published Thursday, November 25th, 2010

The Main Course

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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claybennett said...

Being Thanksgiving Day, I'd like to take this opportunity to say thanks.

We editorial cartoonists can only hope that our work stimulates thought and inspires vigorous debate about the issues we tackle on a daily basis. The best confirmation that my own cartoons might be serving just that purpose, are the discussions that regularly take place on this very forum. Whether you like my work or not, I am grateful to each and every one of you. I am thankful for your dedication to the public discourse and I'm most appreciativel for your willingness to participate in the discussions here on this page.

Happy Thanksgiving to you all.

Clay Bennett

November 25, 2010 at 12:42 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Thank you, Clay, and Happy Thanksgiving.

$800 billion in "stimulus" and all it got us was an IOU? Imagine, with no stimulus last year's deficit would be less than half the size it is (depending on when the DC fiscal year is; if they're spending 4 trillion a year, can't they even get the calendar right?) Urp up the porculus and try some tea.

November 25, 2010 at 2:17 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Of course, in my copy of the Constitution "JOBS" is not one of the purposes of the Constitution. Maybe our President and Speaker Pelosi and Senator Reid should read the Constitution to find out what's in it. It's to "establish Justice," not to take money from people who've earned it and give it to people who have not; it's to "ensure domestic Tranquility," not to get people 'mad as Hell'; to "promote the general Welfare," not the particular welfare of the hogs at the tax-paid swill bucket; to "secure the Blessings of Liberty," not to babysit us.

And my copy of the Bible has an even shorter list of jobs for the government to do. In one word, justice. Purpose, freedom to do good. Romans 12-13; I Timothy 2; even I Samuel 8, with God's advice to the Israelite Constitutional Convention: you really want to choose a form of government that keeps taxes under 10%. Israel didn't listen. Do we?

November 25, 2010 at 2:32 a.m.
alprova said...

I'm going to refrain from entering into any debate today, as tempting as it may be to do so. Instead, I will be spending time with my family and giving thanks for the many blessings in my life.

On this day, I have plenty to be thankful for, even if the roads traveled to be where I find myself today, have been rough, rocky, and with plenty of potholes along the way. I am thankful that I will be spending a day with those I love.

If it were not for my faith, I don't know that I would have been able to sit here and to take the time to be thankful for the alterations in my life that have taken place over the past few years. In a crazy way, I am most thankful for those life experiences and lessons, because they have come to help define the person that I am, providing me a reason and a pathway to becoming a better person because of those life changes.

Clay, I thank you for your assistance in providing a place where thought and discussion can take place, and for your personal insight through the inspirational artwork that often precipitates our discussions.

I thank am thankful for the Chattanooga Times Free Press for providing a newspaper that is not totally biased and that allows a free discussion of the issues of the day. I pray for it's continued success and prosperity.

I am thankful to live in a country where we are free to exchange our thoughts, without fear of prosecution or persecution, under most circumstances that is.

And my thanks would not be complete if I did not take the time to thank everyone who participates in this forum. Friend or foe, I very much enjoy the time we spend discussing that which comes to mind, even if it seems our discussions are not always productive.

I wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. May you not gain ten pounds when you blow your diets, may you not spend too much if you venture out this weekend to brave the crowds, and most of all, may you all be safe and sound if you travel over the holiday period.

November 25, 2010 at 5:35 a.m.
Clara said...

Clay, Alprova,and all of the rest of you.

I can't begin to top your postings.

Thank you for being there and giving me the opportunity to learn and express myself.

Thank you for putting some humour in my life.

Have a good Holiday ALL!

November 25, 2010 at 6:55 a.m.
EaTn said...

AndrewLohr---guess you stopped short in Romans chaper 12. You should also read further to chapter 13:" 1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

November 25, 2010 at 7:08 a.m.
woody said...

I think I'll just be 'thankful' for that which we have, and not dwell upon that which is either missing or has not been given us as yet.

Have all of the best, Woody

November 25, 2010 at 7:42 a.m.
acerigger said...

What part of "promote the general welfare"(of Americans) do you not understand? That's not "tea" you've been drinking,it's kool-aid! Happy Thanksgiving anyway.

November 25, 2010 at 7:42 a.m.
miraweb said...

Happy Thanksgiving!

November 25, 2010 at 8:08 a.m.
ITguy said...

