p.m.
MTJohn said...

BigRidgePatriot said...Of those two choices, I'll take the former.

I'm sure you would. That doesn't mean that it is the correct choice.

BigRidgePatriot said......if you go turn on any national news network right now I bet you will be subjected to yet another recycling of the Newtown story within a few minutes.

I'm impressed with your prescience.

December 20, 2012 at 2:11 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

The stories abound, you just do not see them in the national media.

39-year-old Pardeep Singh, was working behind the counter at the time and tried to give the suspect what he wanted. They said Pardeep Singh tried to calm Honyoust, telling him it was OK and that there was no problem, Honyoust began acting irrationally, co-owner Happy Singh told 24 Hour News 8 at that time. Honyoust was aggressive and started running toward the entrance of the counter as if he were going to go back into the register area. "He tried to run around and he had a knife and he tried to attack," said Happy Singh. That is when Pardeep pulled his gun and shot at Honyoust, striking him at least once in the head."

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/kalamazoo_and_battle_creek/suspect-shot-in-store-robbery-dies

December 20, 2012 at 2:16 p.m.
Rebus said...

Parents may have a new option when it comes to protecting their children while at school in the wake of the Connecticut school shootings. A Salt Lake City, Utah, company called Amendment II is offering a “Ballistic Backpack” lined with carbon nanotube armor sewn into the rear of the pack and comes in boys, girls, and teen/young adult models.

HOLY MOLY

December 20, 2012 at 2:19 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Con-man, not long ago I cited several verses in the Bible where your God calls for stoning adulterers, killing children who disobey and disrespect their parents, and even putting to death anyone who works on the Sabbath. I asked you where you stood regarding those laws handed down by your God. I never got a response from you. If your Bible is the infallible word of God, then those laws are just as important as any others. Yet you seem to select the ones that suit you and completely ignore the rest. You're not a man of God, you're a self-righteous, despicable CHERRY PICKER, con-man. Either obey ALL of God's laws or shut up about your Bible being the inerrant word of God. You are one sick, pathetic little man.

December 20, 2012 at 2:27 p.m.
tipper said...

This needs a three-prong approach: Eliminating the sale of assualt guns and large clip magazines coupled with background checks prior to gun show and private sales. Secondly, a re-institution of mental health facilities since more than 400 facilities around the nation have been closed due to budget cuts. And third, the film, television, and computer game industries need to take a hard look at their programming that desensitizes violence and killing. Count the number of films, TV shows, and games that focus on someone shooting another person--real or animated--with guns and how commonplace it is.

December 20, 2012 at 2:29 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Problem solved,

Have night shift officers leave their squad cars parked at the local school. Have armed officers move from school to school to check in between giving citizens tickets for driving 56 mph in a 45 mph zone. The officers do not have to be there full time, just be there unpredictably.

The coward killers will wet themselves and go home when they see a squad car parked in the school parking lot.

December 20, 2012 at 2:48 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

These things never happen, just a figment of my imagination...

The owner of a southwest Houston cell phone store shot a suspected robber who later died at a hospital in Pearland, police said. The store owner confronted an armed robber shortly after 6 p.m. Wednesday inside the business along the 1400 block of the South Loop near Fannin, police said. "He (store owner) displays his weapon, and fires at the suspect, striking him at least twice," said Christopher Hassig, with the Houston police homicide division. The wounded robber ran to a waiting car and fled. The robber went to a hospital in Pearland where he died. The getaway driver and car were still at the hospital when police arrived to investigate the death. The driver is being questioned and could face aggravated robbery charges, police said. The owner and an employee were the only people inside the store at the time of the shooting. Neither were injured.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/HPD-Store-owner-fatally-shoots-robber-4038805.php

December 20, 2012 at 2:56 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

How is this possible, all of these citizens successfully defending themselves with a firearm? This is not part of the narrative that is spoon fed to us daily by the powers that be...

Ceres police said David Lucas, 32, stole a car in the 800 block of Central Avenue about 2:30 p.m. Monday. Less than 15 minutes later, while driving nearby in a quiet neighborhood in the 2300 block of Millcreek Drive, Lucas saw a 69-year-old man working in his garage, said department spokeswoman Carissa Higginbotham. Lucas reportedly walked up to the homeowner and tried to rob him at knife point. But the victim managed to get to the .38-caliber handgun he had stashed in his garage. The man shot Lucas once; then the two struggled briefly over the gun, police said. The homeowner regained control of the weapon and shot the suspect again. Bleeding from wounds to the arm and the buttocks, Lucas ran across the street and entered a neighbor's back yard, where officers found him.

http://www.modbee.com/2012/11/05/2443286/homeowner-shoots-intruder-ceres.html

December 20, 2012 at 3:04 p.m.
Walden said...

dudes_an_idiot said "Nice? That would be "really nice" for you? What would be "awesome" for you, a small grenade stuck into a stab wound in his stomach which blows his flesh across the faces of the victims, who then partake in some kind of conservative blood orgy which somehow honors Jesus? LOL I think you've got a spring loose in your banana clip."

You either completely misunderstood my comment, or you would rather be mowed down by a mass shooter than defended by a law-abiding citizen authorized to carry a concealed weapon.

December 20, 2012 at 3:11 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Dogs and guns, can't live without them...

A 63-year-old woman suffering from congestive heart failure and arthritis was asleep at home in Bessemer, Ala. when an armed intruder came into her bedroom. The home invader demanded that the woman hand over money and jewelry, and when she didn’t comply, he drew a keyhole saw and cut her on her stomach and arm. Eventually, one of the woman’s seven dogs alerted a guest staying at the home to the commotion. The guest distracted the criminal long enough for the woman to retrieve a .44-caliber revolver and shoot the criminal, who fled the scene. Police captured the home invader a short time later after he sought treatment at a local hospital. Following the shooting, the woman told local media, “I have a family to protect and that’s what I did. I protected me and mine.” The armed citizen also noted that she has been a gun owner for more than 30 years and that “women are better with guns.”

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2012/10/bessemer_woman_who_shot_intrud.html

December 20, 2012 at 3:18 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

An armed citizen comes to the aid of another? Does this really happen?

A man who was shot twice by a customer during an alleged robbery attempt has a criminal record and could be connected to similar weekend crimes in the city. Lajuane M. White, 24, was listed in critical condition Monday at Miami Valley Hospital, where he was taken to by Careflight medical helicopter Sunday night following a shooting at Domino’s, 1756 South Limestone St. According to Springfield police, White displayed a handgun as he tried to rob a pizza delivery driver in the restaurant parking lot. Another Domino’s employee, who was off duty and identified himself as a customer that night, 24-year-old Stephen P. Carroll, intervened in the attempted robbery. Witnesses told police that Carroll warned White to put the weapon down and then shot the suspect twice in the stomach after White pointed a gun at him, according to the police report.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/news/crime-law/customer-shoots-would-be-armed-robber/nSDP8/

December 20, 2012 at 3:25 p.m.
mtngrl said...

BRP, not one of those stories you are posting would be affected by any regulations actually being discussed. Find one where it took over 30 rounds without reloading to stop someone in self defense.

No one is coming to take anyone's guns. The 2nd amendment is not under threat by any intelligent discussion of regulations. That amendment actually contains the words "well regulated", so how can any 2nd amendment supporter be against regulation? The only question is what those should be.

