published Thursday, March 31st, 2011

Hard Right

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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AndrewLohr said...

Our President blew up the deficit, and at the same time blew up the jobless rate, so trying to cut $60 billion from a budget (or continuing resolution) of $3,600,000,000,000--a 2% cut--is a hard right turn? Jesus is normal, the rest of us are weird, and liberals are very strange indeed.

March 31, 2011 at 12:42 a.m.
canarysong said...

I guess they didn't see Ollie's sign.

It's another great cartoon, Clay! Let the right wing screeching begin......

March 31, 2011 at 1 a.m.
codymaxwell said...

These types of fatalistic politics make me sick. The only thing that makes me sicker is how true the image really is. Jivvery kudos, Clay.

Either you're "far" this or you're an "extreme" this, or you're not in the race. Compromising means you have no backbone and will ruin the hopes of everybody.

Pick a side--

March 31, 2011 at 1:02 a.m.

This will be comical. Come on rightes.

March 31, 2011 at 1:09 a.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

Excellent Clay! One of your best.

March 31, 2011 at 3:49 a.m.

What would happen if you took a hard left turn?

March 31, 2011 at 4:58 a.m.
najones75 said...

Notice Andrew, that no one adds any rebuttal to the ridiculousness that a 2% budget cut is extreme. Such is the norm with this crew...

March 31, 2011 at 6:05 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I think this may reflect the "turn" towards fundamentalist religion and social conservatism that seems to be the most pervasive theme in the GOP hopefuls feeling out a possible run in 2012. Newt, Bachmann, Pawlenty, Huckabee, all of them have made appearances and emphasized specifically conservative Christian ideas by name.

March 31, 2011 at 7:07 a.m.
woody said...

First, it would appear as though donkeys aren't the only ones who might wear blinders. And, I can say, without too much fear of contradiction, that if you make enough 'rights' you will end up 'left' without ever having to actually make the 'turn'.

Oh, by the way, "Mule Day" is coming..Woody

March 31, 2011 at 7:12 a.m.
dude_abides said...

"Jesus is normal, the rest of us are weird, and liberals are very strange indeed." -AndrewLohr Where would this assessment place the Tea Party Republicans I heard about this morning that have received like $90 trillion for each pocket in farm subsidies (which are not, apparently, on the table for cuts)? Would you say they fall into the normal/Jesus category?

March 31, 2011 at 7:23 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

Andrew- Please be careful what you are saying on this . Both sides are guilty in the mess we are in. Both sides are living in glass houses. And because nobody is willing to see where one could be right and one could be wrong...we are going to end up in a ditch that we are not going to be able to get out of.

March 31, 2011 at 7:50 a.m.

On days when resident liberals (or "moderate" posers) praise Clay's offering as "another great cartoon, atta boy" or "one of your best yet" ...

Or when it involves a silly "left/right" dichotomy or brandishes slippery, meaningless words like "extreme," "hard right," and "far right" ...

You'll know he's come up with another vapid, touchy-feely therapy session for liberals to crow about their strawman ClayMonkey - or coo about how intelligent they are for being on the left side of a non-issue. Good grief.

I know I shouldn't respond in kind, but ... If the car of the People’s House veered right, it's because the public swerved to avoid hitting the Student Driver speeding out-of-control and zig-zagging recklessly in the opposite lane.

Come on, Clay. Where's the beef?


lkeithlu said ...

[among other things] "... specifically conservative Christian ideas by name."

It seems that when candidates of any party speak to religious groups or voters, their remarks will address issues of particular concern to those voters. I’m uncertain about the nature of your objection. So, advisedly, I'll have to ask for a clarification. Would you care to identify which specific ideas you have in mind?


And now ... isn’t about that time for the decoy [ClayMonkey] to set up some pylons and steer everyone back toward the notion that the left ditch is actually the middle of the road?

March 31, 2011 at 8:08 a.m.
najones75 said...

Dude, do you even know what a trillion is? I wasn't sure what you were talking about so did a little research. Total subsidies last year were 16 billion...about 0.5% of budget. I'm sure you randomly heard something on msnbc and decided to run with that, yet you inflate it to a totally absurd number like 90 trillion? Okie-dokie...

March 31, 2011 at 8:16 a.m.
OllieH said...

I agree with lkeithlu. Perhaps the cartoon represents far more than just the squabbling over this year's budget figures. Notice that the car is not identified as the country, or the budget, but rather it's labeled as the congress itself. Certainly, the uncompromising positions of the House Republicans and the dramatic turn to the right imposed by its tea party caucus, are the root cause of the current consternation in Washington.

AndrewLohr makes the point that cutting billions from a budget of trillions is not a hard turn of any kind, but you really have to look at who bears the brunt of those cuts to see the budget's radical nature. If you do, you'll see that the list of the agencies and programs that really seem to take it on the chin in the House budget plan is a dramatic change in our country's direction, indeed.

Below, are some of the more dramatic cuts in the Budget proposed by Boehner, Cantor and the wrecking crew currently controlling the House of Representatives. The cuts target many of the usual pet peeves of the right wingers- science, environmentalism, health and nutrition, renewable energy, education and poor folks- lots and lots of poor folks.

The House budget is an absolute abomination. The elected officials who proposed it should be ashamed of themselves, and we should be shamed by the fact that we elected these barbarians to represent us.

Here's some of the GOP proposed budget cuts:

$2 billion- Job Training Programs

$1.7 billion- GSA Federal Buildings Fund (making governmental buildings energy efficiency)

$1.6 billion- EPA (Environmental Protection Agency)

$1.4 billion- DOE Loan Guarantee Authority (clean energy loans)

$1.3 billion- Community Health Centers

$1.1 billion- Office of Science

$1 billion- NIH (National Institutes of Health)

$1 billion- High Speed Rail

$899 million- Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy

$758 million- WIC (nutrition program for women, infants, and children)

$755 million- CDC (Center for Disease Control)

$544 million- International Food Aid grants

$530 million- HUD Community Development Fund

$327 million- Family Planning (completely defunding Planned Parenthood)

I don't know about AndrewLohr, but to me this looks like a pretty hard turn to the right.

March 31, 2011 at 8:34 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Andrew - in my opinion, Jim Wallis has much better answers to the question WWJD with respect to considering American political issues through the lens of the Christian Scripture than anyone in either the Libertarian or conservative Republican camps.

March 31, 2011 at 9:18 a.m.
limric said...

A great one Clay. A round of applause.

The crash must have occurred while trying to avoid a bankster, or one of the Koch brothers - because if it were someone other than a rich donor they would have driven right over them. Honking wildly.

Oh, and don’t forget. You get clean up the road, pay for the towing, the repairs, and all medical expenses. After which they will give the repaired vehicle to their best friend. Then demand a new car and gas money for their next road trip.

March 31, 2011 at 9:30 a.m.
hambone said...

With such a hard right turn, how come there are so many Republicans in NASCAR?

March 31, 2011 at 9:32 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

My point is that the last time the GOP went the "values" route they went too far, bringing in fundamentalists but alienating almost everyone else. Running on an extreme conservative social agenda hasn't worked in the past, and those that have been elected to "end abortion, put God back into schools and restore the traditional marriage" have disappointed then because they could not or would not fulfill these promises.

March 31, 2011 at 9:33 a.m.
fairmon said...

What a dilemma. We don't have a licensed driver in congress capable of accident prevention. No one is willing to give up anything they think is good and no one is willing to increase tax rates to equal spending. It is easy to point to those that support programs other than those we favor and insist they be cut to save ours. It is easy to point to those in tax brackets above ours and insist they pay more to fund programs we value. It is easy to place blame to justify continuing to drive recklessly.

It appears the only solution is to increase every tax rate with the higher rates taking a bigger hit to a level that is equal to spending. Why do we not pay as we go? Why shouldn't we pay as we go? If you support the programs listed by OllieH that is no problem if you are willing to also fund programs others feel strongly about. You should be willing to do anything you ask or insist others do. Are you willing to be taxed sufficiently to pay as we go or do you insist on increasing the debt and passing it on to your children and generations beyond?

Selfishness, ego, greed, envy, and fear are all strong motivators. At the current rate of increase the debt will double about every four years. Are we prepared for the results that will soon move fear to the number one position.

The attitude of both parties are like a mother saying my pretty baby deserves attention and pampering bur your ugly baby doesn't, it should be aborted. Write your congressional member and urge them to increase taxes as much as necessary to save your favored programs.

