published Thursday, August 19th, 2010

Ground Zero-Tolerance

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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blackwater48 said...

If we abandon the Constitution, if we turn our backs on the principles this Country was founded upon, the terrorists win.

Don't envy restrictive governments and don't wish for America to become less tolerant.

Disagree with me all you want as long as you defend to the death my right (and yours, too, by the way) to say it. I am willing to do the same for you.

We're Americans, damn it.

August 19, 2010 at 12:25 a.m.
OllieH said...

Unfortunately, one does seem mean the other to many of those protesting the Mosque in lower Manhattan. Especially, Newt Gingrich, who actually compared building a mosque near Ground Zero to Nazis demonstrating near the Holocaust Museum.

The irrational reaction, and political opportunism surrounding this issue has been sickening to me, and only demonstrates how fragile our grasp is on the principles and ideals that make this such a great country.

Moderation and tolerance seems to be in such short supply lately. On almost any issue, there seems to be a segment of our society that's frighteningly close to becoming nothing more than a lynch mob. Tragically, demagogues like Newt Gingrich only make matter worse.

August 19, 2010 at 12:47 a.m.
GlacierClipper said...

Many Americans have lost touch with reality, especially when it comes to American Values which has held this country together many times in the past.

The Mosgue Syndrome is used by the politicians and so called leader of this country as a way to grab the spotlight and stage for graining attention for the next election.

The backers of the Mosque should find another place for their purposes.

August 19, 2010 at 1 a.m.
acerigger said...

I keep saying,,,this is typical republican smoke screen,mis-direction,look at that shiny object,election year clap-trap! what policy,ideas,solutions do the republicans have?would someone please post the gop's plans for America? something besides"stop Obama"! they have no plan except that.if they do,let's hear it!

August 19, 2010 at 1:04 a.m.
dougmusn said...

The common aphorism "live and learn" would be better inverted as "learn and live". With our logarithmically increasing ability to obliterate ourselves, if we do not learn, we will not live. Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". Why we return to the well of the divisive wedge issue should be a topic for study in human behavior.

LT Cable even sang it for us in South Pacific:

You've got to be taught To hate and fear, You've got to be taught From year to year, It's got to be drummed In your dear little ear You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid Of people whose eyes are oddly made, And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade, You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late, Before you are six or seven or eight, To hate all the people your relatives hate, You've got to be carefully taught!

All we need do is add religion to Rodgers & Hammerstein's warning...

Rodney King used his 15 minutes of fame to rephrase the same question: "Can't we all just get along?"

Indeed...

August 19, 2010 at 5:48 a.m.
woody said...

This one has to be commented on. This one goes directly to the 'core' of our very being.

I, too, believe in the "First Amendment", and especially the "right" to worship. However, as any realtor will gladly, and readily tell you, one of the most important decisions you will ever make is, "...location, location, location...."

As a Christian I am ready to back any Muslim's right to worship as they see fit, in this land where that "right" is guaranteed. And yet, as an American and an individual, I have to question the sensibility of this decision to build such a huge mosque in such close proximity to "Ground Zero."

I know it was not a 'religion' which brought about the devastation on "9/11", just a fanatical portion thereof. However, as some might say, "...just the appearance of an unwitting association might do more harm than good...."

Allowing the erection of this mosque would be the "right"(constitutional) thing to do, but would it be the 'right'(sensible) thing to do?

Just a thought, Woody

August 19, 2010 at 6:09 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

How about we let them build this thing only after the Saudis let Christians put up church buildings in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan (and Hindus temples, atheists cultural centers or Lenin tombs or whatever, and so on)? Can Islam be taught tolerance, or does tolerance require Jesus Christ rather than Mohammed and Stalin? www.lohr84.com>

anniebelle said...

Yes, AndrewBohr, I think we should be just as intolerant and un-christian as the Saudi's -- sounds like a grand plan.

August 19, 2010 at 6:22 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Another thought, I just saw an AP poll that says more Americans "MISTAKENLY" believe President Obama is a Muslim. I can't imagine where they would get that idea, no wait, maybe it's that constant hate drumbeat on Faux Snooze, and sounded around the country on their car radios by the likes of that bigoted Glenn (crybaby)Beck and drug addled Limbaugh. No the fact of the matter is, these morons never hear any truths because they revel in being stupid.

August 19, 2010 at 6:30 a.m.
ITguy said...

Tell me Andrew, did that post come from the Christian side of your brain or the Libertarian side?

August 19, 2010 at 7 a.m.
najones75 said...

Not one single person in this country has said that these people don't have a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to build this. Stop trying to make this a freedom of religion issue. There's tons of mosques in NY.

Its a matter of respect. Build you mega-fancy mosque...Just not in a place where the wounds of many New Yorkers have not healed yet. Can you imagine the uproar there would be if the KKK tried to build an office next door to the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing site in Birmingham? Can you imagine the uproar if someone tried to build a shooting range next to Columbine HS? They all have a right to do this. But, should they? Would you complain about that, if they did? Honestly?

I can't help but get the feeling that is just another politically correct bandwagon to jump on and complain about. It really does get old.

Its also very funny to hear Liberals talk about "abondoning the Constitution and the principles that this country was founded on". Seems to me that you've been doing that for some time now, guys.

Now I know what's going to happen now. The likes of anniebelle and many others will come on hear and personally trash me and other people with like opinions for our opinions. Reading some of your posts is mind-boggling. Instead of talking about issues and bringing up debatable points, all you can do is call names, like "crybaby" and "bigot" and "bible-beater" and "right-wing" and "racist" and "tea-bagger" and "gun-toater"...when in actuality, I have not mentioned anything of the such.

So flame on...cant' wait to read 'em.

Good day.

August 19, 2010 at 7:31 a.m.
EaTn said...

The Bush/Cheney regime used 9/11 for scare tactics and as an excuse to void our principles by invading a sovereign country not connected with 9/11 and disposing of many of our personal freedoms. The right-wingers are still trying to use scare tactics to advance their agenda, like the proposed NY mosque which is blocks away from ground zero and within our country's principles of freedom of religion.

August 19, 2010 at 7:38 a.m.
quietreader said...

This mosque near Ground Zero is a symbol of America's defeat at Muslim hands. Go to www.actforamerica.com and read Brigitte Gabriel's posts on what's really taking place in the Muslim community. You that believe the mosque is only an expression of religous freedom are ignorant or stupid, take your pick. There are over 200 mosques in New York City so you can't say it will deprive them of a place to worship. When there are more Muslims in this country than not and we have to live by sharia law you're going to wonder what the h--- happened.

August 19, 2010 at 7:43 a.m.
Livn4life said...

It is a fragmented society that implies people who stand up for what has brought death and devastation to their lives are questionable. I agree with najones75, it is not about Constitutional Rights. It is about what is the right thing to do. I assume those who see NO PROBLEM with the mosque are convinced the US is to blame for radicals using airplanes and innocent people to kill other innocent people and destroy a large amount of property. Sorry, that is not the case. They did it! What religion did they claim? In whose book is it written that to kill those not of like faith means you are a hero? In what religions are persons who willingly give up their lives killing others not of their faith considered martyred heroes? We know the answer. It is that religion, that book, people associated with that religion who are involved in the disregard for the harm caused in the inexcusable events of Sept. 11, 2001. This is why there is an uproar and the fragmentation will continue. Be for it, be against it. In either case, this divides our nation even more. A nation divided becomes weaker and weaker and weaker. Then what happens?

August 19, 2010 at 7:44 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

Fifteen of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one from Egypt (Atta), and one from Lebanon.

There is more tolerance for the terrorists when the gas tank needs filling.

All they have to do is remodel and make it a multicultural center and service station.

August 19, 2010 at 8:04 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

I've changed my mind. The Constitution be damned. Isn't this majority rule?

Actually, we have a similar situation here in the town where I live. About ten years ago a married woman and a married man decided to leave their marriages and run away together. They met up in a downtown hotel but apparently the woman had changed her mind. Did I mention they were both BAPTISTS?

Anyway, the man shot her to death. He then turned the gun on himself. A maid heard the shots and got the manager. When they opened the door they discovered that before the man killed himself he set the room on fire.

It was an historic hotel, wooden mostly, and it went up like a matchbox. Hundreds of people died. It was horrible, and ten years later people still come from across the Country to see where that tragic event happened.

And now, if you can believe it, the BAPTISTS want to build a "cultural center" a few blocks away from where that hotel stood. Unbelievable.

Sure, they might have the "right" to build their giant Cathedral but c'mon! Most of us here in town think it's inappropriate and disrespectful. Sure, we know all BAPTISTS aren't amoral mass murderers but whatever. There are other BAPTIST Churches in the area where they can perform their ceremonies or whatever they do. Who knows?

Anyway, we're rooting for you guys! If that "Mosque" gets "relocated" we'll have all the legal precedent we need to ban those murderous bastard BAPTISTS.

Power to the People!

August 19, 2010 at 8:54 a.m.
gm1220 said...

Funny reading opinions about bashing religion from those who know nothing about it. Also funny reading opinions from those who do not live in New York and lost family members due to this terrible criminal act. I say let the people of New York decide. Don't make it political. It's neither Republician or Democrat it's all about what the people of New York have to see and walk by everyday. The First Amemdment is wonderful, but not everyone needs to speak!

August 19, 2010 at 9:20 a.m.
anniebelle said...

And another thing, as Jon Stewart says, should Catholic churches be allowed to build next to a children's playground. Think about it! I love it when these holier than thous come out with all the unchristian thoughts about how our OWN AMERICAN citizens should be shunned. And as quietreader states - what if some cult but mine gets to be in charge of our citizenry?

August 19, 2010 at 9:36 a.m.
miraweb said...

The real clown in this whole discussion is the media.

Somehow the headline is "building a mosque at Ground Zero" when 1) it isn't a mosque 2) it is several blocks Ground Zero and 3) it is not being built by terrorists.

Should anyone dare point to the facts, then the media idiots stir the pot even more.

If someone wanted to build a monument to terrorism would they really start with a kitchen, a function hall, and a basketball court?

Really, people.

August 19, 2010 at 9:40 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Oh, and to one of those I speak of, gm1220, you have the gall to come on here and comment about people who don't live in NYC should just shut up. Our family lost our and our uncle in the towers that day. So careful where you tread gm1220.

August 19, 2010 at 9:41 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

I have read some really good points about the situation in this thread, but I still see all the media coverage of it mainly as a ploy by politicians to cause more chaos and divide the country a little bit further. The less and less bipartisan we become, the closer we get to civil war... again.

I honestly don't see a reason why we cannot allow this Mosque and still defend ourselves against terrorists. Some people seem to believe that if this building goes up, Islamic terrorists will start magically teleporting into the country via the Mosque and overthrow our nation.

It is the responsibility of the federal gov't to protect us from foreign enemies. If there are extremists hiding among us who want to use the Mosque in a negative way, Homeland Security will hopefully be doing their jobs in finding those people. We may not be happy with our gov't all the time, but if you cannot trust them to do their jobs, maybe you need to be working for them to correct the problem or else packing your bags for another country.