December 20, 2012 at 3:39 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

"If your bible is the infallible word of God, then those laws are just as important as any others. Yet you seem to select the ones that suit you and completely ignore the rest. --Rickaroo"

Rickaroo, the sanctimonious ones are no different than W.C. Fields who, when asked about reading the bible, stated he was "looking for loopholes." Pick out a few verses that suit your cause, totally ignore the verses that cramp your style...Congratulations, you are now a member of the proud and pious.

A couple of years ago when that whole prayer before football games debate started anew at Lakeview-Fort Oglethorpe, I stated that I could not understand why any Christian would want to pray publicly. The lady I was conversing with, a pious one in her own right, asked me to explain myself. I began to cite Matthew Chapter 6 verses 5-15. She cut me off and said "Oh don't throw that at me!" What a fool I was, thinking that folks who wear their love for the bible on their sleeve would actually be interested in the words contained within.

December 20, 2012 at 4:28 p.m.
Sailorman said...

mtngrl

"That amendment actually contains the words "well regulated", so how can any 2nd amendment supporter be against regulation?"

A common misconception. "Well regulated" meant disciplined and well trained in the vernacular of the time.

"The reference to a "well regulated" militia, probably conjures up a connotation at odds with the meaning intended by the Framers. In today's English, the term "well regulated" probably implies heavy and intense government regulation. However, that conclusion is erroneous."

Read more at http://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm

December 20, 2012 at 4:33 p.m.
dougmusn said...

Some comments:

Conservatives: Thank you for your stories of guns killing attackers in the hands of citizens. However, the plural of anecdote is not data. Your stories tell us it is POSSIBLE for a gun to be beneficial but it does not prove ALL guns are beneficial. The national statistics with about 30,000 gun deaths annually in homicides and suicides are real and unarguable.

Now, as far as the guns providing us the ability to rise up against a tyrannical government...Government is clearly larger than one citizen or group of citizens. We have the examples of Ruby Ridge and the Branch Dividians in Waco to consider. Without a unifying organization and an adequate logistic back end, citizen uprisings will not change things. Even our civil war showed the inability of a very large group of citizens to successfully separate themselves when the industrialized north had a much larger footprint.

December 20, 2012 at 5:25 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

dougmusn said... "it is POSSIBLE for a gun to be beneficial but it does not prove ALL guns are beneficial."

Wow, and I suppose by that logic if you not beneficial to me I can have you banned?

December 20, 2012 at 5:29 p.m.
tderng said...

Well,after reading all these arguments by both sides I believe I shall weigh in with my opinion. The second amendment wasn't enacted so that citizens could hunt and target practice. It was introduced to make sure that these selfsame citizens could protect themselves from an oppressive tyrannical government. The musket was the weapon that was the height of firearm technology at the time. Used by the government troops at the time. Fast forward to today. The technology of firearms has increased. The intent of the 2nd Amendment has not changed. The citizens cannot protect themselves from a government with weaponry from 250 years ago. One reason,perhaps,that a tyrannical takeover of the U.S. hasn't happened is because of this very amendment. As Benjamin Franklin once said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

For those who believe that the framers of the constitution couldn't envision today's weapons and believe that that it should apply only to muskets must also believe that the same could be said about the freedom of the press. So should the government have the right to stifle free speech on the radio,tv,and the internet? After all they couldn't have envisioned these advances of technology. So do you believe that the freedom of the press should only be given to the written word since that was the only press at the time?

December 20, 2012 at 5:41 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Sailorman said...A common misconception. "Well regulated" meant disciplined and well trained in the vernacular of the time.

Sailorman - thanks for clarifying the Second Amendment language. It makes resolution of this whole question very easy. Let us put in statute definitions for "disciplined" and "well trained"; issue civilian firearms licenses to those who qualify according to those definitions; and, require a civilian firearms license as a pre-requisite for the lawful purchase of any firearm.

December 20, 2012 at 5:48 p.m.
tderng said...

dougmusn said...Now, as far as the guns providing us the ability to rise up against a tyrannical government...Government is clearly larger than one citizen or group of citizens. We have the examples of Ruby Ridge and the Branch Dividians in Waco to consider. Without a unifying organization and an adequate logistic back end, citizen uprisings will not change things. Even our civil war showed the inability of a very large group of citizens to successfully separate themselves when the industrialized north had a much larger footprint.

Tell that to Muammar Gaddafi and Bashir Assad. The latter whom is about to be ousted even with much superior firepower and control of the skies.

December 20, 2012 at 5:51 p.m.
dougmusn said...

@BRP: dougmusn said... "it is POSSIBLE for a gun to be beneficial but it does not prove ALL guns are beneficial."

Wow, and I suppose by that logic if you not beneficial to me I can have you banned?

I have not suggested (and would not suggest) banning all guns. The decision to have a gun is always a risk-benefit analysis. In the words of Spiderman "with great power comes great responsibility". Greater access to semi-automatic and automatic weapons, high-capacity magazines and permitting the gun show loophole to survive has costs. Glorifying the gun in 'entertainment' venues has costs. Those costs include more deaths of our family members than strangers. Adam Lanza would have had much more trouble killing his mother if she had kept the guns she loved adequately locked up.

December 20, 2012 at 5:58 p.m.
dude_abides said...

sailorsam told mtngrl... "The reference to a "well regulated" militia, probably conjures up a connotation at odds with the meaning intended by the Framers. In today's English, the term "well regulated" probably implies heavy and intense government regulation. However, that conclusion is erroneous."

Wow! That clears up so much. Words had different definitions all those years ago! Next you'll tell us emancipation meant 'to free from freedom.' Did militia mean food-and-ammo-hording-paranoid-racist-anti-government bearded white lardasses?

December 20, 2012 at 6:04 p.m.
dude_abides said...

tu_arms! said... "It’s very simple to place locks on all secondary doors that allows those inside to exit but those outside to be blocked. Also simple to have locks on front doors that require visitors to be buzzed in by school officials that have access to video monitoring of the entrance as well as reinforced front doors with metal detectors on the exterior side."

You forgot to mention the inexpensive locks on the sidewalk that leads to the inexpensive armored school buses. Relieved, also, to find out that bullets cannot penetrate glass windows.

December 20, 2012 at 6:14 p.m.
tderng said...

dude_abides said..Did militia mean food-and-ammo-hording-paranoid-racist-anti-government bearded white lardasses?

No,but it didn't mean gun and ammo hoarding dope dealing racist black gangster lardasses either.

December 20, 2012 at 6:31 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, regarding your "I do not believe that your interpretations of Scripture are either inerrant or infallible"

Well, glad to hear that, myself and everyone else who knows me have always known that. I sure hope you didn't spend a lot of time coming to that conclusion.

Regarding your "I know. But, those passages do not refute what I said about confusing justice and vengeance or the possibility of executing innocents."

I don't have any idea what that is about, you probably meant that comment for someone else.

December 20, 2012 at 6:47 p.m.
miraweb said...

Yeah, It's Utah Again


Tip for truants - hanging out in a stairwell wearing a ski mask could attract some attention.


Four high school students are facing suspensions and possible further discipline from the Granite School District after they were found carrying knives and brass knuckles on campus.

