published Wednesday, February 23rd, 2011

Dictators

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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acerigger said...

If working people would all work together,organize,and speak with one voice,no-one would have to work for a dictator! we're all just trying to survive in this economic environment where the powers-that-be try to turn working people against each other in order to lower wages and working conditions for everyone. Don't be one of the "chickens who votes for Col. Sanders!

February 23, 2011 at 12:36 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Wages for working people have remained stagnant over the past 10 years while the rich have been getting incredibly richer. That is not a good formula for a healthy economy.

70% of the U.S. economy is consumer driven. Getting more money into the hands of more people will help kick start the engine but the Corporate Party is dead set against that.

You can see it played out on a smaller stage in Wisconsin. A Corporate Governor puts through a multi-million dollar tax cut for the rich and then announces that he's paying for it by cutting the pay of nurses and teachers while gutting their right to bargain collectively.

Congressional Corporatists got their extended tax cuts for the rich during the last lame duck session and now want to fire federal workes to pay for it. They want to slash the SEC because Wall Street is so good at policing itself (what could go wrong?), the IRS because fewer agents mean fewer audits, and the USDA because detecting e-coli before meat arrives at your house for dinner is another example of big government overreach.

Rich people needn't worry. Nobody wants to take away your spare airplane, your third vacation home, or one of your yachts.

But while average couples work at least two jobs to raise kids and keep a roof over their heads, they find it all but impossible to get ahead. There is real pain out here being felt by real Americans who are just as patriotic as rich folks.

People want the Corporate Party to stop stacking the deck. The working class didn't cause our economic crisis.

Why do they have to pay for?

February 23, 2011 at 1:46 a.m.
Clara said...

I once worked at a temp. job with a female that acted just like the one depicted...arms folded across chest, scowl, and nit-picking, suspicious, etc. I guess she was just following corporation practices. One of my jobs while experiencing real poverty 30 years ago.

February 23, 2011 at 4 a.m.
fairmon said...

Is this saying all jobs are like working for a dictator or primarily those working in a computer cubicle?

bw,

If the economy is 70% consumer driven what drives the other 30%? Would you agree the minimum wage should be around $12 an hour and CPI adjusted annually?

Increased consumer demand is needed but how does that happen when about 50% already pay no income taxes and many get refunds greater than the amount paid during the year? Reducing the cost of U.S. produced goods would increase demand and the need to produce more but how does that happen?

It would seem low unemployment, say 5% or less, would be a good way to increase average compensation since businesses would have to bid up comp to attract the talents needed in their business. The last time that happened the fast foods were advertising higher wages and benefits. Union leverage is lacking with real unemployment and under employment closer to 20% than it is to 10%.

Do you think all business deductions, reductions, incentives fees, etc. should be abolished and a reasonable set rate established for all businesses? Obama said he planned to propose something like that. It may work if members of congress are not so compromised they reject it.

February 23, 2011 at 5:10 a.m.
Francis said...

i think this cartoon is humorous because the two people have no perspective.. ...they don't really know what a dictator is.

what's really funny.....is how you libs on here actually view bosses as dictators and corporations and most businesses as evil entities....

YES! WORKERS OF AMERICA UNITE! rise up against your dictatorial bosses and stand with your oppressed brothers and sisters in libya, yemen, bahrain, eygpt, iran! good gosh.

yes, clara....it's just so unfair and the norm...and i've worked for many good bosses who were generous and friendly, and corporations who were very fair.........yes blackwater..it's all just an evil cabal...yes, ace, the work- ing conditions in america are just awful...just awful..it's a hell hole here.

blackwater your rant is pretty old....i think it goes back to what, 1917..? you need some new material..that's been heard and rejected over the last century.

what the tantrum throwing fat asses in wisconsin are whining about would seem completely silly to the really oppressed people in all those various countries. what a juxtapostion...overfed, guaranteed, greedy and entitled state workers, unionists and incompetant teachers protesting at the same as all those tortured souls in all those countries.......they would love to have just a bit of what all those ingrades in wisconsin have.

get some perspective, you libs!....yeeeeesssh!

February 23, 2011 at 5:28 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Does Mr. Bennett consider his own boss a dictator? Is he not allowed to notice liberal mistakes or conservative realism?

Rush Limbaugh said the Wisconson teachers who are lying about why they're not at work (claiming "sick") have only taught a third of their 8th graders to read at grade level. So the taxpayers should fund their pensions regardless of performance?

February 23, 2011 at 6:22 a.m.
EaTn said...

The last election I voted Republican was during the Reagan regime. His attempt to disband unions gave an empowerment to the corporations, including a major one I worked for which was non-union. I saw a major shift in their attitude toward employees from wages, working conditions and intimations. I am not all pro-union; a lot of the current backlash they brought on themselves. But combine a weak economy with cheap illegal labor, and the union is still a major force in keeping middle Americans working wages and conditions above water.

February 23, 2011 at 6:25 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

For once I agree with Francis: to compare an employer with a dictator is as bad as comparing the Tea Party with Nazis or Obama with Stalin or Mao: is shows a lack of perspective. The US and its constitution prevents anything coming near to fascism, dictatorship, or communist state of the likes of regimes both past and present. We need to address issues such as government waste, deficits and joblessness for sure, but to compare anyone in the US with horrific regimes elsewhere is inflammatory and incorrect. We all need to learn some world history to understand just how dangerous life in other places could be and still is.

February 23, 2011 at 7:21 a.m.
EaTn said...

AndrewLohr used a quote from Rush Limbaugh. I can't believe there are folks who would admit watching that air-mouth, much less giving him any credibility.

acerigger wrote "Don't be one of the "chickens who votes for Col. Sanders!" I need another cup of coffee because it took a second read for me to catch that one. That's a good analogy of the past election-- I mean the idiot right-wingers flat said they planned to assault the middle class, yet the middle class went out and voted for them.

February 23, 2011 at 7:47 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Comparisons to other governments, or lack thereof, usually done, IMO, from a biased perspective, are worthless.

This is the journal of a Belgian couple who drove across the Congo. It is long but fascinating. Pay particular attention to post #57. Some think we have it bad??!! Also note the work of the Franciscan missionaries - amazing. To a degree, it demonstrates people are the same the world over.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50799

Democratic Republic of Congo: Lubumbashi to Kinshasa

February 23, 2011 at 7:50 a.m.
limric said...

A round of applause for Clay. That's a good one.

February 23, 2011 at 8:01 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Wow, Sailorman-that's horrific. We truly are in a safe place here in the US.

February 23, 2011 at 8:17 a.m.
Sailorman said...

lkeithlu

It was truly a spellbinding read - if you have time, read the entire journal - I think you would appreciate it. It's not all horrifying :)

This from post #23 (wish my French and Flemish were as good as his English!) The last bit is instructive.

"He stopped to say hello. He was a well educated person who previsouly worked as an accountant for a big company. The company is no longer there so now he survives like everybody else by trading a few things.

He was a good example of the older generation. Theygrew up in a prosperous (relative) Congo and have seen it go downhill. They still have the pride every person should have. The younger generation grew up in disastrously f*cked up country and lack the pride. Why should they, they know they do not get any chances?

It is that old generation that longs back to the colonial time. They acknowledge there were a lot of problems in that period and that they were discriminated by the white colonisator. But at least they had a functional country. They had roads and schools. They had jobs and could buy supplies. And above all, there was stability. Now there is nothing but uncertainty.. waiting for the next war to start."

February 23, 2011 at 8:33 a.m.
alprova said...

Good old American greed is at the root of this nation's financial problems and it isn't going to get any better, much less stay that way until people screw their heads back on right.

Good old American poor attitudes is at the root of this nation's employment problems and that isn't going to get any better until employers and employees begin to trust one another, number one, and revive concepts like loyalty, longevity, and team work.

Corporatism has caused people to accept for some reason that everything must go up and up and up. Haven't we learned that crashes are inevitable without a base of support that provides an atmosphere that can sustain ever-increasing profits?

What the heck is wrong with business model that provides for a steady income, without the ups and downs that come from taking too big a bite at a time?

You can hire a workforce, pay them peanuts to produce, but if you can't sell the product you're pushing your workers to make, no one is going to have a job for very long.

The norm in this country has become to take a job and the minute that something a little better comes their way, to hop that fence for greener pastures without hesitation. Whatever happened to loyalty?

And God help us all, but no one trusts anyone for a minute these days. And both sides to that fault are guilty of festering the atmosphere that has led to complete mistrust of one another.

Americans have nothing much left to be proud about, nor have work ethics gone anywhere but straight down the toilet, and that is a doggone shame.

The right-wing machine in this nation is hell-bent on removing the last of the union representation in this nation, and they will fail.