Thanks to all who contribute to this forum. It is one of my favorite sites. And thanks to Clay for keeping it rolling. Y'all have a great day!

November 25, 2010 at 8:39 a.m.
hambone said...

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

Even you ,Francis!

November 25, 2010 at 8:40 a.m.
MTJohn said...

AndrewLohr - just like ancient Israel, the United States isn't listening to the prophet, Amos, either.

November 25, 2010 at 8:45 a.m.
fairmon said...

"promoting the general welfare" is not a problem but what it means and how to do it yields a universe of opinions. I have no concern unless we are prevented from expressing those opinions without fear or retaliation. I plan to over eat today and enjoy it. It is my sincere wish each of you that continue educating me have a blessed day.

In my opinion neither party, including those supported by the tea groups, offer candidates with the knowledge, skill and ability to do what needs to be done. They must either tax the heck out of all of us and/or cut back on spending including reducing social security and health care benefits. Let's hope they use discretion and good judgement in their zeal to cut spending or they will tip us into a recession that makes the 1930's look like a picnic.

It is not a popular position but taxes on corporations should not exist which does not mean those top managers receiving ridiculous compensation at the expense of the business should not be taxed unmercifully. Businesses provide jobs, less taxes means lower prices and increased demand including exports. More jobs results in more people spending and paying taxes. Not extending the individual tax cuts will not have an adverse impact on investments, those high paid CEOs and managers, wall st. brokers etc.do spend a lot of money but most don't invest in and grow a business. The revenue from not extending them will not be all that great since most will move more of their money to tax exempt muni-bonds.

November 25, 2010 at 9:17 a.m.
librul said...

I'm thankful for the Democratic Party. Time an again it has demonstrated that it is the only political fellowship which gives a hoot about the common man.

It will be a real lesson if the majority of American voters do not punish the Republican greedheads for pushing extension of the ridiculous tax cuts for billionaires while almost 20 percent of the population is barely getting by.

November 25, 2010 at 9:27 a.m.
alprova said...

Okay...okay...okay, I can't wait until midnight. I gotta say it.

On this wonderful day where family and friends gather around the table, most people will be sharing the table with hosts who went to a great deal of time and trouble to provide a bountiful feast.

Many dollars will have been spent by many a host in order to share with others.

It's not hard after reading Andrew's post and comments, to imagine that as friends and family arrive at his home, if he is hosting a meal in his home that is, that someone will have been appointed to collect $19.95 at the door before they are admitted, with no sales tax amounts added.

Because in his home...nobody eats for free.

November 25, 2010 at 9:40 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Ace,

"What part of "promote the general welfare"(of Americans) do you not understand?"

That isn't what the text says, at least in the part which provides .gov the power to do anything.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Read that again, "to ... provide for the ... general Welfare of the United States".

The general welfare of the United STATES. It isn't for individuals but for the welfare of the STATES. You aren't a state are you?

The government doesn't owe anyone a job. The idea that it does is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Constitution, and of the ideals of the founders.

It is so sad that so many otherwise rational adults do not understand the very basics of our system of government.


The government is not failing to create jobs, as it has no duty to do so. The problem is that the government is creating so much regulatory uncertainty that those of us who can create jobs are sitting on our hands(and cash) until some adults are in charge in D.C. and we can be sure our efforts to build our businesses will not be thwarted by idiotic .gov meddling.

November 25, 2010 at 9:48 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks for this wonderful weather that was totally unexpected, (grilling out in the fourth week of November??) thanks for friends, family and good debaters from this site. Thanks for freedom of speech, freedom of press, and freedom of (or from) religion in this great country that is the only one to truly protect them.

Learning the true story of the Pilgrims and Squanto doesn't change my love of this holiday; in fact it makes it more real. Enjoy the day, everyone!

November 25, 2010 at 9:53 a.m.
EaTn said...

There are several videos of the 75th Civil War anniversary reunion on YouTube. The one from Ken Burns tv series is especially good. As you watch these old war adversaries embrace each other at Gettysburg, it should put our current differences in their rightful perspective, and remind us of what we really are thankful today.

November 25, 2010 at 10:32 a.m.
carlB said...

AndrewLohr | On: November 25, 2010 at 2:32 a.m. SCOTTYM | On: November 25, 2010 at 9:48 a.m harp3339 | On: November 25, 2010 at 9:17 a.m.