On Wednesday, administrators at Cyprus High School, 8623 W. 3000 South, spotted four male students skipping class in the stairwell of the school. When school officials searched the truant boys, they found three of them had pocketknives and one had brass knuckles, said Granite School District spokesman Ben Horsley. One of the boys, for an unknown reason, was wearing a ski mask.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865569188/Students-suspended-after-police-say-they-brought-knives-to-school.html

December 20, 2012 at 6:56 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Dude

Thank you for the compliment but I didn't originate that. If you had bothered to look at the reference, you would know where it came and the cites that accompany it. Feel free to look it up for yourself.

If snark is the best you can do, oh well.

December 20, 2012 at 7:04 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

tu_arms! said... "It’s very simple to place locks on all secondary doors that allows those inside to exit but those outside to be blocked. Also simple to have locks on front doors that require visitors to be buzzed in by school officials that have access to video monitoring of the entrance as well as reinforced front doors with metal detectors on the exterior side."

initial reports had this shooter breaking in through a window. Anyone hear an update? This kid, though disturbed, wasn't stupid, and he knew the school.

December 20, 2012 at 7:12 p.m.
MTJohn said...

tderng said...dude_abides said..Did militia mean food-and-ammo-hording-paranoid-racist-anti-government bearded white lardasses?

No,but it didn't mean gun and ammo hoarding dope dealing racist black gangster lardasses either.

The latter should not have guns. Why should the former?

December 20, 2012 at 7:14 p.m.
dude_abides said...

popeye said... "dude, ..."

I guess I am a snarkaholic, but that website has a petition to sign, as well as an ad for CCTV surveillance systems. "Paranoia on Parade"

December 20, 2012 at 7:24 p.m.
Maximus said...

Ike...with your typical liberal, irrational, emotional out cries....."so if you want a nuke...bla...bla"...you have to be a big, big fan of "Welfare Ho" Nancy Pelosi. Just saw her on FOX whining about Meals On Meals being defunded. Biatch has more plastic on her body than hasbro has plastic toys. Emotional, irrational, hog wash and yes we will keep our semi-automatic weapons. The PEOPLE are not with Barry on this one besides he shifted the issue over to a "task force" and hopped on AF1 to Hawaii. I heard JayZ and TI were on board. Think they will be protected by the Secret Service and their P90 FULL AUTOMATIC WEAPONS ALONG WITH BARRY, MICHELLE, AND THE GIRLS? Hey, libs Barry could give a rats behind about you....He Be Pimpin whiles youz clippin foood stamps. Aight!

December 20, 2012 at 7:24 p.m.
MTJohn said...

conservative said...Well, glad to hear that, myself and everyone else who knows me have always known that. I sure hope you didn't spend a lot of time coming to that conclusion.

Thanks for the concern. It didn't take long at all.

conservative said...Regarding your "I know. But, those passages do not refute what I said about confusing justice and vengeance or the possibility of executing innocents." I don't have any idea what that is about, you probably meant that comment for someone else comment for someone else

I meant it for you. Go back and read my post and your post to which I had responded. You suggested that capital punishment may be commanded by Scripture. But, even if your understanding of those passages is correct, dispensing capital punishment in a manner that complies with all of Scripture would compel us to ensure that the desire for justice is not compromised by the desire for revenge. Scripture would compel us to ensure that capital punishment is dispensed fairly, within a system that guarantees equal justice for all. Scripture would compel us to ensure that we do not execute innocents. Our criminal justice system does not measure up to those standards. Thus, you can cite passages, out of context, to suggest that Scripture "ordains" capital punishment. Even so, Scripture does not ordain capital punishment as we currently practice capital punishment in this country.

December 20, 2012 at 7:30 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Maximus fails to see the divine comedy of his impotent thrashing about, using middle school racist humor to attack Obama, while the most powerful man on the planet makes history, and will never have heard of this belching degenerate.

December 20, 2012 at 7:35 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Dude

Lectlaw is a legal research site. Not surprising you think it's paranoia. There are many others you might flook at if you actually had any real interest in the topic. I have to thank you for reminding why I haven't been here in nearly a year. What a waste of time.

Hope everyone has a great holiday of whatever variety you celebrate

December 20, 2012 at 8:01 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Aye, aye Cap'n Bligh, topsails and mainsails!

December 20, 2012 at 8:18 p.m.
Easy123 said...

dude_,

It's full-blown racism with Maximus.

Exhibit A:


Maximus said...

"We B Killn atz least thirty biatches per beatz nigga!"

December 19, 2012 at 9:48 a.m.


December 20, 2012 at 8:20 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ike...with your typical liberal, irrational, emotional out cries

Please be specific about how I was irrational, Maxie/Francis. If you are going to make accusations you should back them up.

December 20, 2012 at 8:32 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, I will explain to you tomorrow in minute detail about Exodus 20:13.

I will explain to you how "Thou shalt not kill" means murder in Exodus 20:13.

I will explain to you the meaning of the Hebrew word translated "kill" in the King James.

I will explain to you how those who have no knowledge of the Bible are tricked into believing "Thou shalt not kill" means that God does not allow capital punishment.

I will explain it in such a way that even a 6 year old can understand it.

I will explain to you how one does not have to be "fluent in the language which Moses spoke" as you put it to understand the meaning of Exodus 20:13.

December 20, 2012 at 8:40 p.m.
tderng said...

MTJohn... If they are able to obtain them legally they should both have them.

My retort was to dude_abides for his racist anti-white rant.

December 20, 2012 at 8:54 p.m.
Easy123 said...

conservative,

"I will explain to you tomorrow in minute detail about Exodus 20:13."

I expect massive convolution.

"I will explain to you how "Thou shalt not kill" means murder in Exodus 20:13."

Scholars and translators hold many different interpretations of that particular word/verse. Your interpretation carries no weight.

"I will explain to you how those who have no knowledge of the Bible are tricked into believing "Thou shalt not kill" means that God does not allow capital punishment."

Many Bible scholars hold that exact belief. But I guess they have no knowledge of the Bible, right? Your arguments from authority are fallacious and dishonest. I know far more about the Bible than you and I'm an Atheist.

"I will explain it in such a way that even a 6 year old can understand it."

You absolutely will not. You are incapable of being concise, honest, or genuine in any of your posts.

"I will explain to you how one does not have to be "fluent in the language which Moses spoke" as you put it to understand the meaning of Exodus 20:13."

So you will be claiming to know something for certain that even the best Bible scholars are not unanimous on. Again, your interpretation carries no weight and is not final or correct.

December 20, 2012 at 9:12 p.m.
Easy123 said...

tderng,

"My retort was to dude_abides for his racist anti-white rant."

Seriously? LMFAO! What about dude's "rant" was anti-white or racist? Because he said the word "white"? Funny how you threw in "dope dealing" and "gangster" in your rebuttal. I didn't catch any of those racist adjectives in dude_abides post.


LET ME BREAK IT DOWN FOR YOU:

dude_abides says "white".

tderng says "dope dealing...black...gangster".

You label dude's comment racist, yet you are the only one that used racial stereotypes; dude_ didn't.

According to your own logic, what does that make your comment? LMFAO!

December 20, 2012 at 9:20 p.m.
MTJohn said...

conservative said...MTJohn, I will explain to you tomorrow in minute detail about Exodus 20:13.

