published Thursday, May 23rd, 2013

The Welcome Mat

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

141
Comments do not represent the opinions of the Chattanooga Times Free Press, nor does it review every comment. Profanities, slurs and libelous remarks are prohibited. For more information you can view our Terms & Conditions and/or Ethics policy.
EaTn said...

Even some of the right-wingers are beginning to see the inevitable. We have a jewel in this country that other places in Europe and Japan envy--it's called the accessible southern border. Our birth rate has been on the decline for decades and could be reaching the point of economic catastrophe if it weren't for immigrants closing the workforce and birth rate gap. This single factor will help maintain our economic super-status in the world for decades to come.

May 23, 2013 at 6:48 a.m.

Ridiculous. Immigrants? Law breakers you mean, illegal aliens. I'm getting tired of illegal aliens accorded the title of immigrants. It's an insult to those who come in the proper way. It's really something to witness the contortions both parties go through to kiss up to illegal aliens. Why is it assumed that all Mexican-Americans favor illegal entry into the country? Breaking the law has become ok under Obabla.

Our southern border is a "jewel". That's really pushing it. Yes let's all give in and accept anything. Stupid.

May 23, 2013 at 7:27 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Back to the old Bennett...

I guess we need more people to pay into the ponzi scheme that is our social welfare state. What happens when you have run out of room?

May 23, 2013 at 7:35 a.m.
joneses said...

I agree EaTN. These immigrants are needed because we have created in America an entitlement mentality where many Americans choose to live in poverty by depending on the government or those of us who choose to work, for their meager living. These immigrants are hard working and will be until they figure out they can have a better life in America than Mexico by mooching off those of us who choose to have a better quality of life through hard work. They will eventually learn how to collect infinite unemployment, welfare, food stamps, and disability from their neighbors and we will be adding them to the government payroll continuing down the path of more massive debt. I agree they are needed until they figure out they do not have to work.

May 23, 2013 at 7:43 a.m.

Democrats and Republicans both don't give a crap about tax paying citizens. They both just want a new "voting block".

May 23, 2013 at 8:43 a.m.
alprova said...

joneses, now you have crossed the line. Your entire post was the statement of a blatant RACIST. You held yourself out to be better than an entire race of people.

Hispanics who come here "illegally" do not come here to "mooch off of those of us who choose to have a better quality of life through hard work." They come here seeking stability and prosperity in their lives that you take for granted that you are entitled to as an American.

You posted more than a few machinations, rumors, and untruths. Now let's discuss some facts.

The fact of the matter is that the Hispanics who cross our border, come from many nations other than Mexico and they come here seeking WORK.

They do assimilate themselves into our society to live and perform tedious and hard labor for compensation that you and I would not, could not, or are not able to do.

Most of these people are church-going, die-hard Catholics. Many of these people came here with nothing and now own businesses. They are not standing in lines seeking freebies.

They come here to earn enough to support their families just like Americans do. They contribute to our society just like home grown Americans do.

Most of these people are young. And because they are and because Americans are not having children like they once did, and because baby-boomers are retiring at a rate of 10,000 per day currently, it makes perfect sense to make these people legalized residents, issue them Social Security numbers, tax them, and allow them to pay into social programs to keep the money flowing.

Desperation and impoverished conditions in their home countries compels these people to come to the United States and to choose between living in complete poverty for the rest of their lives and breaking the law in another nation, for a shot at improving their lives.

It's fine to stand your ground that these people are here against the sovereign laws of this nation, but where is your humanity and any demonstration of an ounce of compassion for people who risk their very lives to come here?

You really ought to be ashamed to have written what you wrote this morning. I dare offer that not one illegal immigrant has affected your personal life one iota.

You're a hard-hearted man.

May 23, 2013 at 8:50 a.m.
alprova said...

zable wrote: "Democrats and Republicans both don't give a crap about tax paying citizens."

The very act of legalizing them would make them active and productive taxpayers themselves. Your theory has holes in it.

"They both just want a new "voting block"."

Republicans have a long way to go to begin to capture the votes of Hispanics in numbers enough to sway elections, and the more Hispanics read commentary like you have offered this morning, don't expect elections to be swayed anytime soon in favor of candidates that you may support, despite their "holding their nose" reluctant support of immigration reform.

May 23, 2013 at 9:03 a.m.
Maximus said...

Two things. Funny how Clay's depiction of a Republican male looks like most every white liberal Democrat male I have ever met, fat and soft. The guy with the door mat looks like one of my Marxist college professors.

Secondly, the U.K. has put out the welcome mat for Muslims for many years and look what happened yesterday. Two Islamic Terrorists hacked a member of the British military to death yesterday in the streets of London. Captured on video, one of the Islamic terrorists with blood on his hands, stated, an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth, this is how we do it in our "home" country. The two Radical Islamic Terrorists had been granted citizenship and were on welfare. Sound familiar? The two Radical Islamic Terrorist Boston Bombers were granted asylum with their family to the U.S. and were both on welfare (on our dime). Now we are debating whether we should grant amnesty to 30 million illegals. Doing so will put the United States at greater risk, place a burden on our already bankrupt government welfare and safety net programs and continue the slow process of destroying our unique American culture. Ask the people of the U.K. if they could change or reverse their immigration policy and you would receive a resounding HELL YES! Travel to London as I have recently and you will see that the British culture you are expecting is no more. Burkas and robes have taken over the bespoked suits and the unique British formality of the past.

Call your Congressman and your Senator's today at 202-224-3121. Tell them to stop the immigration bill immediately and secure our borders first! If 30 million illegals are granted amnesty you can basically kiss the American flag goodbye. Have a great Memorial Day weekend and God Bless America, The Land Of The Free Because Of The Brave! I'm off to the beach!

May 23, 2013 at 9:10 a.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "I guess we need more people to pay into the ponzi scheme that is our social welfare state."

Of course, you are free to describe it any way you see fit, but we have a nation of people who have paid into social entitlements for all of their working lives, and they deserve those entitlements.

If people want to change the system, that's fine and dandy, but the proper way to do that is to start with people entering the workforce NOW...not to change the game when people are about to cross the finish line.

"What happens when you have run out of room?"

Was that a serious question?

May 23, 2013 at 9:10 a.m.
joneses said...

alpos

Again you have shown you do not know how to comprehend a simple opinion. The point of my post are immigrants come here seeking prosperity and are needed to fill the void for the many Americans who are to lazy to work and choose to live in the government poverty system. Then after many of them have been here for a while they learn from their lazy American neighbors they can live a better life here mooching off the government than they lived in Mexico. There is not one bit of racism in my post. I have nothing against blacks, hispanics, chinese, or ay other ethnic group. But of course your lack of intellect dictates that anyone that disagrees with you is a racist. You loose the little credibility, if you have any at all, by twisting the truth about my post and using the race card in all the post you disagree with. You use the race card because that is all you have. Grow up!

May 23, 2013 at 9:13 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo says....."but the proper way to do that is to start with people entering the workforce NOW...not to change the game when people are about to cross the finish line."

Alpo, looks like you've pretty much described and defined a ponzi scheme.

May 23, 2013 at 9:18 a.m.
joneses said...

patriot1

The problem with alpos and other liberals is they create a lie what they want us conservatives to be. Alpos proved this with him purposely missing the point of my post. He responded to nothing I posted but responded to what he wanted me to say. The builder that built my house asked me if I had any issues with Mexicans working on my house. I told him no I do not. Actually when my house was being built I used this opportunity to learn a bit of Spanish from these hard workers and developed a relationship with a couple of them. Alpos will never believe this as he is living a lie from what his liberal friends have brainwashed him into thinking about conservatives. If he did believe it, it would piss him off because it goes against him using the race card every time one disagrees with him. He is that, "Misguided".