This sordid display being played out across the nation in at least four states is going to empower people to rise up and seek collective bargaining. There are many employers out there that deserve to be held accountable for the manner in which they treat their employees.

By the same token, there are millions of employees that deserve to be booted in the hind end for their lack of work ethics.

The fight for what is right has just begun.

February 23, 2011 at 8:50 a.m.
Musicman375 said...

"I mean the idiot right-wingers flat said they planned to assault the middle class, yet the middle class went out and voted for them."

I didn't hear about that. Would you provide some links to those quotes? Or are you putting your political leaning on that statement by disagreeing with the platforms upon which these "idiot right-wingers" ran? Honestly, I don't remember ever hearing anyone state that they are running for office so they can "assault the middle class."

I agree with francis and lkiethlu.

February 23, 2011 at 8:54 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Blackwater48 said: "70% U.S. economy is consumer driven. Getting more money into the hands of more people will help kick start the engine but the Corporate Party is dead set against that."

I've read that the Chinese workers are beginning to form labor unions due to worker unrest. The Chinese government is tolerating it to a certain extent because it recognizes that higher wages translate into more spending that can stimulate the economy:

“Workers' growing awareness and their willingness to take action are slowly pushing up wages and improving conditions in the manufacturing industry. The Chinese government already moved to increase salaries and labor standards a few years ago. Now it is trying to maintain a delicate balance of improving income levels for workers while not scaring away foreign corporations. . .

As wages and other costs rise here, U.S. companies will have to decide whether to take their production to other Asian manufacturing hubs . . .

This year, strikes at Honda factories and a spate of suicides at Foxconn . . . raised alarm among corporations and the government that the era of the docile worker had ended. Strikes still happen each week in China, labor rights groups say, but the government doesn't allow them to be reported. The labor unrest is even inspiring strikes in Cambodia and Vietnam, whose workers say they're emboldened by their Chinese colleagues' examples.

For now, factory workers in China "are only making economic demands, not political," says Chang Kai, a labor relations expert at People's University in Beijing who has assisted workers with strike negotiations. But history shows that labor movements don't necessarily follow logical, or peaceful, paths. . .

In China, "If the government does not treat the workers' struggle for collective bargaining seriously, if it decides to treat these demands as political, then this will turn into a political struggle," says Han Dongfang, a labor activist deported to Hong Kong for his role in the Tianamen Square protest . . .

To a certain extent, the Chinese government is tolerating worker unrest because it recognizes that higher wages translate into more spending that can stimulate the economy. The government wants all residents to share in the country's economic growth, says Juzhong Zhuang, deputy chief economist of the Asian Development Bank, because "high income inequality can lead to social problems that undermine long-term economic growth."

The challenge is that the government wants to "offer more protection for workers, but it is also exposed to a lot of pressure from companies" resisting change, says Debby Chan, a project officer for Students & Scholars Against Corporate Misbehavior (SACOM), a workers' advocacy group.”

http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2010-11-19-Chinalabor_cv_N.htm

February 23, 2011 at 8:56 a.m.
librul said...
February 23, 2011 at 9 a.m.
alprova said...

We interrupt this broadcast to bring you this special news bulletin:

Rahm Emanuel has been elected Mayor of Chicago in a landslide victory, replacing Richard M. Daley, who has been Mayor since 1989.

Get used to it folks.

By the time 2012 comes around, a Republican will not be able to STEAL a vote to win an election.

On another note:

I am hereby creating and will soon be registering a new political organization -- the Hot Chocolate Party.

Now I realize that the phrase conjures up racial connotations in the minds of some, so every image produced will be required to have at least one color of marshmallows on top or hanging on a string of their hats when congregating in public.

I've had many a bad cup of tea, but I've never had a bad cup of hot chocolate.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

February 23, 2011 at 9:08 a.m.
fairmon said...

Wonderment's? I wonder if DOL, OSHA, TOSHA, THRC, EEOC, NLRB, ADA, FMLA, HRD and others are resources to help dictators keep us in line?

I wonder why some employees are paid signing bonuses and tremendous benefits while others get less?

I wonder why public employees are more highly unionized than the private sector?

I wonder if there are sufficient regulations and safe guards to assure my union don't become like a dictator?

I wonder why some businesses get all the tax breaks and pay none or very little taxes while others pay the maximum?

I wonder why all those people from around the world want to come here legally or illegally and work for these awful people?

I wonder why my friends that work for those high profit companies are treated so much better than I am?

I wonder why these dictators only think about making money and don't think it is enough to provide people jobs?

I wonder why tax payers object so much to paying a little more in taxes so I can get more from my dictator? Why do they object to my dictator borrowing some more on their behalf to provide me more?

February 23, 2011 at 9:23 a.m.
OllieH said...

I love this cartoon, and think the comparison is completely valid.

The definition of dictatorship:

  1. a country, government, or the form of government in which absolute power is exercised by a dictator.

  2. absolute, imperious, or overbearing power or control.

So, tell me, what exactly ISN'T accurate about calling most businesses dictatorships, and those who run them dictators? I don't know about you, but my boss exercises absolute control over me. He tells me when to work, how to work, and how much my efforts are worth. He determines if I'll get a raise, or a pension, or health care coverage, or most importantly- whether I'll even have a job tomorrow.

In other words, he exercises complete control over me, with little concern of the consequences or any legal recourse. That sounds pretty dictatorial to me.

Now, I can already hear the conservatives argue that I have the freedom to leave his company. They'll say, if I don't like the conditions or treatment, that I can simply walk away. That may be true, but the same could be said of the people of Libya, Bahrain, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia.

The most anti-democratic institution in America is the corporation. They are either ruled over by a single, all-powerful proprietor (like an autocracy) , by a unelected board of directors (like a junta), or the company answers to the interests of its stock holders (like a plutocracy). But whatever the corporate structure, make no mistake about it, there is nothing that resembles democracy in how a corporate is run.

Unless, of course, the workers own stake in the business and exercise voting rights in the operation of the company. Examples of that kind of corporation, unfortunately, are few and far between.

February 23, 2011 at 9:26 a.m.
bret said...

Andrew, you forgot to mention Jesus in your comment. Has Rush Limbaugh now replaced him in your mind and heart?

Francis notes that the people protesting in the Middle East would love to have what Wisconsinites have. I think they just want freedom, but maybe the reason they don't have it is because they have no unions there.

You don't like unions? Move to China. No unions there. You don't like government? Move to Haiti.

February 23, 2011 at 9:32 a.m.
Francis said...

alprova.....a democrat landslide victory in the city of chicago is the norm... every democrat wins big..always.......you have no conception how corrupt the democrat party in chicago is...being from chicago, i know more about it than you do. to follow up your statement by sayinng republicans won't be able to steal an election is ludicrous given the unbelievable voter fraud in that city. richard daley was a democrat, harold washington before him was a democrat, jane byrne before washington was a democrat, michael belandic before byrne was democrat, richard daley senior, who died in office was mayor 20 years before that...and so on..and so on.....emanuel's victory is about as remarkable as snow falling in chicago in january.

to get giddy over that makes you look like an ass....and rather ingnorant.

February 23, 2011 at 9:38 a.m.
Francis said...

yeah....bret...if there're no unions there's no freedom...sure....

unions, with their thuggish and elitist leadership, no i don't like unions as many are today.

unions to make sure people make a good wage and are not abused..yeah!

the tantrum in wisconsin is disgusting......the people in the middle east want freedom, of course....but, if they knew what state employees, teachers and other unions protesting in wisconsin had.....they'd call them ingrates too. "everyone has to do their part" ..to quote obama regarding the economy.. well.....i guess some are exempt.

government is necessary, but not when personal liberty and freedom are constantly sacrificed or constantly whittled away to keep it going...... if obama has his way this country will be headed on a collision course.. the government vs the private sector...those who for the government are well off and taken care of, those in the private sector work to subsidize them.

the uncarrying and elitist attitude displayed by wisconsin state workers is proof of that.

February 23, 2011 at 9:53 a.m.
delmar said...

"yes, clara....it's just so unfair and the norm...and i've worked for many good bosses who were generous and friendly, and corporations who were very fair.........yes blackwater..it's all just an evil cabal...yes, ace, the work- ing conditions in america are just awful...just awful..it's a hell hole here." - Francis

I don't think cutting your grandma's grass qualifies you for commenting on this particular subject, junior.

Excellent article about unions - http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-labor-union-decline - if anyone is interested.

February 23, 2011 at 9:57 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ollie, though you have some points, your employer cannot deprive you of your constitutional rights. A dictator can have you and your family killed and your property confiscated. No legal protection, no due process, no trial by peers, no need for warrants or to be charged with a crime.

February 23, 2011 at 9:59 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Harp said, "Increased consumer demand is needed but how does that happen when about 50% already pay no income taxes and many get refunds greater than the amount paid during the year?"

