published Thursday, May 5th, 2011

Change

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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blackwater48 said...

YES WE DID

Before the wing nuts show up and cry, wail, spray the screen, stomp their feet &c., &c., yes, there IS a new sheriff in town.

I've heard the conservatives crow about how it was the information President Shrub obtained through water boarding suspects five years ago that led to Bin Laden's demise and "tainted" Obama's victory.

First of all, it's a victory for all of us.

Second, the water boarding baloney has been shot down by pols on both sides of the aisle.

Third, even if the water boarding lie were true, and the information obtained therein were golden, why couldn't Shrub find Bin Laden?

May 5, 2011 at 12:14 a.m.
OllieH said...

Correct on all points, Blackwater. You know, watching the wingnuts scurrying about trying to diminish (or completely negate) President Obama's part in this flawless military operation might be amusing, if it weren't so pathetic.

May 5, 2011 at 12:25 a.m.
hachero said...

First, Clay rocks. This is great!

Second, BW48, you are quite right.

Third, I'm sure the wingnuts will show up, but don't pay them any mind. Republicanism has become less of an ideology and more of a personality disorder.

May 5, 2011 at 12:28 a.m.

BW48 Shrub didn't find Bin Laden because he was looking in Iraq. Remember Bush went after Hussain no Laden.

May 5, 2011 at 12:36 a.m.
canarysong said...

Another great one, Clay.

hachero,

"Republicanism has become less of an ideology and more of a personality disorder."

--- This is bound to be my favorite line of the day!

May 5, 2011 at 12:41 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

is this guy for real? bennett you sicken me......

i can't believe how overt you leftist morons are in your attempt to make obama an american hero.

desperate....absolutely desperate....

obama says ok to a well crafted plan by our military and our intel,.. the very same intel and military he's spent his whole life ridiculing and trying to destroy,..and he gets all the credit?

"a new sheriff".....is that a pencil in your pocket or are you just happy to see another bennett cartoon, blackwater?

what a piece of propaganda and an insult to all the men and women who died and put their lives in danger to get this guy.

that's right blackwater, it's a victory for america....now tell that to obama.

"obama's victory"....what a ***kisser

guess you know more than leon paneta, huh....dumb ass...penata said it was one of the things that led to this...waterboarding, that is.

it is a victory for all of us...***wipe...it's a victory for america, a decade in the making...by many, many people and much sacrifice........obama benefited from all the things that you libs and obama ridiculed the entire time bush was in office.

you libs are not looking very good right now......obama gives his i/me/my speech and you act as if obama's douglass mc arthur and ulysses grant rolled into one. you're coming across like it's a victory for you...even though you say it's a victory for all of us.....you're not looking good.....you overreach..like you always do

the fight against terror has a long way to go.......1 in 7 people in this country are on food stamps, the unemployment rate is 10%, according to gallup, underemployment is rampant, gas will average $4.00 a gallon, 25% of those between 16 and 20 are unemployed.....the cost of food is rising..

get real....

this cartoon by bennett seals the deal with me.......he's a pure ***kissing propagandist who puts his party over his country.

the same can be said about you gloating libs right now......you're happy for your party and obama. whatever it takes to get the poll numbers up, even if it means obama has to stoop so low as to utilize the evil tactics bush/cheney put into place.

May 5, 2011 at 12:44 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

"obama's victory"........-blackwater...

nothing more needs to be said.

one nation..under obama, huh?

pitiful leftist terd

May 5, 2011 at 1:15 a.m.
OllieH said...

SeaMonkey said... "Blah, blah, blah, blah, Bennett makes me sick, blah, blah, blah blah, Bennett stinks, blah, blah blah, blah!"

Give it up, Frances. You may go by a new name, but you're still making the same old lame points- Over and over and over again.

May 5, 2011 at 1:21 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

THANK YOU, SEAMONKEY

You're right on time and out of your mind.

First, you seem to think torture is a highly effective interrogation procedure. I assure you it is not. If it were so helpful, why was it discontinued by Israel? Heck, why was it discontinued by US? Actually, Obama built upon and expanded the intelligence gathering network Shrub initiated in 2005, but it involved neither boards nor water nor any other torture apparatus.

Here's some information I know will boil your "brain" but I'm presenting it for the other readers.