May 23, 2013 at 9:24 a.m.
alprova said...

patriot1, I have never denied that Social Security or Medicare is not based on a Ponzi scheme. It is what it is.

That does not necessarily mean that there is anything evil in play.

Pension plans are Ponzi-like plans. They are being eradicated.

Converting Social Security over to IRA's is a good idea and I'm all for it, but don't change it for people who are about to cross the finish line after paying into the "scheme" for all of their working lives.

Start at the bottom and work your way up.

Does that not make sense?

May 23, 2013 at 9:33 a.m.
Maximus said...

Obama welocmes illegals with open arms because as with all Democrats life begins when you sign up for entitlements. Yes, at some point we were all immigrants but our motivation for coming to the U.S. was totally different then. Now, the Obama government is "promoting" our wonderful guvment safety net to illegals. It seems hard to believe but so is the testimony of the IRS official yesterday, Mr. Shulman, when he stated that after visiting the White House over 100 times for meetings the only thing he can remember is the EGG ROLL. When it comes to the Obama administration, ITS A THUG LIFE!

May 23, 2013 at 9:36 a.m.
Maximus said...

Alprova....Pension plans are like Ponzi schemes? You better stick with social justice and political agitation. Finance is not your forte. I have two non-contributory pensions from two different employers. Also, a number of Money Market and Investment Accounts that I manage. Emphasis on the "I", its a personal responsibility thing. The guvment needs to add choice to the Social Security and Medicare programs. I would rather invest my own SS money and I would much prefer to pay cash for my healthcare. Take guvment out of the entitlements as much as possible and watch the Democrats go bat shiat crazy. With administrators like Schulman and Lerner at the IRS no wonder the country is bankrupt. I would not hire either one of those arrogant, incompetent a holes.

May 23, 2013 at 9:44 a.m.
alprova said...

joneses wrote: "Again you have shown you do not know how to comprehend a simple opinion. The point of my post are immigrants come here seeking prosperity and are needed to fill the void for the many Americans who are to lazy to work and choose to live in the government poverty system."

That's not what you wrote and you know it.

"Then after many of them have been here for a while they learn from their lazy American neighbors they can live a better life here mooching off the government than they lived in Mexico."

What do you base that prediction on? Hispanics are not predisposed to being lazy or mooching. Their culture is all about hard WORK!!

"There is not one bit of racism in my post. I have nothing against blacks, hispanics, chinese, or ay other ethnic group."

Your post speaks for itself and no one could read it and not come to the same conclusion that I did.

"But of course your lack of intellect dictates that anyone that disagrees with you is a racist."

Your arguments never change. Anyone who disagrees with you lacks intellect. At least you can spell the word.

"You loose (sic) the little credibility, if you have any at all, by twisting the truth about my post and using the race card in all the post you disagree with. You use the race card because that is all you have. Grow up!"

No Sir. What I have is compassion, understanding, and empathy for people who come here seeking to improve the lives of themselves and their families.

I don't care that they break any "law" to do it.

I'm pretty sure that God would not endorse the views of people who believe as you do, that sovereignty is to be used to exclude those who are totally without hope.

May 23, 2013 at 9:47 a.m.
klifnotes said...

The only reason the right doesn't want immigrants crossing the southern border legalized is because they are the ones who most reap the benefits of their slave-like labor. Working for less than minimum wage. At times not paid at all.

Florida's immigrant migrant tomato pickers is one of many fine examples.

May 23, 2013 at 9:53 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Just look at England. How's that welcoming immigration policy working out for them? Anyone been to Europe lately? Like a stroll thru Mecca. Shameful to let one culture overcome another.

May 23, 2013 at 9:54 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

klifnotes: That's just wrong. I've lived in Texas and can assure you most illegals earn more than minimum wage.

May 23, 2013 at 10 a.m.
joneses said...

alpos

You know what you are and you know you twist the truth and lie. You proved your misguide mind in your statement "I don't care that they break any "law" to do it." What you are saying is you do care if they murder Americans to get here. That is a sick mind. I am not going to waste time conversing with a misguided fool like you and I will ask you to please refrain from commenting on my post as you are to mentally handicapped and dishonest to understand what I say. You know as well as I the liberals want the illegal immigrants to come to America so you can get them on your poverty laden government handouts and collect their votes. You have also proved how liberals think. Forget about unintended consequences as long as it makes "you" feel good about yourself while disguising your true intention. How self serving is that? You couldn't care less about their well being.

I have better things to do today than converse with a fool like you.

May 23, 2013 at 10:02 a.m.
tifosi said...

Funny thing is that these folks have taxes withheld, but cannot file for refunds that they would normally be entitled to.

May 23, 2013 at 10:13 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

tifosi: You go into a country illegally, don't expect the benefits that legals get. Not complicated.

May 23, 2013 at 10:20 a.m.
alprova said...

Maximus wrote: "Alprova....Pension plans are like Ponzi schemes? You better stick with social justice and political agitation. Finance is not your forte."

Are you sure about that? Name a Pension plan that has survived more than 75 years and remained totally solvent. Whether it is contributory or non-contributory, eventually every pension plan is over-whelmed with receipients.

Companies experiencing financial difficulties raid their pension plans routinely. The only safe investment or retirement plan is one that you control yourself, in all aspects, and that no one but yourself has access to.

"I have two non-contributory pensions from two different employers"

Interesting, but what's your point? I was sure you were going to explain why it is that finance is not my forte.

What a shame.

May 23, 2013 at 10:59 a.m.
degage said...

tifosi, Depends on how many dependents they claim. 5 dependents and they pay no taxes and believe me they have been schooled on how to get around taxes. They have no choice about SS tax. They live among us they should pay their fair share whether they are legal or not.

May 23, 2013 at 11:01 a.m.
tifosi said...

Plaintruth: If you were in their shoes, you would do the same.

May 23, 2013 at 11:02 a.m.
alprova said...

joneses wrote: "alpos, You know what you are and you know you twist the truth and lie."

Your posts speak volumes. I need not type a word.

"You proved your misguide mind in your statement "I don't care that they break any "law" to do it." What you are saying is you do care if they murder Americans to get here."

How you extrapolate that conclusion from what I wrote, is beyond all comprehension.

"I will ask you to please refrain from commenting on my post as you are to mentally handicapped and dishonest to understand what I say."

Sorry, but you don't get to pick and choose who responds to your posts. If you have the nerve to type, you can expect to receive a little criticism every now and then.

"You know as well as I the liberals want the illegal immigrants to come to America so you can get them on your poverty laden government handouts and collect their votes."

It irks you that they know who cares and who doesn't.

"You have also proved how liberals think. Forget about unintended consequences as long as it makes "you" feel good about yourself while disguising your true intention."

Everything with you people is a conspiracy or everyone has some ulterior motive, right?

"I have better things to do today than converse with a fool like you."

I'm sure you do. You're probably going to beat up the first Hispanic you see today, out of sheer frustration.

May 23, 2013 at 11:08 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

What is so appealing to you southpaws about letting in zillioins of illegals? (aside from the obvious voting bloc) serious question

May 23, 2013 at 11:13 a.m.
conservative said...

Even Liberals admit Socialism Security is a type of Ponzi Scheme.

May 23, 2013 at 11:14 a.m.
alprova said...

Tifosi wrote: "Plaintruth: If you were in their shoes, you would do the same."

That's the part that immigration reform opponents never own up to.

They are members of an elite group of people and they want to keep lower class people shut out so that they can mainain what they believe to be their own status quo.

It's a tired cliché, but I have a serious question for those of you who are so on the right-wing end of this issue.

What would Jesus do?