Reply:

NO, the US government does owe us a job, but nither does it have a right to join with the private sectors in setting up the conditions which allow the private sectors to move our jobs out of the country. Here is information that explains why our ecomony and jobs are in the conditions that they are. When we include the fraud and greed involved in our finanical systems along with the "global corporate monopolies" using the low monetary value countries to have their goods manufactured, it only adds to the entire process of our "race to the bottom." Trade agreements were set up over the years by our Government leaders and the American companies with the lower monetary value countries which have caused many negative affects on our Republic, while being profitable for these countries and the global corporate monopolies. I am deeply concerned about the attitude of the private global corporations in not wanting to create jobs here when we are on the "race to the bottom" unless many more of the manufacturing jobs are created while the US consumers decrease/stop buying the global corporate monopolies' imported goods.

The End of Free-Trade Globalization William Greider | November 4, 2010 http://www.thenation.com/print/article/155848/end-free-trade-globalization

http://www.thenation.com/article/155848/end-free-trade-globalization?page=0,0

November 25, 2010 at 11:13 a.m.
OllieH said...

I too, am thankful of everyone who contributes to the debates over Clay's cartoons. I'm especially thankful, though, for the man whose talent and imagination brings us all to this page day after day.

I am so grateful to the Times Free Press for bringing Clay Bennett to Chattanooga almost three years ago, now. Our city has one of the very best editorial cartoonists in the business, and for that, I am not only very thankful, but also quite proud.

Love him or hate him, we should feel fortunate to have a cartoonist with the ability to stir such passions either way.

November 25, 2010 at 11:19 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re ScottyM: “The general welfare of the United STATES. It isn't for individuals but for the welfare of the STATES. You aren't a state are you?”

Scotty, believe you have somehow forgotten that it was “We the People” who established the U.S. Constitution, and If “We the People” had not been concerned about our general welfare, why would “We the People” have taken the time to establish a Constitution in the first place?

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” [Preamble – U.S. Constitultion]

November 25, 2010 at 11:33 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Thank-you, Clay Bennett. I enjoy your work. . . and thank-you everyone. I enjoy your posts.

November 25, 2010 at 11:37 a.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Mtnlaurel,

Yes, "We the people" established the federal entity to promote the general welfare of the various STATES. It's important to read beyond the preamble to learn what powers were actually invested in the federal entity. It helps give one a clue as to what the preamble was actually referring to.

Mtnlaurel + reading comprehension = fail

The founders did not want the federal entity to be messing around with the lives of individuals. It is a legal framework under which the states can more efficiently work together to achieve the desired goal of securing liberty.

The federal entity was never envisioned as a wealth distribution mechanism. The founders would be appalled.

November 25, 2010 at 12:01 p.m.
alprova said...

Scotty wrote: "It is so sad that so many otherwise rational adults do not understand the very basics of our system of government."


It is so sad that so many otherwise rational adults do not understand the very basic premise that when people are taken out of the equation, there is nothing to govern.


"The general welfare of the United STATES. It isn't for individuals but for the welfare of the STATES. You aren't a state are you?"


What is the United States? What are the States?

We are a nation of people who all happen to live in 50 individual states. Every citizen of the United States and of the state in which they are also a citizen, are people.

Without people, there is nothing to unite. If the general welfare clauses are not included for the benefit of people, then what in the dickens are they for?

You cannot disassociate a state or this country from it's people, individually or as a whole.

Individuals, such as yourself perhaps, may have the desire to declare autonomy, but what you cannot do is to remove yourself from the human species, no matter how hard you may want to do so.

You are one of us, be it on a state level, or on a national level, whether you like it or not.

November 25, 2010 at 12:16 p.m.
Clara said...

I would like to add my thanks to those who, in my opinion, were negatives. I really learned a lot from you as unhappy people I can't help.

By the way,

It's Turkey Day, Hooray! Hooray! While others gorge, And munch, then groan, I'm free to diet, Though alone.
I'm losing weight, Oh happy me. Enjoy the day. Thee! Thee, and Thee

Pitiful attempt, but right off the cuff! C:-)

November 25, 2010 at 1:07 p.m.
carlB said...

Happy Thanksgiving to you Clay Bennett!

November 25, 2010 at 1:25 p.m.
carlB said...