From the NYTimes

"Operation Cannonball, a [2005] bureaucratic reshuffling ... placed more C.I.A. case officers on the ground in Pakistan and Afghanistan. With more agents in the field, the C.I.A. finally got the courier’s family name. With that, they turned to one of their greatest investigative tools — the National Security Agency began intercepting telephone calls and e-mail messages between the man’s family and anyone inside Pakistan. From there they got his full name. Last July, Pakistani agents working for the C.I.A. spotted him driving his vehicle near Peshawar."

Sorry real life doesn't fit into your agenda driven narrative AGAIN, and stop your whining about Obama's ego over killing Bin Laden. Good grief, Shrub donned a flight suit and had an air craft carrier redirected so he could make his triumphant landing and announce he won the Iraq War and avenged the attacks of 9/11.

Except for a few minor details - like the thousands of soldiers who were killed, their grieving families, and the trillion dollars we borrowed from China to pay for it - the history of the Iraq War reads like a farce. A sad, misguided and mismanaged military campaign without a clear plan of attack, operational parameter once hostilities ceased, nor an exit strategy.

No, I was right the first time. There IS a new sheriff in town.

May 5, 2011 at 1:38 a.m.
nucanuck said...

Osama bin Laden had a plan of attack to harm the USA and underwhelm the mighty American military machine. His plan was a simple one, an economic plan still unfolding.

By unleashing low tech, high visibility attacks worldwide against soft American targets, bin Laden was able to suck the US into two wars and a massive military and security build-up, a build-up that would cost trillions of dollars, dollars taken away from constructive investment and thereby weakening the country to the point of decline and economic collapse.

The assasination of Osama bin Laden is a victory of sorts, but maybe more Pyrric than real. The unfunded military spending binge unleashed after 9/11 continues unabated. bin Laden may not be alive to see the US vanquished economically, but he set off a movement in the Middle East that is changing the face of that part of the world while the US buries itself in debt.

Did Osama bin Laden lose his life, but win the war? Ten years from now will the nations of the Middle East have popularly elected leaders? Will the US dollar have fallen and the US economy with it? Hmmm.

May 5, 2011 at 1:38 a.m.

blackwater48 said...

"Obama built upon and expanded the intelligence gathering network Shrub initiated in 2005, but it involved neither boards nor water nor any other torture apparatus."

Thanks for clarifying your earlier point. I'm not sure anyone (other than strawmonkey) is saying that waterboarding played the decisive role. Your revised statement comes closer to supporting your valid point that "First of all, it's a victory for all of us."

Partisan opportunism on both sides tarnishes the achievement of our forces. (Maybe we'll see a cartoon acknowledging their role?)

May 5, 2011 at 1:58 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

BIN LADEN ECONOMICS

Nucanuck correctly pointed out the economic strategy behind the 9/11 attacks. It was always about the money. Bin Laden made a video about a month after in which he pointed out that the stock market had dropped 16% and he calculatted, based on the daily NYSE trading numbers, just how much it had cost us so far.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with your statement, "...he set off a movement in the Middle East that is changing the face of that part of the world..."

Bin Laden wanted America out of the Middle East and he hated Democracy.

He wanted to replace secular governments with theocracies (music to the ears of Republicans.)

I think Tunisia and Egypt made al qaeda's irrelevant, Bin Laden's demise has splintered its leadership, but the individual cells around the world are still dangerous.

Arab Spring indeed.

May 5, 2011 at 2:02 a.m.

To all the conservative morons, a SHORT REMINDER:

With 9/11 the goal of Osama bin Laden was to attack the US AND as an aftermath to BANKRUPT the US. What played nicely into his cards was a terrible administration with Bush/Cheney who did anything OBL could have wished for. Invading the other dictator's country and messing it up there. His plan went absolutely perfect and OBL sure hoped for a Republican victory in 2008.

Unfortunately for him, reason won in 2008 and now OBL finally lost....

May 5, 2011 at 2:14 a.m.
nucanuck said...

Blackwater,

The Arab Street has found it's voice and bin Laden's opposition to the West garnered great Pan Arab appeal. Bin Laden's approval rating has been reported as high as 75%. I doubt that those seeking a freer society are yet focused on forms of government so much as ridding themselves of the dictatorships now in power.

bin Laden served as an example of standing up to power. Now that is happening all over the Middle East. It appears to be a movement that will last years, with both victories and setbacks.

This movement may have been sparked with the self-emolation of a poor vegetable vendor, but Osama bin Laden will get the credit for emboldening the downtrodden masses.