I also understand where people are coming from on the respect issue. That is indeed a touchy situation for all involved. I don't mean to seem like a jerk by saying this, but life isn't fair. People are offended and get their feelings hurt on a daily basis in this world, but to me, the Constitution outweighs the grief of people who were directly effected by the attacks that happened nine years ago. There is help to be had if someone is so grief striken that he/she cannot seem to cope with the peaceful Muslims, who didn't attack us, seeking a new Mosque.

August 19, 2010 at 10:03 a.m.
alprova said...

Woody wrote: "Allowing the erection of this mosque would be the "right"(constitutional) thing to do, but would it be the 'right'(sensible) thing to do?"


You just echoed the President's sentiments on the subject and look at the heat he has taken for dare saying it.

You too will now be considered to be a Muslim.

August 19, 2010 at 10:06 a.m.
sharkbat said...

Benito Mussolini:

"There will be a mosque in Rome only when a Roman Catholic church is permitted in Mecca."

August 19, 2010 at 10:29 a.m.
alprova said...

AndrewLohr wrote: "How about we let them build this thing only after the Saudis let Christians put up church buildings in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan (and Hindus temples, atheists cultural centers or Lenin tombs or whatever, and so on)? Can Islam be taught tolerance, or does tolerance require Jesus Christ rather than Mohammed and Stalin?"


We have no right to dictate that other countries accept religious tolerance in other nations. Those people in those countries are not United States citizens.

The people in this country who are Islamics ARE, presumably, United States citizens, and while you may be of the opinion that they are not worshiping the same God that you do, you would be wrong. You are also wrong in assuming that the vast majority of Islamics are not tolerant of your religious beliefs.

Islamics in Temecula, California bought a piece of land many years ago right next door to a Baptist church. Now that the Mosque is about to be built, the Pastor of the church is having spasms of intolerance and is working to stop the Mosque from being built.

CNN hosted an hour long debate between the Imam and the Pastor. The Imam, during that hour, attempted repeatedly to convince the Pastor that they worshiped very much the same God, but in different ways. He expressed intensely his desire to be nothing more than a neighbor.

The Pastor? He spent most of the time proselytizing and denouncing the Imam for his beliefs. And to top it off, the Pastor accused the Imam and HIS religion of being intolerant of other religions.

The more hard line Christians write on this subject, the more they expose their hypocrisy relative to their own religious intolerance.

It's bordering on complete ignorance of what Christianity is supposed to represent. And I will not stand next to anyone who expresses such ignorance.

Such people are oblivious to their own religious intolerance, but then that is not anything that has not been ongoing for quite sometime. The only thing that is different is that the focus of attention has been diverted from those who are usually the target of intolerance, to those of another religious faith.

And it still stinks to high Heaven.

August 19, 2010 at 10:29 a.m.
acerigger said...

Quietreader,

This mosque near Ground Zero is NOT a symbol of America's defeat at Muslim hands. All this "pearl-clutching"&"fainting-couch"rhetoric is the symbol of America's defeat. Fear is the mind killer!

August 19, 2010 at 10:39 a.m.
alprova said...

najones75 wrote: "Its a matter of respect. Build you mega-fancy mosque...Just not in a place where the wounds of many New Yorkers have not healed yet."


The people who would build and worship in that Mosque had NOTHING at all to do with 9/11, anymore than any other member of other churches located in the same vicinity of Ground Zero.

Why should they have to bow to any whims of those who ignorantly blame Islam for what happened?


"Can you imagine the uproar there would be if the KKK tried to build an office next door to the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing site in Birmingham?"


Apples and oranges. You're comparing a group of cowards who hide behind bed sheets to that of an established religion that has been around for eons, and who are no more responsible for what happened at Ground Zero, than the man in the moon was.


"Can you imagine the uproar if someone tried to build a shooting range next to Columbine HS? They all have a right to do this. But, should they? Would you complain about that, if they did? Honestly?"


Again, in that scenario, two very disturbed teenagers took it upon themselves to shoot and kill innocent people. Blaming responsible gun owners for what happened is laughable and a more than silly comparison, as well as quite a departure from the reality of the situation.

This entire debate has become an issue of tangents, and there now is no limit to how far off the beaten track that people will go to make pointless arguments to justify harassing people of a religion that they do not understand, number one, and how ignorant it is to blame an entire religion for what a group of insane idiots took it upon themselves to do, in the name of Allah.

August 19, 2010 at 10:51 a.m.
hambone said...

There are hundreds of mosques in the New York area for the same reason there are hundreds of Baptist Churches in Tennessee. They can't get along with each other ether!!

August 19, 2010 at 11:12 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

You can't argue with a "True Believer."

In the face of facts they cite the word of god.

Logic is just the Devil testing their faith.

Their answer to any irrefutable fact is, "I don't believe that."

You can all just save your breath.

August 19, 2010 at 11:12 a.m.
alprova said...

Livn4life wrote: "I assume those who see NO PROBLEM with the mosque are convinced the US is to blame for radicals using airplanes and innocent people to kill other innocent people and destroy a large amount of property."


Why would you ASSume that? 19 individual men boarded those planes, hijacked them, killed themselves and several thousand innocent people. Blaming anyone else for their actions is baseless. Blaming their declared religion of choice is even more baseless.

To suggest that because anyone rejects the notion that Islam is to be blamed for what 19 men did on that day MUST be akin to blaming ANYONE in the United States for what happened, is a completely stupendous statement.


"Sorry, that is not the case. They did it! What religion did they claim?"


What religion has been claimed by those who have killed family planning clinic workers and doctors?

All were based in Christianity. The most recent incident of that happening occurred in a church. Do you endorse what they did? Is it fair to say that Christianity is a violent religion, based on the acts of those individuals?

I have a very bad taste in my mouth, because I read the cheers by so many "Christians" that were posted across the web after Dr. George Tiller was killed in that church on May the 31st of last year.


"In whose book is it written that to kill those not of like faith means you are a hero? In what religions are persons who willingly give up their lives killing others not of their faith considered martyred heroes? We know the answer."


So do I.

The Bible is FILLED with passages that refer to murder and many circumstances that dictate that people are to be immediately put to death, not by God, but at the hands of Earthly men.

Gather sticks on the Sabbath is but one one of them. The Lord commanded Moses to publicly stone to death a man for doing just that. (Numbers 15:32-35)

Do you really want to go down that road?

"It is that religion, that book, people associated with that religion who are involved in the disregard for the harm caused in the inexcusable events of Sept. 11, 2001."


Ignorance is indeed bliss, isn't it?

Please cite any American follower of the Islamic faith, who has indeed "excused" or "disregarded" what happened on 9/11.

And please...please...don't cite any writings that emanate from any Christian based religious blogs as evidence. I want credible sources of evidence that so much as one Muslim in THIS NATION has in any manner held those 19 men up as "heroes."

I await with baited breath your response.

August 19, 2010 at 11:48 a.m.
alprova said...

anniebelle wrote: "...as Jon Stewart says, should Catholic churches be allowed to build next to a children's playground."


I laughed for a full 30 minutes when I saw that. In my opinion, that has been the most profound comparison made to date, to refute the arguments that people are making against the opening of the Mosque.

August 19, 2010 at 11:52 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

alprova, Jesus gave us new laws in the New Testament. The laws of Moses are no longer valid in many respects. I assure you, the concept of 'eye for an eye' is no longer what we are to live by. We are instead to turn the other cheek and offer it up to your enemy as well as the first one they slapped (figuratively, of course). The Bible also tells us, in the New Testament, that we are to live by and support the man-made governmental laws of our respective lands as well as God's laws.

August 19, 2010 at 12:11 p.m.
EaTn said...

Many of us Christians have at one time or another had a Muslim to thank for saving us or a loved one from sickness, disease or even death- there are many Muslims Americans in the medical profession in this country. We don't have to agree with their religion nor the multitude of others in this country, but we should respect all since this is what our country has been about for over two hundred years.

August 19, 2010 at 12:18 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Al

I think everything you said in your response to livn was accurate - except for the last bit.

Surely you don't really believe there wasn't a single muslim who didn't cheer 9/11? Maybe some of these guys perhaps?

http://www.cfr.org/publication/11509/american_muslims_and_the_threat_of_homegrown_terrorism.html

And it's "bated" breath. Mork from Ork refered to it as "a worm on my tongue" though. :)

August 19, 2010 at 12:21 p.m.
Oz said...

I wonder how many construction workers in New York would work on the project?

August 19, 2010 at 12:28 p.m.
najones75 said...

Alprova, you haven't really done anything to dispute my point. Whether the stories are not exactly the same doesn't change the FACT that many people unjustly lost their lives at each location due to a few screwed up people, the building of such structures at each of the sites mentioned is insensitive, could be construded as innappropriate and will ultimately do nothing more than divide people. Again, there's nothing in the law to stop it. That's fine and I will keep on livin' no matter what happens. I just think its tacky as hell.

anniebelle, I see you haven't disappointed in my earlier assertion. You really have nothing to say, other than trash people who don't think as you do. Never once do you ever make a real point, either for or against what the debate is about. There's lots of people here that I don't agree with, but they at least can make some sort an argument on a topic. Very angry woman...

August 19, 2010 at 12:47 p.m.
alprova said...

This just in!!

PLANS to build a state-of-the-art library next to Republican Sarah Palin are causing outrage across mainstream America.

Almost 40% of Americans still support the idea of books. Campaigners have described the project as insensitive and a deliberate act of provocation by people with brains.

The issue is forming a dividing line in advance of November's mid-term congressional elections with candidates being forced to declare whether they have ever been to a library or spoken to someone who has books in their home.

Meanwhile President Obama has caused unease within his own Democratic party by endorsing the library and claiming that not everyone who reads books is responsible for calling Mrs Palin a 'nutjob nightmare of a human being.'

Bill McKay, a leading member of the right-wing Tea Party movement, said, "Sarah Palin is a hallowed place for Americans who can't read. How is she going to feel knowing that every day there are people going inside a building to find things out for themselves, having lucid thoughts, right in the very shadow of her amazing physique?"

He added: "Our founding fathers intended for every building in this country to be a church containing one book, written by God, that would be read out in a strange voice by a man behind a pulpit, in a shiny suit, who would also tell you who you were allowed to kill.

"Building a library next to Mrs Palin is just plain wrong."

August 19, 2010 at 12:48 p.m.
EaTn said...

Oz said "I wonder how many construction workers in New York would work on the project?"

I wonder how many illegal construction workers would refuse to help build a Mosque, or even care?

August 19, 2010 at 12:52 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Indian wrote so much garbage it's hard to know where to begin.

Obama proved that he's a Muslim because he cited the First Amendment to the Constitution?

Indian, do you know anything about the Constitution?

Obama is a foreigner and we need to send him back to, I don't know, I guess Hawaii?