March 31, 2011 at 9:35 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

another dud by a democrat party hack.

i didn't see him coming up with a similar cartoon when obama was elected with a car taking a hard left turn? of course not, because he's all about propaganda.

it would take a sharp turn to the right given how far obama drove like a maniac to the left from day one.

obama took a sharp left turn after he was elected. he campaigned as a moderate and succeeded, with the help of the liberal media, in swaying a lazy electorate. many of whom just thought it would be cool to finally have a black president. never mind that his background is overwhelmingly anti- american and ant-constitution.....and leans communist, facist...depending on his mood......

a quinnipiac college poll....which in the past has proven to be pretty accurate...states that only 41% of those polled feel obama deserves a second term. i'd say it's less than that.

repbublicans and democrats are both responsible for our financial mess...probably 65% democrat and 35% republican.....the fm & fm fiasco..very much triggered the whole thing.....that was a democrat party mess...republicans have been worthless because they talked a good game but didn't enough......the only people who are attempting to do something about it are the new republicans elected in nov, 2010..and the tea party people....you libs can put down the tea party all you want.....but, they're the ones who are at the core of trying to fix this mess.

March 31, 2011 at 9:38 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

No doubt swerved to avoid a pack of illegal aliens running across the interstate to the welfare office, being led by those Democrat "coyotes" signing up fraudulent voters.

March 31, 2011 at 10:04 a.m.

harp3339 said...

“What a dilemma … No one is willing to give up anything they think is good and no one is willing to increase tax rates to equal spending … Why do we not pay as we go? Why shouldn't we pay as we go? … Selfishness, ego, greed, envy, and fear are all strong motivators.”

So … it is about … values … more than it is about … winning an election … or passing a particular bill … or wearing a particular label?

Hmm.

I'm inclined to agree.


keithlu said... “My point is that the last time the GOP went the "values" route they went too far, bringing in fundamentalists but alienating almost everyone else. Running on an extreme conservative social agenda hasn't worked in the past, and those that have been elected to "end abortion, put God back into schools and restore the traditional marriage" have disappointed then because they could not or would not fulfill these promises.”

As far as electability, Republicans lose when they nominate “moderates” like John McCain. I’m not sure how anyone could classify him as more conservative than two-termers like Reagan and W. Utopians in both parties become disappointed by the slowness, inefficiency, and moderating effects of democracy. (Those who fell for Obama’s candyland jingles during his campaign come to mind.) It’s built into the system. They say ours is the worst form of government … except for all the other forms.

For both parties, as well as independents (and maybe especially independents and “moderates” who see themselves as being above party labels), I think UTOPIANISM is more of a problem than a relative and random label like “extremism.” We all expect government to do too much. Someone has wisely said that the first thing to say about politics is that politics is not the first thing.

I know I’m pushing it here, but I was also wondering if you could name a candidate or officeholder in either party who does not appeal to popular values when running for office or making policy arguments.

March 31, 2011 at 10:47 a.m.
limric said...

Dang whatsnottaken, that's pretty good.

Or maybe the reason the car is so smashed up is that their getaway car ran into a group of loud,slovenly, lazy, greedy, communist union demonstrators, and teachers! Who then proceeded to repossess the duffel bags of honest taxpayer cash they found in the back and redistribute it to the whiney downtrodden female Wal Mart workers - who in turn paid off their attorneys - that invested some of that cash on Wall Street - which is in the process of filling more duffel bags.

March 31, 2011 at 10:52 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

clay is back to his old tricks. The democRATic party pushes the country to the brink of bankruptcy with reckless spending and then sits back to let the fiscally conservative side of the Republican party try to fix the mess, waiting for the opportunity to describe every attempt to moderate spending as "RACIST, HATEFUL, EXTREME…".

Then the good little socialist soldiers in the media (clay) come forward in lock step somehow calling a fraction of a percent cut in spending as a hard right turn… and the libs that haunt this page praise clay’s thoughtless, predictable work as great stuff. I notice that the majority of clay’s cheering section is not from the Chattanooga area. Can’t we send this dork to the Huffington post where he will be more appreciated?

Progressive drivel designed to misinform = clay bennett’s typical work

March 31, 2011 at 11:18 a.m.
BluesHarp said...

"Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all." -John W. Gardner

“In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.” -George Orwell

"There are three classes of men; the retrograde, the stationary and the progressive." - Johann Kaspar Lavater

"At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols." - Aldous Huxley

"Fanaticism consists of redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim." - George Santayana

March 31, 2011 at 11:44 a.m.

Whatsnottaken,I really don’t feel like spending the entire day in an argument but here is goes…do you ever plan to post anything that doesn’t make you sound like a racist?

Limric, not that it matters to you I’m sure but I thought more of you than that to agree with such disgusting rhetoric, I was wrong. Getting older means discovering humanity can be so dissappointing.

March 31, 2011 at 11:49 a.m.
potcat said...

Did any of you genius's read the papper today? Business section C2 " Banks to use U.S. dole to repay federal bailout". Some banks will use money from a goverment program aimed at increasing small business loans to repay their federal bailouts. Acting Assistant Secretary Timothy Massad said Wednesday that treasury has yet to grant approval to any banks seeking to use money from the Small Business Lending Fund to repay their bailouts,"but they will." I call that talking out of both sides of the mouth..Double Speak...Criminal...

March 31, 2011 at 11:51 a.m.
SavartiTN said...

I think that they wrecked because SeaMonkey ran out in the road.

March 31, 2011 at 12:06 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

Andrew, Jesus wasn't "normal" in his day. He was a radical. A liberal. Considered "strange" by the ones in charge. I suppose that it would be a compliment to say that liberals are stange indeed. Thank you.

March 31, 2011 at 12:09 p.m.
woody said...

Harp..I've got to tell you..I just came back to review what had been posted since I left this morning and your 9:35 am post was the only one to really stand out.

Oh, I expected differing opinions alright, and nothing could keep "Sea" from making "Monkey Doo" out of himself..but yours was 'spot on', bar none.

Keep up the good work..Woody

March 31, 2011 at 12:20 p.m.
potcat said...

I think bigridge was driving and monkey was riding shotgun when big screamed to monk he was getting static and monk reached over to adjust his rabbit ears and they saw whatnot and THANK GOD THE WITCH IS DEAD!

March 31, 2011 at 12:29 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

that's good, savartitn....i suggest you get your yours- self checked out by a doctor. those bulging eyes in your avatar indicate you might have a thyroid problem.

blkfemlibnproud.......every criticism and every opnion that differs from you libs' is racist, bigoted and anti-woman.

you libs show no ability or desire to criticize your own or call them out for corruption, lies and icompetence..that's why you love bennett's cartoons....many independents and republicans took a chance on obama and voted for him.. pushing him over the top...if not for them, he wouldn't have won. america is not a liberal/lefty country, it's more in the center. obama duped them and then raced to the left.

you dem/libs are hopeless party hacks and stupidly loyal.

March 31, 2011 at 12:29 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

there's a sale on preperation h at rite aid, woody.. i suggest you take advantage of it. "-nuff said",

March 31, 2011 at 12:38 p.m.

Actually SeaMonkey I thought this would be a great place to discuss REAL politics and local issues, not banter back and fourth with people CONSTANTLY referencing race. I am MORE than happy to reexamine my views and be proven wrong, I actually read every post line by line and listen to both sides before commenting unlike you, spouting off into anti-liberal tantrums. And your darn skippy I will interject EVERY time someone says something wrong because I’m SICK of living in a world where people don’t stand up for what’s right, want to discuss politics, let’s do that, want to talk about “black thugs” and “welfare aliens” and crap then go to one of those specially catered hatred sites, not Chattanooga Times Free Press!

March 31, 2011 at 12:58 p.m.
limric said...

BlckFemiLibNproud,

Read my first post. Thats ok I'll wait....Then re-read my second post. It's tongue in cheek my dear, tongue in cheek. See any differences? Notice some key words and phrases -'their getaway car', 'duffel bags of honest taxpayer cash, 'Wall Street', filling more duffel bags'.

Notice also the dog whistle words, 'lazy, greedy, communist union demonstrators, teachers', 'downtrodden female Wal Mart workers'.

The tenor of the post shows the right wing getting caught ripping us off and who pays them. My use of "disgusting rhetoric" is a way to ignite the rage of the continuously frightened FOX news conservatard.

This is how to use the 'garbage can lid of freedom'. It's not just a defensive piece of galvanized steel.

Cheerio
March 31, 2011 at 1:12 p.m.
limric said...

SavartiTN said...

"I think that they wrecked because SeaMonkey ran out in the road."

Wouldn't that look more like an up turned red tricycle.....with streamers? {:-D

March 31, 2011 at 1:23 p.m.
canarysong said...