May 5, 2011 at 2:37 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Look, President Obama deserves credit for ordering the raid and using men instead of bombs. Good for him, this time, though three cartoons in a row is a bit much. President Bush deserves credit for laying some of the groundwork. If--if--"enhanced interrogation," rendition, and/or Gitmo helped, candidate Obama ran against these. The Iraq war probably did not help, and he ran against that too.

nucanuck, Osama may be a hero to the Arab street, but I doubt if the current unrest owes him much. His method was to murder innocent people. The Tunisian and Egyptian etc. rioters aren't doing that. Mohammed, the original stabilizing dictator in those parts, is the problem, and Christian liberty is what they need, even if they're rioting against symptoms rather than against the disease, and even if some Arab rioting is directed against the cure. which is following Jesus Christ. (Look, both President Bush and President Obama seem to be somewhat serious Christians, and how many Muslim rulers can you name who are doing better jobs than either Bush or Obama?)

As for Osama planning to bankrupt the US, he didn't help, but Reid and Pelosi and Obama shrank the economy and blew up the deficit. Not that Bush was doing very well before that, but at least he was doing less badly. Entitlements--being 'entitled' to money other people have earned--are driving the US into bankruptcy. Ron Paul for President; Jesus is rather libertarian, sirs.

May 5, 2011 at 3:14 a.m.

Sorry guys and gals, Wars did not and do not bankrupt this country. We have had big bad wars since the start of this country and not even world wars brought us down. Heck, we rebuilt all the countries we blew up after the cost of the war. Still no bankrupt. Sooooo, common since says its bailouts and social programs. Giving worthless people money they did not earn. Our money to the less fortunate who dont/cant work. This is our downfall, not wars, check past history.

May 5, 2011 at 4:06 a.m.

Does "BRAINERDREBELS67" stand for BRAIN DEAD rebels ???

It definitely looks like that....

May 5, 2011 at 4:28 a.m.

a in a Since you are on the other side of the atlantic you are like the French, ass for a head. Your opinion dont mean nothing in the USA. So take your opinion and ram it and stay on the other side of the pond, fool.

May 5, 2011 at 4:48 a.m.

austrian_in_alabama

Is austria where Hitler was born. Yea, that figures.

May 5, 2011 at 5:05 a.m.

brainerdrebels67,

the last comments reflect your intellectual ability, which lies somewhere between a stone and a snail....

and it perfectly symbolizes the conservatives world view....

....and explains how low brainers like Bush, Palin, etc can make it into AMERICAN politics..

THATS why we laugh about people like you on this side of the pond!!

May 5, 2011 at 5:46 a.m.

brainerdrebels67,

I hope that in case you visit Cape Canaveral with your kids, you tell them that the moon rockets (and basically alle others) were built by Hitler-guys, as you call them, and that the atomic bomb was built mainly by people from the other side of the pond, and also tell them that those people did NOT believe that the world was created 6000 years ago...

May 5, 2011 at 5:54 a.m.
Dumbledore403 said...

Sea is not the only one crediting waterboarding for getting the information needed to get bin Laden...but even if it were true, I have a question: Is it right to do wrong to get right done? Does the ends ever justify the needs?...And my answer to that is No. And Andrew a whole lot of the deficit belongs to President 43 and the fighting a war when we did not complete the job in the first place we went to:Afghanistan

May 5, 2011 at 6:20 a.m.
najones75 said...

Is this really still a topic of discussion?

Good job, Obama for ordering the mission. That's not up for debate.

Are you left "wing nuts"...see how stupid and immature that sounds? At least TRY to act like an adult...really suggesting that enhanced interrogations didn't retrieve the necessary information? What a joke. No, what really happened was they asked, "pretty please?". You people are smarter than that...you have to be. Or maybe you're just that gullible.

Really doesn't matter at this point. Time to get back to our domestic issues, for which there is no left solution other than to take more from others to give to those who don't want to do for themselves...in turn, making everyone dependent upon the government.

To my libertarian compatriots, let these guys have their day in the sun. They are clearly going to ride this one bit of success into the 2012 election, as if that one day erases three years of unwanted, failed economic policy. And yes, continuing to spend money we don't have and increasing entitlement programs are unwanted, and they are failed. That's not up for debate, either.

May 5, 2011 at 7:51 a.m.
EaTn said...