Don't bother because: 1) As even you noted with the footnote when you cited the ESV before, scholars do not agree on the English equivalent word for the Hebrew. I doubt that your expertise on the subject exceeds that of those scholars who cannot agree. 2) The correct understanding of that word is irrelevant to what I said in the previous post. Even I were to accept your interpretation, our judicial system fails to measure up to permit capital punishment, as ordained by Scripture.

Let me state it again. You and I are NOT disagreeing about what Scripture has to say about the death penalty. I am talking about the inadequacies in our criminal justice system. Our system is not uniformly fair for all defendants. Vengeance continues to inform decisions to seek and to impose the death sentence. Our system has the potential to execute innocent people. Until we fix those flaws - and they are serious flaws, it does not matter whether Scripture ordains capital punishment because it does not apply to our system.

December 20, 2012 at 10:13 p.m.
tderng said...

easy123...you are welcome to your interpretation and I can have mine. I do get tired of anyone being able to say anything,no matter how vile,about a white man and it's ok. But I cannot say anything negative about a black man or I'm a racist.So Excuse me perhaps I should have said lardass"entrepreneurial African-American member of an underworld criminal organization".

December 20, 2012 at 10:14 p.m.
MTJohn said...

tderng said...If they are able to obtain them legally they should both have them.

In this case, I suspect that "IF" is an obstacle that neither can get over.

December 20, 2012 at 10:19 p.m.
Rebus said...

Much angst here.

December 20, 2012 at 10:52 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

"Our system has the potential to execute innocent people. Until we fix those flaws - and they are serious flaws, it does not matter whether Scripture ordains capital punishment because it does not apply to our system. --MTJohn"

Carlos DeLuna. Cameron Willingham. Rueben Cantu. David Spence. Gary Graham. Claude Jones. These men have all been executed by the state of Texas. In the cases of DeLuna and Willingham, we have enough evidence to believe they were completely innocent of the crimes for which they were killed. In the other mens cases, while there is not enough evidence to say they are innocent, with the evidence (or lack thereof) available today against these men there is no way a reasonable jury could find these men guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But hey, Rick Perry isn't worried so what's the fuss? In fact Rick was able to parlay the Lone Star State's blood trail into quite the applause line during a Republican Primary Debate. People who fear fictitious Obama "death panels", and rail against an overbearing government violating their "basic rights" openly cheered an elected official and his handpicked board putting people to death regardless of their guilt or innocence. Blood lust is rarely compatible with justice.

December 20, 2012 at 11:11 p.m.
Easy123 said...

tderng,

"you are welcome to your interpretation and I can have mine."

It wasn't an interpretation. I stated exactly what was said by both parties.

"I do get tired of anyone being able to say anything,no matter how vile,about a white man and it's ok."

Nothing vile was said about "white" men. dude_ was very specific in what he said. It was not a generalized statement and no racial stereotypes were used. I can see how it could be viewed as racist. But not half as much as your post.

"But I cannot say anything negative about a black man or I'm a racist."

You probably are a racist. You were highly offended about something that might be marginally racist, so you responded with a statement that was explicitly racist.

"So Excuse me perhaps I should have said lardass"entrepreneurial African-American member of an underworld criminal organization"."

It's still a racist statement. You are using racial stereotypes to refer to African-Americans. That's racism. You are very obtuse. But I expect it from someone that claims a different interpretation of factually accurate events.

However, you are welcome to your delusion.

December 20, 2012 at 11:18 p.m.
tderng said...

easy...I was responding to what I considered to be a racist comment with a racist retort.

easy said...You are using racial stereotypes to refer to African-Americans.

and dude wasn't? You gotta be kidding,right? food-and-ammo-hording-paranoid-racist-anti-government bearded white lardasses?if that's not a racial stereotype then neither is mine.Either both are racist stereotypes or neither are. Oh sorry,I forgot that it's ok for there to be a double standard if one of the parties is a white man. My bad.

What factually accurate event are you talking about?

December 21, 2012 at 12:23 a.m.
fairmon said...

Any legislation considered good or bad takes away the choices or better said takes away an increment of freedom. A lot of people are willing to give up freedom for a feeling of security even to the point of being subserviant to and dependent on governments.

December 21, 2012 at 12:26 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, here is the exchange before you chimed in.

shoe_chucker said... "Christians" support the death penalty. Who knew? If Lanza had survived and asked God for forgiveness would you still sentence him to death? Judge not etc etc. You all forgave Dr. Death in Jasper what's the difference?

conservative said... shoe, I'm sorry that you didn't know. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed : for in the image of God made he man. Genesis 9:6. Now you know

shoe_chucker said... Thou shalt not kill. I love how you pukes cherry pick the bible to suit your twisted narrative.

conservative said... shoe, the meaning of that is murder. Now you know.

Then you got silly with:

MTJohn said... conservative said...shoe, the meaning of that is murder. Now you know Conservative - I'm impressed. I did not realize that you were fluent in the language which Moses spoke.

Then you really got silly with your attempt to prove that "kill" did not mean "murder" by questioning translations and then you finished with this nonsense: "So, which translation is correct? The honest answer is that we do not know, for certain."

Focus on this and then I will start explaining to you your error.

December 21, 2012 at 7:36 a.m.
dude_abides said...

tderng... I spelled hoarding wrong, too.

tderng said... easy...I was responding to what I considered to be a racist comment with a racist retort.

easy said...You are using racial stereotypes to refer to African-Americans.

tderng said... and dude wasn't? You gotta be kidding,right?

There doesn't seem to be a single African-American reference in my post, tderng, are you feeling ofay?

December 21, 2012 at 8 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

One little fact that CNN let slip, but now seems to be stunningly well suppressed, is that the "assault rifle" was never taken into the school and all of the killings were done with the Glock and the Sig Sauer pistols.

So all of you arm chair crusaders are being manipulated by a propaganda campaign. Your gun control politicians have found an opportunity to go after those scary "assault" rifles not because one was used, but because the killer had access to one?

In the end, your proposed "assault weapon" ban would not have saved a single soul in Newtown.

December 21, 2012 at 8:34 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

GameOn said...

A stunning testimony, repeated here for anyone who dares hear the truth.

December 21, 2012 at 8:45 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Lanza was found dead next to three guns, a semi-automatic .223-caliber Bushmaster rifle and two pistols made by Glock and Sig Sauer, a law enforcement source told CNN. All belonged to his mother. Carver, who performed autopsies on seven of the victims, said the wounds he knew about were caused by a "long weapon." Asked by a reporter whether the rifle was the primary weapon, he responded, "Yes."

So the coroner is in on the big "let's blame an assault weapon for the killings" conspiracy too, BRP? So you're saying EVERY policeman and EMT and teacher and reporter and parent is suppressing the truth in this murder investigation for political purposes? Not ONE of them owns, or believes in the right to own, an assault rifle? To hear you talk, the only intelligent, normal person in the town is the woman who bought these weapons and went shooting with her maniac son and his brother.

December 21, 2012 at 8:52 a.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "One little fact that CNN let slip, but now seems to be stunningly well suppressed, is that the "assault rifle" was never taken into the school and all of the killings were done with the Glock and the Sig Sauer pistols."

Initial reports went back and forth about where the Bushmaster was found. One day it was used. The next, it was found in the trunk of his mother's car at the school.