May 23, 2013 at 11:15 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo says...."patriot1, I have never denied that Social Security or Medicare is not based on a Ponzi scheme. It is what it is."

If you really believe that, why do you suppose Madoff, et al, are in jail? His contributors were not FORCED to contribute to his scheme the way we are to social security and medicare.

May 23, 2013 at 11:17 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

alpo says "They are members of an elite group of people and they want to keep lower class people shut out so that they can mainain what they believe to be their own status quo. It's a tired cliché, but I have a serious question for those of you who are so on the right-wing end of this issue." just a flat-out lie, alpo akin to all opposing obama are racist
Look at what's going on in Europe thanks to "enlightened" immigration. Muslims rioting as we speak in Sweden. You'll have to look hard to find reporting of this.

May 23, 2013 at 11:25 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

Got a problem with 'illegal immigrants/aliens'?
Get the DHS involved as its a security issue and start really cracking down on those that hire them.

I don't fault those desperate people trying to better themselves; I have no patience for those taking advantage of them by trying to turn America into Bangladesh.

May 23, 2013 at 11:58 a.m.
tifosi said...

Plaintruth: If you were in their shoes, what would you do??? Would you risk crossing the border in order to take care of a family and improve their lives. I have been south of the border in various parts. It is sad. In order to resolve the problem, there must be some equalization of economies. You will be the first to scream if American companies set up shop in Mexico in order to create jobs. Can't have your cake and eat it too. Wake up to reality.

As for the Muslims rioting in Sweden. It is kind of reminiscent of the blacks in the '60s. If only those non-whites would just stay in their place. Right?

From the BBC: "The trouble began on Monday after a group of youths in a suburb with a mainly immigrant population were refused entry to a school dance.

Police say up to 100 youths went on the rampage, throwing stones and setting several cars alight.

Two people were detained but later released."

May 23, 2013 at 12:12 p.m.
tifosi said...

More from Sweden. In case you couldn't find Plaintruth.

"Some rioters quoted in media reports made similar claims, while others alleged that the violence was a response to “police brutality” or “structural racism.”

“We see a society that is becoming increasingly divided and where the gaps, both socially and economically, are becoming larger,” said co-founder Rami Al-Khamisi with the group Megafonen, which purports to represent suburbs and minorities.

“And the people out here are being hit the hardest,” he added. “We have institutional racism.”

Backlash against immigrants

Others in Sweden lashed out at immigrants and massive immigration in general, saying the riots illustrated the “failure of multiculturalism” and the problems with allowing too many foreigners in without a real plan."

Seems like America's non-plan worked out okay. All those non-english speaking boroughs in New York have been there for over a hundred years. Very productive people too. It is funny how my Scot-Irish ancestors (first Tennessee settlers) left the big cities because they were frowned upon for being ignorant and lazy. They talked funny too!

May 23, 2013 at 12:29 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

tifosi says "As for the Muslims rioting in Sweden. It is kind of reminiscent of the blacks in the '60s. If only those non-whites would just stay in their place. Right?" There is NOTHING similar between the two situations. Nothing.

May 23, 2013 at 12:33 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Tifosi: Have you been to Europe? It's no wonder citizens complain about "multiculturalism" (whatever the hell that is). How many Americans returning from Italy have you heard say "Oh my, we particularly enjoyed the Muslims crowding us out at the Vatican, try to sell plastic rosaries, crucifixes, etc." How many Tifosi? Or those returning from London, "my it was a great experience tho we could hardly find Trafalgar Square because it was hidden from view by the junk selling arabs? How about shop owners in England...hear them bragging about multiculturalism and how it aids in busting out their shop windows? HMMM? I would say that people of your ilk, Tifosi, are validating the scumbags that beheaded the British soldier in broad daylite. You people give me the effing creeps.

May 23, 2013 at 1:05 p.m.
tifosi said...

There you go lumping them all into one stereotype. Classic ignorance. What about the scumbags that enslaved Africans to grow cotton? Then held them down after we supposedly freed them. Then looked the other way while the original American terrorists (KKK) ran rampant. It took almost 100 years to just begin acting like the U.S. Constitution was for all people, not just white-anglo-judeo-christian. I love it when folks say "They should learn to speak English if they want to live here". Where in the Constitution does it say "freedom of speech... but only in English"

I think I would rather be "be-headed" than dragged to death behind a pick-up truck on a Texas dirt road.

Either you walk the walk or you don't. Talkin' the talk is easy.

For the record, I have lived in Europe.

May 23, 2013 at 1:33 p.m.
chatt_man said...

If you are so ashamed of what our ancestors did, that most people living now had nothing to do with, tifosi, why didn't you stay in Europe, where everything is obviously much better for you? I guess you thought with Obama in office things would be more like Europe? I'm with PT on this one, people like you give me the creeps too!

May 23, 2013 at 2:15 p.m.
chatt_man said...

Let's all sing Kumbaya until all these people from other countries turn our country into something more like the country they came from.

I have nothing against people moving here from other countries, that is what Americas heritage is. I just think they should work harder to assimilate more into our lifestyle rather than try to change our to theirs.

May 23, 2013 at 2:20 p.m.
tifosi said...

I was living in Europe as a member of our fine armed forces while standing toe-to-toe with the Soviets. For the record, I am very ashamed of our ancestors that not only enslaved other human beings, but were traitors to the United States of America. It was only because of the great ambivalence and graciousness of President Abraham Lincoln that they were allowed to simply swear on a bible a re-allegiance to the great United States of America.

May 23, 2013 at 2:26 p.m.
chatt_man said...

Thank you for your service. Sorry you have such a poor opinion of our country, I'll still claim it if you won't. We're not perfect, and getting more screwed up as we go it seems. I can only apologize for my ancestors. If i don't carry on their ways and believe as they did, all I can do is make sure I don't do as they did.

May 23, 2013 at 2:32 p.m.
jesse said...

tifosi.

I seriously doubt the Europe of today is anything like the Eutope of 20-25 years ago! Kinda a apples and oranges type situation!!

May 23, 2013 at 2:41 p.m.
Leaf said...

I don't really get the cartoon.

You could easily argue that the stock market is more Ponzi-like than social security. Both of them depend on future growth. The growth of the companies represented in the stock market though, is much more unpredictable than population growth.

Neither of them, however, depends on exponential growth like an actual Ponzi scheme. So making that comparison isn't valid. One it mathematically sustainable and the other is not.

May 23, 2013 at 2:55 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Hey Tifosi: Why not just do away with borders? Admit it, that's what you one-worlders want, right?

May 23, 2013 at 3:19 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Apparently, O bama does not realize that his drone strategy is one of his few policies that already enjoys bipartisan support, right? Preachin to the choir.

May 23, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

From the BBC: "The trouble began on Monday after a group of youths in a suburb with a mainly immigrant population were refused entry to a school dance.

Police say up to 100 youths went on the rampage, throwing stones and setting several cars alight. Two people were detained but later released."


I can absolutely understand why those youths did that because if I were refused entry to a dance or or any other activity or facility the first thing I would do is to throw a temper tantrum with rock throwing and car burnings all around.

What I can’t understand is how only 100 youths could overwhelmed a large cities police force and sustain it for 4 or 5 days.

Wait a minute here is the link to the BBC article you quoted.

9 June 2010 Last updated at 11:31 ET

Immigrant youths riot in Sweden, burning down school

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10276738

What ... this happened in 2010?

May 23, 2013 at 3:29 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

The punk-ass muslim kids (like the London beheader) are simply misunderstood.

May 23, 2013 at 3:31 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

BHO thinks blowing the ever-loving shizz outta terrorists is more humane than water boarding. No?

May 23, 2013 at 3:35 p.m.