Austrian...yes it's correct that our space and other high tech programs were products of some folks from across the pond but it was mainly a visionary democratic leadership in this country that completed the programs. Similarly, Obama completed the removal of bin Laden when others have given up and let him continue living his leisurely life watching tv or whatever he and his young wife did in the nice compound.

May 5, 2011 at 7:52 a.m.
miraweb said...

I have no qualms at all that OBL will never harm another person again. I'm pretty OK with that. I do still have mixed feelings about Guantanamo. I think our fundamental principles of an open court system and due process have been badly damaged by that prison. When the law is damaged the results will resonate long after the inmates there have gone into their graves.

However, I would be fine if they held a trial - and if they couldn't convict some of these guys that they repatriate them to Afghanistan under a Predator drone - and give them a 3 minute head start. Probably not morally consistent, but there you go.

May 5, 2011 at 7:54 a.m.

EaTn,

you are absolutely right.

As you might know, for tiny brains there is only a certain amount of information they can bear at the same time....

May 5, 2011 at 7:59 a.m.
Leaf said...

@Libertarians4Freedom. That's a catchy little post you have there. But you do know that two men can't actually have a baby, right?

Now I know where some of L4F's anger comes from. Doesn't know the facts of life. Not getting any lovin'.

May 5, 2011 at 8:59 a.m.

In a few days we'll all go back to our rising gas prices, 10%+ unemployment, rising healthcare costs, public school failures, and record profits on Wall Strett.

CHANGE we all can believe in? It's the economy, stupid.

May 5, 2011 at 9:08 a.m.
BobMKE said...

Obama was ONLY thinking politically when he ordered the hit on Osama bin Laden. He remembers Clinton’s big goof up in the 90’s when he had the chance to take out bin Laden. If he did not order the hit it would have leaked out and it would be political suicide for him. He was ONLY thinking of his second term and nothing else.

May 5, 2011 at 9:09 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Andrew - I think you got it right in your first paragraph. The President deserves credit for the role that he played, just as all the others deserve credit for the roles they played, i.e. it was a team effort.

But, to bust on Clay for "three cartoons in a row" is off the mark. Yes, there are three cartoons each related to the action to take out OBL, but each makes uniquely different points. The first contrasts the electorates fixation on the trivial, without regard for the multiple and critical priorities that are constantly on the President's plate. The second speaks to the law of unintended consequences and the potential for negative consequences to the manner in which Americans celebrate OBL's removal. The third suggests the possibility of change as a consequence of OBL's removal - I'm not yet convinced that Clay's use of the President's 2008 campaign poster to make that point is intended to give the President credit for the change.

May 5, 2011 at 9:11 a.m.
MTJohn said...

LFL - please explain, again, why the rest of us should not conclude that you are a racist.

May 5, 2011 at 9:11 a.m.
limric said...

Today is a good day in N.Y.C. The demon is dead. A ceremony to commemorate that day by a man that helped bring closure is appropriate and good for the national soul.

Former President Bush was invited to attend and participate. The man who once stood atop a pile of smoldering steel and bodies with a bullhorn chose to decline the invitation.

Gee, I wonder why? Bush looked so tough and Presidential back in the day; he even had New Yorkers cheering him. Is he feeling slighted? Is he being a sore loser because Obama didn’t gush over his ‘achievements’?

Nah…

I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts he’s afraid of being booed. I think that most New Yorkers, those people Bush Co. lied to about the dangers around Ground Zero, would agree. I don’t think they’d like seeing man who failed them over and over, and exploited a national tragedy for political gain, standing beside President Obama, the man who did followed through on his promise to make getting Osama bin Laden a top priority, at Ground Zero.

Truth is, Bush Co. never wanted to eliminate Osama bin Laden. He was too valuable alive. They needed him alive and well sitting in his Pakistani mansion. Bush Co. had no incentive to make the capture or death of Osama bin Laden, his favorite bogeyman to scare the American people with, a priority.

Bush is, as are all the GOP chicken hawks, cowards. If he really thought he is entitled to share the credit for taking out bin Laden, standing with the President and all of the people of New York - the fact that he declined speaks volumes.

May 5, 2011 at 9:24 a.m.
  • Dollar at all new low
  • 1 in 7 on food stamps
  • Cash strapped schools consider a 4 day week
  • Food prices rise to near record levels
  • Treasury suggest $2 TRILLION debt ceiling raise

CHANGE we can all believe in?