If we stand united we can take the Country back from whom? Who is 'We' and who is 'Them?'

I hope this was all a sarcastic rant to show the idiocy of some people, but if it wasn't I thoroughly enjoyed mocking you.

August 19, 2010 at 1 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Surely you don't really believe there wasn't a single muslim who didn't cheer 9/11? Maybe some of these guys perhaps?"


Nice try. Even that article states that American Muslims are not being treated fairly when investigations surround the possibility of home-grown terrorists.

And, you're still not tying any extremists, past or present, to any traditional Mosques that exist in this country. Many have been here for decades.

And again, the CFR article is in no manner proof that American Muslims endorsed in any manner, what those 19 men did on 9/11.


"And it's "bated" breath."


While I find it rude to point out mistakes of others when it comes to departures of traditional written communication, I am quite prepared to respond to your correction.

Both spellings of the word are acceptable in the year 2010, and the spelling, "baited," is now far more common.

http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-bai1.htm

August 19, 2010 at 1:08 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

indian's insane rants shows signs of long term untreated syphilis... Hitler had the syphilis and was prone to the same style outbursts

August 19, 2010 at 1:08 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

naaaaw...indian's tinfoil hat is too heavy. Too many propellers.

August 19, 2010 at 1:24 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

My faith in man's inhumanity is restored.

August 19, 2010 at 1:30 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Al

Good grief - did you not see the smiley thing? I would have thought the reference to Mork would have given it away. I find it rude, or sad, when someone is wound so tight they take offense at imagined provocations. So there. jeez

If you think NOT ONE muslim in this country applauded 9/11, you believe in the tooth fairy too. I'm sure 99% of the didn't. I said it was "maybe" one of these guys - not trying to tie anything to anything. If I look hard enough, I'm sure I could find one example. It's not worth the effort to argue something so inane.

Regardless, you were right on with the rest of it.

Have a nice day.

August 19, 2010 at 1:32 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I suspect there were Christians that said we had it coming, and they celebrated what they thought was God's punishment for our fallen country.

August 19, 2010 at 1:36 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Its also very funny to hear Liberals talk about "abondoning the Constitution and the principles that this country was founded on". Seems to me that you've been doing that for some time now, guys. Username: najones75 | On: August 19, 2010 at 7:31 a.m.


Both are guilty of this and they are on the same team in case you did not know.

August 19, 2010 at 1:39 p.m.
FM_33 said...

I wonder how many construction workers in New York would work on the project? Username: Oz | On: August 19, 2010 at 12:28 p.m.


A lot because the contract is paying out some major dcash to get the job done.

August 19, 2010 at 1:41 p.m.
anniebelle said...

Nocahones - I see you have not read what I'm saying to inform people of the lies being put forth to the citizenry of this country. And you're darned right I'm angry -- my father gave his life in WWII at the age of 28 (I never even got to meet him); my brother in Vietnam at the age of 23, now my grandson has arrived home from his fourth tour -- 3 to Iraq and 1 in Afghanistan. He's finally home, well partially, just missing two legs and half his brain. All this to try to protect un-American scaredy cats such as yourself. Yes I'm angry that this country is being trashed by uneducated, uninterested so-called Americans like you. See if you can put your brain to work and see why I'm mad as hell at the cowards that sit at their keyboards and make up the most unbelievable hateful lies about our, yes Christian, President. If any of you have access to true facts, you'll find all my statements are fact, but I don't expect you to do so.

August 19, 2010 at 1:46 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Who ever thumb down my " Username: FM_33 | On: August 19, 2010 at 1:39 p.m." post go and do your homework and you will see that both partys have exspanded government and out of control spending.

They are both guilty of it and in local elections DNC has given money to GOP and the other way around. Look at some of the races here in good old middle tennessee to make the point.

They are both riding on the same bus heading in the same direction.

August 19, 2010 at 1:46 p.m.
najones75 said...

Wow

August 19, 2010 at 1:56 p.m.
FM_33 said...

yes Christian, President. If any of you have access to true facts, you'll find all my statements are fact, but I don't expect you to do so. Username: anniebelle | On: August 19, 2010 at 1:46 p.m.


Mr. Jeremiah Wright = Mentor James Cone ( Black Nationalist / Marxist )

Louis Farrakhan = Mentor NOI ( Attended The Millon Man March / Gave money to the NOI for years )

Bill Ayers = Marxist Communist ( Wanted to over throw the United States government )

That my dear is the true facts about some of Obama's friends that helped him get into the office besides the GOP party.

August 19, 2010 at 1:57 p.m.
Snooksie said...

For me its not about the 1st Amemdment or intolerance of other religions. I am a christian but I dont care if those around me are or not. Thats their choice.You cant force something on people if they dont want it. My issue with this is 1st. what the Imam said right after 9/11 on 60 min saying Bin Laden was born by Americans and that it happened on 9/11 was at the hands of Americans. 2nd the fact that they would take money from Iraq and Saudi to fund this mosque when those were the very countries who funded those who did what they did on 9/11. 3rd the fact the this Imam wants America to be more sharia compliant. The third one is what bothers be the most because becoming more sharia compliant would mean going back on the very thing Americans have faught for and are still fighting for today. When it comes to tolerance do you think they will be tolerant of gays and lesibians or womens rights. The answer is no. Under Sharia law if a woman is raped she must have 4 male witnesses. Under sharia law men and women are murdered for being gay. There will be not equality for men and women because in the muslim religion women have no rights and that isnt going to change just because they are in America.

August 19, 2010 at 2:15 p.m.
Sailorman said...

lkeithlu

"I suspect there were Christians that said we had it coming, and they celebrated what they thought was God's punishment for our fallen country."

I suspect you're right.

August 19, 2010 at 2:17 p.m.
whoknows said...

Wow... it finally cools off out side, but it sure does heat up on here.

Should they build a mosque near ground zero? Well, if they bought the land, they can build whatever they want, as long as it meets code. I do think that it can definitely be a slap in the face, and if I were the Imam, or whoever is wanting to do this, I would have more sense not to try it. It is just asking for trouble. But, no one can tell them they can or cannot build it. Especially not the government. They have no horse in this race. I do feel, however, that if they build a mosque there, it will create more violence in the area. Not violence from radical Islamists (or not so radical) but violence from some of the ignorant fools who think that all of Islam is to blame for the actions of a few.

August 19, 2010 at 3:03 p.m.
eeeeeek said...

It isn't a mosque... it's a cultural center that happens to have a prayer room. I'm sure it's only there for those who lose track of time and don't make it to the real mosque that already exists down the block.

August 19, 2010 at 3:27 p.m.
whoknows said...

Thanks eeeeeek. Didn't know that. I haven't really followed the story at all. But if that's the case, then what's the habub about? People just need to get over it.

August 19, 2010 at 3:42 p.m.
FM_33 said...

it will create more violence in the area. Not violence from radical Islamists (or not so radical) but violence from some of the ignorant fools who think that all of Islam is to blame for the actions of a few. Username: whoknows | On: August 19, 2010 at 3:03 p.m.


How right you are and the fact that the Imams will not screen out the Al-Qaida elements in time before they plan a major attack on the country.

Now in specking about what Louis Farrakhan has said about these no good elements in question. He has said many times that the violence in Islam needs to stop but remeber the sect of Islam that he specks for does not share the same views that the worldwide movement may share. this is where the conflict starts and stops on Islam.

August 19, 2010 at 3:43 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Mr. Jeremiah Wright = Mentor James Cone ( Black Nationalist / Marxist )

Louis Farrakhan = Mentor NOI ( Attended The Millon Man March / Gave money to the NOI for years )

Bill Ayers = Marxist Communist ( Wanted to over throw the United States government )

That my dear is the true facts about some of Obama's friends that helped him get into the office besides the GOP party. Username: FM_33 | On: August 19, 2010 at 1:57 p.m. _________-

The reason for this post is i was just questioning his walk in the Chirstian faith. Because if you look at Mr.Obama's past record you would think that he was many different religions then a person who was just waliking in Christ Jesus .

For a long time most people in the Nation Of Islam thought of him as a F.O.I member so to speak. He did support them for a few yaers and that is a fact weather you like it or not Anniebelle.

Jeremiah Wright was also a formor Black Muslim until he converted to the James Cone mode of thinking. They have maintained a long relationship for years in Chicago and talk every now and then. I do not know what period Mr. Wright was a Black Muslim but i believe that he was in membership around in the late 60's when Elijah Muhammad was still alive.

This is covered in books now being wrote about the early Obama period before he became president and you can check this out for your self at your local library or major chain bookstore near you.

Well www.amazon.com is always a good back up when those first two don't work to your liking.

August 19, 2010 at 3:56 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Wow Username: najones75 | On: August 19, 2010 at 1:56 p.m.


When the truth comes to the masses it is a .....WOW.

August 19, 2010 at 4 p.m.
dss said...
August 19, 2010 at 4:16 p.m.

This one is for dewby, if he gets it. The rest is for those who repeat the talking point lies from the White House and Leftist environs, that Rauf is a "moderate" and "most Muslims are", the Mosque that Rauf called a "mosque and a community center" is just that and not a "cultural center" because no Infidels will be allowed, and finally, that we should be looking at the job situation, this is just a "diversion". The job situation has been looked at-for a good 4-5 years. And it's still going nowhere. This 'issue' needs to be brought out into the open air. Good thing.

"By the rivers dark I wandered on. I lived my life in Babylon.

And I did forget My holy song: And I had no strength In Babylon.

By the rivers dark Where I could not see Who was waiting there Who was hunting me.

And he cut my lip And he cut my heart. So I could not drink From the river dark.

And he covered me, And I saw within, My lawless heart And my wedding ring,

I did not know And I could not see Who was waiting there, Who was hunting me.

By the rivers dark I panicked on. I belonged at last to Babylon.

Then he struck my heart With a deadly force, And he said, This heart: It is not yours.

And he gave the wind My wedding ring; And he circled us With everything.

By the rivers dark, In a wounded dawn, I live my life In Babylon.

Though I take my song From a withered limb, Both song and tree, They sing for Him.

Be the truth unsaid And the blessing gone, If I forget My Babylon.

I did not know And I could not see Who was waiting there, Who was hunting me.

By the rivers dark, Where it all goes on; By the rivers dark In Babylon".

(Leonard Cohen, Poet/musician)

August 19, 2010 at 4:36 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

FM_33 wrote:

"When the truth comes to the masses it is a .....WOW.

How would you know?

All I see I from your posts is poorly spelled innuendo butchered with bad grammar.

Sometimes you stumble onto a cogent point but most of the time you write like a moron.

Maybe you and Dewey are the same dude.

August 19, 2010 at 4:37 p.m.

Ali Sina on Ground Zero Mosque, Cordova House

"On 9/11 2001, Muslim jihadists butchered 3000 Americans. Nine years later, a Muslim Imam wants to build a 13 story monument two blocks away from the site of that carnage.