Just because someone has a burning desire to improve their situation, has a strong work ethic, and will do anything to leave their hellhole of a country doesn't mean they should should get away illegally entering a country. By that logic burglars should not be prosecuted for breaking into someone's house. You can nuance it to death if you want, but breaking in is breaking in, breaking the law is breaking the law, illegal entry is illegal entry.

May 23, 2013 at 3:48 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

Plaintruth: If you were in their shoes, what would you do??? Would you risk crossing the border in order to take care of a family and improve their lives.


I think you are really onto something there and it doesn’t have to just be limited to the immigration issue. The Congress should pass a law and let it be titled the “If You Were In Their Shoes” law. It would be based on the concept that if someone else had materials or positions that you personally felt you needed to improve your life you would be legally justified in taking it for yourself.

By the way is there a person that lives nearby that has a much better car than yours which would fill your needs of higher social status and greater mechanical reliability that not only do you need but deserve?

May 23, 2013 at 3:49 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

As for the Muslims rioting in Sweden. It is kind of reminiscent of the blacks in the '60s. If only those non-whites would just stay in their place. Right?


I know what you mean as the Swiss are so behind in the times in their acceptance of multiculturalism and the provision of a proper safety net for those in need.

Plus most countries that imported slaves provided some form of transportation to their new hovels and workstations. The Swiss were the cruelest of all as instead of allowing theirs to just enter the country on their own they sent out groups of Slaveboys on Shetland ponies to drive them to Sweden on foot. Even when they came to bodies of water they made them swim across and the shores of the Mediterranean were littered with their bodies.

After the great Sweden Slave Liberation Wars were over they were simply forced by law to be grouped together in cheap government compounds and only given the minimum of life's necessities to exist on.

Oh the humanity!

May 23, 2013 at 4:09 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

tifosi: How exactly are you walking the walk?

May 23, 2013 at 4:23 p.m.
chatt_man said...

What the hell, jt6, you mean Sweden had slavery too? Them SOB's,we should hold everyone living there currently responsible for this. Do they have an Obama they could send on an apology tour?

While reading your last paragraph, I couldn't help but think maybe that's where we're headed. It amazes me the number of people that seem to want to be content with whatever the government is willing to give them. I'm afraid our safety net is becoming a way of life for too many.

May 23, 2013 at 4:38 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Leaf said...

I don't really get the cartoon.

You could easily argue that the stock market is more Ponzi-like than social security. Both of them depend on future growth. The growth of the companies represented in the stock market though, is much more unpredictable than population growth.

Neither of them, however, depends on exponential growth like an actual Ponzi scheme. So making that comparison isn't valid. One it mathematically sustainable and the other is not.


Wiki:

A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that pays returns to its investors from their own money or the money paid by subsequent investors, rather than from profit earned by the individual or organization running the operation.

The Ponzi scheme usually entices new investors by offering higher returns than other investments, in the form of short-term returns that are either abnormally high or unusually consistent.

Perpetuation of the high returns requires an ever-increasing flow of money from new investors to keep the scheme going.


Yep. Sounds just like investing in real companies that produce something and provides a profit. Not all like the deal where those that qualify for withdrawal earlier reap a return of more than they invested even accounting for inflation.

The difference being made up by an infinitesimal interest rate paid by the federal government combined with the hugely greater infusion of funds by the newer investors. After all these newer investors are guaranteed to get back at least 50 to 75% of their money. A great deal if you ask me.

May 23, 2013 at 4:43 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

The #POTUS used a Play right out of one his Playbook today when he Planted a Fake #Gitmo Heckler at his speech to help garner sympathy for him and his failed policies. If that was a Heckler against him he would not have encouraged it. so very obvious...what a creep

May 23, 2013 at 4:52 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

tifosi said...

I was living in Europe as a member of our fine armed forces while standing toe-to-toe with the Soviets.


I’m sure that’s what made them blink because it was not like there was a place on Earth that we were not all “toe to toe” with them. If things had gone wrong you probably had about the same longevity as the rest of us. I don’t think I was ever more than 15 minutes from being vaporized. Don’t pat yourself on the back so much as you could have been in direct combat in any of the hell holes around the world. Those people usually don’t brag about their service.


For the record, I am very ashamed of our ancestors that not only enslaved other human beings, but were traitors to the United States of America.


You can be ashamed of yours if you want but I don’t think I will of mine. Slavery was a strain on our country but not on me as not one of my kin that I’m aware of participated in that activity and those I’m unaware of I don’t judge them as I have no way of knowing their participation. This country has paid and continues to pay a great price in lives and treasure to end that institution and its after effects. I think that contemporary America has nothing to feel guilty about or should feel any shame for what happened 150 years ago.


It was only because of the great ambivalence and graciousness of President Abraham Lincoln that they were allowed to simply swear on a bible a re-allegiance to the great United States of America.


What was his alternative? He had a great portion of the nation disenfranchised with all that entailed of instability in the governance of the country. It had little or no ambivalence and graciousness and was a pure example of “Realpolitik”.

May 23, 2013 at 5:21 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Heritage: Amnestied Illegals Will Get $9.4T in Benefits; Increase Debt $6.3T'

Elizabeth Harrington:

Granting amnesty to illegal immigrants would cost $6.3 trillion, according to a new report by the Heritage Foundation.

“Unlawful immigration and amnesty for current unlawful immigrants can pose large fiscal costs for U.S. taxpayers,” states the report.

Not only would the federal deficit increase, but the cost of benefits and services to millions of newly minted citizens would reach nearly $10 trillion.

“Over a lifetime, the former unlawful immigrants together would receive $9.4 trillion in government benefits and services and pay $3.1 trillion in taxes,” the report states. “They would generate a lifetime fiscal deficit (total benefits minus total taxes) of $6.3 trillion.”

May 23, 2013 at 5:55 p.m.
alprova said...

patriot1 wrote: "If you really believe that, why do you suppose Madoff, et al, are in jail? His contributors were not FORCED to contribute to his scheme the way we are to social security and medicare."

Do I have to type it?

Obviously there are double standards for the private sector and for our Gov't.

May 23, 2013 at 8:13 p.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "just a flat-out lie, alpo akin to all opposing obama are racist"

Then enlighten me as to why you make any comparison of Hispanics, who are a race of people, to Muslims, which are distinguished by their religious preferences.

It seems to me a comparison of apples and grapes.

"Look at what's going on in Europe thanks to "enlightened" immigration. Muslims rioting as we speak in Sweden. You'll have to look hard to find reporting of this."

So what? What's going on in Sweden has nothing to do with legal or illegal immigration in that nation.

May 23, 2013 at 8:19 p.m.
alprova said...

zable wrote: "Just because someone has a burning desire to improve their situation, has a strong work ethic, and will do anything to leave their hellhole of a country doesn't mean they should should get away illegally entering a country."

Well, it's not up to you what happens to those people.

"By that logic burglars should not be prosecuted for breaking into someone's house."

That's a whole different situation.

"You can nuance it to death if you want, but breaking in is breaking in, breaking the law is breaking the law, illegal entry is illegal entry."

Well then, if you feel that strongly about it, instead of spending your time beotching about it in a forum in Chattanooga, store your personal items, hop a plane to the southern border destination of your choice, and stand a post.

May 23, 2013 at 8:30 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Bill Gives DHS Sec. 'Virtually Unlimited Discretion to Waive Any Manner of Crimes,' ICE Council Warns Congress

Craig Bannister

Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.) entered a letter from law enforcement officials nationwide warning of the dangers of the immigration bill S.744 into the judiciary committee record today.