BlckFemiLibNproud,

You'll get used to our gonzo friend's masterful use of sarcasm and irony. Often the right-wingers that he skewers never even realize that they've been lampooned. He's a good guy. Yesterday's performance wearing his pig nose probably threw you off,.... at least I'm hoping that it was mostly 'performance'! (I'm working on those shirts of yours, Limric; they might have a couple burn marks, though!)

March 31, 2011 at 1:35 p.m.
potcat said...

Throw the STARCH to them Canarysong!

March 31, 2011 at 1:54 p.m.
canarysong said...

Potcat,

I'm saving the starch for his underpants; that will teach him to mess with the "cranky women"! ;-)

March 31, 2011 at 2:05 p.m.
fairmon said...

Not one volunteer to pay for their share of the ride since my post at 9:35. Woody did agree it was on target. Load the wagon and get every whim and want you desire on board. You want to drop a few more 1/2 billion dollar bombs on those in the Mideast that don't behave as we think they should, no problem with me. You want to feed, clothe, provide shelter and health care to everyone that might need it, no problem I can support that. You want to send millions to countries in distress and defend those that have not prepared to defend themselves, I guess we better if others want that I will pay my share. All our infrastructure needs attention and some insist on repairs, I am in. You want every kid to have a free or subsidized college degree, who can argue with that? You want your favorite "stuff" loaded on then we have to let every passenger have theirs loaded and be willing to pay for the ride. The driver must be prohibited from taking credit cards and letting passengers charge their fare. Sorry but there soon won't be enough left to pay for fuel. It matters not if you are a conservative, liberal, libertarian, independent or whatever your preferred label and party alignment it is time to be a realist and understand how reckless the drivers have been and are still being. Does this sound drastic, the action needs to be drastic our situation is critical and requires drastic action. We don't have a spending problem we have a revenue problem, we aren't paying for everything we want and get. Quit being selfish and insisting on getting yours and denying others what they want either for them or others, pay up and we all get what we want. Perhaps Mr. Bennett will draw us a 'toon to portray this tax increase we all want to send along with our letter to our representatives in Washington. So what if it takes every dollar we have, at least we will all be equally impoverished and not envy anyone's success.

The administrations and tea party proposals are like someone that thinks they can raise the level and change the tides by urinating in the ocean. Their cost management process is to cover the windshield and look in the rear view mirrow to see what they ran over.

March 31, 2011 at 2:28 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...
  • List item

Great illustration Clay! I also notice that the vehicle is labeled Congress and not specifically any one particular party. Let me say again, we will never have true control and reform until we do three things, and a true conservative should embrace these ideas. First, earmark reform. I repeat earmark reform. Neither party wants this. Every congressman is for it, until it affects a project in their district, then all of a sudden the game changes. Second, give this President and every future President the line item veto. This places the responsibility for the budget square on his shoulders. Find a state with a balanced budget, and the Governor always has line item veto power. Of course, everyone likes it until it affects a project related to their constituents. Finally, enact real campaign finance reform and not these jokes of a bill that gets passed periodically. Both parties are responsible for this problem. Republicans moan about how Obama did not accept public funds so he could raise money and spend limitless amounts, and then they sought a legal victory that removed limits on contributions from companies to boost their coffers. Both parties are equally at fault to some degree.

As for the upcoming presidential election, I am no Nostradamus, but its looking a lot like 1996 from my viewpoint. The Republicans will slay each other in the primaries and one of two things will either happen. They will get a nominee that is too far right that will not break the 45% barrier, or they will select a moderate such as Mitt Romney. Then out of disillusion the Tea Party faction will attempt a "Ross Perot" pipe dream and foolishly try to run an independent or third party campaign garnering about 15% of the vote and we got 1992 all over again. It is interesting that Sea Monkey thinks that the only people who are trying to do something about it are the new Republicans of the 2010 class. Since none of them are the Speaker of the House, House Majority leader, or chair any Senate committees or subcommittees, just what is it that they are doing? Earmark reform? Nope not happening. Line item veto? Nope not happening. True campaign finance reform? Nope not happening. Talking a big game, playing the politics of fear, and blaming Obama for everything? Ding -Ding -Ding, we have a winner. Personally, I think we should send Ollie up there and let him tell them how to get it done, you my friend see the big picture. Sea Monkey, what is funny about you is, everyone that knows me personally knows that I have actually kept sea monkey aquariums for the last twenty years. I have to order my food through a mail order book just for them, so imagine how interesting it will be to me in 2012 when I get to watch you eat a big plate of crow. I have not seen "crow" on the order form yet. Buckling my seat belt, Tmbrwlfofga

March 31, 2011 at 2:35 p.m.
canarysong said...

Now I really need to get serious.... Ikeithlu's 7:07am post really got me thinking....

This country is obviously lacking wisdom and a clear moral direction and the situation is rapidly becoming worse. The right is grossly misguided at best, and could even be described as immoral, both in its ideology and in the policies that follow from it. It is up to the few of us who are privy to the TRUTH to show them THE WAY. The ONLY route to true enlightenment and the rescue of our country from certain disaster is the path that the Buddha, in his infinite wisdom, laid out for us. It is time for us to stop stubbornly turning away from it.

I can stay silent no longer; it is my duty to make all of you see the truth, even if you don't want to hear it. We need to bring the Buddha's teachings of peace, compassion, and love for humanity to our government so that it may guide them in their decisions.

I wish that all Americans would be forced -- forced at gunpoint no less -- to listen to every message left to us by the Buddha. I believe that the country would be a better place for it.

March 31, 2011 at 2:45 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Sea Monkey, it is funny you throw around the word “incompetence”. First off, notice how I spelled the word. There is an “n” after the letter “I” and before the letter “c”. Also, in the word “opinion”, there is an “I” between the letters “p” and “n”. The word “libs” is plural, so you do not put an apostrophe after the “s”. Also, I love this nation so you should know that you are not paying the appropriate level of respect by not capitalizing the letter “A” that begins the word. Also, you should have capitalized Bennett and Obama. If you look towards the lower left and lower right of your keyboard, there is a shift key. If you press that key while you are pressing a letter key, it will capitalize the word. You cannot allege incompetence on someone, when your writings look like the billboards that the Chick-Filet cows paint. I know they probably did not teach you this in GED school, but if you want to be taken seriously in any way, show some competence yourself and maybe everyone in this forum will stop laughing at you. Just ask one of the nurses at Moccasin Bend for a thesaurus and dictionary, and that would be a great start! Correctly speaking, Tmbrwlfofga

March 31, 2011 at 2:54 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

What would Buddha say about the rapdily increasing debt? I hope it is more specific than the Bubba's that rave on about who is to blame and what should or should not be paid for. If reading and/or bowing to Buddha will force us to face the problem I will read and take a knee and pay whatever is required. Forced at gun point seems a lot like a dictator and imposing on people a religion. We can't force people to pray or post anything publicly that may be construed as imposing on the people any religion which you support. But, now you are willing to require the reading of Buddha? I have to go take blood pressure medicine which I have never used and a headache pill. Oh me, why do I like you?

Phiosophying we get plenty of, logical action is what is lacking.

March 31, 2011 at 3:02 p.m.
fairmon said...

tmbrwlfofga,

I think your prediction regarding the election is probably right and you are right the tea group make noise but have no power or influence. I really don't see anything of note happening in this congress. A wish I have is if the democrats regain control of the house I hope they elect a speaker other than Pelosi. Try as I might I can't like the woman.

March 31, 2011 at 3:10 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Harp, I agree with you about Pelosi. There is just something about her (irregardless of political stances) that most people just do not like about her. The Democrats should pick a more moderate such as Heath Schuler (GO VOLS) or less polarizing leader much like the Republicans did when they selected Dennis Hastert after the fall of Newt Gingrich. When the person becomes a lightning rod and distraction, it goes against the grain of success.

March 31, 2011 at 3:36 p.m.
limric said...

Tmbrwlfofga,

You make some interesting observations. Lets look at a real problem. A huge component of the United States economic disaster, one many forget about and the Government are loath to address. The unwillingness to place the much of blame of our current economic state where it belongs: on the job-killing “free trade” agreements and globalization. Both practices have decimated America’s manufacturing base and destroyed its ability to create wealth or compete in the world economy.