May 5, 2011 at 9:33 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

jobless claims are near 500,000 and inflation is coming.....obama wants a distraction really bad...and by his behavior, and his own words, he's trying to milk this for all he can. he's chosen to politicize it from the get go..right from his speech and the photo the white house put out making it seem as if he's watching it as it happens and guiding the whole thing. it was staged.

what a narcissist..........he could've said from the beginning that america won today and it was a long time coming. a decades worth of effort, sacrifce and lives lost by many people long before he got there....he could've risen about it all, but instead he chose to be what he is, a narcissist and a hack. desperate for praise and attention. giving very faint praise to others who did the work while he sat on his ass watching hoops, vacationing or playing golf.

you libs' want it both ways....you like when you think you can benefit from our intel and military, but you only like it when you're in charge. obama said he didn't want to "spike the football" by showing bin laden's photo, but that's all he and you liberals have done since that happened.

nobody is buying that you believe it's a victory for america...you're happy because it happened on obama's watch.

bennett's cartoon is proof positve.

May 5, 2011 at 9:39 a.m.

MTJohn said... LFL - please explain, again, why the rest of us should not conclude that you are a racist.

Seriously... Who says "mulatto" anymore? If you actually weren't a racist or talked to Black people on a regular basis you would know not to say that word.

May 5, 2011 at 9:46 a.m.

All the partisan groveling for responsibility of OBL's death is disappointing.

The Bush family oil ties to the Middle East are what gave birth to this nonsense. Repubs like to forget that our country trained OBL. They saw a way to get rid of Saddam and they took it. There were never WMDs. Iraq had nothing to do with it. It's always about the money.

Can anyone say Haliburton?

May 5, 2011 at 9:50 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

the "we" focus of george w. bush's speeches regarding terrorism is a stark contrast to the i/me/my focus of obama's speech.

give the military and our brilliant intel, (made a priority under bush), lots of praise for doing their job while ignoring the fact that the president of the united states has a track record of disrespecting their efforts. not only him, but the anti-american party he heads.

obama will give more speeches regarding this with an i/me/my focus..he can't help it.

May 5, 2011 at 9:50 a.m.
tderng said...

ok lefties.First,Obama had only two choices with regards to the raid.1 do nothing,2 send in ground units aka the navy seals.The idea that dropping a bomb into the midst of a city with all the high ranking Pakistani military officers(current and retired) was really not an option.Had he done so all cooperation from the Pakistan government would have ceased and they might well have declared war against the U.S.Dropping a bomb into some remote region full of nothingness and taking out a target with a few unintended casualties is a whole lot different than dropping a bomb into the middle of a fairly large city(with the military academy and a couple of regiments of soldiers),that was only about 30 to 40 miles from the capital!!So he had only two choices and he chose the ground forces,KUDOS for him. Second, according to Donald Rumsfeld,former sec. of defense, Waterboarding did produce the initial thread about the currier.From there it took four years of intel gathering to find out his real name,and then two more years to find this compound.Once the compound was found the NSA and CIA were able to finally figure out that it must be UBL in there.So to say that the Bush admin gave up on trying to find him is either an outright lie from the left or at the very least deliberately misleading to make the left look better. Third,only time will tell if he has the testicualar fortitude to do the same with Anwar al Awlaki or whatever his name is who is actively recruiting people to do harm to the U.S.This dirtbag should be next on the target list,with the Mullah Omar right up there with him!

May 5, 2011 at 9:54 a.m.

I didn't say the word itself was racist. It is more like saying midget to a dwarf. You just don't do it. Just because it's in the dictionary doesn't mean it's not offensive. So is "fag" but we don't say that either.

May 5, 2011 at 10:05 a.m.
mtngrl said...

Francis, Bush's "Mission Accomplished" farce was not only more narcicistic than Obama's - it wasnt even accurate. You (and BobMKE and L4F and the other sore posters) are UNhappy simply because this happened on Obama's watch.

Like it or not Obama gets credit for this. Just like Reagan got credit for ending the cold war.

And BobMKE, so you really think this was just a political stunt?!? So the shrub decided not to get Bin Laden at Tora Bora because he didnt want to be seen as "playing politics", yet when Clinton missed it was a goof even though he had no international backing or staging point like Bush did?

May 5, 2011 at 10:09 a.m.
Livn4life said...