It's not hard after reading Andrew's post and comments, to imagine that as friends and family arrive at his home, if he is hosting a meal in his home that is, that someone will have been appointed to collect $19.95 at the door before they are admitted, with no sales tax amounts added.

Because in his home...nobody eats for free. Username: alprova | On: November 25, 2010 at 9:40 a.m.


Reply to alprova:

There are older peoplle who are in need of help but there are more younger people who will not be as fortunate because of the loss of our middlec class jobs. Just think what it is going to be like for the next gneration of older people.

November 25, 2010 at 1:57 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Re ScottyM: "It's important to read beyond the preamble"

Yes, but there is nothing beyond this that conflicts with the spirit and intent that is expressed in the Preamble. What you do not seem to grasp is the bigger picture.

Our Union, the States, and We the People are all closely connected. Our States could not survive long if most of its residents were unemployed. Indeed, the Union would have a tough time surviving, if large segments of its citizenry were unemployed.

Working to ensure that employment opportunities exists is the best way to help promote and ensure the general welfare of our country. How else can we all continue to work for a more perfect Union, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and maintain the Blessings of Liberty for ourselves and our Posterity?

November 25, 2010 at 2:09 p.m.
acerigger said...

CarlB,Mtnlaurel,Alprova, thanks for trying to clarify "general welfare" for us. Your efforts may be wasted on some,but those who don't suffer from "Obamanoia" probably get it. They just saw the word"welfare" so that's all it took! Now, it's time for friends,family,and(lots of)food. Have a GREAT day y'all!

November 25, 2010 at 2:23 p.m.
Clara said...

That's Porn Clay,

There's no dressing! Giggle...

November 25, 2010 at 2:58 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." - JFK

November 25, 2010 at 5:35 p.m.
daver said...

Party of the common man, huh? I don't think so, Librul. My poor, deluded friend, you couldn't be more wrong.

The party that attacks WalMart? A company that employs "the common man" by the tens of thousands?

"Bitter clingers, those that cling to guns, god and religion". Sound familiar?

"The great unwashed middle of the country." Sound familiar??

"The common man" is used by the Democrat Party. The race card, the class envy card. Black Americans no longer have a reason to vote for the Democrat party.

The Democrat Party of the 1960's may have had some claim to caring for "the common man", but not today's Democrat Party.

They're corrupt through and through and are clearly in the grip of true socialists. As history as proven, socialists in the long run do not have the interests of "the common man" at heart.

I'm thankful for the results of November 2nd.
I'm thankful for all the Americans who do not want Obama to succeed.

"the common man" spoke on November, 2nd 2010, and they've rejected the Democrat Party.

By the way, Librul, it's the Democrat Party, not the Democratic Party.

November 25, 2010 at 10:36 p.m.
Clara said...

Wouldn't(Democrat's Party) be more suitable? Someone throw some grammar at me. Please.

Democratic is a condition? A Democrat is what a person is?

A Democrat Party is a party of one?

A Democrat's Party denotes it is a party of Democrats? (plural)? I'm easily confused!

So...will someone straigten out daver and me?

November 25, 2010 at 11:12 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"Yes, but there is nothing beyond this that conflicts with the spirit and intent that is expressed in the Preamble."

Yeah, except the parts where it explicitly explains what the fed.gov is empowered to do.

The spirit and intent is ambiguous in favor of the individual over the government. The law is clear to those who do not choose to ignore it. Individual freedom is the default position.


"If the general welfare clauses are not included for the benefit of people, then what in the dickens are they for?"

I agree, the general welfare of the STATE is closely connected to the general welfare of the individual.

The fed.gov is empowered to do things which benefit the various states. It is logical to assume that those things would benefit the individuals living within those states. I really do not believe that one can extrapolate from there to say that the fed.gov should have control over the individual's daily life.

It is a step beyond the actual language.

The moment that executive waivers from the law of the land are issued, then the law means nothing. It becomes the whim of an individual.

November 25, 2010 at 11:18 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Clay,

Thank you.

November 25, 2010 at 11:21 p.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

To all those that reads this page and comments on this page, I wish you all a Happy Thanksgiving. We do not all agree,but we do need to thank God for what he has done. And pray that we have more to thank for next year.

November 25, 2010 at 11:32 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Happy Thanksgiving to Clay and you wonderful posters. I was pleased to read the posts about being thankful. Myself and the rest of you have so much to be thankful for and it is all because of our Lord. Family, friends, freedom, our special talents, our giving to others, and most of all God has truly blessed this Country of ours. For those who do not believe in God and are yet thankful, who do you thank?