While we persist in our superpower mentality, we have quietly become a second-class country in many respects. Through treaties like the North America Free Trade Agreement, undemocratic and secretive trade deals, regimes like the World Trade Organization and border tax inequities allowed by the WTO, such as the Value-Added Tax which is utilized by 152 of America’s economic competitors. We no longer manufacture what we need to sustain ourselves, we import much more than we export, we sold off our assets and are still taking on massive debts. Not only is this not the way America became an economic superpower but if not reversed, we may lose our sovereignty. The only real comparison between our current state and any other historical perspective is the Depression era and Hoover administration. During the Great Depression we had the capacity to innovate, manufacture and otherwise create wealth that could drag us out of the hole we were in. Today, we no longer have that capability. We have forfeited that ability through disastrous trade policies that have shipped the majority of America’s manufacturing jobs across the border and overseas. Without the capability to manufacture and create wealth, the U.S. will may never truly recover.

Instead, I see both parties (and many posting in this forum) use of Saul Alinsky’s rule 13 (from Rules for Radicals). Rule number 13: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Attack its support network; isolate the target from sympathy; go after its people and institutions. What this is, though, is cruel. It is cruel because it is an attempt to distract Americans from the destruction of their ability to earn a living. It is an attempt to distract you from your plunging economy. It is an attempt to distract you from your ability to save for retirement and to pursue happiness.

We are failing even to acknowledge predatory trade practices that undermined US industry. Instead we, to this day, encourage US manufacturers to design, engineer, and produce in third world markets like Mexico, Korea and China. Pitiful.

March 31, 2011 at 3:56 p.m.

There's nothing clever or witty about this work. Just more of Clay-doh! following the Whitehouse marching orders. ZZZZZ!

March 31, 2011 at 3:56 p.m.
limric said...

Tmbrwlfofga,

"You cannot allege incompetence on someone" This should be "You cannot allege someone of being incompetent." Although It may not be a bad thing to have Canarysong allege her incompetence ON you.

Ok ok...back to my cave

March 31, 2011 at 4:17 p.m.
canarysong said...

Forced at gunpoint, part 2 ....please reread part 1....

How does that sound to you?

Offensive?.... Ridiculous?.... Substitute 'Mohammed', and maybe even 'dangerous'?

How does it sound when someone from the right says the same thing?

"Huckabee: All Americans Should Be Forced at Gunpoint to Listen to David Barton"

Mike Huckabee made this outrageous statement at the "Rediscover God in America conference, where all the same potential 2012 Republican presidential hopefuls that appeared at the Saturday's Conservative Principles PAC conference told us what they really think -- that America should be governed by biblical law."

Huckabee expressed his admiration for David Barton, by saying that he wished that "all Americans would be forced -- forced at gunpoint no less -- to listen to every David Barton message". Barton is a Christian nationalist pseudo-historian determined to put God into government.

His inflammatory statement was quickly edited out of the video of that speech, but you can view the original at:

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/3/30/155256/894

The 'hard right turn' that we are taking is headed toward theocracy and every one of us, religious or not, should be concerned. The people that can put a god into government, can later tell you that you MUST 'believe'; whose 'scripture' you must obey; and how you must worship that god. It's a perilous road to start down.

Harp--- I didn't mean to give you a coronary! I was afraid that I wouldn't sound convincing enough, and I thought that those who know me best would quickly see through my ruse. My time spent listening to rabbis made me very fond of using analogies to make a point. Again, sorry my friend, the trap wasn't set for YOU, it was meant to start the monkey-spittle flying. At least you had your lunacy radar turned on. that post didn't elicit nearly the amount of outrage that it should have; maybe that's a big part of the problem. (And the answer to your last question is...'because you have no idea what to make of me')

I would love to stick around to debate all of this, but I have appointments to get to.....

Limric...."It may not be a bad thing to have Canarysong allege her incompetence ON you"

You lost me on this one; please explain. Are you trying to get me to starch his shorts too? I only have time to torture one person at a time!

March 31, 2011 at 4:27 p.m.
canarysong said...

L4F,

Been driving long? Look at the drawing and THINK about it.

March 31, 2011 at 4:40 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Limiric,

I enjoy the intelligent conversation. As always I enjoy reading the points made by you, Woody, and Ollie. Just to clarify my post though, I chose the wording of incompetence simply because the Sea Monkey used that word and did not say incompetent. Since incompetence is a noun and considered a "state of being incompetent" I chose to use it in this manner. While it is not the proper context, I simply played off of Sea Monkey's wording so maybe he could better understand. Thanks for the breath of fresh air, and as always keep the intelligent dialect rolling. Back to protecting my den, Tmbrwlfofga.

March 31, 2011 at 5:06 p.m.

Thanks for explaining Limric to me Canarysong. I'm sooo glad your here,my faith in humanity has been restored a bit. Sorry about the face rip Limric, I was wrong. See not all libs/democrats have problems with apologizing. Now i think I'll go have a drink now, you guys are some tough cookies to crack on here, I like it!

March 31, 2011 at 5:35 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Welcome, BlckfemilibNproud! You bring an interesting perspective.

March 31, 2011 at 6:09 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Tmbrwlfofga

The grammatical spanking you administered to the monkey was artful indeed and thoroughly justified. In fairness though, I'll give you this to peruse:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

and this from the comments attached thereto:

I believe "irregardless" should be given more respect. It is sad that so many people feel like the rules of language should be constrained to the rules of math. For them, double negatives must always be unjustified or be equivalent to a positive formulation. However, in Shakespeare's day, nothing could be further from the truth. Double negatives were easily seen as doubly emphatic, not illogical redundancy. And truth be told, that is still understood today. As one author puts it, "I cannot disagree with you," is good English, and is a double negative. Remove the double negative and it becomes, "I agree with you," which changes the meaning of the sentence, as the double negative is more tentative. Similarly, "I am not unhappy," does not mean, "I am happy," and, "I don't dislike him," does not mean, "I like him." Subtlety is everything to those who are willing to hear it, irregardless of those who cannot hear the rhythm in the word, and cannot appreciate its musical irreverence.

March 31, 2011 at 6:51 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

whatsnottaken said... "illegal aliens running across the interstate... being led by those Democrat "coyotes" signing up fraudulent voters."

If you have information on actual or possible illegal acts the correct course of action is to contact CPD or ICE. As a US citizen it is your duty to be vigilant and report these acts. 

I.C.E 1(866) DHS-2ICE CPD.  (423) 425-3580

...or are you just making stuff up?

March 31, 2011 at 6:57 p.m.
woody said...

Hey "Monk", thanks for the 'heads up' on the Preparation H. Since you've been such a big pain in the a$$ it's only right that you should give us a little relief(?) once in a while.

**Aside to everyone else..have a great weekend. It's our 22nd and I think she deserves all my attention. I wish all of you the very best. Woody

March 31, 2011 at 7:07 p.m.
RufusTFirefly said...

tBaggers and GOPhers say Government doesn't work. They then get elected and PROVE it!

http://www.site.stanleyyelnats.com/

March 31, 2011 at 7:12 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Sailorman, great insight on your post. I would like to say however I was not attempting to spank the monkey (I mean this in the most appropriate way). In fact, I could forgive the being for making grammatical errors or even using some phrases inappropriate. I just find it amusing that he calls a former president of the Harvard Law Review and a professor of constitutional law stupid. Moreover, it was even more laughable when he applied the term "incompetence" to someone that neither works for him or with him. Just because I disagree with you does not make you incompetent. I just want the Sea Monkey to use capital letters and spell some things right every now and then. We constantly deal with prejudices against southerners because everyone outside of the South, believes we all think and speak like Sea Monkey writes. I want more of them to see you, Harp, Ollie and Woody's postings before making that judgment. Digressing, Tmbrwlfofga

March 31, 2011 at 7:21 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Congrats, Woody!

March 31, 2011 at 7:22 p.m.
dude_abides said...

najones75,000,000,000,000... If you'll look closer, you'll see that I said "like $90 trillion for each pocket." This is a patently ridiculous statement, given that a Tea Party politician would likely have as many as 9 pockets in their suit. Sorry if I was given, a bit, to hyperbole this morning. I believe the GNP of Great Britain is somewhat less than $3 trillion, so that would be like 30 Great Britains in each pocket, and thus 2700 Great Britains per Tea Party politician mentioned. I must say I might dump my beloved mom in Boston Harbor for that tidy sum. Thanks for keeping me real, but you didn't have much in response to the fact that these pigs were elected on a platform of "rooting out" the kind of crap they're stuffing their 9 pockets with.

March 31, 2011 at 7:50 p.m.
Musicman375 said...

Grats, woody!

March 31, 2011 at 8:28 p.m.

Thanks for the welcome lkeithlu! Everyone seems to be real characters on here, a little touched in the nugget haha but so am I so I'm enjoying it.

March 31, 2011 at 9:46 p.m.
Tmbrwlfofga said...