And where might a representation of the country that elected Barak Hussein Obama as President be in this picture? America got Osama bin Laden, not Bush(strange silence on blaming him for this), not Obama but a nation resolved to do what sadly had to be done. Why can't everyone just see that and accept that and stop the childish bickering? By the way, you nutjob callers with such naming look no different from the ones you are eschewing!

May 5, 2011 at 10:17 a.m.
limric said...

tderng, Oh no you don’t.

From Think Progress and Newsmax:

Rumsfeld: “Bin Laden Info From Gitmo Detainees Was Not Obtained Through ‘Harsh Treatment’ Or ‘Waterboarding’. “ Dick Cheney said, “ There is currently no evidence to suggest that the detainees that provided the information that led to bin Laden were subject to torture. And Bush Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who presumably has some knowledge about what went on at Gitmo, threw more cold water on this theory. “The United States Department of Defense did not do waterboarding for interrogation purposes to anyone. It is true that some information that came from normal interrogation approaches at Guantanamo did lead to information that was beneficial in this instance. But it was not harsh treatment and it was not waterboarding.”

Without any evidence, and without Rumsfeld’s blessing, it seems like you conservatives are going to have to work a little bit harder at trying to re-write history or take credit for bin Laden’s death.

May 5, 2011 at 10:24 a.m.

limric said...

Dick Cheney said, “ There is currently no evidence to suggest that the detainees that provided the information that led to bin Laden were subject to torture."

If Good Ol' Dick Wrinkle says it, it must be true!!!

May 5, 2011 at 10:34 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Boy, clay really knows how to get into a rut, doesn’t he? Three in a row on one topic? Bennett obviously worships the ground obama walks on. We get that part anyway.

As more information surfaces, it is looking like obama was incredibly lucky that this worked out in spite of his indecisiveness. I can just see the eyes roll into the back of the heads of the generals who advised him through this as he runs around taking credit. Obama knew for weeks or months what was coming down but was too busy campaigning for 2012 and composing jokes about Donald Trump to make a final decision on the mission go ahead. He probably spent hundreds of millions on preparations and had not even decided if he had the balls to go through with it.

Then someone pointed out that if he does not hit bin laden and it leaks he would not have a chance in hell of keeping the presidency in 2012. Bill Clinton’s mistake probably saved obama from sitting on this until bin laden disappeared again.

Face it obamabots! He is a mediocre president at best. If the leftist press was not so devoted to supporting and promoting him he would be packing his bags already.

May 5, 2011 at 10:43 a.m.
tderng said...

limric,Rumsfeld stated last night that his statement was that no one was waterboarded at,thats at,gitmo but that the information was obtained from gitmo detainee ksm when he was waterboarded in a prison "overseas" before he was transferred to gitmo.The nickname was used in questioning other "gitmo" detainees and their reaction and denials led the interrogators to believe the nickname was true and that it was a good lead,which eventually led to his death. He also said that he didn't think the photos should be released because some anti-american "people" might try to use them to indict someone for some type of trumped up international war crime.I happen to agree with him because the one who ordered the attack (Obama) would probably be at least one of the people who would have the finger pointed at them.He is our President and even though I may not agree with some of his policies I sure don't want some international America hating war crimes tribunal to indict him or anyone else for doing what needed to be done!I give him credit for making the choice to get him and don't really care about seeing the photos.Witnesses also said that another live resident of the compound was taken when the seal team left.Perhaps he will give us some info,though probably not because we can't even raise our voice in the interrogation or it will be considered torture.Perhaps we can tickle him into submission and massage info out of him.

May 5, 2011 at 11:04 a.m.
mymy said...

Obama is about to "spike the football". He has not been back to Ground Zero since becoming president. Congradulations to Bush and Clinton for refusing to participate in this political show. They would find themselves in political ads coming to a TV near you soon. Bush has been presidential, something Obama doesn't understand, and stayed quiet and out of sight and let to Left play their games. In the long run Obama will end up in history as our worse president beating out Carter for that title.

This high will only last a few days and Obama will be back in the hole he came from because of his radical policies that have taken this country on a serious nose dive down. When people go into the voting booth who got OBL will not be on their minds.

"Dollar at all new low 1 in 7 on food stamps Cash strapped schools consider a 4 day week Food prices rise to near record levels Treasury suggest $2 TRILLION debt ceiling raise" Unemployment number up today 51% of citizen do not pay taxes. More Change we don't need, etc.