Many Americans, particularly the New Yorkers and the families of the victims of that tragedy are outraged at the insensitivity, bordering arrogance of Faisal Abdul Rauf, the imam behind this project...

When in 2007, Rauf published his book in the Muslims world, he did not call it What is Right with America is What is Right with Islam. He called it A Call to Prayer from the WTC rubble: Islamic Da’wa from the Heart of America Post 9/11.

“....What is Right with Islam is What is Right with America [2004].” [Rauf] ..argued “The American political structure is Sharia compliant. For America to score even higher on the ‘Islamic’ or ‘Sharia compliance’ scale America would need to do two things. Invite the voices of all religions in shaping the nations’ practical life, and allow religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws.”

The truth is that the American constitution and the Sharia law are opposite of each other. It is interesting however, how Rauf composed his statement. He did not say that the Sharia is in compliance with the US constitution, but the other way round. By doing so he wanted to establish the superiority of the Sharia over the US constitution.

The fact is that the American Constitution and the Sharia differ fundamentally. For example, the Sharia does not recognize

Freedom of speech, Freedom of conscience Equality of all people before the law Equality of the rights of women with men

Of course, as an Imam he can’t reject the Sharia. He will reject the constitution when not in compliance with the Sharia.

There is nothing in the constitution of the USA that is in agreement with the Sharia law. You cannot find two documents more diametrically opposed to each other.

Think about stoning the adulterers, killing the apostates, hanging or beheading the homosexuals, chopping the hands of the thief, imposing a dress code on people and flogging them for consuming alcohol. These are all part of the Sharia law and against the Constitution. You can’t serve two masters. Muslims will have to either submit to the Sharia law or to the US constitution. If they submit to one, they are in violation of the other.

But the disturbing part in Rauf’s statement is the fact that he compares Islamic laws with the secular laws of America. This is proof that his goal is to supplant the latter with the former. Statements such as this make it clear that the ambition of Muslims in America is political.

August 19, 2010 at 4:43 p.m.

"Rauf ignores the fact the in the USA religion and state are kept apart. When he says “America would need invite the voices of all religions in shaping the nations’ practical life, and allow religious communities more leeway to judge among themselves according to their own laws,” he is not talking about Jews, Christians or other religions. In fact adherents of these faiths want to keep state and religion separate. Rauf wants these rights solely for Muslims. He aspires to convert America into an Islamic theocracy.

The Sharia law does not just regulate the rights of the Muslims but also the non-Muslims must submit to it. How is that going to work according to this imam? Well that part will have to wait until Muslims become the majority and convert America into a Sharia compliant state, like Saudi Arabia. Then no one has any right anymore. As far as Muslims are concerned the Sharia law is from God and it supersedes all constitutions that are written by men.

The implication is grave. It means that Muslims who uphold the Sharia law are a subversive group whose aim is to destroy our system of government. Muslims present Islam as a religion whereas their agenda is political and subversive.

When in 2007, Rauf published his book in the Muslims world, he did not call it 'What is Right with America is What is Right with Islam'. He called it 'A Call to Prayer from the WTC rubble: Islamic Da’wa from the Heart of America Post 9/11'.

This is the kind of talk that resonates in Muslim world. The message that Rauf wants to send to Americans is that the Sharia is very similar to their constitution and hence they should not fear Islam. But his message to his fellow coreligionists is different. To them he is announcing that a da’wa is being issued to Americans from the rubble of 9/11.

What is Da’wa? Da’wa means invitations to submit to Islam. Jihad has two phases. The first phase is the invitation. Disbelievers are to be warned first and given a chance to submit. If they refuse the next stage is qital (fighting). Da’wa and qital are integral parts of jihad.

August 19, 2010 at 4:47 p.m.
FM_33 said...
  1. I realize this link will burn many of your eyes since Bill O’Reilly is on the video, but he is not the featured speaker. Listen to the words of Raheel Raza: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHg9gzo9o... The debate has been framed to be between liberals and Muslims vs. conservatives (you know, uneducated, Bible-thumping, right-wing kooks that we are—see noted author Dewayne Callahan for a very fair and enlightening portrayal of this group). But what about Muslim opposition to its construction?

  2. Nancy Pelosi apparently is going to investigate who is funding the opposition to the mosque’s construction. I’m not getting paid to oppose it, Nancy. Just thought I’d let you know. Username: dss | On: August 19, 2010 at 4:16 p.m.


I Mr.Dss will try to answer youir questions in this matter sir.

  1. Bill O'Reilly has fallen off the independent wagon for years because he has stayed why to long for the cheese $$$ on the FOX news network.... LOL...which i like to say it is (aka) * Fanatics Over Exposed *. He could have left that network and made a huge impact for the 3rd party viewpoint but has become a puppet on a very short string and not worth wasting the time to listen to or watch any more at all in my humble opinion.

  2. Nancy Pelosi is looking out for her political future in Washington . She as you well may know will make any move she has to do to get those votes from the Islamic community to keep the Democrats in power ,and to keep winning elections for the party for the next 1000 years or so.

The 1st question i will have to think it over for a minute but let me get back to you on that one.

August 19, 2010 at 4:48 p.m.
FM_33 said...

FM_33 wrote:

"When the truth comes to the masses it is a .....WOW.

How would you know?

All I see I from your posts is poorly spelled innuendo butchered with bad grammar.

Sometimes you stumble onto a cogent point but most of the time you write like a moron.

Maybe you and Dewey are the same dude. Username: blackwater48 | On: August 19, 2010 at 4:37 p.m.


LOL.......i must be the smartest moron you ever read. keep reading because you must be learning something new that you never knew before.

August 19, 2010 at 4:50 p.m.

"The Cordova House will be the ultimatum, a line drawn in the sand for the Americans. After the da’wa is issued, Americans will have two choices: They must either submit to Islam or face more terrorism.

What is in the name? The choice of the name is also significant. Cordova House may mean nothing to Americans, but for Muslims it is fraught with meaning. Cordova is a city in south Spain. Muslims armies invaded Spain in 711, massacring countless people. Then they converted the biggest church in Cordova into a mosque.

Building mosques over churches, synagogues and temples of the conquered people began during the life of Muhammad who converted the temple of the Arabs in Mecca into an Islamic mosque. Muslims have been doing the same ever since. Numerous Hindu temples, churches, synagogues and Zoroastrian temples were converted into mosques. The objective is twofold” To humiliate the defeated people and to establish the supremacy of Islam.

The mosque over the temple of Solomon in Jerusalem is one example. When Muslims conquered the Byzantine Empire they converted the biggest church in the Christian empire into a mosque. In India over 2000 mosques are built on Hindu temples.

A mosque, a place from which da’wa is issued, built over the rubble of the WTC is a hint to Muslims that jihad is on the march and that Islam is advancing and conquering new territories. The conquest of Cordova ushered Muslims into an era of opulence, the so called Golden Age of Islam. It is therefore a symbol of Islamic conquest and supremacy, which Muslims recall nostalgically.

Who is Faisal Abdul Rauf? Imam Rauf tries to present himself as a moderate Muslim. Far from it! He has made statements that show he has very radical views. Right after 9/11 Rauf blamed the victims and said, “United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened on 9/11.”

He also said “We [Americans] have been an accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. In fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden was made in the USA.” Rauf supports Muslim Brotherhood, the same group that wants to destroy America from within, and has never condemned Hezbollah or Hamas terrorist organizations.

August 19, 2010 at 4:51 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Maybe you and Dewey are the same dude. Username: blackwater48 | On: August 19, 2010 at 4:37 p.m.


You must not be reading either one of our post because if you where you would know the difference between us 2.

FM_33 = Independent

Dewey60 = Moderate Democrat

BIG DIFFERNCE PAL !!!

  • Thank you *
August 19, 2010 at 4:54 p.m.

"In October 2009, the Former Muslims United sent Rauf and his wife the Pledge of Freedom that states Muslims should not be killed if they choose to leave Islam. The couple refused to sign it. So much for their tolerance. Also he has never made it public where the $100 million dollars financing comes from.

There are 2300 mosques in the USA and over 200 in New York. There is no need for another one, especially in the proximity of where Muslims massacred thousands of Americans. Why this place? The choice of the Ground Zero is no accident. Muslims have chosen this spot to a) thumb their nose at Americans and at the families of the victims and b) send a message to Muslim world announcing Islam’s victory over the “Great Satan.”

The Cordova House will have a huge symbolic significance for Muslims and it encourages them to enlist in jihad and make the ultimate objective of Islam, which is world domination come true.

Rauf is not a man of peace. He has made very inflammatory comments, such as “one man’s terrorist is another man’s hero.”

In an article entitled, “Sharing the Essence of Our Beliefs,” published in the Al-Ghad Newspaper in Jordan, 5/9/2009, translated by Walid Shoebat, Rauf wrote: If someone in the Middle East cries out, “where is the law”, he knows that the law exists. The only law that the Muslim needs exists already in the Koran and the Hadith.

People asked me right after the 9/11 attack as to why do movements with political agendas carry [Islamic] religious names? Why call it ‘Muslim Brotherhood’ or ‘Hezbollah (Party of Allah)’ or ‘Hamas’ or ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’? I answer them this—that the trend towards Islamic law and justice begins in religious movements, because secularism has failed to deliver what the Muslim wants, which is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

Rauf is not talking about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all the people. According to Islam these rights belong only to Muslims. The non-Muslims must suffer defeat, ignominy and dhimmitude.

Follow the Money Trail Why would Mayor Bloomberg and the majority of the council members of the New York City support such an offensive project? The answer is, follow the money trail.

August 19, 2010 at 4:55 p.m.

"I am not accusing anyone, but my hunch tells me to be suspicious of anyone who strongly defends Islamic interests over the interests of his own country. The Saudi and the Iranian regimes spend large sums of money buying the loyalty of politicians and the academicians in the west. The western supporters of Islam are not often mere useful idiots. In many cases they are well paid traitors.

An example that comes to mind is the US congressman Mark D. Siljander who began his career as a zealous evangelical Christian and then went on to write a book, A Deadly Misunderstanding, to “bridge the Muslim-Christian divide.” He argued that Christian and Muslim religious texts are surprisingly compatible, when studied in their original languages. This is of course a blatant lie. The truth came out on July 7, 2010, when Siljander pleaded guilty to two counts of receiving money from Muslims and supporting Muslim terrorists. He was indicted in January 2008 on charges of money laundering, conspiracy and obstruction of justice.

Throughout the history, Islamic forces have deceived their victims, making them think Islam and Muslims are peace-loving, only later to find the opposite. Another example of this deception/treason happened in A.D. 635 when Damascus fell to Muslims because they deceived and bribed its Bishop who opened the city gates at night.

Anytime a politician defends Islam under the guise of “tolerance” and “community cohesion,” I think about money. Chances are you’ll find a skeleton in their closet. I am not accusing anyone in particular. I don’t know the facts. But I won’t be surprised if one day we find out that the politicians who defend the construction of this Islam Trojan horse on Ground Zero were paid for their support.