November 25, 2010 at 11:50 p.m.
alprova said...

Daver, the sockpuppet wrote: "The party that attacks WalMart? A company that employs "the common man" by the tens of thousands?"


Do you work for Wal-Mart? Could you support your family, provide health care for them, and tolerate the working conditions they offer employees?

Have you even a working knowledge as to the employment practices that corporation institutes to protect their profits of $12 billion a year?


"..."Bitter clingers, those that cling to guns, god and religion". Sound familiar?"


Actually, the sentence that Obama uttered, in describing small town life in Pennsylvania, was;

"And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

It is as true now as it was then, and it describes many more people in this country too.


"The great unwashed middle of the country." Sound familiar??"


You're probably one of those who think that Katie Couric was responsible for that quote. She never uttered it. CBS News executive producer Rick Kaplan did.

Had you looked up the word "unwashed" to discover the plebian definition, you would have read "of or associated with the great masses of people; "the common people in those days suffered greatly."


"The common man" is used by the Democrat Party. The race card, the class envy card. Black Americans no longer have a reason to vote for the Democrat party.

The Democrat Party of the 1960's may have had some claim to caring for "the common man", but not today's Democrat Party."


I'm a common man. I am not black. What makes me "common" according to Mirriam-Webster?

Common man - "Characterized by a lack of privilege or special status."

Race is not a factor.


"They're corrupt through and through and are clearly in the grip of true socialists. As history as proven, socialists in the long run do not have the interests of "the common man" at heart."


Source of proof to your silly statement? The Social Security system, socialized health care, and other social programs such as Medicare do not benefit "the common man" how?


"..."the common man" spoke on November, 2nd 2010, and they've rejected the Democrat Party."


Let's wait for the 2012 elections before we assess what happened earlier this month, shall we?


"By the way, Librul, it's the Democrat Party, not the Democratic Party."


His use of the word in the sentence where he placed it was quite proper.

The official website of the Democrat Party is described as, and I quote, "Democratic Party Website."

November 26, 2010 at 4:47 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

U.S. Department of Labor Unemployment Rates in 2009

14.6 - Less than High School Diploma 9.7 - High School Graduate 8.6 - Some College 6.8 - Associate Degree 5.2 - Bachelor Degree 3.9 - Master’s Degree 2.3 - Professional Degree

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

November 26, 2010 at 11:30 a.m.
daver said...

Sorry, Alprova, if not not for Walmart this country's un- employment rate would much, much higher. You know it and everyone knows it.

You cannot pay somone who stocks shelves the same as someone who will take a hit because the buck stops with them. More responsibility, more pay. If corporations aren't profitable, then they can't hire. It seems that you are ok with the federal government being wealthy, but not corporations. I would say you're a statist.

What obama is attempting to do with unions regarding doing away with the secret ballot is just bullying! What, "the common man" isn't even given the assurance of not having his vote come back to haunt him if it goes against the majority??? That's not freedom!

And yes, November 2nd's vote results very much proves that "the common man" is very, very unhappy with the Democrat Party, and wants Obama to fail.

Oh, yes, Alprova, the working conditions at Walmart are horrible, just horrible. I don't think the employees at the Wal-Marts in the area share your opinion.

This isn't Russia in 1917, Alrpova.

El Presidente Obama is destroying the Democrat party. He's turned into a leftist mess!!

You seem to be a Democrat Party hack.

If there's voter fraud, it's nearly 100% always the Democrat Party. Check it out! That manufactured 2000 election fairytale doesn't count. Gore never won. And thank the Lord for that!!!

And it is The Democrat Party, and those that are member are Democrats. The way El Presidente and his union bullies are handling things, there's nothing Democratic about it.

November 26, 2010 at 4:52 p.m.
alprova said...

Daver wrote: "What obama is attempting to do with unions regarding doing away with the secret ballot is just bullying! What, "the common man" isn't even given the assurance of not having his vote come back to haunt him if it goes against the majority??? That's not freedom!"


I really don't know why people think that they can get away with the lies they tell.

First of all, President Obama, who did campaign on the issue, has no power to propose legislation, nor coerce it's passage. So why don't you at least try to focus on the facts?