Welcome BlckFemLibNproud to this forum. You will find we all often disagree, but aside from a couple of misfits, we all do so in a constructive manner. I read these comments everyday before I got involved. I must say, there are often times when someone has a different viewpoint than I do, but they also challenge me to think hard about my views and often allow me a different perspective that I otherwise would not ever be privy to without this forum. Think of it as a bar with Hemmingway, Sallinger & Stephen King. Welcome dear and new friend !

March 31, 2011 at 10:26 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

NOT A WORD

Sorry Sailorman, your link to Webster's pointed out that "irregardless" is nonstandard and 'regardless' should be used instead.

I don't know why that word frosts my grape nuts.

I also get ticked when people interchange the words celebrity (fame), with notoriety (unfavorably known.)

Which brings me to this cartoon and word definitions.

Conservatives, with regard to the federal budget, define themselves as vigilant (alertly watchful). The GOP thinks they're fiscal-conservative celebrities.

A truer definition: republicans gladly bend over backwards (if you know what I mean) to please their rich corporate pimps. Because of their position(s) the notorious GOP will always engineer spectacular budgetary train wrecks.

And that is a nonstandard definition of fiscal discipline.

April 1, 2011 at 12:10 a.m.
fairmon said...

Woody,

Congratulations and best wishes to the wife. Celebrate often.

This could be you in a few years: An old couple go for their annual physical. The old gentleman is embarrassed but has to find out why the first time he makes love with his wife he gets cold, then the second time he is hot and sweaty. The doc says we will discuss that in the follow up review. The Dr. is at a loss so during his exam with the wife he ask her if she was aware of her husband being cold after their first time having sex and hot and sweating the second time. She cleared it up immediately when she said "the old fool, It's because the first time was in February and the second in August".

April 1, 2011 at 1:57 a.m.
moonpie said...

A few cartoons ago (Newt) someone mentioned that Clay only drew "flying cars".

Don't know why that stuck in my head.

April 1, 2011 at 6:25 a.m.
Sailorman said...

blackwater

Sorry but you seem to be having comprehension problems. I wasn't defending the use of "irregardless". Go back and read it again - or not - I don't care either way.

As for the rest of the drivel - well, that pretty much describes it. Maybe that's your idea of an April Fool's stunt?

April 1, 2011 at 7 a.m.
delmar said...

Wow! Thanks Woody, for helping me remember I have one coming up, I owe you one. And Happy Anniversary!

BlckFemiLibNproud - hottest avatar ever!! Oh crap,, did I just say that out-loud?

April 1, 2011 at 7:16 a.m.
najones75 said...

Do you have a source, dude?

Here's an article from ABC (left biased, if anything) talking about the point that you're trying to hammer home.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tea-party-hypocrisy-lawmakers-tea-party-ties-government/story?id=13259014&page=2

"In 2009 alone, government farm subsidies totaled more than $16 billion. They totaled almost a quarter of a trillion dollars over the last 15 years."

That's 1/4 of a trillion over 15 years...hardly the $90 trillion (in how many years???) that is stated as going into tea party pockets...or as you so comically related, 30 Great Britians??

I don't know enough about the subject to argue on whether the dynamics of the topic are right or wrong. That would be for another day. I'm sure there's more here than meets the eye. I just would like the facts to be used when making a point.

Good day.

April 1, 2011 at 7:33 a.m.

Harp

I believe the reason you get no response about taxes is you are the only one I know who wants to pay more taxes for all benefits. Or are you being facecious. I do not believe you when you say we dont have a spending problem. That is the problem imo.

April 1, 2011 at 7:37 a.m.
fairmon said...

No one really jumped on board for my contrarian approach of keep every one's favorite program and pay as we spend. It appears selfishness and greed still drives us and we will again flock to promises of prosperity like lemmings.

Would you support a simple tax system that enabled everyone to file their taxes on a post card? Abolish all exceptions with no deductions, reductions, long term gains, short term gains, tax exempt bonds, hedge fund managers at 15% max, personal exemptions, dependent exemptions, earned income credit, etc. etc. Develop and index rates with zero below the poverty level with increasing rates above the poverty line as income increases up to a maximum of 55% of all over one million. Adjust rates annually per CPI of food, clothing, shelter, health care, energy and to cover all government spending.

File taxes:

Income= (calculate taxes per the rate at that income level)

Tax owed=

Taxes paid=

Net due=

Why are the rates lower for married people when two supposedly can live cheaper than one? Why is there a category for filing jointly, head of household and other favoring y category? Why do those opting for no children pay more to help those with children raise their kids? (dependent reductions) Why do those renting or paying cash for their house support and help those financing a house pay for it? (interest deductions) Why do those not needing a new H&V unit, added insulation, energy efficient windows etc. or can't afford these things subsidize those then buy them? Why do those that can't have a tax exempt health care savings account subsidize those that can? Why do we subsidize farmers to not grow some crops and increase exports on others with no help to consumers?

Just a few examples or how congress has legislated to show favor and manipulate to the point that over 11,000 pages of IRS regulations are necessary? The current tax system is a "we know what is best for the larger voting block". ponzi scheme of major proportions.

Business taxes:

Abolish all exceptions and deductions, subsidies, incentives, grants etc. and require a flat 20% on all profits. Allow the immediate recording of all capital investments in the U.S. without having to amortize for several years with resulting no profit losses due to capital investments carried forward.

please tell me what is wrong with this totally transparent concept and why should we not pay as we spend?

April 1, 2011 at 8:30 a.m.
fairmon said...

BrainerdRebels67,

Actually I am serious. No one is willing to give up their pet program and find it easy to support all the welfare and other spending including bombs and wars as long as the money to pay for them is being borrowed and printed and the pain is minimal. No member of congress will ever be willing to make the difficult decisions as long as voters, special interest groups and lobbyist insist on maintaining their programs. Just check out all the heck raised over public radio broadcasting (PBR) a subsidy that was implemented years ago, I think during one of the wars, before the Internet, cell phones, multiple TV outlets and radio stations were available.

Some few astute members of congress have an idea of what is going to happen but far fewer than we would like to think. I am sure most voters have no concept of what it will mean if the dollar is no longer the worlds reserve currency or if those we are in debt to ever "perceive" we may default. We don't have to actually default to suffer the consequences, check Greece out they haven't yet defaulted but are being destroyed and forced to make tough choices, people are rioting etc.

I think once the cost was evident in the tax rates voters may be less prone to insist on spending for every whim and really pay attention to central government inefficiencies.

April 1, 2011 at 8:49 a.m.

Thanks delmar:)...are you going to be getting an avatar soon? Harp3339 I have to say that your particular bit about "Why do those opting for no children pay more to help those with children raise their kids? " did strike a cord with me. I'm 23, in college, live completely on my own paying my own rent,cable,electric,etc and I don't have any children yet I see A LOT of people my age or younger with children and they get all sorts of government discounts which really makes me mad. Not that I want any sort of hand out but its just the princple of things, BUT then I try to remember that life simply isn't fair and maybe I'll need help one day and I'm glad to know I have a government that could help me out if I could no longer work or my finances were bad.

As far as your other suggestions go, I'll be honest and say that I don't know anything about tax exempt bonds or hedge fund managers so I'll reasearch and get back at you.

April 1, 2011 at 8:50 a.m.

Harp

You want to pay as you go/spend. Then abolish all income taxes and go to a tax on everything you buy. Say a sales tax of 20% on all items bought going to the federal government and no income taxes.

April 1, 2011 at 8:51 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

REGARDLESS

Sorry (again) Sailorman. I DID read over the post and I was mislead - you may not have implied it but I certainly inferred it - over the entire post.

You quoted: "Subtlety is everything to those who are willing to hear it, irregardless of those who cannot hear the rhythm in the word, and cannot appreciate its musical irreverence."

And you concluded with, "I believe "irregardless" should be given more respect. It is sad that so many people feel like the rules of language should be constrained to the rules of math. For them, double negatives must always be unjustified or be equivalent to a positive formulation."

As for the rest of my post, you think tea baggers should be taken seriously? Seriously? They're just pulling another political stunt in the House with their goofy spending cuts.

They have no problem defunding cancer research and education and PBS but they scream like little school girls when you ask them to eliminate the $5 billion us taxpayers gift oil companies ever year for no discernible reason. (to cite but one example) I think oil companies can scrape by without it.

If tea baggers were serious they would demand budget cuts across the board. You want to eliminate Planned Parenthood, then cut the same amount from the Pentagon. You want NPR off the air, close corporate loopholes that enabled General Electric to get $3.2 billion back from the IRS last year. (to cite but one example)

But they're not serious at all. Republicans are traditionally more interested in politics than policy, and starting with Reagan, the federal deficit has soared under GOP leadership. They're slogans look great on bumper stickers but don't translate well in Washington.