As the dust has settled, the Bushmaster .223 appears to have been used to kill most of the victims at Sandy Hook Elementary.

I read the other day that another, larger weapon with a drum clip was what was found in the trunk of the car.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/connecticut-school-shooting-adam-lanza-mother-visited-gun/story?id=17992396#.UNRqPyCdfK0

December 21, 2012 at 9 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Oh, I just about forgot.......

The country of Germany had my video slide show blocked from them by the Universal Music Group. Viewers in Germany would get a message: 'This video is not available in your country'. I didn't like that because I used a remix (Fair Use Authorized, i thought) of a Moody Blues song, 'Say It With Love'. So, I have found music that works with my video, and, which meets all intellectual copyright guidelines for the same. Please view this video regarding the wonderful service great newspapers like The Chattanooga Times Free Press provides for all of us. kwo

http://youtu.be/oqt2G9ywa2s

December 21, 2012 at 9:05 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, I will begin with something almost everyone can agree on. What is murder? Well, murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of another. When someone in Chattanooga walks up and kills another with a gun or knife, they have committed a murder, because it is UNLAWFUL.

Here is a definition:

Webster dictionary : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

Take some time and ponder that.

December 21, 2012 at 9:29 a.m.
mtngrl said...

Thanks conservative. So by that definition abortion is not murder either since it is legal.

December 21, 2012 at 10:13 a.m.
degage said...

When people start claiming racism they have run out with anything impotant to say. Racism is the go to.

December 21, 2012 at 10:31 a.m.
tderng said...

dude...sorry I forgot that it's only racist if it comes from a white man and its about a black man. It's ok if it's from a black man about a white man.I keep forgetting about the double standard.I just keep assuming that racist remarks can go both ways.From now on I will try to keep silent when someone disparages a white person and uses stereotyping against white people.I'll try to help out.

HEY WHITE PEOPLE OUT THERE...PLEASE REFRAIN FROM REPLYING TO ANY POSTS THAT DISPLAY WHITE PEOPLE IN A NEGATIVE WAY.YOU MUST SIMPLY TAKE IT AND TURN THE OTHER CHEEK.OTHERS MAY STEREOTYPE US WHITE FOLK BUT,DON'T YOU DARE TO DEFEND YOURSELF OR RETORT BACK IN KIND!!!KEEP IN MIND THE DOUBLE STANDARD THAT IS IN PLACE.

December 21, 2012 at 10:55 a.m.
Rebus said...

Dégage: Exactly. Seems to be a trendy thing to do.

December 21, 2012 at 10:55 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, Now, that person in Chattanooga who walked up to someone and UNLAWFULLY killed that person will most likely be charged with murder because there is/are laws against such unjust killings. This UNLAWFUL killing is murder. If the state of Tennessee after a trial sentences that killer/murderer to death and carries out the sentence, it is not called murder because the killer/murderer violated the law against taking the life of another.

Take some time and ponder that.

December 21, 2012 at 11:10 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

Con-man,it is you who needs to take some time and poner what mtngrl said: "So by that definition abortion is not murder either since it is legal." You still have not responded to it. Considering how you view abortion (as murder) and have said so repeatedly, you backed yourself into a corner and mtngrl caught you on it.

December 21, 2012 at 11:42 a.m.
jesse said...

tderng!

Keep in mind that self righteousness ain't JUST about religion,it can be about almost anything when someone holds their opinion as the one TRUE way! They are the foamin at the mouth name callers and nasty asses on here that are not insightful enough to realize what they are!

December 21, 2012 at 11:42 a.m.
GameOn said...

BRP... I have watched that video numerous times just for the fun of watching her go off on Congress.

December 21, 2012 at 11:45 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, God laid down the law to Noah and his descendents in Genesis 9:6 KJV

"Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man."

God demanded that a killer/murderer be put to death. This is the death penalty for the UNLAWFUL killing of another.

Later, God laid down the law to Israel in Exodus 21:12 KJV

"He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."

Again, God demanded that a killer/murderer be put to death. This is the death penalty for the UNLAWFUL killing of another.

Take some time and ponder that.

December 21, 2012 at 12:19 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

GameOn said... "I have watched that video numerous times just for the fun of watching her go off on Congress."

Me too!

December 21, 2012 at 12:28 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Speaking of laws, such as those regarding murder, theft, etc.... those laws certainly don't prevent people from killing or stealing but I don't think anyone would advocate dispensing with the laws just because they are not 100% effective. Certainly a ban on military style assault weapons and clips would not prevent more mass killings either, but if enforced rigidly it could at least reduce the number of those incidents.

I know it would be distasteful to those adolescent minded gun freaks who are so in love with their macho man-toys that they practically orgasm at the mere sight of an AK-47 or AR-15, but most sane and peace-loving people see weapons like that as nothing but ugly tools of death and destruction that have no business being on the open market. You can cry "second amendment" 'til you're blue in the face and talk about your "rights" to own whatever new and bigger badder weapon comes off the assembly line, but those military style weapons were made for mass killing in war and do not belong in the hands of anyone outside the military. Just because something can be manufactured doesn't mean that everybody has a right to own it. We have sacrificed the rights of our kids and the safety of all of us all because we have put the "rights" of the gun nuts first, just so they can play Rambo with their bad-ass guns, whether make-believe in their delusions of fending off the big bad government in some apocalyptic future or in real life as the psychos use them to mow down innocent school kids, movie goers, people at a political rally, or whatever.

Nobody is talking about taking away all guns or doing away with the second amendment. So stop your whining about something that's not even being talked about except from you people who are so paranoid about it. And we all acknowledge that it's not just a gun problem but a societal problem. But you gun lovers who say that the only answer is putting more and more guns in the hands of more and more people are not really intent on fixing the problem - you just want to come up with more ways to be able to justify playing with your guns, for which you seem to have a fascination that borders on the pathological.

December 21, 2012 at 12:44 p.m.
miraweb said...

Everybody back already from the Mayan Rapture?

December 21, 2012 at 12:45 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Oh, joy-I guess it is my turn to be the object of tu's sh!tspray today. Oh, well, share the load.

Okay, tu: I concede: all schools should have armed police (NRA's solution) and reinforced doors and windows. Ooops: school budgets are being cut these days. How are we paying for this?

December 21, 2012 at 1:11 p.m.
Maximus said...

Dude and Easy...Racist name calling. Typical Saul Elinsky Rules For Radicals tactic that destroyed the political careers of Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman, Herman Cain, and now Mitt Romney. Speaking of Herman Cain, soon to replace Atlanta's Neil Bortz, said recently that one of the saddest examples of racism to date is the fact that an overwhelming number of black voters, over 90%, voted for Obama simply because he was black. With all the rhetoric the Democrats like to throw out there regarding equality and race relations, we have made little progress with the black community. No guys, I do not see color, I see Americans. I admire Obama for his ambition and his drive to achieve his individual goals. He sets an example that many Democrats who have let the party mould them into helpless victims should follow. As for Obama's central planning, statist, progressive transformation plan for our government and our nation, as a free American that believes in liberty, I will fight him all the way. As to my references to the Rap Culture, I am exposing a really evil aspect of the current entertainment world with sarcasm, irony and humor. Do you let your under 17 year old children listen to rap music and play violent video games non-stop? I would suggest you have a family meeting and do your best to better manage or put a stop to it. A recent "Medal Of Honor" video game update had $500 million in world wide sales on the first day! That is more revenue than some life saving medications make in a year! Houston and all of America, we have a problem. Here is an idea...go out and play hide and go seek, or wiffle ball with your kids. Teach them how to compete, how to win with honor, and lose with grace. That's a life lesson way better than vegging on the couch killing people on a video game while listening to JayZ demean women and glorify killing. Did I tell ya'll that JayZ was a big, big campaigner for our Celebrity In Chief....Barry Cetera Obama.