Good point, but the Corporate Party has made tax talk the new third rail of American politics. Heck, Obama cut middle class taxes and he's still called a tax and spend liberal.

Reagan closed many corporate loopholes around 1986, which increased tax revenues substantially, but we can't speak ill of the Gipper. No one in Washington today is serious about tax reform that would address your point.

Five percent unemployment is ideal for the reasons you mentioned. That's why I'm more ambivalent toward the minimum wage. As you pointed out, low unemployment increases the value of labor organically.

As a former employer I never wanted to pay employees one penny more than I had to. That's common business sense. It was a small company and I promoted an open friendly atmosphere. Workers enjoyed it and I celebrated both productivity and creativity but not just with cash bonuses. People enjoy a pat on the back. They like to know that they're contributing and their efforts are recognized. Positive reinforcement is a powerful tool and word spread that it was a good company to work for. Employees knew there were hundreds of applications on file which made everyone expendable, but that was not seen as a negative by most people. Most workers saw that as proof that they had a good job with a good company. They were happy to have a job there.

Creating a positive work environment increased productivity, lowered costs, and ultimately kept us ahead of the competition.

I know I strayed off topic a little but I was making the point that I can empathize with management. American companies, however, are not hurting. We still the lead the world in manufacturing and corporations have seen record profits over the past six quarters. Right now they are collectively sitting on over $1 Trillion in cash while unemployment remans high.

Some economists criticize banks for not lending more, but JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimond recently pointed out that Corporations by and large are not asking for loans the way they used. They don't need them now.

As to your last point: "all business deductions, reductions, incentives fees, etc. should be abolished." That's a moot point. Nothing is coming out of the Corporate led House of Representatives that has any chance of making the President look good.

As Senate Minority Leader McConnell proclaimed, he believes the main role of the Corporatists in Congress is to make Obama a one-term President. It's not jobs, it's not the economy, it's not anything else. They want another conservative in the White House to continue the redistribution of wealth from the working class to the ultra rich.

They believe their work is not done.

February 23, 2011 at 10:16 a.m.

Tsk, tsk Francis. You remind me of one of my ex-students who puzzled over then raged against what he did not understand.

I might ask, what is it that you do?, as it is interesting to see you attack other's inductive reasoning with your own posteriori, deductive fictions. Also, obviously you did not go to school as you do not know how to spell.

Grow up and get an education, you dumbass.

February 23, 2011 at 10:18 a.m.
canarysong said...

Aprova, re 9:08am post;

Make it the 'espresso party' and I'm in. I really need the caffeine!

February 23, 2011 at 10:22 a.m.
Francis said...

oooooo..what do we have here....an academecian in the house...whoooaaa.. i'm soooooo scared of your big words...oh, momma...

audentisfortunaiuvat..you pompous ass.......i couldn't care less about my spelling on here, my punctuation ..whatever........or your post.

i call it as i see it, you elitist..........

it's very important to put things in perspective.....to equate bosses in america with dictators is just absurd......the fact is most bosses are fine to work for.. and most companies are fine to work for........

unions are necessary...history has proven that they are, but union greed and entitlement is a problem....and you know it.

get over my crappy typing and lack of attention to punctuation...i'm not going to back to correct anything so i can get a good grade from you.

"fictions"...as in alprova's post about emanuel winning in chicago?

it's not a milestone, it's just another democrat winning in a city dominated by democrats for ages.

now, if emanuel would have come to chattanooga and won the mayoral election, now that would be a milestone.

i also claim there will always be instances of voter fraud on both sides, but it's not institutional- ized like it is in the democrat party.

put that in your pipe and smoke it.

i make many good points....many...you may not agree with them, but tough.

dumbass....hmmm.....surely you could come up with a better word than that....guess you're trying to come down to my level, huh..

how about moron, embecile, idiot, dope, halfwit, fool, dimwit, feeble-minded, dolt, or....just plain stupid?

...or any of the other names you mutter under your breath as you grade papers.

February 23, 2011 at 11:28 a.m.
Francis said...

i just read the king of saudi arabia is going to hand out 37 billion dollars to the citizens of saudi arabia.......to shut them up, of course. i can just see the wheels turning in obama's head.

February 23, 2011 at 12:02 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis admitted, "...i couldn't care less about my spelling on here, my punctuation ..whatever..."

I have to apologize to you Francis. All this time I thought you were ignorant. I realize now you're just plain lazy.

Remember, any job worth doing is worth doing well. I realize that stupidity is celebrated by tea baggers while education and intelligence is demonized. You have made yourself the poster boy for this philosophy which is why some people disregard your messages with a combination of confusion and contempt.

What's wrong with writing clearly? Afraid someone might mistake you for a "academecian" ?

Not to worry.

February 23, 2011 at 12:14 p.m.
Francis said...

oh....i'm sorry...i didn't spell imbecile correctly...you can take off for that as well.

February 23, 2011 at 12:16 p.m.
delmar said...

Sorry, I couldn't pass this opportunity up. I posted this in the Capitol Hill cartoon comments but it works here as well.

I got to hand it to you Francis, for a high school junior you use some big words. Good for you! You must be, like, captain or at the LEAST co-captain of your debate team.

canarysong, thanks for making my day, no,, my week, no,, my month ;)

February 23, 2011 at 12:19 p.m.
BobMKE said...

There are only two fairs; the State Fair and the County Fair. The late economist Herbert Stein once famously said, “What can’t go on forever; won’t.” The overcompensation of the Wisconsin public employees and their lavish pension benefits cannot go on forever. And they won’t because of Gov. Scott Walker. The State of Wisconsin is broke like other States. Gov. Walker and others are standing up and finally doing something about the crises going on at all levels of government. The liberal protesters have elevated him to the national limelight. He didn’t ask for it. Only a Ponzi-scheme math could sustain a system that allows millions of baby boomers to retire in their 50’s with enormous pensions that have to be paid out until they die. In a lot cases the widows then receive the pension until they die. They aren’t enough taxpayers or taxes to come up with the eternal money supply. The screaming mobs in the State Capitol in Madison would make a lot of the liberal posters here proud by yelling, “Tax, Tax, ---Tax the Rich Tax, Tax, ---Tax the Rich Tax, Tax, ---Tax the Rich.” Now the teachers have gone back to their classrooms and the professional protesters from across the Country are now in Madison. Madison is now ground zero for the rest of the Country. Gov.Walker will win this. The liberals here have created a PR nightmare because they will not get any sympathy from the private sector. Excessive pension benefits have killed private-sector employers saddled with their own unions and we all know what they did. No employer can forever pay both its current employees and former employees. Because Democratic politicians are beholden to the public employee unions, they have been allowed benefits to get out of control. Politicians of both parties have done this because they knew that pensions wouldn’t be paid out for years. Now comes the time to pay the piper. Gov. Walker will win the battle of public opinion.

February 23, 2011 at 12:22 p.m.
Francis said...

sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me, delmar.

bobmke makes some good points.

if the money isn't there anymore, meaning tax dollars, then concessions have to be made. you can scream bloody murder, but you can't squeeze anymore out of people who have nothing left to give. why should a family of someone in the private sector have to do without so employees of the state can continue to have outrageous benefits..at virtually no cost to the employees of the state?

there needs to be more empathy for the taxpayer in the private sector....after all, they're the ones coughing up the money. more empathy is needed.

is that clear delmar and..... audentisfortunaivat...? i think i'll just call you adentistfortunas......it's much less pretentious and kind of funny.

February 23, 2011 at 12:51 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

"Username: lkeithlu | On: February 23, 2011 at 9:59 a.m."

You wrote exactly what I was thinking, lkeithlu. Where has all the hatred for bosses come from all of a sudden? My boss is a very fair woman who I enjoy working for, and we are not union employees. We are both bound by the same policies and procedures, as are all other employees in the company. There is no prejudice, unfairness, etc. If I am wrongfully accused and/or punished for something, I can appeal it with no fear of retaliation, as we also have an anti-retaliation policy that is strictly enforced.

I can understand there are people working for undesirable bosses, but to compare them to a dictator, who can do anything to you they desire is a silly comparison. Even if your rights are violated and you receive no support from within the company, there are lawyers and courtrooms to handle that situation. Dictators may just kill you if they wish.

February 23, 2011 at 1:14 p.m.
acerigger said...

Wanna see something REALLY hilarious?? Go to "crooks and liars.com" and read about Gov. Walker of Wis. getting punked by a FAKE David Koch. Can't wait to see the reaction on MSM, or the spin on Faux(if they even dare to run the story)

ROFLMAO!