The letter To Congress from the National Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) Council of the American Federation of Government Employees Affiliated with AFL-CIO warns of the discretionary power the bill gives to “political appointees” and takes away from law enforcers:

“Congress can and must take decisive steps to limit the discretion of political appointees and empower ICE and CBP to perform their respective missions and enforce the laws enacted by Congress. Rather than limiting the power of those political appointees within DHS, S. 744 provides them with nearly unlimited discretion, which will serve only to further cripple the law enforcement missions of these agencies.”

“This same section (Section 2101 of S. 744) gives the Secretary of Homeland Security virtually unlimited discretion to waive any manner of crimes that would otherwise make an individual ineligible for legal status––for such expansive reasons as family unity, humanitarian purposes, or what the Secretary believes is in the public interest.”

“At least two of these standards appear undefined by S. 744 or current law, providing political appointees with broad authority to establish their own definitions of these terms and pardon criminal acts under almost any circumstance.”

“The bill states that individuals who have previously been deported or otherwise removed from the country are ineligible to apply for legal status. However, the Secretary is given the 'sole and unreviewable discretion' to waive that ineligibility for large classes of qualifying aliens.”

In seven instances, the bill grants "unreviewable" powers. The letter concludes that ICE officers would continue to be “powerless” to protect the public and do their jobs if the bill becomes law:

“If this legislation were enacted tomorrow, ICE officers would continue to be powerless to effectively enforce our nation’s laws and provide for public safety as S. 744 does nothing to end these dangerous agency- and department-level directives.”

May 23, 2013 at 8:38 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

ICE Agent Union President Claims White House Inflates Deportation Numbers

A.j. Delgado

Chris Crane, president of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers union:

Crane explained how President Obama and Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano have, since the administration’s start, “attempted to shut down” border enforcement and “absolutely” tied law enforcement’s hands.

When Levin asked how their hands are tied, Crane explained, as an example, that ICE agents are not allowed (despite having the vested authority to do so by Congress) to arrest an individual they suspect to be an illegal alien, an illegal alien gang member, or illegal alien criminal. Instead, they are reportedly under orders to wait until the individual commits a crime, is arrested by another law enforcement agency (such as local police), jailed, and only then may an immigration agent speak with the individual.

Additionally, the deportation process can only begin if the individual has been convicted of three or more criminal offenses.

When Levin asked if this is a huge change from previous administrations, Crane responded: “Absolutely, it’s a dramatic change.”

Despite the Obama Administration’s claims of robust border enforcement and record-high ICE deportation numbers, Crane noted how the administration actually cooks the books and inflates deportation numbers. Data that Crane obtained demonstrates that, since 2008, ICE arrests and deportations “have plummeted.”

Crane explained how it works: Border Patrol (a separate agency from ICE) makes an arrest on the border, but instead of handling the deportation itself, Border Patrol hands the detainee over to ICE to deport the individual, thereby inflating the number of ICE deportations. Crane described it as a “shell game” that allows what would normally be a mere "turn-back" to be counted as a formal "deportation," thus inflating the deportation statistics.

Crane also noted that, while Senator Marco Rubio (R-FL) has met with him, he has received “no response at all” to his requests for meetings with the other three Republican "Gang of 8" senators: Jeff Flake (R-AZ), John McCain (R-AZ), and Lindsey Graham (R-SC). When Levin remarked that these senators nonetheless have had time to meet with the National Council of La Raza, Crane claimed: “Those groups are now running our agency... That’s why we’re not arresting people, that’s why we can’t do our jobs – it’s because they’re basically embedded in running our agency.”

May 23, 2013 at 8:43 p.m.
klifnotes said...

PlainTruth said... klifnotes: That's just wrong. I've lived in Texas and can assure you most illegals earn more than minimum wage.

I'ved there too. El Paso. Unless you view every Hispanic/Mexican in Texas as a potential illegal how would know? Surely, the ones you're aware of are likely not illegal. They just look that way to you because of their physical appearance and your perception of illegals.

May 23, 2013 at 9:33 p.m.
klifnotes said...

by the way, is the timefreepress tfponline changing or something? I think someone else has already asked the question, but it seems tfponline . com and timesfreepress . com are separate. tfponline hasn't been updated in almost two days. What happened?

May 23, 2013 at 9:37 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

The Huffington Post calling for Holder to go? Yes. That just happened. That’s how bad it’s getting for one of the worst AGs ever.

May 23, 2013 at 10:56 p.m.
carlB said...

DO we NEED a COMPREHENSIVE Immigration Bill? It does not matter which administration Party has been in power or control, can anyone come up with a time when there was not a problem on our Southern Border of some kind, even before that portion did not consist of STATEs in the USA? What does the immigration problem and the global economy problem have in common? Misuse of the word "Immigrant"? What types of immigrants come to the US and Canada ? There are many different types of immigrants that come to the US and Canada such as men, women, What types of http://zach15131.tripod.com/id1.html =============== There are many kinds of immigrants: legal, illegal, temporary ... http://agecon.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/philip-martin/docs/usimmigration.php

There are four types of front-door entrants. By far the largest category is for relatives of US residents; in 1996, two-thirds of the immigrants were granted entry ...

All persons in the United States are defined by law as U.S. citizens or aliens – aliens are persons who are citizens of another country. Under the laws of the United States aliens may be immigrants; refugees or asylees; nonimmigrants; or unauthorized.

Since the Congress is supposed to (soon) discuss and pass a comprehensive Immigration Bill to solve all the ill's or good being caused from of all the people "coming to America," we know it will not be easy for them because of the complexity. We just never know what all of the elected supposedly knowledge people will do?
IT ALL depends on which people they want to help the most.

May 24, 2013 at 12:09 a.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Just another day implementing Obamacare and granting amnesty:

Immigration Bill Gives New Legals $3,000 Hiring Edge Over Citizens

Jed Graham

Under the immigration reform bill, some employers would have an incentive of up to $3,000 per year to hire a newly legalized immigrant over a U.S. citizen.

The bipartisan legislation released Wednesday dictates that those granted provisional legal immigrant status would be treated the same as those "not lawfully present" are treated under the 2010 health law.

That means they would neither be eligible for ObamaCare tax credits nor required to pay an individual tax penalty for failing to obtain qualifying health coverage. It also means some employers would face no penalty for failing to provide such workers affordable health coverage.

For employers who don't offer insurance, fines are based on full-time equivalent staffing levels, so distinctions between citizens and visa holders don't matter.

But employers who do offer insurance also can face fines. If the coverage costs a worker more than 9.5% of pay, it is deemed unaffordable and the worker becomes eligible for ObamaCare's exchange subsidies.

These employers would have to pay the government up to $3,000 per full-time worker who receives ObamaCare subsidies.

Some employers have said they would seek to limit ObamaCare fines by shifting some workers to part-time, which the law defines as fewer than 30 hours.

The immigration bill, as written, would provide another path for avoiding fines by hiring of legalized immigrants as full-time employees, since they wouldn't be eligible for ObamaCare for a decade or more.

May 24, 2013 at 12:09 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...What do you base that prediction on? Hispanics are not predisposed to being lazy or mooching. Their culture is all about hard WORK!!

Obviously you have not spent any time in Mexico trying to hire and manage a work force there. There are a number of Hispanic immigrants that work hard and provide for their families. However, what you see in Mexico is not typical compared to what you see here. Also, you would need to spend some time in border states and California to understand the negative impact and difficulty dealing with the number of illegals they have. Failing to manage the rate of entry to where with reasonable criteria for entry allows too many undesirables and the criminal element to enter. I don't know but do you know the impact on Dalton, Georgia? I have heard they have a large Hispanic population.

May 24, 2013 at 12:21 a.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

From the Heritage Foundation:

The typical unlawful immigrant is 34 years old. After amnesty, this individual will receive government benefits, on average, for 50 years. Restricting access to benefits for the first 13 years after amnesty therefore has only a marginal impact on long-term costs.