Mayor Bloomberg calls patriotic Americans who don’t want this mosque, “un-American.” He should know that it is very American to defend the American constitution against any creeping alien ideology whose adherents do not hide their intention to bring down America and “sabotage its miserable house from within.” What is un-American is to open the gates of the country to its sworn enemies. Whether the Mayor is bribed, or he is merely a useful idiot is not for me to decide. It is one or the other and in either case he is not qualfied to be the mayor of New York. But one thing is certain and that is his support for Islamists against the interests of America is very un-American".

August 19, 2010 at 4:56 p.m.
FM_33 said...

The mosque over the temple of Solomon in Jerusalem is one example. Username: canaryinthecoalmine | On: August 19, 2010 at 4:51 p.m.


Solomon = Hiram Abliff fighting the 3 ruffins.

Mason 33rd degree knowledge blackwater48 can you relate homeboy !

August 19, 2010 at 4:57 p.m.

'Ground Zero' imam not a moderate Chad Groening- 8/19/2010

"A former member of the Palestine Liberation Organization has monitored Arabic language traffic in Middle East that reveals the controversial "Ground Zero" mosque imam is not a moderate at all. Walid Shoebat, a convert from Islam to Christianity who is now an outspoken critic of Islam, recently translated an Arabic language interview conducted by Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf. He believes the imam's words should be alarming as they indicate what the world will look like if he gets his way.

The Islam critic explains that the organizer spearheading the Ground Zero mosque outlined his manifesto for the infiltration of secular governments like that of the United States by means of "peaceful lobbying efforts."

"What he is suggesting is to make the governors and the political institutions consult Muslim institutions and Muslim personalities like himself...in the field so as to ensure that the decision-making...reflects the spirit of sharia, to make Muslim personalities so they can begin to influence the government and so they can become consultants to the government," Shoebat reports. "And then they make sure that the laws are within the spirit of sharia Islamic laws."

He points out that Abdul Rauf has already taken a step toward his goal by getting a State Department-funded trip to the Middle East to be an envoy for alleged "peaceful" Islam".

August 19, 2010 at 5:01 p.m.
HiDef said...

Hey, "cut 'n paste" canary is back! Or is it "copypasta canary"?

August 19, 2010 at 5:43 p.m.
Clara said...

whoknows.

I wonder when the people who want the mosque built so near Ground Zero, bought the property, before or after 9/11.

Just wondering.

August 19, 2010 at 6:29 p.m.
whoknows said...

That's an interesting question Clara... I didn't think about that. I wonder, too...

August 19, 2010 at 6:41 p.m.
sd said...

According to the linked article: "After years of on-again, off-again negotiations, Mr. El-Gamal closed on the purchase in July 2009 for $4.85 million." He says it took him four years of negotiations to buy it.

http://www.observer.com/2010/real-estate/%E2%80%98ground-zero-mosque%E2%80%99-developer?page=0

Apparently they are planning to have a swimming pool, basketball court, mosque, 9/11 memorial, and some other stuff. It'll cost $100 million to develop it.

August 19, 2010 at 7:05 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

In response to my "All I see I from your posts is poorly spelled innuendo butchered with bad grammar.

Sometimes you stumble onto a cogent point but most of the time you write like a moron."

FM_33 replied,"I must be the smartest moron you ever read. keep reading because you must be learning something new that you never knew before."

First, I didn't call you a moron. I said (see above) that most of the time you write like one. As does your alter-ego, Dewey.

Second, yes, you are the smartest moron I ever read.

August 19, 2010 at 7:15 p.m.
InspectorBucket said...

I will stand with Thomas Jefferson on this issue.

By contrast, so many statements in the last weeks seem dazed or distracted in their zealotry, enthusiasm, or naivete.

Reason and conscience are the way.

**

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If a sect arises whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play and reasons and laughs it out of doors without suffering the State to be troubled with it." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782. ME 2:224

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546

http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm

August 19, 2010 at 7:36 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Canary- August 19, 2010 at 5:01 p.m.

I can always count on you to find some nut job, far right extremist to support your posts. Case in point, your posting in regards to Walid Shoebat, a "self described ex terrorist" who converted to Christianity.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201008180049

You always manage to make my day Canary. Please, don't stop posting, LOL.

August 19, 2010 at 8:25 p.m.
Sailorman said...

From Media Matters "about us" page

"Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media."

If media really mattered to them, they would correct all misinformation - not just conservative. There's plenty on both sides to keep them busy.

Having said that, Shoebat should change his name to dingbat. He's as believable as, I don't know, a congress critter.

August 19, 2010 at 8:37 p.m.
Oz said...

Sailorman...Thank you for pointing that out.

August 19, 2010 at 10:09 p.m.
moonpie said...

You can stand on the side of taste and on the side of the constitution in this matter.

You can voice your objections on the basis of taste, but you should also uphold the constitution.

Which means, all you can really say is, "I think this is very disrespectful, but I will defend your right to the death to build a mosque/community center here."

Short of that, you're a coward or a hypocrite.

Personally, I think it's insensitive to put that near the WTC location. But the last time I checked, this was still America. So build the community center, to me, it's a symbol of freedom. I can't help how others will appropriate it.

To date, I've seen many appropriate positive changes in our society as steps backwards... just for starters, civil rights.

Americans have the right to speak, even it is to oppose American principles. To challenge thought, the limits of free speech, the limits of taste are all very American.

Going back to the war for independence, the British thought we were cowards for firing from behind trees. We were terrorists to them. We were fighting for our voice and for our freedoms.

While I vehemently dissagree with many voices of Islam, I cannot deny them the right to build. The city of New York has permitted this.

Chattanoogans can wail all they want. But I'm for justice and the constitution over prejudice.

Shame on all of you who speak otherwise.

August 19, 2010 at 10:11 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Good grief - did you not see the smiley thing? I would have thought the reference to Mork would have given it away. I find it rude, or sad, when someone is wound so tight they take offense at imagined provocations. So there. jeez"


Sorry. I didn't mean to sound defensive or to respond rudely. I failed to communicate the sentiment I meant to convey. No offense intended.


"If you think NOT ONE muslim in this country applauded 9/11, you believe in the tooth fairy too. I'm sure 99% of the didn't. I said it was "maybe" one of these guys - not trying to tie anything to anything. If I look hard enough, I'm sure I could find one example. It's not worth the effort to argue something so inane."


I wouldn't doubt that one could find a bunch of home grown lily white American who may have cheered 9/11. Crazy is crazy and insane is insane.

The point is, that Islam is in no manner responsible for what happened on that day, and to shut any number of them out of lower Manhattan, not to mention disregarding property rights involved, simply because people feel uncomfortable, regardless of rhyme or reason, is ludicrous.


"Regardless, you were right on with the rest of it.

Have a nice day."


You too and again, I apologize for my overreaction.

August 20, 2010 at 1:38 a.m.
alprova said...

whoknows wrote: "I do feel, however, that if they build a mosque there, it will create more violence in the area. Not violence from radical Islamists (or not so radical) but violence from some of the ignorant fools who think that all of Islam is to blame for the actions of a few."


Now THAT is a valid point.

August 20, 2010 at 1:41 a.m.
alprova said...

dss wrote: "Alprova, you disqualify from the discussion any “Christian based religious blogs as evidence,” wanting “credible sources of evidence.” One of the last times I was on here, I believe you were giving credence to Sarah Palin’s “faked pregnancy” and cited her IQ score from a source on buzzfeed."


You should be aware that I offered that particular post in jest. It was never to be taken seriously. I even stated so a few posts later.

The reason I did not want opinions posted on the subject from any Christian related point of view is solely due to the fact that any offered testimonial on the issue would never be objective.

I've yet to meet a hard line Christian that had any tolerance for any other religion that is not based in the belief in the existence of Christ. Therefore they cannot be trusted to be unbiased, fair, or truthful in any representation of applicable facts as they may be.

I don't say that to offend a soul, but that's the way it is, and the way it has always been. Too many Christians are of the opinion that their religion is the only true and correct one, and have no tolerance for others.


"I hardly think you’re the best referee for determining credible sources. (I realize criticizing you often results in 500-750 words, perhaps more judging from your activity today.)"


Okay. No problem. Either what the man wrote was factual or it was not. I know it is not factual.

But that does not mean that some evangelical idiot will not devote an entire website to the subject of Islam and how evil they are and cite all kinds of crap to support their idiotic opinions of Muslims.

Opinions are not factual evidence. Now if someone can point to any group of Americans, who happen to be Muslims, and who cheered 9/11, then let's have it. But I'm not about to sort through a bunch of blogs offered as evidence.

I think most people are keenly aware of what is credible and what is not. A blogged opinion is worthless. A biased opinion posted into a blog is worse than worthless.

August 20, 2010 at 2:03 a.m.
alprova said...

Clara wrote: "whoknows. I wonder when the people who want the mosque built so near Ground Zero, bought the property, before or after 9/11. Just wondering.

Whoknows wrote: "That's an interesting question Clara... I didn't think about that. I wonder, too..."


The property in question was bought in early 2009.

August 20, 2010 at 2:08 a.m.
Clara said...

Al,

The article stated that Mr.El-Gamil started negotiations about 4 years before 2009.

Somewhere, on this blog, I also picked up the information that the Inman, Mr. Rauf, belonged to the Sumi sect, which I understand from reading elsewhere, is a very peaceful, tolerant sect of Islamic belief.

I certainly can't reliably research this myself, considering the uncooperative state of my computer.

This has been, assuradly, one of the most controversial issues offered by Clay. Very interesting!

August 20, 2010 at 7:17 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

Oz - It's NEAR Ground Zero... 800 feet from an existing mosque

August 20, 2010 at 10:05 a.m.
miraweb said...

Excellent piece by Jon Stewart showing Fox News largest investor outside of the Murdochs is a Saudi prince -- and showing what a silly game "guilt by association" really is.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover---homeland-edition

Lets turn this around - lets say that a mainstream Christian group wants to raise a memorial cross in the exact center of Ground Zero.

Would Christians feel their religious freedom attacked if the news started 24/7 coverage of the callous insensitivity of Christians who might place a religious monument at the place where so many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and others died in the attacks?

Should the group's pastor be investigated by the media to determine his financials status and whether and whether he ever attended camps in the woods as a youth to become a soldier of God and even sang militant Christian song (with acoustic guitar, no less)?

Let's be perfectly honest.

In fifteen years what will be in the exact center of Ground Zero will be a Starbucks.

August 20, 2010 at 10:20 a.m.
miraweb said...

Excellent piece by Jon Stewart showing Fox News largest investor outside of the Murdochs is a Saudi prince -- and showing what a silly game "guilt by association" really is.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/extremist-makeover---homeland-edition

Lets turn this around - lets say that a mainstream Christian group wants to raise a memorial cross in the exact center of Ground Zero.

Would Christians feel their religious freedom attacked if the news started 24/7 coverage of the callous insensitivity of Christians who might place a religious monument at the place where so many Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and others died in the attacks?