H.R. 1409 and S.560, the two legislative Bills that have been introduced to revise rules concerning collective bargaining by employees, offer nothing in terms of invalidating the "secret ballot."

The language contained in the bills "Require that priority be given to a preliminary investigation of any charge that, while employees are seeking representation by a labor organization, or during the period after a labor organization was recognized as a representative until the first collective bargaining contract is entered into, an employer:

(1) discharges or otherwise discriminates against an employee to encourage or discourage membership in the labor organization;

(2) threatens to discharge or to otherwise discriminate against an employee in order to interfere with, restrain, or coerce employees in the exercise of guaranteed self-organization or collective bardaining rights, or;

(3) engages in any other related ULP that significantly interferes with, restrains, or coerces employees in the exercise of such guaranteed rights."


"This isn't Russia in 1917, Alrpova."


Not yet anyway. That does not mean that there are not those out there attempting to make it that way.


"You seem to be a Democrat Party hack."


I'm not sure that you understand what the word means.


"If there's voter fraud, it's nearly 100% always the Democrat Party."


That line right there just exposed your current name as a sockpuppet of at least two others used in this forum.

You're a troll, "FM33," "Francis," and now "Daver."

You can hide part, but not all of your writing style and content.

I'm done with you.

November 26, 2010 at 6:33 p.m.
hambone said...

WTG! alpova. It seems when these GOP "hacks" get called to task to back up their rants with fact, they just change their troll name and go right on ranting!

November 26, 2010 at 8:46 p.m.
moonpie said...

alprova, et al,

Whatever do you think happened to canary? S/he got spewified? Took ill? Became Francis? Got bored?

I hope it's not choice number 2.

It's probably just coincidence that Francis started posting in earnest right around the time canary left. (If memory serves correctly, which it frequently does not.)


mountainlaurel,

Interesting post about education level and jobs. To me it it appears that upper eduction could find jobs easier in service industries such as medicine, pharmacy.... rather than manufacturing.

I'd like to thank president Obama and others for saving the automotive industry. Goodness only knows how bad those stats would be had we turned our back on them. Even Ford would have suffered badly had GM failed as many suppliers may have had to shut down.

But you know those darn Democrats! Saving American jobs is so elitist!

November 26, 2010 at 9:13 p.m.
hambone said...

Those elitist Democrats want health care for the poor too!

I don't think Francis and the Canary are the same. If I am correct about the Canary, she has been too busy to post on here. She has been running all over the state to Tea Parties, acting like she's the biggest bag of tea there ever was!

November 26, 2010 at 11:44 p.m.
BobMKE said...

daver,

Great post, but you got cherry picked by alprova. Get used to it, we all do. He won't admit that he is a Statist.

November 26, 2010 at 11:45 p.m.
acerigger said...

Yes Al, daver is a troll. Remember, don't feed him.

November 27, 2010 at 12:09 a.m.
fairmon said...

Can anyone list the principles of either party? Both use a lot of situational philosophy but neither develop and publicize their party principles. A principle is considered inviolable, something for which you would sacrifice life and limb. Doing or saying whatever is necessary to be elected appears prevalent in both.

November 27, 2010 at 1:21 a.m.
Reardon said...

Harp... you should know this:

D/R principles = Pragmatism

And BobMKE, in defense of Al, he has admitted his desire for socialism, so yes, in a way he has admitted he's a Statist.

November 27, 2010 at 6:09 a.m.
alprova said...

BobMKE wrote: "Great post, but you got cherry picked by alprova. Get used to it, we all do. He won't admit that he is a Statist."


Do you know why that is? Because people like you have no idea what the word means, or even if there is a plausible meaning of the word.

You throw it out there because someone used it one time to describe someone who disagreed with you, and you thought it sounded cool, and so now anyone who is not on board with your ideas is a "statist."

I don't recognize the word, as it is used by most.

Mirriam-Webster defines Statism as: "The practice or doctrine of giving a centralized government control over economic planning and policy."

Now, as one man, do I have any power whatsoever to give our Government control over economic planning or policy?

No I do not.

Do I believe that a centralized government should have such control? That all depends on how you define such control.

You see, when you call someone a "statist," you're thinking along the lines of a government like Iraq once had. People like you make comparisons of our government to others, that in no manner compare at all. This is the main reason why I refuse to acknowledge or to accept your definition of what a "statist" is.