If amnesty is enacted, the average adult unlawful immigrant would receive $592,000 more in government benefits over the course of his remaining lifetime than he would pay in taxes.

Over a lifetime, the former unlawful immigrants together would receive $9.4 trillion in government benefits and services and pay $3.1 trillion in taxes. They would generate a lifetime fiscal deficit (total benefits minus total taxes) of $6.3 trillion. (All figures are in constant 2010 dollars.)

This should be considered a minimum estimate. It probably understates real future costs because it undercounts the number of unlawful immigrants and dependents who will actually receive amnesty and underestimates significantly the future growth in welfare and medical benefits.

The debate about the fiscal consequences of unlawful and low-skill immigration is hampered by a number of misconceptions. Few lawmakers really understand the current size of government and the scope of redistribution.

The fact that the average household gets $31,600 in government benefits each year is a shock. The fact that a household headed by an individual with less than a high school degree gets $46,600 is a bigger one.

May 24, 2013 at 1:06 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Jt6,

That report was co-written by Jason Richwine. Richwine is the guy that wrote his thesis on how Hispanics have low IQ's. I wouldn't believe anything the Heritage Foundation put out anyway, but the report you've cited is co-written by a overt racist.

http://thinkprogress.org/immigration/2013/05/08/1978961/heritage-study-author-hispanic-immigrants-will-have-low-iq-children/

May 24, 2013 at 1:32 a.m.
acerigger said...

Just now looking over the thread,seems like all wingnut all day,lol.

can't decide if y'all are funnily pathetic or pathetically funny!

May 24, 2013 at 2:44 a.m.
Leaf said...

It's pretty sad when people read something on Wikipedia for two minutes and then think they are experts. I blame Hamilton County "education" and participation awards.

I'm sorry, your opinion is not worth just as much as an expert's if you are not highly intelligent and thoroughly educated in the subject.

May 24, 2013 at 8:47 a.m.
fairmon said...

I do wonder how many mayors and governors congress has asked for input on the issue, especially those affected most. Congress is in a location that has a booming economy that doesn't compare to the rest of the country. Many of them like to say what sets us apart from the rest of the world is we are a country of laws. None of them admit with selective enforcement.

May 24, 2013 at 9:12 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon, I'm sure that Mexico has its share of unmotivated and lazy people too, but then those people are not going to pack a backpack and walk hundreds of miles to seek work.

Criminals? Yeah, every now and then we read the stories of an illegal committing a crime. But try to keep things in perspective. We have many, many home grown citizens who go down that road and they outnumber the number of illegals who screw up by at least 75% or more.

There are negatives and there are positives for documenting every illegal who is here in the states today. I'm sure if the same standards applied to the screening of Hispanics were applied to some of our own native born citizens, there would be a movement to deport many individuals as well.

I'm just a person who has interacted with several illegal immigrants and every single one of the people I have met and have come to know are decent, hard working people just trying to support themselves and their families.

They pay their bills on time. They contribute to our society. They own businesses.

I say let 'em stay and make them legal.

Whatever happens is out of my hands, so it's just merely my opinion and nothing more.

May 24, 2013 at 9:23 a.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Leaf said...

It's pretty sad when people read something on Wikipedia for two minutes and then think they are experts. I blame Hamilton County "education" and participation awards.

I'm sorry, your opinion is not worth just as much as an expert's if you are not highly intelligent and thoroughly educated in the subject.


Did I slam you a bit too hard on that Ponzi scheme situation and it embarrassed you? If so I’m truly sorry that you misinterpreted my efforts and that they lessened you in the estimation of you posting pals.

If you can find it in your heart to do so then please forgive me for any pain you may have felt due to your misunderstanding.

By the way are you interfering in any way, in your last sentence, that you could possibly be the “expert” you referenced? If so would you grace us with some examples of your “expertness”.

May 24, 2013 at 9:24 a.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "Did I slam you a bit too hard on that Ponzi scheme situation and it embarrassed you?"

You overestimate the impact of your level of involvement in this forum. You consistently screen posts for the sole purpose of controverting people.

"If so I’m truly sorry that you misinterpreted my efforts and that they lessened you in the estimation of you posting pals."

Ma'am...you're a legend in your own mind.

"If you can find it in your heart to do so then please forgive me for any pain you may have felt due to your misunderstanding."

Your Cut and paste and often improperly unattributed postings are the easiest posts to completely disregard, because the are not genuine, original, or interesting to read. More often than not, most of us have read them for ourselves from the original source.

"By the way are you interfering in any way, in your last sentence, that you could possibly be the “expert” you referenced? If so would you grace us with some examples of your “expertness”."

Expert or not, I value Leaf's posts and read every single one of them because they are personal words and opinions.

You've become a one-trick pony, hardly ever offering any personal insight or opinion in this forum, and thus, are easy to disregard.

Leaf...don't be bothered to respond. She's just trying to get a rise out of you.

May 24, 2013 at 9:39 a.m.
carlB said...

Leaf, It would help if the Congress were the experts, but we know that is not near the case. But the trouble is not the lack of experts, the decisions will be made on on political and on the corporate influence. What does the immigration problem and the global economy problem have in common? Can anyone come up with a time when there was not a problem on our Southern Border of some kind, even before that portion did not consist of STATEs in the USA?

Misuse of the word "Immigrant"? What types of immigrants come to the US and Canada ? There are many different types of immigrants that come to the US and Canada such as men, women, What types of http://zach15131.tripod.com/id1.html =============== There are many kinds of immigrants: legal, illegal, temporary ... http://agecon.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/philip-martin/docs/usimmigration.php

May 24, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.
Leaf said...

jt, I'm wasn't referring to you specifically, but your wiki quote did spur my comment. There are a lot of people who have a high opinion of their ideas, all evidence to the contrary. We need look no further than the article in today's paper referring to the Tennessee electrician who proposes to stop tornados with microwaves on jets. I'm embarassed for him, and the paper that would publish that article as if it were a serious proposal.

But no, my ego wasn't crushed by your cutting and pasting. Thanks for your concern. I know the definition of a Ponzi scheme; I was merely pointing out that matters of degree, matter. A firecracker and a hand grenade are both compacted gun powder in a shell, but you should be careful which one you choose on the Fourth of July.

May 24, 2013 at 9:45 a.m.
carlB said...

Leaf, People can form opinions based on the circumstances occurring around them and then verifying those by reading about them. It would help if the people elected to Congress were experts when making their decisions of what is the best for this Republic, But as we know Congress does not make many of their decisions on the best expert reality. Their decisions are usually based on POLITICS and what is the best for the Corporate desires. Can anyone come up with a time when there was not a problem on our Southern Border of some kind, even before that portion did not consist of STATEs in the USA?

What does the immigration problem and the global economy problem have in common?

Misuse of the word "Immigrant"? What types of immigrants come to the US and Canada ? There are many different types of immigrants that come to the US and Canada such as men, women, What types of? http://zach15131.tripod.com/id1.html ===== There are many kinds of immigrants: legal, illegal, temporary ... http://agecon.ucdavis.edu/people/faculty/philip-martin/docs/usimmigration.php We just never know what all of the elected supposedly knowledge people will do? IT ALL depends on which people they want to help the most.

May 24, 2013 at 9:59 a.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Easy123 said...

Jt6,

That report was co-written by Jason Richwine. Richwine is the guy that wrote his thesis on how Hispanics have low IQ's. I wouldn't believe anything the Heritage Foundation put out anyway, but the report you've cited is co-written by a overt racist.