Should the group's pastor be investigated by the media to determine his financials status and whether he ever attended camps in the woods as a youth to become a soldier of God and even sang militant Christian songs (with acoustic guitar, no less)?

Let's be perfectly honest.

In fifteen years what will be in the exact center of Ground Zero will be a Starbucks.

August 20, 2010 at 10:25 a.m.
Oz said...

eeeeeek... I know. I had it changed and hit post my comment instead of preview revised comment. Thanks for the correction.

August 20, 2010 at 10:30 a.m.
miraweb said...

That said, there was no outrage (and not much news coverage) when the steel-beam cross that was found during the clean-up was moved into a church near Ground Zero.

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/steel.cross.moved.from.ground.zero.to.church/7879.htm

There is a reason the first amendment should protect all of us, not just those whose opinions we agree with.

August 20, 2010 at 10:36 a.m.
alprova said...

Clara wrote: "Al,

The article stated that Mr.El-Gamil started negotiations about 4 years before 2009.

Somewhere, on this blog, I also picked up the information that the Inman, Mr. Rauf, belonged to the Sumi sect, which I understand from reading elsewhere, is a very peaceful, tolerant sect of Islamic belief."


And yet, ignorant people seem to completely overlook that one simple fact, and would rather fear that which they do not understand or who only want put people unlike themselves out of sight and out of mind.

This is simply another example of how some people in this country work so hard to set up dividing lines, when it so much easier to extend a hand of friendship and acceptance.

August 20, 2010 at 10:40 a.m.
alprova said...

It's an amazing thing to watch some people, and we all know who they are, who will consistently raise their hackles in defense of freedom of religion in this country, but the minute that Islam becomes the focus of attention...well that all goes out the window.

This country has a very sordid history of embracing ignorance and intolerance. We have the resources in this country to stamp out ignorance in it's tracks, but like leading a horse to a trough of water, you can't make it drink.

A very disturbing as well as revealing statistic is that a full fifth of the people in this nation are of the opinion that our own President is a Muslim, despite his repeated public declarations of being a Christian.

Trying to connect with and to correct such people is a complete waste of time. They are far more comfortable in their cocoon of ignorance.

And that is a doggone shame.

August 20, 2010 at 11:03 a.m.
Sailorman said...

miraweb

"Let's be perfectly honest. In fifteen years what will be in the exact center of Ground Zero will be a Starbucks."

Now that's funny! And most likely true.

Al said

"And that is a doggone shame."

And that is a doggone understatement.

August 20, 2010 at 11:47 a.m.

GLENN: "...there's also Greg Gutfeld [of the Red Eye show] and I would like to share this. "So, muslim investors are championing the construction of a new mosque near Ground Zero. They claim it's all about strengthening the relationship between the muslim and non-muslim world. As an American, I believe they have a right to build a mosque, after all, if they buy the land and follow the law, who is going to stop them, which is why in the spirit of outreach, I have decided to do the same thing...I am announcing tonight that I am planning to build and open the first gay bar that caters not only to the westerner but also to Islamic gay men.

To best express my sincere desire for dialog, the bar will be situated next to the mosque, Park 51 in the available commercial space. This is not a joke. I've already spoken to a number of investors who have pledged their support of this in part as a bid for understanding and tolerance. As you know, the muslim faith does not look kindly upon homosexuality which is why I'm building this bar. It is an effort to break down barriers and reduce deadly homophobia in the Islamic world. The goal, however, is not simply to open any typical gay bar but one friendly to men of Islamic faith. An entire floor with nonalcoholic drinks since booze is forbidden. Bottom line, I hope the mosque owners will be as open to the bar as I am to their new mosque".

Tell me, tell me pretty-eyed man, Who's to blame?

August 20, 2010 at 11:48 a.m.
najones75 said...

Alprova,

You can really play it both ways. The people that say he's a Muslim don't know anymore than the people that say he's a Christian. Just like you don't know. To call one...or the other, for that matter...ignorant, is just ridiculous. No one really knows what religion he practices except for him and his wife.

And just FYI...I don't really give a rat's you-know-what if its one or another. Makes no difference in my opinion of him or my disagreement with his ideology.

But, to come on here and say that "he said so" is reason enough, whatever the case may be, makes it look like you're just a bit gullible. The fact is NO ONE KNOWS. ITS ALL SPECULATION ON BOTH SIDES!

August 20, 2010 at 11:57 a.m.

Here's the Real, brutal shame:

Today [8-11] Wafa Sultan was on Hannity's radio show. She again reiterated that there is no such thing as "radical' Islam or "moderate" Islam. Raised in Syria and a victim of the brutal, Islamic Regime there (as most women have been in Islamic countries), she adamantly states that Islam is a "brutal Doctrine", end of story. She wrote a book called "The god who Hates" and in it described her torture and the ongoing torture of men, children and especially women, under Islamic or Sharia Law. Once we allow a modicum of Sharia, as a New Jersey Court Judge did recently in a husband/wife rape case (OK the judge says because Sharia "allows" it and he must bow to their "religious freedom"); we are then on the road as Canada and Britain are, of allowing or mandating it in the schools, courts and in the Government as has been successfully tried in Canada and Britain/Europe. Those countries have allowed Sharia precepts in many cases that actually trump their own laws.

This is also what Obama and many in his Gov't stated they are bent on doing-bowing to "International Law", because we exist "globally" now and should not be a nation unto itself.

Wafa stated that the building of the mosque on hallowed American ground is cause for celebration in the Jihadist, Islamic world. She read an aricle she had just finished, from an Arabic Middle Eastern newspaper and quoted" ..this is a victory for Islam!", regarding the Imam's triumphant score at Ground Zero. Wafa also mentioned that OUR State Dept, Hillary Clinton's watch, released advertisements all over the Muslim world the other day, quoting what Mayor Bloomberg had to say about "tolerance towards Islam" and working with Muslims "in a spirit of cooperation..".

Wafa's take on this is that they shouted "allah hu akhabar" (my god is greater), which she says is also the war cry of the Terrorists, including those who flew into the Twin Towers and as reported by victims on their cell phones and by the terrorists themselves over the plane's radio as they killed the pilots. She also said this cry was used and is used when they behead their victims, as happened to the great journalist and violinist, Daniel Pearl as he was beheaded on video.

Wafa clearly states the Quran commands its followers to use this cry as mohammed first did when he massacred the Christians and Jews in his land and in neighboring lands, upon Conquest. Wafa says this is a cry of Victory and furthermore, prayers are shouted out (on loud speakers) 5x daily with the cry of allah hu akhabar-the Victory cry that sings Islam has conquered its enemies [like the precious ones whose bones are now dust in the Twin Tower's earth].

August 20, 2010 at 12:06 p.m.

She is asking America's women and feminists in particular, "what kind of religion is this that hates and kills so many? Is this what you want in America for yourselves and your daughters? We are lashed 200x and killed daily for next to nothing or for trumped up adultery charges because some husband tires of his older wife and wants a younger one. Or some father is 'honor' bound to kill his daughter because she ran away or wanted to marry an "Infidel" [gee, where have I heard this before? Oh right, hundreds of times in Vancouver, BC and now in Texas, Michigan...]. Women have NO rights under Sharia and Sharia is in the Quran."

This is why she risks her life to speak out, because she doesn't want America to fall for the lies as many countries already have (she has continual death threats from the Islamic world, telling her they'll "get her sooner or later and will kill her"). This is why she left that brutal, evil Ideology and Syria, denounced Islam's teachings, "not to leave her religion or convert to another", else she will be executed. Wafa is but one among many Muslim and ex-muslim men and women speaking out in America and around the globe, the truth of what is really going on with Islam, its adherents, its Imams, its terrorists and the complicity of our Gov'ts, especially in the last 20-25 years in North America.

Europe is now struggling to get out of the web of viperish cells spread around its continent and many sorely regret EVER allowing Islamic emigration to their countries. Google ex-Muslims, Quranic teachings, Envy and hatred of Israel and America, true Islamic teachings and remember, the brave woman Wafa, who speaks for all muslims everywhere who are tortured by Islam, says, "Islam is radical in itself, there is no moderate Islam".

All you disgusting, traitorous Appeasers and Encouragers of evil, you know who you are. The most shameful of shamefuls, you who spit daily on our country, its Good Ones and its Constitution, the envy of the whole world. Your place is in the outer darkness, go back to Babylon, Hellions.

August 20, 2010 at 12:07 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

najones75, I agree with you 100% regarding your 11:57 post. All the Muslim talk concerning him began after his Fruedian slip if I'm remembering correctly. That was the day he referred to the 57 states of America by mistake when he meant to say 50 states. I think his opposition took that mistake and ran with it.

August 20, 2010 at 12:39 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Al wrote::: The reason I did not want opinions posted on the subject from any Christian related point of view is solely due to the fact that any offered testimonial on the issue would never be objective.

I've yet to meet a hard line Christian that had any tolerance for any other religion that is not based in the belief in the existence of Christ. Therefore they cannot be trusted to be unbiased, fair, or truthful in any representation of applicable facts as they may be.

I don't say that to offend a soul, but that's the way it is, and the way it has always been. Too many Christians are of the opinion that their religion is the only true and correct one, and have no tolerance for others.


Al, You have met 2 hard line Christians. Whoknows is one and I am the other. And as you can see by his post above he agrees with your stance on this as do I. We both agree that it is their right to build a "cultural center" anywhere they can legally get approval, based on codes and such. We are very tolerant of others beliefs. That does not mean that we just sit back and not say anything cause as you well know we do express our opinions. And I do believe that there is only one way to heaven and that is thru Jesus Christ. As He said Himself in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Me." However, that does not mean that I would attempt to take away anyones right to worship anything or anyone they want no matter how bad of a choice I think it is.

And before lkeith steps in and says that I am forcing religion down her throat, I am not. It is simply your choice to read my post or not. I am not religious, I am a Christian. Christianity is about a relationship with God himself, not a religion. I have never and will never try to force God on anyone... It would never be valid if I did.

I hope that made sense.

August 20, 2010 at 12:39 p.m.
Snooksie said...

Isnt it funny the only religion people stand against is muslims? I dont think that makes Americans intolerant of other religions.Americans intolerance with muslims is the fact that 9/11 happened at the hands of islamic muslim terrorists. New Yorkers arent even against them building a mosque, they are against them building it that close to ground zero.

August 20, 2010 at 12:46 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

Excellent post, nurse. Al, you can make that 3 people now, because as with najones75's post, I am in 100% agreement with nurse's as well.

August 20, 2010 at 12:47 p.m.
alprova said...

najones75 wrote: "Alprova,

You can really play it both ways. The people that say he's a Muslim don't know anymore than the people that say he's a Christian. Just like you don't know. To call one...or the other, for that matter...ignorant, is just ridiculous. No one really knows what religion he practices except for him and his wife."


You can't be serious.


"And just FYI...I don't really give a rat's you-know-what if its one or another. Makes no difference in my opinion of him or my disagreement with his ideology."