Hide and watch like Sadam and Osama and see what happens. Obama stands to loose by record numbers. Don''t forget ACORN, his connection to that group and the fact he learned at the feet of IL politics not to mention the environment/influences that surrounded him growing up.

May 5, 2011 at 11:06 a.m.
miraweb said...

I have no need to see the photos or any image of that mass murderer again. If the conspiracy theorists were right, Osama would make a video next week holding up his obituary page. If the conspiracy theorists are just nutty conspiracy theorists, a photo would feed the fire. A few idiot political hacks believe that reshaping the narrative to improve their chances in the next election might matter more to the country than than the deserved end of a killer who brought pain and destruction to millions. That just shows what small little people they are.

Right BRP?

May 5, 2011 at 11:26 a.m.
bret said...

Giving Bush credit for the killing of Bin Laden is kinda like giving Brett Favre credit for the Packers Super Bowl victory.

May 5, 2011 at 11:46 a.m.
bret said...

mymy said, "Bush has been presidential..."

LOL! Bush wasn't even presidential when he was President. Remember, he is the one who said that he didn't spend a lot of time thinking about Osama Bin Laden. And this was shortly after 9/11.

May 5, 2011 at 11:49 a.m.

Mymy said... When people go into the voting booth who got OBL will not be on their minds.

Well.... 2012 is right around the corner. So where's a viable GOP candidate?

May 5, 2011 at 12:09 p.m.
tderng said...

bret,do you believe that Pres. Obama has been presidential by touring the middle east and bad-mouthing the U.S.?By bowing to another leader?By "playing nice" to people who want to kill Americans and who only understand strength? Bush has more class in his little finger than Obama will ever have.He may have made some ill-advised choices but he never was viewed as a weak leader as Obama is seen around the world.Pres. Bush at least has enough class not to be drawn into a political stunt at ground zero.He will be there on the 10th anniversary in September.Obama finally goes there after the raid,why hasn't he gone there in the 2 1/2 years since he got elected?

May 5, 2011 at 12:32 p.m.
BobMKE said...

CashingRealityChecks In regards to your 12:09 p. m. post;

It does not matter who runs against Obama. The 2012 election will be a referendum against Obama and his failed polices.

May 5, 2011 at 12:32 p.m.
potcat said...

wwwtw said...

``Take a few moments to aquaint yourself with "Irrefutable Evidence" that Christians are being FORCED to leave (or being Exterminated) throughout the Middle East.

``First off, the day i believe any thing you sputter, will be the unlikely day i go on a date with Johnnny Depp! It ain't going to happen, though a girl can dream!

~`Reach up and adjust the antennas on your tin foil hat. You are getting even Beck info confused!

~ Heres you something "irrefutable" Americans i.e. Bush has exterminated more Muslims in the Middle East than any Christians killed from 9/11 and on.

``~~ Whats Wrong With The World..**YOU ARE !!!

May 5, 2011 at 12:36 p.m.
mymy said...

CRC

The Tortoise and the Hare: The story concerns a hare who ridicules a slow-moving tortoise and is challenged by him to a race. The hare soon leaves the tortoise behind and, confident of winning, decides to take a nap midway through the course. When he awakes, however, he finds that his competitor, crawling slowly but steadily, has arrived before him. The meaning is morally problematic and the story has been interpreted in a variety of ways over the centuries.

As in several other fables by Aesop, there is a moral ambiguity about the lesson it is teaching. Later interpreters have asserted that it is the proverbial 'the more haste, the worse speed' (Samuel Croxall) or have applied to it the Biblical observation that 'the race is not to the swift' (Ecclesiastes 9.11). In Classical times it was not the Tortoise’s plucky conduct in taking on a bully that was emphasised but the Hare’s foolish over-confidence. He really is the faster, but should not have assumed he could win the race without trying. The modern business community has drawn a number of other possible morals from this story.

Lord Dunsany brings out another view in his satirical "The True Tale of the Tortoise and the Hare". In it the hare realises the stupidity of the challenge and refuses to proceed any further. The obstinate Tortoise continues to the finishing line and is proclaimed the swiftest by his backers. But, continues Dunsaney, the reason that this version of the race is not widely known is that very few of those that witnessed it survived the great forest-fire that happened shortly after. It came up over the weald by night with a great wind. The Hare and the Tortoise and a very few of the beasts saw it far off from a high bare hill that was at the edge of the trees, and they hurriedly called a meeting to decide what messenger they should send to warn the beasts in the forest. They sent the Tortoise.