It seems rather odd that I posted some of that same information and identified it as being from Heritage about 7 hours before the 1:06 post you are taking exception to. Why didn’t you attack it then and dispute the data. Could it be that you weren’t prepared to dispute it but when I posted some direct quotes from that study you were able to identify one of the co-authors and attack him rather that the substance. If so that would seem to indicate a bit of intellectual sluggishness.

I noticed no mention of I.Q. anywhere in that post or the study but the left wing couldn’t dispute it and their only option was to demonize one the writers and thus claim the whole thing as being the useless ravings of lunatics.

Mr. Richwine did write his doctoral dissertation at the Harvard University on the subject of I.Q. and its effect on immigration factors. However he developed none of the I.Q. date on different races but only included them in his work. He made no definitive claim as to the source of these differences whether genetic, environmental, or cultural.

However let me ask you a question that I think I can predict what would be the answer for about 80% of the population. Do East Asians on average have a higher I.Q. levels than Caucasians?

It sure seemed to trip up a certain left wing writer:

JOE SCARBOROUGH: Al, let me read this for you, Jason Richwine, a senior analyst for Heritage, who co-authored this immigration study, wrote this in his Harvard dissertation. Quote, "the average IQ Of immigrants in the United States is substantially lower than that of the white native population, and the difference is likely to persist over several generations." Al, it's --

AL HUNT: Boy, that's a swamp when you -- is that true of Asian immigrants?

May 24, 2013 at 10:07 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

If it was about IQ standards, Easy would have been deported. It's about legality.

May 24, 2013 at 10:37 a.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said ...

You consistently screen posts for the sole purpose of controverting people.


That is a great failing of mine in that I hardly ever post a comment that isn’t a response to another poster’s original thought. I seem to take other’s writings and and separate them out line by line and comment on each line even if it is some banal retort as:

you're a legend in your own mind

Do I have to type it?

Your posts speak volumes. I need not type a word.

I'm sure you do.

What a shame.

Interesting, but what's your point?

At least you can spell the word.

Was that a serious question?

Do you really think so?

Wow!! What do you base that brilliant assertion on?

I feel the need for a shower after reading that.

Wrong again Bozo.

Sure you are.

Sure you will.

You've got all kinds of little voices rolling around in your head, don't you?

Sure you won't.

Do you really think so?

We'll see.

Yada, yada, yada...

May 24, 2013 at 10:41 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Jt, like me, has your number, Alpy.

May 24, 2013 at 10:58 a.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "Jt, like me, has your number, Alpy."

Oh shut the hell up. You got your apology.

May 24, 2013 at 12:04 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Can you find it in your heart to forgive me? 😇

May 24, 2013 at 12:08 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

If we had a Republican president, the press would be all over the Syrian mess. But we don't, so they aren't. In fact, the policy in N.Africa seems to be no policy

May 24, 2013 at 12:20 p.m.
Leaf said...

IQ is correlated with genetics as well as socioeconomic status. Contrary to popular belief, it can increase and decrease throughout life with use, just like a muscle. Children who get good nutrition, lots of reading and education early in life have relatively higher IQs. IQ has less correlation with monetary success than looks for women, height for men, or hard work for anyone.

There is much more variation among individuals in a group than the average between groups. So I don't think a discussion regarding the IQ of particular groups of people is meaningful. Because we don't really want to start comparing IQ's by state or region now, do we? Since we live in Tennessee?

May 24, 2013 at 12:36 p.m.
carlB said...

PlainTruth said... If we had a Republican president, the press would be all over the Syrian mess. But we don't, so they aren't. In fact, the policy in N.Africa seems to be no policy

Reply: PlainTruth, What do you want the "press" to do that they have not done?
We have enough Republican Congress Persons trying to generate enough lies.

May 24, 2013 at 1:12 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Leaf said ...

IQ has less correlation with monetary success than looks for women, height for men, or hard work for anyone.


From the NYT:

Sorry, Strivers: Talent Matters

By DAVID Z. HAMBRICK and ELIZABETH J. MEINZ

Published: November 19, 2011

HOW do people acquire high levels of skill in science, business, music, the arts and sports? This has long been a topic of intense debate in psychology. Research in recent decades has shown that a big part of the answer is simply practice — and a lot of it.

Those findings have been enthusiastically championed, perhaps because of their meritocratic appeal: what seems to separate the great from the merely good is hard work, not intellectual ability.

But this isn’t quite the story that science tells. Research has shown that intellectual ability matters for success in many fields — and not just up to a point.

Exhibit A is a landmark study of intellectually precocious youths directed by the Vanderbilt University researchers David Lubinski and Camilla Benbow. They and their colleagues tracked the educational and occupational accomplishments of more than 2,000 people who as part of a youth talent search scored in the top 1 percent on the SAT by the age of 13. (Scores on the SAT correlate so highly with I.Q. that the psychologist Howard Gardner described it as a “thinly disguised” intelligence test.)

The remarkable finding of their study is that, compared with the participants who were “only” in the 99.1 percentile for intellectual ability at age 12, those who were in the 99.9 percentile — the profoundly gifted — were between three and five times more likely to go on to earn a doctorate, secure a patent, publish an article in a scientific journal or publish a literary work. A high level of intellectual ability gives you an enormous real-world advantage.

In our own recent research, we have discovered that “working memory capacity,” a core component of intellectual ability, predicts success in a wide variety of complex activities. In one study, we assessed the practice habits of pianists and then gauged their working memory capacity, which is measured by having a person try to remember information (like a list of random digits) while performing another task. We then had the pianists sight read pieces of music without preparation.

(cont)

May 24, 2013 at 2:01 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

(cont)

Not surprisingly, there was a strong positive correlation between practice habits and sight-reading performance. In fact, the total amount of practice the pianists had accumulated in their piano careers accounted for nearly half of the performance differences across participants. But working memory capacity made a statistically significant contribution as well (about 7 percent, a medium-size effect).

In other words, if you took two pianists with the same amount of practice, but different levels of working memory capacity, it’s likely that the one higher in working memory capacity would have performed considerably better on the sight-reading task.

It would be nice if intellectual ability and the capacities that underlie it were important for success only up to a point. In fact, it would be nice if they weren’t important at all, because research shows that those factors are highly stable across an individual’s life span. But wishing doesn’t make it so.

None of this is to deny the power of practice. Nor is it to say that it’s impossible for a person with an average I.Q. to, say, earn a Ph.D. in physics. It’s just unlikely, relatively speaking. Sometimes the story that science tells us isn’t the story we want to hear.

May 24, 2013 at 2:03 p.m.
Leaf said...

jtwhatever, Excellent demonstration of cutting and pasting. Do you have an actual point?

May 24, 2013 at 2:24 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

CarlB: Just report. That is all. Like I said, if it was under Dubya's watch, the press would be having canniption fits about "failed policy", etc. Do you dispute this?

May 24, 2013 at 2:27 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Leaf said...

jtwhatever, Excellent demonstration of cutting and pasting. Do you have an actual point?


I thought it was a fairly good rebuttal to your claim that on average looks, height, and hard work were greater determiners of success than talent/intelligence.

May 24, 2013 at 2:34 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Leaf said ...

There is much more variation among individuals in a group than the average between groups. So I don't think a discussion regarding the IQ of particular groups of people is meaningful.


The point of the Heritage study that started this rhubarb was not about the differences in I.Q. between particular groups. The point of the study was that the U.S. is incurring unnecessary extra costs due to our immigration policies.

The reason for this is that we are attracting lower I.Q. immigrants (although they never mention I.Q. due to its likelihood of producing great angst in the P.C. crowd) which on average will be less likely to be self sufficient and a greater drain on the treasury.

Jason Richwine’s doctoral dissertation does deal with I.Q. and he explains why the above is true. He explains that in countries where the compensation for occupations from low to high is narrow those at the upper end are more likely to immigrate to the countries like the U.S. where they will better their lot. Since, on average those people have higher I.Q.’s we should be seeking them to come to our country.