February 23, 2011 at 1:19 p.m.
Francis said...

oh, yes, ace....lets get the pitchforks and torches out.....walker must go, now!

those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones........you soros lovers are hypocrites.

the average american, that would be those who aren't conspiracy nuts, like you, ace...and mountainlaurel...couldn't care less about david koch...big whoooop...

republicans and democrats are both influenced by big money, lobbyists ..etc..etc...

by the way...the polls look bad for unions, teachers and state workers in wisconsin....and democrats..

running away and hiding may not be the smartest thing to do....it doesn't do much for your image........new slogan.....the democrat party-running scared.. or...party in exile.....or...heading for the border..

February 23, 2011 at 1:42 p.m.
canarysong said...

I'm too busy today to post a real comment, but I have to ask....

Acerigger----

ROFLMAO????

Please explain. I know the last 4, can guess the 3rd, but what are the first 2?

I'm not up on all the texting lingo.

February 23, 2011 at 1:47 p.m.
delmar said...

Yes, Francis, your comment is clear as mud. Explain to me how the private sector family is hurt by the public sector employee.

February 23, 2011 at 1:50 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

Rolling on (the) floor, laughing my ass off

February 23, 2011 at 1:53 p.m.
canarysong said...

Musicman;

OK, I guess I was WAY off on that third letter! (shows you where my mind is!)

February 23, 2011 at 2:05 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Let me see if I’ve got this it straight as to why we “need” to sacrifice . . .

Once upon a time, there was a housing bubble created by some very greedy unscrupulous bankers, Wall Streeters and financial investment profiteers. The government didn’t see the housing bubble at the time because they were very, very, very busy borrowing lots money to pay defense contractors to create a war in the “axis of evil” on behalf of the oil industry.

When the housing bubble finally burst, there was a big-time financial mess throughout the world, and the government was forced to bail out the greedy bankers, Wall Streeters, and the financial investment profiteers in order to ease the really big time worldwide financial mess that the greedy bankers, Wall Streeters, and financial profiteers had created.

Upon being bailed out, the greedy bankers, Wall Streeters and financial investment profiteers became wealthy once again and celebrated their financial recovery by passing out generous campaign trinkets to favored conservative politicians and extravagant bonuses to the favored executives who had created the really big-time worldwide financial mess.

The favored conservative politicians became joyful over the financial recovery of the greedy unscrupulous bankers, Wall Streeters and financial investment profiteers, and were so thrilled with the campaign trinkets that had been bestowed upon them that they decided to bestow more tax cuts to corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy throughout the land.

The corporations and wealthiest of the wealthy were pleased with the tax cuts bestowed upon them by their favored conservative politicians, but cried they could become even more wealthy if their favored politicians would just eliminate unions and cut funds for schools, the poor, social security, and all of the salaries, pensions, and health benefits of the public workers throughout land.

Upon hearing the cries of corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy, the favored conservative politicians went to the unions, the poor, the elderly, the schools, and public workers and declared YOU “need” to sacrifice and give-up your wasteful ways for the benefit of corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy because YOU are in debt and it’s the only way that WE, the favored politicians, can continue pleasing corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy.

February 23, 2011 at 2:25 p.m.
Francis said...

sure....say, in the private sector...a father and mother are underemployed or one of them has lost their job in this economy.......

say they're making half of what they made....the companies they work for either had to get rid of health coverage or are asking more out of each check.

say there's county taxes, city taxes and state taxes where they live...

and taxes have gone up..for each one...so have property taxes... .

and the cost of living has gone up..food, utilities...etc...

they make less but are paying more in taxes....even if they get tax breaks, taxes are still higher overall..

they have to adjust by giving things up..even somethings they need, because they're guaranteed nothing.....

meanwhile...state employees/government workers...even though they're in the same economy...will not make less, will continue to get incredible bene- fits and pay nothing for health..........they may even continue to get raises.. or somekind of cost of living adjustment..

if state workers/government workers would postpone raises, contribute something to their packages/benefits..etc..then that would enable the state to lower taxes maybe or not raise them, at least...

the only way the state can continue to fund elaborate state employee pack- ages is too continue to raise taxes......even if you taxed the hell ouf of all the rich people in the st ate..it wouldn't make a difference.

the private sector, damaged big time by the economy...can't afford to support what state employees feel they're entitled too...

February 23, 2011 at 2:29 p.m.
Francis said...

it 's only fair that state employees share the burden, given that they work for the taxpayers. this isn't a time for lack of empathy.

February 23, 2011 at 2:34 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Francis is beginning to sound like a talking mule for a third-world-style oligarchy.

February 23, 2011 at 2:55 p.m.
alprova said...

Francis wrote: "alprova.....a democrat landslide victory in the city of chicago is the norm...every democrat wins big..always.......you have no conception how corrupt the democrat party in chicago is...being from chicago, i know more about it than you do."


I doubt it, but then anything is possible. Being from somewhere does not make you an authority of anything, other than you might know how to get across town a little faster.


"to follow up your statement by sayinng republicans won't be able to steal an election is ludicrous given the unbelievable voter fraud in that city. richard daley was a democrat, harold washington before him was a democrat, jane byrne before washington was a democrat, michael belandic before byrne was democrat, richard daley senior, who died in office was mayor 20 years before that...and so on..and so on.....emanuel's victory is about as remarkable as snow falling in chicago in january."


What can you truly say, other than it is a town where Democrats do not fail? That's certainly no indication of "fraud." Fraud would result in people being arrested, indicted, prosecuted, and incarcerated. You can't point to but a few people out of how many politicians in Chicagoland?


"to get giddy over that makes you look like an ass....and rather ingnorant."


Notwithstanding your fascination with my posterior region, which is off-limits to you by the way, your state of eternal ignorance seems to be clouding your ability to make rational observations.

Remember former Governor George Ryan, who is currently scheduled for release from prison on July 4, 2013? He was a Republican who dipped his fingers into way too many honey jars.

Rahm Emanuel has been dogged since he made the announcement that he was seeking the post in Chicago. Like President Obama, there is not much out there that has not been tried, in seeing to it that the man did not run for office.

It didn't work. The man was deemed a resident and now he is Mayor.

While Chicago may not be the best example to use, for Illinois is highly Democratic, it is noteworthy that just a few weeks ago, a judge ruled that he could not be on the ballot. That was overturned. He won.

Are all the people who voted for the man corrupt? Nope.

Lots has been written and said about Rahm Emanuel, but it's never harmed him politically, and it never will. Do you know why?

Because many a sore Republican has spent many a day making claims about Democrats in Illinois being so corrupt, when the simple fact is that in at least Northern Illinois, people simply just do not care for Republicans at all.

And they cry like babies about it.

February 23, 2011 at 3:03 p.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Typical Democrats. When the going gets tough ... quit working and blame somebody else. Hey, now they can get welfare and unemployment and all that other stuff they love giving out.

February 23, 2011 at 3:07 p.m.
alprova said...

canarysong wrote: "Make it the 'espresso party' and I'm in. I really need the caffeine!"


I may have to fine tune that name for sure. Good idea.

February 23, 2011 at 3:09 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Great posts Francis and well explained.

Our Gov. Scott Walker has three choices: 1. Have the public unions pay more for their health and pension costs and no lay offs (Which will still be a lot lower than in other States)

  1. Lay off up to 10,000 public employees

  2. Raise taxes (Tax Tax Tax the Rich the teachers were yelling in the Madison, Wi Capitol)

The State of Wisconsin is out of money.

ML Re-read my 12:22pm post.

February 23, 2011 at 3:11 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Francis pleads, "it 's only fair that state employees share the burden, given that they work for the taxpayers. this isn't a time for lack of empathy."

Why aren't you asking for everyone to share the burden? Why did the rich in Wisconsin get another tax cut? I asked before, "The working class didn't cause our economic crisis. Why do they have to pay for it?"

Mountainlaurel made a great post at 2:25.

By the way, Walker did NOT campaign on a promise to gut the collective bargaining agreement with public employees.

Francis, you should be saying something like this:

'he's acting like a dictator... his way or the highway... he's not a king but he's acting like one... anyone who believes him is a duma**... this is a dad burned democracy...'

(Need to work on the spittle factor.)

I saw in one of your earlier posts this sugarplum: "by the way...the polls look bad for unions, teachers and state workers in wisconsin"

You are officially busted, Francis. You claim to rarely watch the official propaganda network for the Corporate Party, but this just in from Media Matters:

"On Fox & Friends, co-host Brian Kilmeade claimed, along with an on-screen graphic, that a recent USA Today/Gallup poll found that "61 percent" of Americans are in favor of taking away collective bargaining rights from public unions. In fact, Fox aired the results of the poll completely backward: the Gallup poll found that 61 percent of Americans are opposed to taking away collective bargaining rights."

Fox"News." Still making up crap. What's it like to be brainwashed? And if they lied to you about that what else aren't they telling you?