December 21, 2012 at 1:29 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You, tu, having the balls to judge another for the content and quality of posts? That's pretty rich indeed.

I don't mind if the content of my posts are critiqued. As long as they are ACTUALLY critiqued for content. You don't seem able to do this most of the time. Instead you just spew. You have something specific, have at it.

December 21, 2012 at 1:39 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Maximus,

"Racist name calling."


tderng said...

easy...I was responding to what I considered to be a racist comment with a racist retort.

December 21, 2012 at 12:23 a.m.


Maximus said...

"We B Killn atz least thirty biatches per beatz nigga!"

December 19, 2012 at 9:48 a.m.

December 21, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

As for Obama's central planning, statist, progressive transformation plan for our government and our nation, as a free American that believes in liberty, I will fight him all the way

Can we assume you have done the same with eight years of Bush II?

December 21, 2012 at 1:43 p.m.
Easy123 said...

degage,

How dare you not condemn the racist comments from others! If you don't condemn them then you are condoning them! You are despicable!

LMFAO! Sound familiar, hypocrite?

December 21, 2012 at 1:53 p.m.
miraweb said...

There were some very bizarre suggestions from LaPierre in his NRA speech. Apparently massive government spending and intrusive tracking of citizens is A-OK with him - if the alternative is shutting down lucrative gun sales.

LaPierre wants armed guards - like those, I suppose, that were already at Columbine and Virginia Tech. He didn't say if school buses, malls, movie theatres, and sidewalks should also have armed guards.

Reinforced entry doors make some sense, but unless you build a 20 foot cinderblock wall around every school, there is going to be a way in.

LaPierre also demanded a complete database of all mentally ill people. Most states already have reporting of severe mental illness for gun purchases but those files are useless at gun shows.

They also fail when someone else buys the gun.

The Virginia Tech shooter was already listed in one of those databases but that information didn't get to the gun seller. That is something that should be fixed.

LaPierre also wants a stop to violent movies and video games - at the same time the NRA is selling three video games of its own.

December 21, 2012 at 2:10 p.m.
Maximus said...

tu quo...If libs are not calling people racist, they are blaming Bush. As I recall, W won his war in Iraq (I know this will set people off) while Obama is "withdrawing" from Afghan. like Johnson withdrew from Vietnam. Doesn't withdraw mean surrender? Loser Ike and tu quoque after another four years of a foreign policy of "Benign Neglect" we will most likely be very glad when Barry is playing golf and living the lux life while we are at war again and having to pick up the pieces of our country still left from Barry's spend, spend, spend irresponsible reign of mediocrity.

December 21, 2012 at 2:22 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, Now I will go back to Exodus 20:13:

"Thou shalt not kill"

When I told shoechuker that meant murder, you being an opponent of the death penalty said to me "I did not realize that you were fluent in the language which Moses spoke."

Well, here from Strong's concordance is the Hebrew word and translations :

The Hebrew word translated "kill" from that verse in the KJV is given a number (7523) and that number refers to the word itself and its meaning:

7523 ratsach raw-tsakh' a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er).

So you see, the meaning of the word kill is murder. So then the translation could be "kill" or "murder" because UNLAWFUL killing is murder!

Take some time and ponder that.

December 21, 2012 at 2:29 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

It's a valid point, tu. There is nothing that Obama has done to "deny freedoms" that is any different than what Bush II did (which also wasn't much) This paranoia that Obama's goal is to remove the constitution and make everyone wards of the state is BS and I think you know it. If you want to be treated as an adult at this forum, stop acting like a 12 year old.

As for the NRA, it does not surprise me one bit that they tried to lay the blame elsewhere. This is a complicated issue, and removing these weapons (not ALL weapons) from the general population is only part of the solution. There is nothing to support the notion that video games have ANY impact on this issue.

The fact is this young man was troubled. His mother knew this. She promoted some of the same paranoia that has been expressed here, and hoarded supplies. She taught her troubled son how to shoot, and then left the weapons where he could get them. Despite claims of conspiracy nuts, he did not do this with handguns. The coroner said that all the deaths were the result of that rifle, and the survivors all stated that the whole event was quick. Minutes only. Too fast for law enforcement to get there.

Could he kill with a pistol? Of course. But pistols are more difficult to shoot accurately, and he would have to reload. Had teachers been armed, after the first sign of trouble they could have taken him out. But with large capacity magazines, he can kill a lot of people in a short period of time.

I have no doubt that an armed citizenry is one of the best deterrents to crime. I have no doubts that break-ins are rare in my part of the country because any criminal will assume that he will get shot if he enters an occupied house. But shooters like Lanza are not rational; nor do they operate with self-preservation in mind. An armed police officer at the school may have been a deterrent-we won't know. But that is little consolation to the 26 families for whom a weapon of mass death took away a loved one in a matter of seconds.

What I fail to understand is that people equate removing this type of weapon from the environment and tightening up registration of other weapons to keep them out of the hands of psychos with a "loss of freedom". I equate turning the public areas of our country into fortresses as a loss of freedom. I don't want to have to pass through metal detectors and police barricades to go to the movies or to shop. It's bad enough that you are practically strip searched to fly.

Now , tu, if you disagree, that's fine. BRP obviously does. But we have two choices: solve this problem or accept that it will happen again. The NRA proposes armed police and tighter security at all schools. I hope they are ready to put their millions where their mouth is; schools can't buy textbooks and test tubes right now.

December 21, 2012 at 3:01 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Con-man, being the good Christian and righteous man of God that you say you are, please tell us where you stand on the following Biblical laws. We all know how passionate you are about condemning homosexuality as you point out to us God's condemnation of it in the Old Testament. And we all know how much you believe in your Bible as the inerrant word of God. So one can only assume that all the other laws and commands of God carry just as much weight as what God says about homosexuality. Here are just a few of God's many edicts and commands. Please ponder them and tell us how you fulfill them or carry them out in your daily life:

He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord."(Deuteronomy 23:1)

Whosoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits adultery: and whosoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits adultery. (Luke 16:18)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric. (Leviticus 19:19)

Any person who curses his mother or father must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). 

People who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God. (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God should be stoned to death by the community.(Leviticus 24:14-16

If anyone, even your own family, suggests worshiping another God, kill them.(Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Anyone who works on the Sabbath is to be put to death.(Numbers 15:32-35)

Christ says that if you do not sell all that you own and distribute it to the poor you cannot be his true disciple and will not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Luke 18:22)

Christ says that unless you hate your mother, father, wife, children, brothers, and sisters enough to leave them and follow him you cannot be his true disciple. (Luke 14:26)

If the Bible is the inerrant word of God and he and his laws are absolute and unchanging, then every law or command that God has given should be just as relevant today. If not, then God is not absolute nor are his laws. We can then logically make the argument that laws are only relevant to the times and the society for which they are formulated. Furthermore, if you cling to only certain Biblical laws as being still relevant today and you ignore the others, how do you determine which ones are relevant and which are not? Either way you, you come up short. You are either a cherry picking armchair Christian who does not have the courage and conviction to follow ALL of God's commands, or your God is not absolute at all but subject to changing with the laws and morals of the day - in which case it you who are creating the type of God you want to worship and believe in and not God who is immutable and unchanging.