On the other hand in a countries where the opposite is true those at the low end and thus having on average lower I.Q.’s want to come to countries like the U.S. The majority of our illegal immigrants come from countries in this latter group so we are taking in people that will be a much greater expense to the country than their participation here will produces taxes to offset them.

May 24, 2013 at 3:09 p.m.
Leaf said...

jtwhatever said, "I thought it was a fairly good rebuttal to your claim that on average looks, height, and hard work were greater determiners of success than talent/intelligence."

I guessed that was what you were trying for. But no, it wasn't a good rebuttal. What you pasted was a news report dumbing down a study of the highest educational attainment of the top .1% IQ on the normal curve. That really has little to do with monetary success of the population at large like I mentioned. As well, a physics Ph.D. is not a ticket to great wealth.

May 24, 2013 at 3:17 p.m.
Leaf said...

Speaking of the uber-right wing Heritage Foundation:

A few years ago I remember seeing stickers with rebel flags on them gracing the bumpers of pickups that said, "Heritage, Not Hate."

I've since come to believe that "heritage" is a code word for "we don't want black people here." Does anyone else get that feeling?

What is the percentage of non-whites living in subdivisions with "heritage" in the names compared to the population at large? Can someone track that number down for me please? Thanks.

May 24, 2013 at 3:34 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Heritage equals hate? Very shallow, mr. Leafy. Especially for an intelligent, broadminded liberal.

May 24, 2013 at 4:09 p.m.
Leaf said...

Simplistic Truthiness just called me shallow. Interesting.

May 24, 2013 at 4:24 p.m.
carlB said...

PlainTruth said... CarlB: Just report. That is all. Like I said, if it was under Dubya's watch, the press would be having canniption fits about "failed policy", etc. Do you dispute this?

Reply:

What failed policy are you talking about? I know of a failed policy of that the Republicans had from the start of President Obama's first term. The News Media CERTAINLY GIVEN has given the Republicans a free ride on the seriousness of their failed policies/objectives to cause the failure of the recovery 2007 deep recession by directly trying to cause the failure of President Obama.

May 24, 2013 at 6:17 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

carlB. So you think Obama N.Africa policy is a good one. Seems to be "no policy". Or you can talk about dubya.

May 24, 2013 at 6:37 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Leaf said...

I guessed that was what you were trying for. But no, it wasn't a good rebuttal. What you pasted was a news report dumbing down a study of the highest educational attainment of the top .1% IQ on the normal curve. That really has little to do with monetary success of the population at large like I mentioned. As well, a physics Ph.D. is not a ticket to great wealth.


Some people’s problem is that they meet a tall, beautiful, hardworking woman with a high school GED that owns her own multi-million dollar company. Then they realize that the Physics Ph.D., down the street, that they know doesn’t earn more than $90,000 a year. A light, a dim light, goes off in their head and Presto a conclusion is born.

High School Diploma - High school graduates, on average, earn $1.2 million in lifetime income.

Bachelors degree - $2.1 million

Masters degree - $2.5 million:

Doctoral degree - $3.4 million

Professional degree - $4.4 million

"The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not.

The reason for this cognitive disconnect is that we have evolved brains that pay attention to anecdotes because false positives (believing there is a connection between A and B when there is not) are usually harmless, whereas false negatives (believing there is no connection between A and B when there is) may take you out of the gene pool.

Our brains are belief engines that employ association learning to seek and find patterns. Superstition and belief in magic are millions of years old, whereas science, with its methods of controlling for intervening variables to circumvent false positives, is only a few hundred years old. So it is that any medical huckster promising that A will cure B has only to advertise a handful of successful anecdotes in the form of testimonials.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-anecdotal-evidence-can-undermine-scientific-results


However I do know people with a professional degree that appear to be dumb as dirt. I wonder what that means?

You are welcome to provide something other than the undocumented rhetoric that usually passes as being informative.

May 24, 2013 at 7:17 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

It looks like carlB.'s volume goes past eleven.

May 24, 2013 at 7:20 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Leaf said...

Speaking of the uber-right wing Heritage Foundation:

A few years ago I remember seeing stickers with rebel flags on them gracing the bumpers of pickups that said, "Heritage, Not Hate."

I've since come to believe that "heritage" is a code word for "we don't want black people here." Does anyone else get that feeling?

What is the percentage of non-whites living in subdivisions with "heritage" in the names compared to the population at large? Can someone track that number down for me please? Thanks.


Very insightful. Well at least in relation to the way some people process information.

May 24, 2013 at 7:32 p.m.
klifnotes said...

Maximus said... Obama welocmes illegals with open arms

The rest of the world was correct, when it accused Americans of having both short and long term memory loss. As I recall, it was theBush who stood at that podium alongside Mexican Presidente Vincente Fox and invited those individuals to come one come ALL!! No RSVP or legal papers required. ;)

May 24, 2013 at 9:14 p.m.
klifnotes said...

PlainTruth said... If we had a Republican president, the press would be all over the Syrian mess.

Probably not, PT. If you recall it was under the Bush, Rumzeefeld and Chin-Cheney when the press attempted to report human rights violation being committed against Iraqi civilians at the hands of U.S. and allied forces in Iraq, that the military was accused of actually firing on the press. Yep! Bullets 'n tanks/ooHHH My! Not long after the Abu Ghraib scandal and other abuses would explode like a supernova spilling its guts all over and everywhere, revealing and exposing to the world for all to see just how inhumane and uncivilize civilized powerful nations really really behave at war.

May 24, 2013 at 9:25 p.m.
carlB said...

PlainTruth said... carlB. So you think Obama N.Africa policy is a good one. Seems to be "no policy". Or you can talk about dubya.

Reply:--- PlainTruth, I am talking about the only truely failed policies/objectives that the facts will back up.
Have you forgotten the Republicans number one objective to cause the failure of President Obama during his first term to prevent the voters from re-electibng him for a second term, regardless of the DAMAGE it would do to this Republic's economic well being?

May 24, 2013 at 9:45 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Oh my, carlB. Your letters are soooo big!

May 24, 2013 at 9:59 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Looks like Obama fatigue.

May 24, 2013 at 10:21 p.m.
dude_abides said...

PlainTruth said... "Oh my, carlB. Your letters are soooo big!"

Oh my, PainTooth. Your avatar (today) is just about spot on, except your hair is grey. Yes, I remember.

May 24, 2013 at 10:37 p.m.
alprova said...

jesse...please e-mail me @ alprova@comcast.net regarding the message you sent me on the 21st.

Just got it.

May 24, 2013 at 10:51 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

dude: I'm flattered.

May 24, 2013 at 11:40 p.m.
carlB said...

PlainTruth said... Oh my, carlB. Your letters are soooo big!

Reply:----PlainTruth, Glad you noticed and commented on the action occurring to the message after copying and then posting. Something happens to the message after posting it. What you see is what you get. It is not my doing. You can see it happeninng at other time also. The print is small before posting. We will see what happens this time.

May 25, 2013 at 12:39 a.m.
carlB said...

PlainTruth said...Not any large - bold print

Reply: If you want to continue to criticize the large-bold print, have a go at it. It's out of my control.

May 25, 2013 at 12:47 a.m.
please login to post a comment

videos »         

photos »         

e-edition »

advertisement
advertisement

Find a Business

400 East 11th St., Chattanooga, TN 37403
General Information (423) 756-6900
Copyright, Permissions, Terms & Conditions, Privacy Policy, Ethics policy - Copyright ©2014, Chattanooga Publishing Company, Inc. All rights reserved.
This document may not be reprinted without the express written permission of Chattanooga Publishing Company, Inc.