February 23, 2011 at 3:17 p.m.

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." – Thomas Jefferson

It's also known as extortion.

February 23, 2011 at 3:21 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

WWTW: Are saying Governor Walker is an extortionist? Pretty strong stuff.

On to more amusing news. An editor at the Buffalo Beast posed as David Koch and placed a phone call to Walker. I tried going to their website but a tsunami of online traffic temporarily shut it down.

You can read more about it here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/23/scott-walker-buffalo-beast-phone-prank_n_827058.html

February 23, 2011 at 3:36 p.m.
acerigger said...

CANARY,,,,ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING MY A** OFF

February 23, 2011 at 3:39 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

BobMKE said: "ML Re-read my 12:22pm post."

You might think you can tell me what to do, but you’re not the boss of me, BobMKE. . . Now, if you say please nicely, I'll consider re-reading your post.

February 23, 2011 at 3:46 p.m.
alprova said...

BobMKE wrote: "Great posts Francis and well explained."


Not quite, because the both of you are not up to speed on the entire debacle.


"Our Gov. Scott Walker has three choices: 1. Have the public unions pay more for their health and pension costs and no lay offs (Which will still be a lot lower than in other States)"


The teachers have already agreed to pay more for their health care and pension contributions. That was agreed to BEFORE they even hit Madison for the FIRST protest.

Fox News had a copy of the bill posted for a week, and the only thing in it was a calling for the elimination of teachers collective bargaining rights.


"2. Lay off up to 10,000 public employees"


Total B.S. It's an empty threat and you know it. Has it totally escaped all of you that claim to have a brain, that the Governor created the budget gap himself?

But it's okay, because he gave lots of breaks to those who most likely voted for the man. Do you not see an ethical problem there? I sure do, and a typical Republican, who guts educators every time budgets have to be tightened.


"3. Raise taxes (Tax Tax Tax the Rich the teachers were yelling in the Madison, Wi Capitol)"


Like it or not, taxing the rich is what it is going to take to begin to close all the gaps across this nation. You can't squeeze blood from the turnips, that's for sure, but that's not stopping Republicans from putting them in a vise anyway.


"The State of Wisconsin is out of money."


And I'm your fairy Godmother.

February 23, 2011 at 3:46 p.m.
delmar said...

Francis - "they have to adjust by giving things up..even somethings they need, because they're guaranteed nothing....." #1 good reason to be in a union.

"will not make less, will continue to get incredible bene- fits and pay nothing for health." #2

"they may even continue to get raises" #3

"somekind of cost of living adjustment.." #4

February 23, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Blackwater48 said: "An editor at the Buffalo Beast posed as David Koch and placed a phone call to Walker."

Hmmmm . . . Guess corporate oligarchs like Koch have easy access to governors like Walker.

February 23, 2011 at 4:04 p.m.
Sailorman said...

No more difficult than it is for Trumka to get hold of the President.

February 23, 2011 at 4:08 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Francis shouted: “YES! WORKERS OF AMERICA UNITE! . . . etc. etc., etc.

All things considered, it sounds like something they must do, Francis:

“Like a wind-whipped brush fire, the mass union protests that began in Madison, Wis., last week have spread to the capitals of Ohio and Indiana where Republican lawmakers also are trying to cripple the bargaining power of unions — and ultimately realize a cherished partisan dream of eradicating them. In each case, Republican talk of balancing budgets is cover for the real purpose of gutting the political force of middle-class state workers, who are steady supporters of Democrats and pose a threat to a growing conservative agenda. . .

. . . Conservative leaders in most states with strong unions have in the past generally made accommodations with organized labor, often winning support on social issues in return. That changed this year after wealthy conservatives poured tens of millions of dollars into the election campaigns of hard-right candidates like Mr. Kasich and Gov. Scott Walker of Wisconsin.

As Eric Lipton reported in The Times on Tuesday, the billionaire brothers Charles and David Koch, who have long been staunch union opponents, were among the biggest contributors to Mr. Walker. (Americans for Prosperity, the conservative group financed by the Kochs, will begin running anti-union broadcast ads in Wisconsin in the next few days.) . . . In Wisconsin, union leaders agreed to concessions requested by Mr. Walker: to pay nearly 6 percent of their wages for pension costs, up from nearly zero, and double payments for health insurance. At that point, most governors would declare victory and move on. Instead, Mr. Walker has rejected union concessions and won’t even negotiate. His true priority is stripping workers of collective-bargaining rights and reducing their unions to a shell. The unions would no longer be able to raise money to oppose him, as they did in last year’s election, easing the way for future Republicans as well.

The game is up when unionized state workers demonstrate a sense of shared sacrifice but Republican lawmakers won’t even allow them a seat at the table. For unions and Democrats in the Midwest, this is an existential struggle, and it is one worth waging.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/opinion/23wed1.html?src=twrhp

February 23, 2011 at 4:21 p.m.
alprova said...

We interrupt this mashing of the minds to inform Francis of another misplaced reality:

"Judge Tosses Out Lawsuit Against Obama Health Care Law"

WASHINGTON -- A federal judge on Tuesday threw out a lawsuit claiming that President Barack Obama's requirement that all Americans have health insurance violates the religious freedom of those who rely on God to protect them.

U.S. District Judge Gladys Kessler in Washington dismissed a lawsuit filed by the American Center for Law and Justice, a Christian legal group founded by evangelist Pat Robertson, on behalf of five Americans who can afford health insurance but have chosen for years not to buy it.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/22/judge-tosses-lawsuit-obama-health-care-law/#ixzz1EorTpPxh


In case you're keeping count Francis, that is judge #3 who has ruled that the mandate is very Constitutional.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled infighting session.

February 23, 2011 at 4:23 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "No more difficult than it is for Trumka to get hold of the President."


Now who the heck is that?

February 23, 2011 at 4:26 p.m.
Sailorman said...

AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka

February 23, 2011 at 4:27 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

"'he's acting like a dictator... his way or the highway... he's not a king but he's acting like one... anyone who believes him is a duma**... this is a dad burned democracy...'"

I see what you did there, bw. btw, he's not acting like a king. He has asked the democrats to come back numerous times so that the democratic process can continue. The whole king thing is just your spin.

Also, since you seem to want to raise taxes on the rich so badly, why don't you go all-out and picket for free pensions and benefits for all private sector employees as well as the public ones? (And I'm not talking about universal healthcare. I dare say union members have far superior coverage to anyone in the world who is on universal healthcare. I'm talking about the private healthcare insurance they have that beats public coverage any day of the week.)

From all I've seen and read about this, the democrats who are picketing seem to think it's okay for a public employee to have better benefits and pensions than private employees and think it's okay for private employees to foot that bill, yet their entire party platform is seemingly geared toward uniformity amongst the population? This confuses me. Are they being hypocritical, in that everyone should be entitled to good benefits and good retirment, unless they're private sector employees? Do they just not care about anyone else who will be effected by their benefits and pensions increasing (the taxpayers in the private sector who pay those bills)? Why in the world should a private sector employee, who is paid lower wages on average, pay higher premiums for their benefits, and have to save their own retirement rather than having a guarenteed paycheck they've never contributed to have to pay for some public employee's benefits and retirement? How in the world does anyone not see the problem with that?

I think the people crying foul don't care about anyone but themselves.

Why didn't the governor go after private unions?... duh, because tax payers don't fund their benefits and pensions.

February 23, 2011 at 4:39 p.m.
fairmon said...

I can't get too concerned about Wisconsin and their educational systems, pay etc. unless if the unions prevail and it causes a reaction locally. Who in the heck will represent me as an already struggling tax payer?

The local school board has already given themselves a retroactive pension for a part time job that used to be effectively filled by unpaid volunteers. There is no one with the authority to prevent such abuse so no telling what demands may result and be granted here.

February 23, 2011 at 4:40 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Harp

Then you'll love the reaction to this:

Tennessee eyes switch to 401(k) plans

Tennessee State Employees Association Executive Director Robert O'Connell said the association would be "upset" about changes.

"We like the retirement system just the way it is," he said

Heck, who wouldn't love a defined benefit plan?

February 23, 2011 at 4:43 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman, do you think that the President and Richard Trumpka are beer buddies? And even if they are, is that a bad thing?

I'll put it to you like this. For many years now, I have not had great things to say about unions. I was sold out by two of them in my younger working years.

But the events over the past few weeks have me rethinking that position, because the right-wing in this nation, for some reason or another, feels empowered to go after the remnants of what is left of unionization, and without any provocation whatsoever on the part of union workers.

To be blunt, that plum pisses me off.

And personally, I hope the Right-wing keeps it up too. It will remind people what a mistake it was to vote for Republicans this last election cycle.