They make the same mistakes over and over again and always expect a different results.

That's nuts.

April 1, 2011 at 8:54 a.m.

You all seen the comercial where the Chinese are giving a speech to the effect that we have sold out to them and we work for them? Heh, it's true and will bite us in the ass before you know it.

April 1, 2011 at 8:56 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Get a life blackwater. Subtleties and tongue-in-cheek are obviously foreign to you. Here's another definition you.

"Blackwater is a term dating to at least the 1970s used to describe wastewater containing fecal matter and urine. It is also known as brown water, foul water, or sewage"

April 1, 2011 at 9:07 a.m.

They make the same mistakes over and over again and always expect a different results.

That's nuts.

Blackwater48 This is acually called insanity.

April 1, 2011 at 9:10 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

DEFINITIONS

That was actually pretty funny, SM. The actual inspiration was more idyllic. I see you avoided the rest of my post which dealt with tea bagger Hypocrisy. Congratulations on reverting to name calling when you have no argument.

Brainerdrebels67 - Thank you for the distinction without a difference. Yes, I do know the quote. Everybody knows the quote.

April 1, 2011 at 9:58 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

This is a question for harp re: corporate tax I heard on the radio this morning-unfortunately I did not catch who the speaker was-that yes, our corporate tax rate is the highest but that we actually collect far less because of loopholes in the law. I would like your take on this statement, because they did not give examples and it does not explain the exodus of corporations to other countries. (sorry-I have a VERY short commute!)

April 1, 2011 at 10 a.m.
Sailorman said...

blackwater

I didn't ignore the last part of your post. It was what inspired the referenced definition. If you elect to define it as name-calling, go for it.

I have to laugh when I see things like "tea bagger Hypocrisy". Ahh the arrogance is truly spectacular.

April 1, 2011 at 11:01 a.m.
Sailorman said...

Harp

I agree with you nearly 100%. We should pay as we go and I would have no problem with increased taxes to do so. Unfortunately, I have little faith Washington would be anymore responsible with additional revenue than they have been in the past.

April 1, 2011 at 11:02 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

Sailorman wrote, "I have to laugh when I see things like "tea bagger Hypocrisy". Ahh the arrogance is truly spectacular."

Your ignorance is equally so.

April 1, 2011 at 11:10 a.m.

Sorry blackwater

But you are very arrogant. I just was carring on conversation about insane and you say you know the quote/everyone knows it. It's no wonder you have no/little friends here.

April 1, 2011 at 11:30 a.m.
Sailorman said...

blackwater

I have to apologize. My use of "arrogance" was inappropriate. "Hubris" is far more fitting.

You have a lovely day.

April 1, 2011 at 11:56 a.m.
potcat said...

Clay dosent have to go to a school in California for material on the Republican Religious Numb Nuts crowd. On the front page of yesterdays papper... Watson: Bill not an attack on evolution. .Nashville- Sen.Bo Watson said Wednesday his bill letting teachers discuss "weaknesses" in "controversial" scientific theories in the classroom is not an attack on evolution, but critics denounce as a backdoor effort to under-cut teaching of it in Tennessee public schools. Its not an evolution bill. That's a red herring.It germinates an emotional response that(critics) want," said Watson, R- Hixson, a day after former House Speaker Jimmy Naifeh,D-Covington, derisively referred to the measure in a house panel as the "monkey bill."

April 1, 2011 at 1:04 p.m.
fairmon said...

br67,

My tax concept was to adjust the current tax tables with the top rate at 55-60% and the lower rate at under $20,000 or so at zero. Zero adjustments to what one pays with no distinctions per filer such as single, married, hohh, etc. All deductions including rug rats, house buying and on and other tools of political manipulation are history. The rates need to be adequate to pay for all those feel good programs people like and demand plus the war hawks blowing up multi-million bombs and those advocating we save the world, free the people, feed them and require them to be like us.

Instead of 11,000 pages of IRS regs the government would need to issue an accurate per program cost and the cost to administer it. I have no doubt if people had that information their priorities and demands would change. It is just too easy to parrot the parties line without a real appreciation of the growing debt and the terrible inefficiencies in a rapidly expanding government.

SB-25 is a "fair tax" proposal now in senate committee that abolishes the current system and places a consumer tax of 23% Each dollar would include 23 cents for federal taxes) on each retail purchase without exception. That would be the fairest tax system in the world and no one presently has such. It is not an AV tax like Europe has. Two reasons it will never get out of committee for a vote. The wealthy would scream to high heaven since they make some big time purchases such as luxury cars, million dollar plus houses, yachts etc., this includes influential media people even those at supposedly conservative FOX. Long time politicians don't like it because if they try to manipulate it everyone will know it. The second reason is too many people are not able to grasp and understand it therefore are afraid of it.

The more you spend the more you pay. Everyone, including the wealthy, gets a quarterly refund which benefits and lowers the rate for the middle and lower income people with less benefit for the higher income. Those working for cash, those with illegal gains or any other means of avoiding paying their fair share would pay their share if they make a retail purchase.

April 1, 2011 at 1:04 p.m.

You say the wealthy would not go for it, hey we are the majority and we can do what we want to change the laws, right?

April 1, 2011 at 1:14 p.m.

harp

you have 100 of the luptons, davenports, pattons, etc., and 106000 of the rest of us. Why can't we get what the majority wants?

April 1, 2011 at 1:18 p.m.
fairmon said...

BlkFemLib,

I understand certainly don't suggest those that are unable to provide for themselves not receive all necessary assistance. In fact just the opposite. To me it is inhumane the way we treat the elderly and others with low incomes that are disabled and ill.

All the deduction and reductions are not appropriate. You cannot give something to one person without taking something from another. You and I are both single and we pay more so those opting to marry and proliferate or not marry and proliferate can pay less. We either rent or own a home, I paid cash for mine, but we pay more so those that opt to buy a house on credit can deduct the interest and pay less Is that not the politicians supporting their favored financial sector? We pay more so those qualifying can get an earned income refund instead of calling it charity which it is.

By all means we should assist those either locally or federally seeking an education or a critical job skill which is the key to our future. Local is more efficient but many people think a powerful "do all for all" centralized government is essential. I can go for that if we all pay for it as we spend it and not pass the cost of our excesses on to future generations.

April 1, 2011 at 1:24 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

HUBRIS?

One definition: "Overbearing pride or presumption."

You presume something that differs from my opinion but who knows what it is? Are you too prideful?

I offer my opinions and cite examples to make my points.

I don't 'write down' to anyone.

I don't engage in name calling when I have no argument.

I didn't see anyone question my assertion that tea baggers are hypocrites.

I didn't see anyone question my examples.

You dislike my opinions? I welcome your hatred.

Is that all you got?

April 1, 2011 at 1:29 p.m.
fairmon said...

Sailorman,

You are correct, they would not improve their stewardship of tax dollars unless the heat got really hot. Once people realized the real cost instead of borrowing and blaming each other I am confident they would feel the heat from many sources. The principle is If I don't like your program I only need to agree to give something I value up to justify reducing yours.

April 1, 2011 at 1:37 p.m.
fairmon said...

br67,

Good question, If enough people supported HR-25 it could pass but there simply aren't enough people that understand or willing to take to understand it then contact their member of congress urging them to support it.

Corker's response was if it comes out of committee to the floor for a vote I will get more familiar with it. He then added I have a hard time understanding how we could transition to that system. Which means he doesn't know how to handle all those people that are favored by the current system.

April 1, 2011 at 2 p.m.

most people do not undestand the tax gift to feds. If people would research and understand the tax bifuxen then we would not have this conundrum. Those words come from monkey. Sorry.

April 1, 2011 at 2:10 p.m.
fairmon said...

Lkeithlu,

The newscast you heard is probably accurate. There are many corporations that pay zero or very little taxes while others pay the 35%. The average collected is much less than the published 35% rate. GE is a good example with their huge financial arm along with most big banks, brokers and insurance companies that have significant "loop holes" provided by congress. I would like to see congress simplify the corporate tax system by abolishing all loop holes and potential loop holes and require them to pay 15-20% tax on earnings. Those now favored would not like it but many of those that manufacture things in the U.S. would welcome it.

April 1, 2011 at 2:20 p.m.
fairmon said...

BW48

Hypocrisy, hypocritical, two faced describes the teabaggers and every politician in D.C.. I don't like them but why did you put that label only on the tea group? I think our Fleischmann(sp) is still trying to find his office and a key to the men's room. I would really like to see both parties squirm and squeal if they were required to abolish all their tools of manipulation and spend no more than they were willing to tax us for. If we insist on so much it takes 100% of every one's income so be it, we will then all, including the wealthy, be wards of the state which appears to be what many prefer. Their bragging about the cuts proposed is like a morbidly obese person celebrating the loss of a half pound with Twinkies as their reward.