NOTHING that our Government currently does control or has assumed authority to oversee, is out of bounds, too intrusive, or has ever been instituted without good and justifiable reasons for doing so.

Make of that what you will.

I consider myself to be a Realist, first and foremost, a Pacifist forever and always, and I believe in a blending or balancing of Capitalism with Socialism.

We live in the greatest country in the world, where you are allowed to achieve goals in your life, earn what you desire, and to live your life as you choose, with little in terms of limitations imposed upon you.

You take for granted that which so many other people around the world will never see in their lifetimes. And yet, nothing seems to ever be good enough for some of you.

There comes a time when your wailing and moaning becomes something of a joke. And I assure you, I laugh at such nonsense on a daily basis.

Am I a statist? I don't think so, but if you think I am, and if you call me one, don't think for one second that it bothers me to be called one. It's just a name, and;

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

November 27, 2010 at 6:57 a.m.
BobMKE said...

Thank you Reardon, for your insight on alprova.

Alprova, thank you for your response, but let me defend my self. I have always thought that FDR was somewhat of a Statist in his attempt to get out of the great depression. Hitler then got FDR out of the depression but FDR's big government agencies he started are still with us today. (And then some) Obama has already shown he is a Statist/Socialist by having taken over banks and Government Motors Etc.

Blending Capitalism and Socialism is blending like oil and water. It won't work, never has, and never will.

November 27, 2010 at 1:13 p.m.
Reardon said...

As much as you try, you can never reconcile Capitalism and Socialism.

Mixed economies deteriorate into Facist/Socialist states.

How can you have a free, voluntary society and a society based on coercion, all at the same time?

It's a contradiction of terms, a "pragmatic" society, if you will.

It's either-or, nothing else will do.

November 27, 2010 at 3:37 p.m.
Reardon said...

"NOTHING that our Government currently does control or has assumed authority to oversee, is out of bounds, too intrusive, or has ever been instituted without good and justifiable reasons for doing so."

You sure about that, Al?

November 27, 2010 at 3:45 p.m.
alprova said...

BobMKE wrote: "Obama has already shown he is a Statist/Socialist by having taken over banks and Government Motors Etc."


First of all, you're not really in a position to judge the situation. That's kind of harsh, isn't it? But it's the truth. Here's another fundamental truth. You are spouting pure ignorance.

No one "took over" the banks. The banks were SAVED from failure, and that process is STILL ongoing. Why were the banks saved? Surely you have enough sense to understand the premise behind NOT allowing so much as one bank to go into total default. Imagine what a run on the banks of this nation would have resulted in. It would have been total chaos and a repeat of what happened in 1930.

Now as much as you would like to pin all of this on the President, I would like for you to demonstrate where he, personally, took over control of so much as ONE bank.

There are in fact, five Federal agencies that are charged with monitoring banks and that made decisions related to closing those banks that could not be saved, and that transferred assets to those chosen and/or approved to take on the assets of those troubled banks.

Now let's talk about General Motors. It's lots of fun to call GM "Government Motors," isn't it? But what's the real deal?

This past Thursday, the Government's interest in saving that particular company paid off. GM went public. They had repaid $9.5 billion to the Government on what they owed prior to the selling of the first share. The balance they owed on Thursday morning was right at $40 billion.

By the closing of the bell on Thursday afternoon, the government had sold $11.8 billion of common stock, leaving GM still owing the government $28.2 billion. Underwriters' expansion of GM's Initial Public Offering brought the latest amount owed to taxpayers down to $25.83 billion.

On Friday, banks exercised their right to buy an additional 15% block of shares. This expanded the total purchase of their stock to $23.1 billion, making it the largest IPO purchase in global history.

In one day, GM paid off over half of their remaining debt to the Government. That money went straight to the Treasury.

Those critical of both the decision to save GM and to save the banks are those least likely to have been directly affected had they not been saved.

I hate to break it to you, but the world does not revolve around you and those who think like you do. And Thank God for that simple truth.


"Blending Capitalism and Socialism is blending like oil and water. It won't work, never has, and never will."


You just keep on thinking that pure and unadulterated Capitalism will ever be allowed to reign and ruin this nation ever again.

It doggone near brought this nation to it's knees...again.

November 28, 2010 at 12:42 a.m.
alprova said...

Reardon wrote: "You sure about that, Al?"


I am.

November 28, 2010 at 12:43 a.m.
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