At some point, there will be a unionization attempt right here in Chattanooga. The timing of it and the result of the image portrayed by the right-wing machine here in this area, could actually cause an overturning of the Republican rule in the metro area in 2012.

I'm about to declare my support of all unions for the first time in 30 years and to actively work on behalf of reviving them in our area, when the time is right of course.

Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio are being watched by a nation.

I'm currently exploring the legal way to start sending checks to those Legislators who are boycotting the Wisconsin state Congress, just to make sure they have lots to eat and a comfy place to sleep while they wait it out.

Right is right and wrong will forever be wrong.

February 23, 2011 at 4:49 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Sailorman said: "AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka"

Is that the guy the Kochtopus brothers want the governors to send back to the coal mines because he is standing up for the rights of some middle class employees in America?

February 23, 2011 at 4:50 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Al

It doesn't matter whether they're beer buddies or not - the point about access. It's neither better nor worse than that pointed out by ML with reference to Koch and the governor.

Y'know Al I almost envy your flexibility. As I recall, you were against guns until you were mugged. You were fine with insurance until you got screwed (and you were). Now you're supporting unions. Guess you're never to old to learn.

ML - what does that have to with it - aside from nothing. The question was accessibility.

February 23, 2011 at 4:55 p.m.
ITguy said...

It is obvious that Francis is the product of a public education. If we continue to attack the public employees as if they are the ones to blame for all of our problems, then who will want to work in the public sector? My first boss out of college had been a school teacher. He left teaching because he couldn't afford to feed his family on what he was paid teaching. I don't think it has gotten better.

It is in the long term interest of our society to have an excellent public education system. We will never get there if we are not willing to pay teachers a living wage and to provide decent benefits.

February 23, 2011 at 4:57 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

MM, I only have a few moments so let me shortcut your post: "you seem to want to raise taxes on the rich."

Nonsense. I think if Walker were serious about a budget crisis he would not have passed a $140 million tax break for the rich last month.

Look back to the 1950s when Union membership was about 30% of the country. See anything that looks familiar? No? It's called a middle class where dad could support his family on one paycheck and mom stayed home and raised the kids.

The right for workers to organize, form a Union, and bargain collectively is a law. We celebrate that right every Labor Day.

February 23, 2011 at 4:59 p.m.
alprova said...

Let's be clear about one thing.

I'm not against the phasing out, or changing benefit packages with new employees as they replace current workers, but to change the game plan across the board with ALL of a group of state employees, as Wisconsin is doing, is not right. Not to the degree that they are doing it.

That's very much akin to breaking a contract. This is what I am talking about when I refer to people not having any trust or loyalty anymore.

How can anyone work in such a hostile environment? How can those in charge live with themselves when they foster such a environments?

Governor Walker will not be reelected if he continues to govern like this. At some point, he's gonna step on Bob's toes in his quest to appeal to those with aplenty in Wisconsin. I seriously doubt that Bob is one of those, unless he was a crooked LEO.

Right now, you're thinking that you're a-okay because you sorta fall into a group that the Governor kinda favors at the moment.

But you're not an active member of the police force anymore, are you? Are you retired now Bob? If the Governor succeeds in this quest, where do you think he's going to look next to start trimming?

If he can break one contract, what's to say that he can't break some more? All it takes is one loophole, or a bankruptcy filing to get the job done.

I'd buy some steel-toed boots if I were you. You're probably going to need them.

February 23, 2011 at 5:05 p.m.

It's been kind of interesting watching the intern put his "diplomacy with dictators" program on hold and take up the mantle of the Bush Doctrine. (or what mountainlaurel refers to as his “grandiose neocon ‘freedom’ vision”)

I should have known it would take the intern's conversion for you guys to show up for catechism class. You never know who will show up next promoting what was, for them, an OUTRAGEOUS idea a month ago and a year ago: that something akin to democracy is possible outside the west.

Here's some interesting stuff on Muslim Brotherhood and related issues. Some of it is balanced, some is not, but it provides helpful information to the open-minded.

"Egypt, Israel, and the Muslim Brotherhood by Jerry Weinberger" (American Enterprise Institute, February 8, 2011) http://www.american.com/archive/2011/february/egypt-israel-and-the-muslim-brotherhood/

"Egypt protests show George W. Bush was right about freedom in the Arab world" by Elliott Abrams (Saturday, January 29, 2011) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/28/AR2011012803144.html

“Our World: Clueless in Washington” by Caroline B. Glick (JPost.com , 2/01/2011) http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=206121

"Forget Arab Democracy, Let's Pretend It's about Israel by Anne Bayefsky, Benjamin Weinthal" (February 21, 2011) http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=7734&pubType=HI_Opeds

February 23, 2011 at 5:29 p.m.
alprova said...

Sailorman wrote: "Y'know Al I almost envy your flexibility. As I recall, you were against guns until you were mugged."


Nope, sorry, you have the wrong man. I've never been mugged.

What I did say, was that when a man happened upon my property up in Minnesota and threatened my wife, was that I did immediately arm both my wife and myself. It's not that had a thing against guns. I just never felt the need to have one.


"You were fine with insurance until you got screwed (and you were)."


I think I'm more than justified in that 180 degree turn. $480,000 in fact, not to mention the $12,000+ in premiums paid over a decade that went to paying for an ambulance, an emergency room bill, and then they immediately canceled the policy.


"Now you're supporting unions. Guess you're never to old to learn."


I'm not there yet, but a balance must be maintained so that we do not set this nation back an eon in terms of working conditions and rights.

I don't care for the way that Governor Scott Walker is going after the teacher's union. Absent in all of this, is why collective bargaining is a part of the issue at all. It's strictly an effort to hamstring the teachers.

The fact that he is doing it six weeks after taking office without their support seems suspiciously vindictive on his part, if you ask me.

It's not right.

February 23, 2011 at 5:38 p.m.
mtngrl said...

Francis stated: "by the way...the polls look bad for unions, teachers and state workers in wisconsin.."

Proof he gets his nonsense from Fox:

http://www.addictinginfo.org/?p=1908

February 23, 2011 at 5:42 p.m.
alprova said...

Correction: The premiums paid over ten years for our health insurance came to around $146,000.

February 23, 2011 at 5:43 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339: " I can't get too concerned about Wisconsin and their educational systems, pay etc. unless if the unions prevail and it causes a reaction locally."

Speaking of Tennessee, I heard at lunch today that Tennessee Republicans Casada and Ketron are sponsoring a bill that would make it illegal for the Tennessee Education Association to make any kind of political contribution to any political candidate.

February 23, 2011 at 5:45 p.m.
tderng said...

If you need steel-toed jackboots just call the union bosses to find out where the best place is to buy them! They are the biggest most corrupt thugs around.They force people to join or go unemployed.Pay dues even if you disagree with what they are spending the dues on, do not want nor will allow a private vote on whether you still want a union in your workplace.If you dare to voice an opinion against the union you can bet you will be paid a visit by these jackbooted thugs. BEEN THERE DONE THAT.

February 23, 2011 at 6:02 p.m.
canarysong said...

Mountainlaurel;

So this would mean that a corporation (a group of stockholders, even if many of them are foreign) has the right of an individual to make political contributions (unlimited$) as they please, but a group of workers does not. This is democracy, huh?

February 23, 2011 at 6:08 p.m.
alprova said...

Mountainlaurel wrote: "Speaking of Tennessee, I heard at lunch today that Tennessee Republicans Casada and Ketron are sponsoring a bill that would make it illegal for the Tennessee Education Association to make any kind of political contribution to any political candidate."


I have my doubts that their bill will pass on any level, and even if it does, a court of law will throw it out. I'm going to do some research on it when I get some time.

Wow...my search for that bill led to me finding this;

BILL # SB 113 -- AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Section 5-23-107 and Title 49, relative to the Education Professional Negotiations Act

Bill Overview -- SB113 is the companion Senate bill to HB130. This bill is certainly not anti-teacher – it is anti-union collective bargaining. The bill will not affect any contracts that are already in place prior to the law’s passage. Further, the bill does not abolish unions, it simply prevents their participation in collective bargaining.

http://www.tngovwatch.org/2011/02/become-involved-in-tenn-politics-make-a-difference-lots-of-meetingsgatherings-information-on-state-bills-and-ways-you-can-help/

This crap in Wisconsin may well be a smoke screen while the Republicans go after teacher's unions nationwide. I'm betting that the teachers in Tennessee are not even aware of this bill, that was voted on a week ago.

February 23, 2011 at 6:14 p.m.
Clara said...

It seems that England is having troubles, also, in cutting their budgets. I wonder if WE have no-jobs in the U.S.

The titles are FUNNY...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12549785

February 23, 2011 at 6:18 p.m.
potcat said...