April 1, 2011 at 2:48 p.m.

harp3339

I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I was agreeing with you, not disagreeing.

April 1, 2011 at 2:50 p.m.
fairmon said...

BlckFemLib,

:)* wish I was younger. Your maturity fooled me regarding age. Of course we all like people that agree with us. We don't say it but when ask how we want people to act the honest answer is "just like me".

April 1, 2011 at 3:03 p.m.

Thanks harp3339, I try my hardest not to act my age whenever possible. Love how you shortened the name too, if anyone wants you can just call me by "BFLNP" and I'll still respond, I know it's all a mouth full :)

April 1, 2011 at 3:18 p.m.
fairmon said...

BFLNP,

Nothing wrong with acting your age. Some of my friends call me the world's oldest teenager because I have fun and cut up a little. I read a lot and probably over analyze things. When you watch some one examine something notice how they usually turn it upside down or try to see under it. Why not the financial and tax systems as I proposed we do? Instead of fighting over cuts list everything from A to Z add up the spend already occurring and tax us accordingly. Any increase in spending increases taxes.

April 1, 2011 at 4:17 p.m.
limric said...

harp3339, Are you sincerely advocating the 'Fair Tax"? I will have to respectfully disagree. There a quite a number of reasons why, of which I can't explain at the moment but will illustrate later.

Cheerio

April 1, 2011 at 4:25 p.m.

This is going to be interesting, can't wait Limric. I heard an excellent song on the radio on my way home, it fits perfectly for all of us. Sara Bareilles's "King of Anything"

http://youtu.be/eR7-AUmiNcA

April 1, 2011 at 5:57 p.m.
dude_abides said...

najones75... http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/263498/tea-partiers-accept-farm-subsidies-katrina-trinko The numbers I threw around were a purposefully gross exaggeration. A little brevity to leaven the moment. See what you make of that link.

April 1, 2011 at 6:03 p.m.
canarysong said...

BFLNP;

I LOVE that song! I feel empowered every time I hear it.

April 1, 2011 at 6:33 p.m.
fairmon said...

Limric,

Please do that pointing out why the current scheme is better. Actually I prefer the concept I described using the escalating tax tables with nothing considered other than income and taxes on that amount. However, I have read and read again the "fair tax" as described on the fairtax.com web site and see nothing wrong with it that wouldn't be better than the current ponzi scheme. Perhaps you can point out what I am missing. My concern is it may not be recognizable when our brilliant legislatures got through with it.

April 1, 2011 at 7:20 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

Don't be listening to that empowering song you are already a take charge and listen to me type-A personality. You would probably grade out as a driver-driver on a Myers Brigs test. Gin-n-ee listening to that song may inspire you to shake us all and put us in time out if we didn't listen well.

April 1, 2011 at 7:29 p.m.
Rufus_T_Firefly said...

Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lēodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free

Liberal means FREE! (look it up)

April 1, 2011 at 9:08 p.m.
fairmon said...

No wonder they flipped the car. Enough people rocking back and forth in a car will flip it over and attempting a hard turn either way and the car is upside down.

Listening to some politicians is like hearing a person say "that vacuum cleaner really sucks". Is it a good or bad vacuum cleaner?

Or some will say we must be prepared fot the unexpected. That must mean we know what to prepare for so why is it still called the unexpected? If we don't know what the unexpected is how do they know what to prepare for? A Czar, a committee and a staff and funding are essential for sure.

Ask a congressman why if I have only one it is called a TV set but if I have two it is a set of TVs, that would be good for a 30 minute speech without saying anything about a TV.

Some politicians, IE. Barney Franks, get confused by the terms over sight and over look. His over sight of Fannie May and Freddie Mac was over looked.

April 1, 2011 at 9:08 p.m.
limric said...

Harp3339, Sorry I can't get into this as quickly as I would have liked in a short period of time. This is a subject I've researched - hemmed and hawed about for a number of years. Compiling a dissertation based on facts, opinions andor conjecture is taking me longer than anticipated. Plus there is a good possibility it may be ever so boring. Not something people wish to read on a political cartoon blog post. I promise to hammer away at this tonight...until my wife tells me to "turnout the light." Or until BlckFemiLibNproud finishes washing my shirts. And no, you cannot use canarysong's can of starch.

April 1, 2011 at 9:45 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Newt Gettingrich On The Devil's Payroll! -Holds wet tea party shirt contest. -Thinks of becoming Mormon, so as to perform world's 1st triple divorce. -Embraces "hate 'em all & let Huckabee sort 'em out" agenda. -Begins nationwide "Thongs & Bongs" tour. -Redefines penile implant.
-Declares gambling "National Duty".

April 1, 2011 at 10:05 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp,

You have read me pretty well; what I lack in size, I make up for in attitude! I would never have even considered shaking my kids and putting them in 'time out', but a few people here could use a good shaking.

I'm happy to see that you have forgiven me for my little 'Buddhism at gunpoint' farce yesterday. While writing, I could hardly contain my giggles as I followed "peace, compassion, and love for humanity" with "should be forced at gunpoint". I was very surprised that you were the only person to get riled up over it. Basically, the whole thing seemed to go over like a lead balloon, but at least I managed to entertain myself!

The story that I was trying to bring to everyone's attention, though, is a bit disturbing. This guy is one of the republican front runners, jeeesh!

Here is another place to read about it:

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/03/31/mike-huckabee-david-barton/

April 1, 2011 at 10:08 p.m.

Looks like Huckabee’s career is over. Not a supporter, but to be fair, it was pretty obvious that he was kidding – a facetious allusion to the caricature of him by his critics.

If you didn’t hear the laughter in the audience or notice that his tongue was in his cheek, it’s probably because you were loaded for bear when you watched his remarks. It just goes to prove that putative liberals can be every bit as literalistic and humorless as the most benighted fundie. “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”


Rufus_T_Firefly said... “Liberal means FREE! (look it up)”

Your research confirms my contention that the “liberal” label as it is the commonly used is a misnomer. How can the nation’s addiction to government intervention in the economy be called “free?”


Harp, I think you have a fear of prioritizing and making commitments. It sounds like you are saying “Give everyone what they want (and it's perfectly reasonable to funnel it through the government). Just be sure to send them the bill.” What makes you think a spendthrift nation of debtors (personal and societal) is interested in paying its bills? It’s not just the politicians. WE are what’s wrong with the world.


(Watch out Canarysong. Fear of commitment is not a good sign in a budding relationship.)

April 1, 2011 at 11:30 p.m.

The ominous music at the end of the video was the perfect icing on the cake of liberal apocalyptic paranoia.

(Crossing my fingers for a cartoon with more substance tomorrow.)

April 1, 2011 at 11:37 p.m.
canarysong said...

wwwtw;

"...it was pretty obvious that he was kidding..."

"It just goes to prove that putative liberals can be every bit as literalistic and humorless as the most benighted fundie."

--- If he had not been kidding, then I would have made a MUCH bigger deal about it than I did! However, for someone vying for the country's highest office a 'joke' like this is grossly inappropriate, at best. Would the religious right find it humorous if a Muslim running for president were to say (to other Muslims at a conference on Islam) that he wished that 'all Americans would be forced at gunpoint to listen to the teachings of Mohammed'? .... Please!

Or how about this: what if an atheist candidate made a 'joke' that all religious Americans should be 'deprogramed at gunpoint'? Funny? Not so much. It would be the lead story on every newscast and Fox 'talent' would be apoplectic.

"(Watch out Canarysong. Fear of commitment is not a good sign in a budding relationship.)"

--- I was getting ready to rip into you for this, but sometimes you show a very sly sense of humor, so I'm choosing to assume that you meant this as a joke. Ha...ha.....ha........

April 2, 2011 at 1:36 a.m.
fairmon said...

wwwthw,

Yes we are the problem and nothing will change until forced to pay the bills. It has to become no credit cards or teller machine with what we think is free money. I have no fear of priortizing and making commitments but I am not running for office and trying to please everyone. If the decision making and priority setting were mine some people would be very unhappy. State and local governments would step up or step out. We have become like little lord Fauntleroy with mega wealthy parents. We think we have a right to the finer things in life without a thought about the cost.

I think liberated means free. Liberal means tolerant and giving. Unfortunately in politics it means willing to give more of yours than theirs in order to spread the poverty. Fiscal conservatives can be very liberal regarding social behavior.