Well now, there is a fundamental fact revealed in open forum. Haters are gonna hate, no matter what.

As we all know however, a fire burns far better if more fuel is added to the flame.


"But, to come on here and say that "he said so" is reason enough, whatever the case may be, makes it look like you're just a bit gullible. The fact is NO ONE KNOWS. ITS ALL SPECULATION ON BOTH SIDES!"


No offense, but if you believe for one second that our President is a Muslim, then you're a blooming idiot.

Here...if you're interested in what the man has to say to the issue, take the time to read his declarations in his own words. Educate yourself. Learn something. Eradicate your ignorance, if you dare.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1546298,00.html

President Obama was a member of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ from 1988 to 2009. He resigned his membership in early 2009, due to the media's relentless pursuit of Jeremiah Wright and other members of the church, but mainly in response to some rather controversial remarks that Jeremiah Wright made in reference to the President.

For the record, Oprah Winfrey also rescinded her association with the same church as well, for many of the same reasons, but no one is calling her a Muslim, are they?

August 20, 2010 at 1:06 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

No, nurse, you have every right to say (or write) what you did. I only have a problem when people insist, through government especially, that everyone follow their religious beliefs (no matter what religion they are from) or condemn me for mine, or lack thereof. I admire you for being clear about what you believe, and being willing to say it. I also appreciate your willingness to let me state mine!

August 20, 2010 at 1:17 p.m.
alprova said...

Nuse wrote: "Al, You have met 2 hard line Christians. Whoknows is one and I am the other. And as you can see by his post above he agrees with your stance on this as do I. We both agree that it is their right to build a "cultural center" anywhere they can legally get approval, based on codes and such. We are very tolerant of others beliefs. That does not mean that we just sit back and not say anything cause as you well know we do express our opinions."


Let's be clear on something. I would be the last person who would state that no one is entitled to holding or expressing an opinion.

Livn4life made the statement, "that [the] religion, that book, people associated with that religion who are involved in the disregard for the harm caused in the inexcusable events of Sept. 11, 2001."

I asked for justification or proof of those charges. I also asked for credible sources. Livn4life has yet to respond.

The fact of the matter is that 19 men who bastardized their chosen religious beliefs boarded those planes. To blame anyone else or any collection of holy writings for the actions of those 19 men is ludicrous. To further claim that people associated with Islam are in any manner to blame or to be held responsible is just as ludicrous.


"And I do believe that there is only one way to heaven and that is thru Jesus Christ. As He said Himself in John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Me."


I'm curious. By that standard, does this mean that every Catholic in the World, who speaks to God through an ordained Priest, but recognizes Christ too, is destined for Hell for failing to follow Biblical protocol?

It's not a challenge or meant to start an argument. I'm just curious how this may be viewed by those who believe the Bible to be 100% accurate.


"However, that does not mean that I would attempt to take away anyones right to worship anything or anyone they want no matter how bad of a choice I think it is."


I truly believe that you mean that too.

The problem however, is that this entire issue has been elevated to a discussion on a national level by people who do not have such tolerance and acceptance. I would even go so far as to state that most of the anti-Mosque crowd in New York are not religious at all. They are simply against anything at all related to Islam.

There comes a time when objectivity has to be involved in discussion when it pertains to alternative religions of choice. I find it very hard to find that objectivity in those who are completely convinced that their religious beliefs are the only ones that are true and correct.

That's all I meant to say. I was not attacking Christianity. To do so would be akin to attacking my own beliefs. There are those out there who think that Islam is an affront to dominate the world, and you're not going to find any reality coming from those with that mindset.

August 20, 2010 at 1:35 p.m.
alprova said...

Snooksie wrote: "New Yorkers arent even against them building a mosque, they are against them building it that close to ground zero."


Fine. Then there is a simple answer to the problem. Let New Yorkers take up a collection of an immense sum of money and then present it as an an offer that cannot be refused.

Given the history of organized crime that has been pervasive in that city for decades, that would be most befitting a solution, wouldn't you think?

The Muslims paid for their property. If New Yorkers want to take up the practice of eminent domain, then let them demonstrate the courage of their convictions. Otherwise, this debate is completely academic and a waste of precious time.

August 20, 2010 at 1:43 p.m.
BobMKE said...

nurseforjustice,

What a perfectly stated heart felt post. I totally agree and I am also a Christian. As Christians we treat people like we would treat Jesus if he were here on earth again. We don't judge people because the Lord will do that when their short time here on earth is over. We know that this is just a temporary assignment and our true home is in heaven.

In regards to FM_33. Being an "Independant" means you do not have any core believes or values. You are like people who wet their finger and hold it up in the air to learn which way the wind is blowing and then go with the wind. Also, anyone who calls themselves a "Moderate Democrat" (Dewey60??) should realize that today's version of a Democrat is so far left of the party. The true 1960's type Democrats are abandoning the far left of their party because they are finally realizing that Obama and his Chicago Political Machine are going down in flames.

August 20, 2010 at 2 p.m.
ctfpfan08 said...

Simply put... This whole issue is American Ignorance at its best.

It's not like the rest of the world is surprised. As usual we're just living up to our reputation.

The best thing I heard the other day was that even GWB said that if we choose to hate Muslims because of what happened on 9/11, we will only prove the terrorists right. They preach to their people that our fight is a war against Islam. Our fight is a war against terrorists and all Muslims are NOT terrorists. That would be like saying all white people are members of the KKK. It would be like saying all Germans are Nazis. It would be like saying all Catholic priests are child molesters.

It's ignorant. And it disgusts me, a born and raised New Yorker.

No, it's not a sensible thing to do but they have the right and what people are fighting about right now IS their right to do it.

August 20, 2010 at 2:15 p.m.
Snooksie said...

They have been asked to meet with David Patterson about finding an alternate place to build but they refuse to meet with him. Now I wonder why that is.

August 20, 2010 at 3:03 p.m.
najones75 said...

You've still done nothing to disprove anything I've said since this blog began.

I said no one really knows what religion, if any, this guy practices. You say "You can't be serious."

A very compelling argument.

I said that I disagreed with his ideology. You say, "haters are gonna hate, no matter what." What the heck are you talking about? Don't put words in my mouth. I disagree with his fundamental vision of how this country should exist. The only "haters" around here seem to be you (Limbaugh, Hannity, W, Palin...the list goes on and on).

I said, "The fact is NO ONE KNOWS. ITS ALL SPECULATION ON BOTH SIDES!" You said, "No offense, but if you believe for one second that our President is a Muslim, then you're a blooming idiot" Again, what the hell? Is that what you do? Put words in other people's mouth and then bash them for that? I don't have an opinion, nor care what the guy is.

Its like you're having an argument with yourself...and unfortunately losing...which is REALLY sad.

BTW, thanks for the history lesson on Obama's time at Trinity. Ya know, I went to a church a long time ago. Didn't really want to be there, but did it because I felt obligated to. Did that mean I was a Christian? Did that prove to the world that I was a Christian? I guess everyone who questioned me would be a blooming idiot or ignorant?

Good post, though.

August 20, 2010 at 3:31 p.m.
FM_33 said...

First, I didn't call you a moron. I said (see above) that most of the time you write like one. As does your alter-ego, Dewey.

Second, yes, you are the smartest moron I ever read. Username: blackwater48 | On: August 19, 2010 at 7:15 p.m.


Well at lease somebody cares LOL.....thanks.

As for Dewey60 i will let that poor chap speak for himeself on that matter that you brought up.

Thank kind sie and have a good day.

August 20, 2010 at 4:31 p.m.
FM_33 said...

First, I didn't call you a moron. I said (see above) that most of the time you write like one. As does your alter-ego, Dewey.

Second, yes, you are the smartest moron I ever read. Username: blackwater48 | On: August 19, 2010 at 7:15 p.m.


Well at lease somebody cares LOL.....thanks.

As for Dewey60 i will let that poor chap speak for himeself on that matter that you brought up.

Thank you kind sir and have a good day.

August 20, 2010 at 4:33 p.m.
FM_33 said...

If we abandon the Constitution, if we turn our backs on the principles this Country was founded upon, the terrorists win. Username: blackwater48 | On: August 19, 2010 at 12:25 a.m.


The crooks in the 2 party's push for so may laws that seem to work against our very Contitution that we hold so dear.

Blackwater48 my hero.....what can we do about it ?

August 20, 2010 at 4:36 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Disagree with me all you want as long as you defend to the death my right (and yours, too, by the way) to say it. I am willing to do the same for you.

We're Americans, damn it. Username: blackwater48 | On: August 19, 2010 at 12:25 a.m.


Blackwater48 have you ever thought about running for a city government position here in Tennessee ?

August 20, 2010 at 4:40 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

I'm with you, Blackwater, on that dewey/FM_33 thing...

August 20, 2010 at 5:04 p.m.
btn128 said...

Has it not occured to any of you that if they were really trying to make this some 9/11 memorial for terrorist they would have simply applied with the port authority and bought space for a mosque inside the Freedom Towers that are set to be built?

If their intent was for the terrorist to win, why would they not build inside the new towers?

If anything, people should be more upset that Ground Zero is still a hole in the ground after 9 years then they are about a building on private property 2 blocks away.

They are building 2 blocks away with tall buildings inbetween. The mosque/community center will not be looking over ground zero, and if you talk to any New Yorkers you would know that it is a side street with nothing on it. Most NYers or tourist have never even been down that street.

Im not saying I dont understand the people who are opposed to them building it there, but it is their right. And it could be a lot worse. What seperates America from Saudi Arabia is the freedom for Muslims to build here, even after what happened. This is what makes America the greatest country in the world. We may not always like when a mosque is built, but open your mind and realize that not every Muslim is a terrorist, and there are Muslims who are Americans and have the same rights as you do.

August 20, 2010 at 5:06 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

I would hope that some of the persons here against the building of the community center/mosque would at least visit the site that explains the reason behind the initiative to construct this building.

I also would point to the FAQ section on the right of the page. Its pretty interesting.

http://www.cordobainitiative.org/

As to the leader of the push to build this site, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who is currently on a tour to promote the site and is being portrayed as a radical by the far right, I would remind them that this individual was part of George W. Bush’s Middle East peace team and traveled overseas to promote a dialogue between moderate Muslims and the U.S.

http://www.alternet.org/rights/147871/mosquing_the_truth%3A_imam_at_center_of_controversy_was_a_bush_ally,_hails_from_sect_targeted_by_al_qaeda

August 20, 2010 at 8:37 p.m.
quietreader said...

This is interesting. Check it out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rof...

August 20, 2010 at 9:47 p.m.
hambone said...

Clay, like I said before. "We need a new cartoon, the residue from this one has filled up the barnyard again" I say build this mosque, how else can we show the world that the American way of life can't be defeated!!

August 20, 2010 at 11:22 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Dewey, Unsure what your point is in your replies to my post on August 20, 2010 at 8:37 p.m.