So please, sir, ponder these things and then get back to us and enlighten us all with more of your saintly wisdom.

December 21, 2012 at 3:40 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Conservative said; "MTJohn, Now I will go back to Exodus 20:13:

"Thou shalt not kill".

That's pretty ironic coming from a god who sent his chosen people to murder men, women, and children, rape, steal, and make slaves of the conquered.

God has a strange way of showing his love, doesn't he?

December 21, 2012 at 3:42 p.m.
GameOn said...

We all know pit bulls will kill a child or adult in the future. We need to go after the AKC, they are evil and something must be done. The AKC has too much political clout in DC.

December 21, 2012 at 3:47 p.m.
patriot1 said...

ike...Thanks to the Patriot Act, officers can come into your home, listen to private conversations, access to medical records, bank statements, all without a warrant....does that not concern you in the least?

December 21, 2012 at 3:47 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

The Patriot Act is overreach and is scary as hell, and yes it should concern us all. Same with the NDAA. And with Obama's sanctioning the use of drones. And his keeping boots on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan when we should have been out of there a long time ago. And his refusal to shut down Gitmo. You wing-nuts think every liberal is an obsequious Obama worshiping toadie but that is not the case at all. There is much that I and many other liberals do not like about Obama. But where you guys see him as an evil socialist, we see him as not nearly progressive enough - more like a moderate Republican, or at least what a moderate Republican used to be. There is no such thing as a moderate Republican any more. The GOP has sold out to the teabaggers and the Bible thumpers.

December 21, 2012 at 4:03 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Yes, I'm concerned. But not paranoid. And not willing to use this as an excuse to allow the citizens of this country access to certain kinds of weapons.

December 21, 2012 at 4:06 p.m.
Rebus said...

patriot1---It concerns moi.

December 21, 2012 at 4:31 p.m.
miraweb said...

I agree the NRA game is a pretty bad game and it is clearly targeting young children.

Remember, however, the NRA exists only to promote real weapons, not toys or games.

They have no more business promoting real weapons to young children than do cigarette makers with their products. Promoting real weapons as any kind of a virtual toy, especially to children, is decreasing the respect due all guns for safe handling.

Using games to market the NRA to young children is reprehensible. Standing up and criticizing game violence - while your own organization is still trying to break into the business - is a little insane.

Guns are real. Death is real. Injuries are real.

A blurred virtual line, especially as virtual killing begins to look more and more like the real thing, is not simply harmless fun.

December 21, 2012 at 4:54 p.m.
miraweb said...

I am a little puzzled by the folks who keep saying we have to do things in a certain order.

We can't look at school safety until we address the Patriot Act?

Come on, people - let's try a little multitasking.

December 21, 2012 at 4:58 p.m.
GameOn said...

I would much rather see my child play the NRA game vs. the other games. The NRA game is pretty tame in my opinion. Personally, I think children would be better off playing board games and spending quality time with their parent or parents. I see parents using video games for babysitters instead of spending time with them. Most Mom's today don't even talk to their kids in the car. Kids watch a video while Mom talks on the phone. It's pretty sad.

December 21, 2012 at 5:11 p.m.
mtngrl said...

So does the NRA want to censor games, movies and music now? Whatever happened to freedom and liberty?

Or are they simply trying to pass the buck and blame virtual weapons instead of actual weapons?

December 21, 2012 at 5:18 p.m.
miraweb said...

The other major gun lobby, the National Shooting Sports Foundation, has not made any statement. You can see why - their office is located only three blocks from the Newtown Village Cemetery.

http://goo.gl/maps/9AlCc

December 21, 2012 at 5:23 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Miraweb...just like they keep saying that banning or strictly regulating military style weapons of mass destruction will not completely prevent another mass shooting, so why bother with any regulations at all? And they keep saying that raising taxes on the wealthy will not erase the deficit overnight or in one fell swoop so why raise taxes at all? Their solution to practically every problem before us is simply to ignore it and throw more of the same at it. More guns in the hands of more people to take care of the mayhem and murder, and more austerity to end the recession and take care of the debt. To them, it's not government's place to legislate or solve problems. Government's only job is to roll over and let them strangle it to death in the bathtub.

December 21, 2012 at 5:25 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, Back again to Exodus 20:13, "thou shalt not kill." The crowd that opposes the death penalty has done a pretty good job of recruiting sheep to their way of thinking. One thing they have been successful at is exploiting the ignorance of their sheep by getting them to misuse the word of God, specifically God's own words "thou shalt not kill." How? By getting them to think those words mean that God doesn't want governments to put to death any person.However, I have demonstrated to you this is not so for God has often demanded the execution of murderers.

Those who misuse the words "thou shalt not kill." are either deceivers or the deceived.

MTJohn, don't be either.

Take some time and ponder that.

December 21, 2012 at 5:29 p.m.
miraweb said...

It is frustrating - especially when you see John Boehner unable to get his caucus to pass gas.

They could pass any bill tomorrow with Democratic support in the House plus 18 Republicans. Boehner just doesn't want to go there.

December 21, 2012 at 5:31 p.m.
miraweb said...

That's the nicest thing about being an adult in America. I really don't have to prove anything to anyone anymore.

If you want to fashion a case against that statement - type away. I've made my case, already, child.

December 21, 2012 at 6:21 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Although I don't agree with all of your post, I appreciate your not using your usual sophomoric sign off, tu. It feels more like conversing with an adult that I disagree with rather than a kid.

the left’s version of the NRA, the ACLU.

Hardly.

December 21, 2012 at 6:23 p.m.
miraweb said...

Boehner's No Good Very Bad Day

There is little doubt Boehner’s path forward is perilous: He can strike a deal with Obama and try to get it through the House with Democratic votes, which would further infuriate conservatives. Or, he can refuse to go back to the negotiating table and risk being blamed for letting the country fall off the fiscal cliff.

“He has to pick his poison,” said Larry Sabato, head of the University of Virginia’s Center for Politics. “It’s really one or the other.”

If Boehner agrees to a debt-reduction plan that doesn’t win “yes” votes from more than 25 percent of his GOP conference, Sabato said, “many will see this as his swan song.” Boehner could count such a deal as a major accomplishment — part of his legacy — but he would almost certainly face a leadership challenge in 2014, he predicted.

Tiberi and others acknowledged Boehner is in a weak negotiating position.

Still, Feehery and others said Boehner is not vulnerable to a challenge, in part because no one else could do any better.

“You show me a single person who could make the House do anything other than dance to the tea party tune, and I’ll send you a nice holiday gift,” Sabato said. “This caucus, under these circumstances, is ungovernable.”

http://www.newarkadvocate.com/article/20121221/NEWS01/312210036/Amid-fiscal-cliff-chaos-Boehner-says-his-grip-Speaker-s-gavel-still-firm

December 21, 2012 at 6:44 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said...