April 2, 2011 at 1:44 a.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

The Buddha comment didn't rile me up I just couldn't make the connection regarding the debt and spending issues. I started to say I will read his works when he loses weight. Huckabee needs to not give up his non prime time fill in TV show and continue his guitar playing and bad singing. I wouldn't care if Obama returned to Illinois, became governor and later joined the others in jail. Palen needs to stay in Alaska more so she can keep an eye on Russia for us from her house. People think Newt is campaigning and feeling the pulse, we should realize he is looking for number 4.

April 2, 2011 at 2:01 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I've always thought Huckabee was a bit nuts but Barton is down right scary. This is a 1996 summary of his works; I am trying to find more recent info.

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/9606/barton.html

harp, thanks for your explanation!

April 2, 2011 at 7:19 a.m.
limric said...

Harp339,

I hear you loud and clear. The income tax is as it is now is unAmerican in the most profound ways. The tax code is incomprehensible. The IRS is universally loathed. Unfortunately, what comes next begins, “And replace it with” And here’s where the trouble begins.

The FairTax is not an improvement. I believe it's UnFair, dangerous, and a disaster in the making. You think nothing could be worse than the graduated income tax? I can guarantee you that, after five years of the FairTax, you'd be looking back with nostalgia on the days when Americans had to put up only with the IRS and the income tax. Below are some of the reasons I firmly believe the FairTax would be a disaster for our economic well-being. Some of these “unintended consequences” of the national sales tax are verifiable facts or certainties (conjecture?) based on historical experience. Others are projections, based on my knowledge of history, the devious ways and means of government, and on trends now developing.

We're likely to end up with both a national sales tax and an income tax.

Likelihood: High probability.

The rate of a national sales tax would be colossal.

Likelihood of the tax actually being more than 23 percent: Certainty.

Inflation will kill you. Likelihood of inflation boosting the sales tax: Certainty.

The FairTax is monumentally unfair to retiring Baby Boomers. Likelihood: Certainty

Here comes the part where you’ll think I’m a kook.

The tax will be used to track your entire financial life.

Likelihood: High probability (of tracking); possibility (of custom tax rates for individuals).

The national sales tax is subject to manipulation in even more direct ways than the income tax has been. Likelihood: Probable.

A national sales tax will create a huge black market.

Likelihood: Certainty (of black markets); high probability (of regulating used and private sales)

The national sales tax will give government a reason to make cash purchases illegal. Likelihood: High probability

This tax is designed to put every single American household on welfare.

Likelihood: Fact; it's built into SB. 25.

Some religious people will be penalized.

The economy would very likely collapse. Likelihood: Probable.

You'll pay a higher sum for your new home.

Likelihood: Probable

I agree with the new Fairness in Taxation Act proposed by Rep. Jan Schakowsky. This enacts new tax brackets for income starting at $1 million and ends with a $1 billion bracket. The new brackets would be: • $1-10 million: 45% • $10-20 million: 46% • $20-100 million: 47% • $100 million to $1 billion: 48% • $1 billion and over: 49% The bill would also tax capital gains and dividend income as ordinary income for those taxpayers with income over $1 million.
I think hers is a fair proposal. The Fair Tax on the other hand is in every way a Trojan Horse.

April 2, 2011 at 11:21 a.m.
Sailorman said...

blackwater

"I welcome your hatred."

I have to congratulate you. In the 2 years or so I've been on this board, that may be the most ridiculous comment I've seen yet even in the face of rather stiff competition. It's also a classic example of hubris. To think for a minute that I would waste time with an emotion so useless as hate (I reserve that for arugula) on you is the very height of it. I have no hate for you at all - only sympathy.

"Is that all you got?"

Not by a long shot but you've wasted enough of my time.

April 2, 2011 at 11:23 a.m.

limric

your post is bs and an opinion. there is no fact to something that has not happened yet.

April 2, 2011 at 11:26 a.m.
limric said...

My original Fair Tax rebuttal post had over 15000 characters. I found I was only allowed 3000. Serious editing ensued, bringing on much delay. I do have lengthy and logical explanations for each of my bold assertions. However, I'm only allowed so much bloviating space...which is probably better for everyone anyway.

April 2, 2011 at 11:30 a.m.
Sailorman said...

limric

Very well done. I would change the first one to 100% certainty though.

The Fairness in Taxation Act is good discussion starting point but I don't know that Harp isn't correct in thinking that until everyone feels the pain there won't be any substantial change. I simply can't shake the notion that no matter how much money Washington has available to it, they will always spend more. Fiscal sanity doesn't seem to be in the cards. I hope I'm wrong.

April 2, 2011 at 11:31 a.m.
limric said...

Sailorman,

Quote: "I don't know that Harp isn't correct in thinking that until everyone feels the pain there won't be any substantial change. Your point is well taken, as is Harp339's and I partially agree. Let's all not forget that at this time, in 2011, with the exception of the very wealthy, we are feeling the pain."

The newest fun term "Shared sacrifice" is a spin boldly bandied about by those that don't share. And frankly I'm sick of it.

April 2, 2011 at 12:30 p.m.
canarysong said...

Limric and Harp,

Great posts, guys!

I'm sure that there must be other people like me who may be good at some things, but find themselves at a complete loss when it comes to all things involving math. I have bought several books on economics which were bought with the best of intentions but now occupy my shelf untouched, much like the vitamins I have that are too large to swallow.

Thank you both for putting time into helping those of us who are mathematical cripples to make more sense out of the important decisions that we are going to have to make. A belated thank you as well to the others who have posted similarly thoughtful comments in the past; they do help. Ignorance rarely is bliss for very long!

Limric,

"The newest fun term "Shared sacrifice" is a spin boldly bandied about by those that don't share. And frankly I'm sick of it."

--- We,re all sick of it, Limric. Like you say, the revolution will be televised (or at least tweeted).

April 2, 2011 at 12:44 p.m.
fairmon said...

Limric, Good post, thanks for taking the time although I don't agree with all assumptions regarding the Fair tax concept. Keep in mind my preference is a tax table or index that increases earlier and more aggressively than rep. Schakowsky to a top rate of around 55%. And, a no deduction, reductions or other tools of avoidance business tax rate of up to 20% on profits. 15% would probably be more stimulating for the economy but political suicide which not one in either party is willing to risk. The personal income tables need to be set at rates that generate sufficient annual revenue to pay for every whim and inefficiency we demand of the federal government.

I am hesitant to trust congress to pass the proposed fair tax as conceived. It has already been altered from the original concept. A few points regarding such:

o 1st every current tax has to first be abolished.

o I agree the rate likely needs to be higher with the current spending rate and proposed rate the consumer rate may need to be closer to 30%. The embedded cost in every purchase we make will reduce the cost of goods and services at least 22%. Compare the net cost of 8% to your current income tax percent.

o Inflation increases government revenue just like bracket creep does now.

o I don't understand the tracking being greater since there is no individual tax filing or purchase record.

o 100% on welfare if the rebate to every legal citizen is considered such it is welfare just like earned income credit now.

o Religious penalty? So what? No deductions for church donations and the reverend not getting special consideration doesn't bother me. I think they may be the worst abusers with their cathedral building and business ventures including owning rental property.

o Economy collapse is no greater than the current path we are on. I hate to sound so pessimistic but I can see an implosion within the next 12 months.

o New home price affect not as much as one might think since building materials will be less expensive, the builder won't have as much employee expense.

o There is a role for the IRS and that is to be aggressive and deal harshly with black market activities.

o The major benefit of a consumer tax is the capture of revenue from those with illegal gains, unreported income and tax evasion.

Have you seen the calculation of the cost of a new automobile if all the legislatively imposed cost in fees, license, inspections, taxes, etc. were not included in the cost. Keep in mind the same legislatively imposed cost the assembler and retailer pays are included in the cost of parts purchased from others in the U.S. by the assembler. It adds cost to those transporting those materials that also pay all those imposed cost. The ponzi scheme affect.

The sad thing is so many in congress have no clue or are not willing to accept the reason for the debt problems and the exodus of decent American jobs.

April 2, 2011 at 1:58 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

Are you about to announce you are candidate for office. The compliment instead of a kick in the rear left me speechless but only short term of course. Anyway, thank you and you get my vote, I have regretted many votes in the past so I quit worrying about what I may think later. :)

April 2, 2011 at 2:04 p.m.
Sailorman said...

"shared sacrifice" is political code for BOHICA.

I suspect harp and limric would do a far better job determining tax policy than those who have created and enlarge the mess we all suffer under. The revolution canarysong mentions may be what it takes to stop the bureaucratic steamroller. I pray not.

April 2, 2011 at 5:44 p.m.
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