This issue, at least to myself, has to do with with the rights of American citizens who happen to be Muslim to build a community center.

"There are plenty of other ways to convert americans to the muslim ways,but I will let you give it a try".

I don't see nothing in my post that even suggests I have attempted to do this.

"The Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf you just posted still believes its ok to stone women to death".

Care to provide some proof of that? That's like saying that fundamental Christians who believe the Bible in a literal sense condone stoning for adultery, taking the Lords name in vain, non virgin on marriage day, worshipping other gods, disobeying parents, etc.

Believe it or not, people of many religions have moved beyond such barbaric practices and beliefs, including millions of Muslims.

Oh, and just so you know, I am an atheist. Donate yearly to Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The issue to me is a secular issue, (constitutional rights), and not an endorsement of any religion.

A song perhaps?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okd3hLlvvLw

Or perhaps the Neil Young version.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3T8xr...

August 21, 2010 at midnight
HiDef said...

Dewey said - "You want this place of worship built on sacred ground?"

How far from ground zero does the "sacred ground" circle extend? Is the porn store currently down the street from ground zero in the sacred circle or do we need to move that too?

August 21, 2010 at 8:49 a.m.
FM_33 said...

Stop voting republican Username: dewey60 | On: August 20, 2010 at 11:49 p.m.


Ok last time you did/nt like what i said so how about this line Dewey60.

  • Stop voting republican start voting moderate democrat / republican. *
August 21, 2010 at 12:20 p.m.
FM_33 said...

To quitereader>

Are you trying to convert christians to islam because I will have some fun.

I think not,just playing a game with me?

You ready

Dewayne Callahan East Ridge Username: dewey60 | On: August 20, 2010 at 9:56 p.m. ___________-

I you are a true follower of Christ as you calm to be Dewey60 then no one will be able to convert you to anything else.

Get my drift....

August 21, 2010 at 12:28 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Its time to get back to politics. The republicans have another oil guy rag head named haslem who wants to be in charge under the rebublican monicar. Vote this crowd out.

Vote Democrat in Tennessee politics

Dewayne Callahan East Ridge Username: dewey60 | On: August 20, 2010 at 11:25 p.m.


Then * John Wolfe * a democrat of course should have your vote on election day Dewey60.

August 21, 2010 at 12:31 p.m.
FM_33 said...

To quietreader>

American christians go out on a limb everyday to preach,but the muslim,islam crowd are a bunch of yuck ups. They have no convert skills.

I need a song

Dewayne Callahan East Ridge Username: dewey60 | On: August 20, 2010 at 10:09 p.m.


Dewey60 then how in the hell did a radical Islamic sect known as Al-Qaida pull off 911 if they did not have skills in converting people.

hey think about that line that you said and get back with me on that one !

August 21, 2010 at 12:34 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Clay, like I said before. "We need a new cartoon, the residue from this one has filled up the barnyard again" I say build this mosque, how else can we show the world that the American way of life can't be defeated!! Username: hambone | On: August 20, 2010 at 11:22 p.m.


Hambone which religion did the 911 hijacker's come from ?

Rest my point.......carry on.

August 21, 2010 at 12:36 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Oh, and just so you know, I am an atheist. Donate yearly to Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The issue to me is a secular issue, (constitutional rights), and not an endorsement of any religion. Username: hotdiggity | On: August 21, 2010 at midnight


This is a country that believes in one God and a free nation correct Hotdiggity.

Then how can a person not believe in God and still say they are for the constitution ?

August 21, 2010 at 12:40 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Blackwater48 FM_33 will be known as you twin brother * Whitewater49 * ok.

Just kidding......LOL.

August 21, 2010 at 12:42 p.m.
FM_33 said...

This just in!!

PLANS to build a state-of-the-art library next to Republican Sarah Palin are causing outrage across mainstream America. Username: alprova | On: August 19, 2010


Depends who is the one doing the building and where there coming from in general.

If you was Sarah would you wont Bill Ayers to build up a office next to your home where he was conducting anti-government meetings ?

Think about it bub.

August 21, 2010 at 12:46 p.m.
FM_33 said...

The number one enemy in america is a muslim named Osama bin laden.

Thats number one with these rag heads.

I need a song Username: dewey60 | On: August 20, 2010 at 10:39 p.m.


The number one enemy in america is a democratc who does not vote for John Wolfe for Gov of Tennessee against Haslam come election day.

August 21, 2010 at 12:54 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Lets go country>>>>>>>>>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8oOayXVX...

Dewayne Callahan East Ridge Username: dewey60 | On: August 20, 2010 at 10:52 p.m.


Dewey60 go metal and listen to some * Metallica * some time.

August 21, 2010 at 12:57 p.m.
HiDef said...
  • "This is a country that believes in one God and a free nation correct Hotdiggity."

Really? The U.S. believes in ONE god? Please expound on this idea for us.

August 21, 2010 at 1:02 p.m.
FM_33 said...

Really? The U.S. believes in ONE god? Please expound on this idea for us. Username: HiDef | On: August 21, 2010 at 1:02 p.m.


The concept of one God and is what most Americans value HiDef. You don't have to except it but that is how it is.

Ok,....blackwater48 don't give me the moron dong.

August 21, 2010 at 1:17 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

The first Americans didn't believe in one God and may not even now for all I know. Pretty sure that many Americans also do not believe in the "concept of one God." However, I would like to see FM expound on that idea, too.

BTW, FM, dewey may not be coming back to answer your questions. See the discussion on the Dr. Laura cartoon. Very interesting.

August 21, 2010 at 1:49 p.m.
acerigger said...

Please allow me to repost this from a couple of days ago and think about please,in that so far i've yet to get any answer to my challenge!

"I keep saying,,,this is typical republican smoke screen,mis-direction,look at that shiny object,election year clap-trap! what policy,ideas,solutions do the republicans have?would someone please post the gop's plans for America? something besides"stop Obama"! they have no plan except that.if they do,let's hear it!"

August 21, 2010 at 1:56 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

FM_33 August 21, 2010 at 12:40 p.m. This is a country that believes in one God and a free nation correct Hotdiggity.

Then how can a person not believe in God and still say they are for the constitution ? FM_33 August 21, 2010 at 12:40 p.m.


FM, first off, what does a "free nation" have to do with God?

I assume you are aware the Constitution was set up on secular laws. The framers were very careful not to follow the lead of countries which allowed the Church to coexist with the government in making laws. No preference was given to any theistic belief such as England, which gave a privileged status to the Anglican Church. Our framers rejected any attempt to set up a religious monarchy.

Please show me a reference to God in the Constitution.

Are you aware of The Treaty of Tripoli?

Are you aware many of our founding followers were deists?

Here is a good site that explains these things.. http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

Finally, here is a quote from James Madison who was considered the "father of the Constitution" and the principal author...""During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

I don't need religion to respect and follow the principles laid out in the Constitution.

August 21, 2010 at 2:30 p.m.
Clara said...

OOPS I had a typo and spelling error in Sunni. I knew Sumi was a Japanese wrestler.but didn't know Sunni was spelled with two nn's.

Lots of stuff on Google. some incomprehencible. I'll let you choose.

August 21, 2010 at 2:49 p.m.
anniebelle said...

Clara, I haven't seen you in a few days. I was curious if you found out how to make your vote counted on here. I had never tried voting on one, but when I did, it didn't register until I left the site and came back. Hope that helps.

August 21, 2010 at 3:17 p.m.
alprova said...

najones75 wrote: "You've still done nothing to disprove anything I've said since this blog began."


I have better things to do than to waste my time with someone who would directly or indirectly accuse the President of being anything other than what he has declared himself to be, repeatedly.


"I said no one really knows what religion, if any, this guy practices. You say "You can't be serious."

A very compelling argument."


Be that as it may, I take people at their word until substantial reason exists that they are being untruthful.


"I said that I disagreed with his ideology. You say, "haters are gonna hate, no matter what." What the heck are you talking about? Don't put words in my mouth. I disagree with his fundamental vision of how this country should exist. The only "haters" around here seem to be you (Limbaugh, Hannity, W, Palin...the list goes on and on)."


Sorry, but you can't lump me in with those clowns. I'll not dignify the accusation with a response either. You have as much a basis for calling me a "hater" as you do to level any hint that the President may be a closeted Muslim.


"I said, "The fact is NO ONE KNOWS. ITS ALL SPECULATION ON BOTH SIDES!"


No it's not. To even suggest that our President has any ties to the religion of Islam is baseless. To say that he is a Christian is well grounded in reality proven by long standing associations with churches he has attended and due to his repeated relevant declarations.

Your choice is to take the man at his word, or to discount his declaration.


"You said, "No offense, but if you believe for one second that our President is a Muslim, then you're a blooming idiot" Again, what the hell? Is that what you do? Put words in other people's mouth and then bash them for that? I don't have an opinion, nor care what the guy is."


Then what exactly are you arguing? He's made the declaration many times that he is a Christian, and that's good enough for me. It's also good enough for most other people, save for those who want to accuse him of being a Muslim.


"Its like you're having an argument with yourself...and unfortunately losing...which is REALLY sad."


I see. And what you're doing is not in and of itself the very same thing? I'm not in this to win anything. What are you attempting to win?


"BTW, thanks for the history lesson on Obama's time at Trinity. Ya know, I went to a church a long time ago. Didn't really want to be there, but did it because I felt obligated to...(snip)"


You really are an apple and oranges kind of guy, aren't you?

The man was a member in good standing of that particular church for 22 years. He resigned early last year. Now maybe you can make some comparison to your situation and believe it relevant in some manner, but I sure don't see it.

August 21, 2010 at 7:44 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

eeeeek- "Hmmm.. Fox funded... now they'll start calling it a cultural center".

Good one eeeek.

August 21, 2010 at 9:20 p.m.
omninewsorg said...

If Feisal Abdul Rauf (Cordoba Initiative) actually wanted to build a bridge between cultures, he might involve the the families affected by the 9/11 attack and build something to commemorate the lives lost.

It was never an issue of legality, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has the legal right to build a Mosque next to the most ignominious terrorist attack in US history. The issue is about common sense and decency. New York is covered in Mosques (check google maps); the question is, why must he build one on top of ground zero?

August 22, 2010 at 4:20 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

omninewsorg On: August 22, 2010 at 4:20 a.m. wrote: "why must he build one on top of ground zero?"

It's not. You need to go up and check out the site... you CAN'T even see ground zero from the location of their upcoming NewsCorp sponsored cultural center.

They can't even see it from their Mosque that's a block away.

August 22, 2010 at 6:16 a.m.
eeeeeek said...

that should have been.. a block further away...

typing while still asleep

August 22, 2010 at 6:25 a.m.
omninewsorg said...

The Burlington Coat Factory building was damaged by debris from the Sept. 11 airliners, thusly it is part of ground zero:

Building damaged in 9/11 to be mosque for NYC Muslims

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-05-07-mosque-ground-zero_N.htm

August 22, 2010 at 6:54 a.m.
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