MTJohn, Back again to Exodus 20:13, "thou shalt not kill." . . . .However, I have demonstrated to you this is not so for God has often demanded the execution of murderers.""

Like all those babies God killed in the Bible? Sorry, I don't remember babies killing anyone in the Bible. Those innocent women God killed? Was that because they didn't believe in him? So God said, "Rape 'em and kill 'em?"

When God killed all those innocent people, was he mad, jealous, or having a bad hair day? All those concubines that God gave His menfolk, did the concubines have a say in it? Or was God saying,"Lay back and enjoy it or I'll burn you like a bush?" Does God like rape? He certainly gave his will for it to happen.

Where does this "God Loves You" crap come from?

December 21, 2012 at 6:50 p.m.
miraweb said...

The one bill the Congress should pass if they do nothing else is extending long-term unemployment benefits.

40% of the unemployed rely on those checks and January is a truly bad time to have nothing coming in.

December 21, 2012 at 7 p.m.
patriot1 said...

There is nothing LaPierre could have said today that would satisfy the left and the left wing media so why be concerned. Does the NRA want to censor video games, movies and music now? Uhhhh, we already do some of that, it's called a rating system. Many parents are reluctant to even go into a child's room, afraid it will upset them, so someone should censor them. Parents, like Ms Lanza need to stop trying to be friends with their children and be parents....there is a difference.

December 21, 2012 at 7:05 p.m.
dude_abides said...

patriotL said... "Parents, like Ms Lanza need to stop trying to be friends with their children and be parents....there is a difference."

She took him shooting with her, like many good conservative parents do.

Didn't Hitler start with documenting the handicapped and insane before he began gassing them? If I'm not mistaken, something like this was proposed by the NRA today on national television. "A dozen more killers? A hundred? More? How can we possibly even guess how many, given our nation’s refusal to create an active national database of the mentally ill?"

F*cking Nazis

December 21, 2012 at 7:46 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, Now, the easy way to prove "thou shalt not kill" means murder, without being "fluent in the language which Moses spoke" as you put it.

You see MTJohn, "thou shalt not kill" was one of the 10 Commandments given by God. Those commandments pertain to individuals. Individuals are not allowed to kill another person outside of the law. This would be UNLAWFUL.

That is why "thou shalt not kill" means murder!!! Pay attention to the context MTJohn, the context. MURDER MTJohn. Murder, the UNLAWFUL killing of another person.

So simple MTJohn, so simple.

Take some time and ponder that.

December 21, 2012 at 8:09 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Conservative uttered: "That is why "thou shalt not kill" means murder!!! Pay attention to the context MTJohn, the context. MURDER MTJohn. Murder, the UNLAWFUL killing of another person."

**So what God did in killing innocent people is just killing and that's OK? Or did God commit murder and it's OK because God did it?

This God crap is confusing? Any clarity, Conny? Or I should say any clarity that makes sense?**

December 21, 2012 at 8:32 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Here's another Conservative's viewpoint on killing.

"I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." (Adolph Hitler, Mein Kampf)

Seems if you're conservative and know what God wants, it's OK. Right, Conny?

December 21, 2012 at 9:09 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

"It is frustrating - especially when you see John Boehner unable to get his caucus to pass gas. --miraweb"

I currently reside in the third congressional district of the great state of Tennessee. My voice will be heard as the honorable Chuck Fleischmann speaks for his constituency. What say you Rep Chuck? "No comment." Well...Screw it. I will see y'all at the bottom of the cliff.

In defense of Fleischmann, that "Chuck on the job" program was a success. After he stood at a service station on Signal Mountain Boulevard for a couple of hours pumping gas for people, he gained keen insight into the world of the working man. Specifically, the gas jockeys that you see at full-service stations if you hop into the wayback machine and travel to 1962.

"Democracy is the art and science of running the circus from the monkey cage." --H.L. Mencken

December 21, 2012 at 10:14 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

Jake and Elwood Blues should contact conservative. They too were on a mission from God.

"We're getting the band back together!"

December 21, 2012 at 10:19 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Con-man, I'm still waiting on your response to my 3:40 p.m. post. I asked you something similar over a week ago and you never responded then either. I think you cannot respond because you have no response - no logical one anyway. Either you view the Bible as the inerrant word of God wherein EVERYTHING is to be taken literally, or you don't. I want you to tell us if you obey God's dictates about breaking the Sabbath, kids disobeying and disrespecting parents, people committing adultery, and the others I listed. And if you do not obey those laws then why not? You can't just pick and choose which laws you decide to obey and which you choose to ignore. But then, I guess you can...if you're a cherry picker.

As for your comments on the Ten Commandments and particularly "Thou shalt not kill": What context?? Your God did not frame his commandments within a "context!" According to you and what most fundamentalist Christians claim, there is no higher law than God's law. Show me anywhere in the entire Bible that God speaks of his laws within the "context" of man's laws. He did not say "Thou shalt not kill, except in cases of capital punishment or war or when the law deems it lawful." He said, "thou shalt not kill." Period. Any attempt to embellish it with your own take on it, or that of some Christian theologian or Bible scholar is just that - a loose (very loose) interpretation, or worse yet, an interpolation. "Thou shalt not kill" is pretty straightforward, concise, and unambiguous, no matter what language it is written in.

You wrap yourself in so many layers of illogic and nonsense trying to explain a book that in itself is utter nonsense, you just sound sillier and sillier all the time.

December 21, 2012 at 10:30 p.m.
patriot1 said...

mira...Boehner's problem is due mainly to Obama and the 'rats like Reid who just don't seem to care whether an agreement is reached or not. It's off to Hawaii, isn't life great? Like his good friend the misogynist Jay-Z, he might have 99 problems but to him the economy is not one.

December 21, 2012 at 10:41 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

And another thing, con-man...like darwin said, for your God to be so opposed to killing he sure did enough of it himself. And he demanded that his chosen people commit enough heinous atrocities and barbarism to make for one helluva blood-fest against people whose primary sins were merely that they were not his "chosen." Don't speak to me of your "loving" God. He's a friggin' sadistic, psychotic, genocidal, ego-maniacal monster. And you are a pathetic brain-dead cherry-picking Christian to worship such a God.

December 21, 2012 at 10:48 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Patriot, Obama has already conceded to the Republicans: he has agreed to raising taxes only on those making above $400,000 instead of the original mark of $250,000; and he has put social security on the table by considering lowering the yearly cost-of-living-adjustment. How have the Republicans given so much as an inch? Answer: they haven't! Their idea of reaching an "agreement" is for them to sit perfectly still and hold out for Obama to keep conceding until he meets them all the way on their side of the bargaining table. If we go over the cliff it will be the recalcitrant Repubs' fault and most Americans have wised up enough by now to know that.

December 21, 2012 at 10:59 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative -

So what? Whether the correct translation of a particular Hebrew word (don't forget, scholars are not always sure of the Hebrew word, much less the correct translation) is irrelevant. God did not ordain and unfair, unjust system of criminal justice. God forbid vengeance. God did not ordain a system of capital punishment that would permit the execution of innocents. Therefore, God did NOT ordain capital punishment as we practice it in this country.

December 23, 2012 at 8:01 a.m.
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