This cartoon says to me that at this time BOSSHOG has slowly ie REPUBS has done away with the working persons voice to be heard and represented.IN 40years if it keeps going the way it has been and it seems the working public is stupidly going agianst thier own best interest and economic incentive thats what it will be. I think in 10 yrs. every working person will be at the mercy of Dictator BOSSHOG.That is if you have a JOB! Then you will see thr Revolution thats coming. What will any one have to lose at that point.

February 23, 2011 at 6:25 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Canarysong said: "So this would mean that a corporation (a group of stockholders, even if many of them are foreign) has the right of an individual to make political contributions (unlimited$) as they please, but a group of workers does not. This is democracy, huh?"

Yes, I looked up the the Tennessee Bill. Officially, it is HB 160/SB 139 and it is sponsored by Republican Bill Ketron in Murfreesboro and Glen Casada in College Grove

Indeed, it would make it illegal for the Tennessee Education Association’s Political Action Committee to make contributions to any political candidates.

It seems rather odd to me too, Canarysong. I thought politicians loved PAC money. But I guess TN Republicans just don't like anybody to get the Teacher Education Association’s PAC money.

February 23, 2011 at 6:53 p.m.
Sailorman said...

canarysong and ML

Easy solution - get your government to confer on the TEA pac the same legal status as a corporation. Or maybe the pac can incorporate - I have no idea.

Whatever, that decision by the supremes re corporate contributions was a travesty.

February 23, 2011 at 7:26 p.m.
hambone said...

I see the line of discussion has turned into AAF!

All About Francis!

Sick!

February 23, 2011 at 7:27 p.m.
canarysong said...

Mountainlaurel, re 6:53pm post;

Seems pretty clear why, doesn't it?

Sailorman, re 4:55 pm post;

I don't really have time for this, but it has been bugging me for two hours....

You implied that alprova changes his opinions on issues when it suddenly becomes in his best interest to do so. I remember his two posts that you mentioned very well because they made a very strong impression on me. He talked about how his wife's accident made him realize the fragility of what we have and that it can be gone so quickly and unexpectedly. I remember him going on to emphasize the importance of having compassion for others; I wish i could remember this part better, it really was beautiful (actually brought tears to my eyes,). Unlike you, I saw someone who realized that there are many, many, good people who, in a similar situation would never be able to recover economically the way that he apparently has. I saw compassion and understanding born of experience, not self-interest.

February 23, 2011 at 7:35 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Goodness, there appears to be some other things going on in TN as well, Alprova.

In addition to the bill you found taking TN teachers’ negotiation rights away, and the bill that I heard about taking their right to contribute PAC money to political candidates away, I found a couple of more bills involving teachers that are also sponsored by Republicans:

HB159/SB 136 - This bill forbids payroll dues deductions for TN public employees. Republicans Glen Casada in College Grove and Bill Ketron in Murfreesboro sponsor it.

SB 102 – It essentially says the Tennessee Education Association does not have the right to elect teacher representatives on the Board of Trustees of the Tennessee of the Tennessee Consolidated Retirement System. Republican Senator Gresham in Summerville sponsored it.

February 23, 2011 at 7:51 p.m.
Sailorman said...

canary

gee that nearly brought tears to MY eyes. Unless you were here under another name, you couldn't possibly remember "those two posts" as the ones I was talking about were last year. Maybe he said it again I don't know.

Believe what you want. Alprova's statement that he is a proud budding and accomplished communist/socialist made more of an impression on me. One can disagree with insurance, for example, without going off the deep end.

I doubt he needs you to defend him anyway - he's quite capable.

Canarysong hmmmm maybe canaryinthecoalmine's reincarnated evil twin? :)

February 23, 2011 at 7:51 p.m.
BobMKE said...

Al, I retired after 30 HONEST years. After I retired I worked for 8 years for a private backgrounding company which included conducting polygraph examinations. In 2007 the department brought back seven retired detectives, sergeants, and lieutenants and created an Investigator position to conduct backgrounds for new employees in the police and fire departments. Since 2007 30 more were hired as investigators and assigned to other areas of the department. If backgrounds are slow I work the Homicide-Cold Case Unit. Yes we get a second pension, but the department's pension system will never run out of money because the City cannot raid it, but they have tried. Our system is not part of the State system. Yes the City is hurting also and yes our positions can be eliminated. I support Gov Walker and he will win this battle and other States will follow. Nothing lasts forever and again, "What can't go on forever WON'T."

February 23, 2011 at 7:59 p.m.
canarysong said...

Sailorman;

Please, surely you're not going to join the other delusional commentators with their conspiracy theories. BTW, who on earth is "canaryinacoalmine"?

I have never jumped to alprova's defense before because, as you pointed out, he hardly needs me to do so. But the posts (one in particular) were from January, and I meant exactly what I said. It moved me because I had experienced similarly painful epiphanies in my own life.

It simply bothers me when I see someone's character being unfairly attacked, and since I have a big mouth I can't help but speak up.

If you have been fortunate not to have been "brought to your knees" as I think alprova may have put it, then I am truly happy for you. But hang on, life often takes us for a bumpy ride!

February 23, 2011 at 8:18 p.m.
canarysong said...

Sailorman;

I just re-read your post and realized my terrible error. I forgot that all communists and socialists are evil incarnate. Silly me!

February 23, 2011 at 8:44 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

Ahh, yes BobMke, another former city employee who is now retired after reaping the benefits of pension benefits, health insurance and collective bargaining, who sees fit to turn against his own. Oh, but I forgot, policeman only support their own, right? Oh, and Scott Walker is not going after police or firemen in his budget cuts is he?

Everything was fine as long as you reaped the benefits of people who fought for the benefits that you now casually toss aside as unnecessary. Hurray for you and screw the people who ask for the same as you received, huh?

You are like several other conservative posters here who are on the government tit for their health care, pension and loudly decry anyone else who would seek these benefits.

At least the Wisconsin firefighter and police unions are opposed to the changes Walker is supporting.

Oh well, at least you gave 30 "honest" years. To bad your loyalty is lacking in the principles that allowed you to receive your health care, 40 hour work weeks, pensions, overtime, etc.

You can thank unions for that you ungrateful @%$*&.

February 23, 2011 at 9:05 p.m.
BobMKE said...

hotdiggity

I'm a realist. Nothing lasts forever. What can't go on for ever Won't. I am a tax payer for 365 days a year. I have children and grandchildren and I think about their future which really doesn't look so good right for them. Yes you are right that the union did good things for me and others but again the private sector can not sustain the costs of the public unions any more. The vast majority, including myself, of public workers did not go into our professions for the money which was quite low when I started. We went into our professions to help people, teach children,and serve the public. The gap between the private and public section has widened and it can't be maintained any more. I have and use common sense and I know that common sense is not so common.

February 23, 2011 at 9:59 p.m.
alprova said...

hotdiggity wrote: "You are like several other conservative posters here who are on the government tit for their health care, pension and loudly decry anyone else who would seek these benefits."


After I read what he posted, my mouth hit the floor. That he actually had the audacity to post it, is what amazed me the most. If I were to challenge it on any level, the man would come back with some crap that he is entitled to what he has because he risked his life in the course of doing his job. And to that I say, so what? So do other people.

Given that which we have seen in the news over the years, the chances of a Wisconsin teacher being shot on the job is about as equal to that of a Milwaukee police detective.


"At least the Wisconsin firefighter and police unions are opposed to the changes Walker is supporting."


As they should be.


"Oh well, at least you gave 30 "honest" years. To bad your loyalty is lacking in the principles that allowed you to receive your health care, 40 hour work weeks, pensions, overtime, etc."


Bob thinks he sits on solid ground. He said it himself. "Nothing lasts forever."

What a weasel. I don't think I will ever be able to read a word he writes after this, without remembering what a weasel the man is. I wish I could state that I am surprised, but I'm not. I've had opportunity to meet people like him all my life.


"You can thank unions for that you ungrateful @%$*&."


Bob's the kind of man who thanks no one for a thing. He thinks he did it all by himself.

Karma will catch up to him, and he will one day remember this day and this exchange. Good luck Bob.

February 23, 2011 at 10:12 p.m.
tderng said...

Well said BobMKE! Some people just can't see the future for their own prejudices. Some people don't care that a whole bunch of people may lose their jobs because a company or government can't afford the out of this world benefits that they have been forced to agree to to remain in business. My father worked for a business for over forty years that offered their employees a chance to go union every two or three years.It was always overwhelmingly voted against every time. I asked him why they didn't go union...his answer was that a union would eventually force his company out of business and they wanted a better possibility of long term employeement.

February 23, 2011 at 10:23 p.m.
alprova said...

BobMKE wrote: "The gap between the private and public section has widened and it can't be maintained any more. I have and use common sense and I know that common sense is not so common."


Have you EVER taken the time to understand why that is the case?

Can you think of ANY possible reason why that gap has widened and what it is directly related to?

Income. Who has it and who lost it?

You're sitting there blaming the unions, you goof, rather than to do a couple of hours research into who the hell is siphoning off the income that middle and lower income people used to enjoy and could amass.

You're worshiping the very people who are killing this country and left alone, will finish it off and hop the first plane or boat when the job is finished for good.

I used to be sitting right where you are now. My curiosity got the best of me and I started digging into things like the Reagan years and all the applicable events that slowly have led this nation to financial ruin.

I don't blame you though. You've got your pensions...for now. You couldn't care less. But if for some reason, the state or the city finds a way to alter things, you're going to wail and moan to Heaven above. And it can happen, regardless what you think. A city in financial distress eyeballing a funded pension plan?

It's like turning out the lights with 12 people with a fork in their hand while looking at the last pork chop on a plate. "Ouch!!" is going to be heard repeatedly over the next couple of seconds.

Had you been where I was three years ago, with volatile investments in place that lost 40% of their value almost overnight, after five years of growth, you'd have been much more inquisitorial about the situation.

Just remember this -- nothing is safe. There are always loopholes in every contract, especially when it comes to pensions. If and when the time comes that someone desires to do away with yours, it will be gone.

You just help elect the kind of leader that will upend that entire state, for the benefit of a few.

Let's see if you're still warbling the same tune three years and 11 months from now.

February 23, 2011 at 10:33 p.m.

Did anyone notice that the guy in the cartoon is hard at work reading the newspaper on the job?

February 23, 2011 at 10:41 p.m.
alprova said...

tderng wrote: "My father worked for a business for over forty years that offered their employees a chance to go union every two or three years."


Your statement is a provable lie. I hate to be so blunt, but as presented it could not begin to be the truth. I'm not going to explain it to you either.

Anyone who knows anything at all about how unions come to represent workers, knows why the statement could never be true.

Would you care to fess up that it is a lie, or will someone else point out the error in what you attest occurred for a company over a 40 year period?

It never happened.

February 23, 2011 at 10:42 p.m.
alprova said...

wwwtw wrote: "Did anyone notice that the guy in the cartoon is hard at work reading the newspaper on the job?"


I gave him the benefit of the doubt and assumed that he was taking a ten or fifteen minute break. The boss wasn't eyeballing him, so it must have been okay for him to read the paper at 2:16 in the afternoon.

February 23, 2011 at 10:46 p.m.

Alprova wrote:

"You're sitting there blaming the unions, you goof, rather than to do a couple of hours research into who the hell is siphoning off the income that middle and lower income people used to enjoy and could amass."


We also demand lifestyles that our grandparents and most of the world right now would consider unbelievable luxuries. Forty hour work weeks? Are you kidding?

And besides, how dare we demand higher wages when the rest of the world is living on so little? Pure greed and insensitivity!!!!!!!!!!! (irony)

The zero-sum economics game. It brings out the exclamation points like nothing else.

February 23, 2011 at 10:58 p.m.
eel said...

Bahrain?!?!?!?!

LOL!! Never heard of the country before yesterday!

The pursuit of liberty is so educational

February 23, 2011 at 11:14 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

Milwaukee Bob wrote, "... the union did good things for me and others but again the private sector can not sustain the costs of the public unions any more. The vast majority, including myself, of public workers did not go into our professions for the money... "

Look Bob, it's unfortunate that you have been the target of ridicule. Don't worry. I'll stand up for you. Someone once said, "I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

I am heartened in times like these by the courage exhibited by the Founding Fathers. These guys declared war on a global power which had a seasoned military and unlimited resources. Franklin said, "If we don't stand together we'll hang individually."

In times like these we must draw on their strength and commitment to fight for what's right. I believe in your heart you are a character guy, a man who stands up for his principles. You're not afraid to speak your mind and I admire that.

It's a fact: state and local governments all over the Country are facing financial difficulty and everyone needs to pitch in and do their part!

Being a character guy who stands up for his principles I trust you'll do the honorable thing and return your monthly pension check. Also refuse all other retirement benefits as a show of solidarity with Governor Walker. Show those filthy Union bastards what the government can do with those commie benefits .

You're probably thinking, "But Mr. Water, it's such a pittance in the grand scheme of things, how will that help?"

Look Bob, you're a character guy and a man of principles. You just have to do what's morally right.

Think of it this way: "Nothing lasts forever."

February 23, 2011 at 11:34 p.m.
hambone said...

After hearing the tape of Scott Walker and the bogus David Koch. The outrage of people in Wisconsin over it. If they are smart the GOP legislatorsin Wisconsin will withdraw their bill first thingin the morning and start impeachment of Gov. Walker ASAP, to save face!

February 23, 2011 at 11:42 p.m.
fairmon said...

Should there be a brotherhood of tax payers union (TTPU) to represent tax payers and negotiate with all public employee unions? Politicians are legislatures and administrators but not negotiators. They both use and abuse the tax payers. an unhappy public or government employee should move to a unionized employer in the private sector. They can demand whatever they desire and if unreasonable put the company out of business. That is not possible in the public sector since the government can confiscate as much as needed from tax payers to meet demands.

February 24, 2011 at 5:39 a.m.
delmar said...

harp3339 - "Should there be a brotherhood of tax payers union (TTPU) to represent tax payers and negotiate with all public employee unions?"

So could the public employees join your tax payer union too? Because they pay taxes too.

February 24, 2011 at 7:35 a.m.
fairmon said...

delmar,

If they pay dues they could join the tax payers union but not vote due to their conflict of interest.

February 24, 2011 at 9:24 a.m.

Dupes: How America's Adversaries have Manipulated Progressives for a Century (by Paul Kengor, political science Professor, Grove City College)

Kengor provides "mountains of research" and evidence of all the damage caused by enemies of our country-for decades.

Examples of Dupes being played by Dictators:

Sen. Edward Kennedy "approached the Soviet Union leadership to undermine not one, but two American presidents (Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan) as revealed in a KGB memo.

My, how the dissipation and immoral choices of a life gone wicked show on one's face before one dies-and follows one to the grave..and beyond. Kengor notes that "American journalists flatly refused to cover the story in the two decades since the London Times first mentioned the document in 1992...and when "that same file subsequently was published in full by the same author"...in his 2006 work 'The Crusader' (on Reagan).

Frank Marshall Davis, (young Obama's mentor, mentioned as such in his Bio)"was a long time member of the Communist Party"; evidence reveals his CP card number and a signed statement by Davis. He was "a hard-core communist who did the Kremlin's bidding at every turn.."

other Dupe examples include:

Jimmy Carter's "fatal miscalculations in dealing with communism and Islamism"; Radicals from the 1960's re-emerging as Progressives for Obama" (gee, who would've thunk?); FDR being "duped by Uncle Joe Stalin following WW11..(think that 'New Deal' could've been the same ole, same ole?); Soviet Union's "disinformation role in Sen. John Kerry's war crimes accusations against American soldiers; various Hollywood stars and their handlers...

"As the Soviets aimed for world dominion, they targeted American Liberals, especially academics and the religious Left. Liberals still defend the Communists who trashed Roosevelt, Harry Truman, JFK and the anti-communists who tried to alert them".

February 24, 2011 at 12:06 p.m.

More dupes and dupers include "Arthur Miller, the anti-McCarthy drama, Benjamin Spock, Upton Sinclair, George Bernard Shaw, Lillian Hellman (a hateful Stalinist playwright), Howard Zinn (Communist Party member and 'historian' whose distortions are used in schools all across America), Walter Cronkite (most trusted man in America), and Helen Thomas (disgraced 'dean' of the White House press corps)". This short list sheds light on just how in the dark Americans have been all these decades, while they were busy building families, businesses, homes and a country. Much was kept from their eyes and ears.

Kengor says that the "extreme Left (and Islamic terrorists in this country) can never succeed in America, even incrementally, without non-extremists helping to spread and implement its far-Left goals. Hear that little Prog-Bots? Do y'all volunteer your services or does Mammy Master cut some of you a check at the end of the month?

FDR realized, too late, that Stalin had used him at Yalta and Tehran.."but Stalin could not have succeeded if FDR had not trusted people around him who were communists..Alger Hiss, Harry Hopkins...defined by Soviet officials as agents of major significance.. and the most important of all Soviet wartime agents in the US." This truth still stands today.

and the beat goes on..the voluminous examples and evidence in the above book should have been exposed over the years "if Congress had done its job of investigating internal subversion...Americans might urge (this) Congress to revive the House Committee on Internal Security"..or is that too McCarthy-istic for some in this country? Maybe it's better then to go back to sleep, lullaby and good night all.

***an un-paid community service, brought to you by your friendly, neighborhood @>

February 24, 2011 at 12:08 p.m.
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