May 5, 2011 at 12:40 p.m.
potcat said...

tder, i just loved the Saudi King and Bush holding hands and kissing session. Osama was a Saudi, you know that, don;t you.

May 5, 2011 at 12:41 p.m.
canarysong said...

CashingRealityChecks said (to L4F);

"Seriously... Who says "mulatto" anymore? If you actually weren't a racist or talked to Black people on a regular basis you would know not to say that word."

--- CRC, L4F isn't a racist; he's a time traveler. He came here from 1861 and can't seem to find his way back to the Dixie that he so fondly remembers (you know, the one where black people bowed and shuffled and even the most ignorant white person could convince themselves that they were superior to someone).

May 5, 2011 at 1:17 p.m.
pmcauley said...

I thought Obama seemed to be taking a lot of credit until it dawned on me: he was taking responsibility. He did acknowledge the SEAL team but any sh*t stops at him since he's the boss. He had no way of knowing, for certain, what the world response would be.

May 5, 2011 at 1:19 p.m.

The supposed brain of Osama was left but the body is missing hmmm.....in Kennedy case his body was left and the brain walked off somewhere.

Werid don't you all think ?

May 5, 2011 at 1:27 p.m.
potcat said...

``~~ Culture my eye, i don't give a damn what anyones culture is, i would love to see any Muslim man greet a Southern man or any American man with a kiss and then take a walk holding hands.

Both Bushies was,are and forever beholden and in bed with the Saudis, IDIOT.

I am as Southern as they come and went to Public Schools and i can't for the life of me remenber EVER having PORK served at lunch.Do you just pull this sh.. out of your ass or just a habitual liar.

May 5, 2011 at 1:57 p.m.

Hey L4F, did you know if you pour coke on raw pork maggots come out? Maybe the Muslims are onto something... Just food for thought. (pardon the pun)

May 5, 2011 at 2:05 p.m.
tderng said...

poth uhh cat yes I do know that as were almost if not all of the 9/11 terrorists.Doesn't mean our "leader" should bow to their leader! BTW.the President did a great job at ground zero.He kept his mouth shut and paid respects to the dead.He kept a solemn demeanor and didn't toot his horn. Also when I talked about the international war tribunals who might try to use the photos to bring about trials for the people responsible for this raid,I forgot about our own intelligence gathering hater Attorney General Eric Holder.Wonder if he will set up an "independent" council to investigate the brave seals who pulled this off like he did the cia personnel who got the information in the first @$#%! place.This investigation should immediately be dropped and the personnel thanked for their service with an apology from Holder.

May 5, 2011 at 2:14 p.m.
tderng said...

don't know where you went to school potcat but I remember getting pork chops and even on rare occasion bbq pork sandwiches which as a wrestler I always wished I could eat but was usually having to lose weight to stay in my weight class.the chops and bbq were a rare treat but I do remember them.Mostly because my friends were waving them under my nose to taunt me.Also we had fish every Friday too!

May 5, 2011 at 2:28 p.m.

We urgently need more distractions from the spiraling crises that are destroying this nation. Are there any more retired terrorist masterminds whom President Obama can gun down?

CHANGE

May 5, 2011 at 2:34 p.m.
tderng said...

crc,proven false on the pork coke claim.The Larvae that causes trichinosis generally comes from eating wild game when it is undercooked.It has pretty much been eradicated in pork grown for public consumption.It is not a maggot it comes from a species of roundworm.Almost all U.S. cases come from wild game,bear meat and home grown pigs.

May 5, 2011 at 2:36 p.m.
cc333 said...

Great one Clay!...Mention Obama & ya get tons of comments,anything else most morons up on here could care less(sadly).

Obama is Not taking full credit for 'this'...you Ditto-heads are delusional as usual! ...Obama administration forged an alliance w/ Pakistan which is how it transired,unlike Bush/Cheney/Rove regime previously. Either for us or against us is plain wrong...as Dems proved.

May 5, 2011 at 2:49 p.m.
tderng said...

cc333,what alliance are you talking about?Perhaps the one that has completely pissed off the Pakistani govt. because we swooped in and took UBL right from under their noses?Great alliance!!!With friends like these who needs enemies?

May 5, 2011 at 2:55 p.m.

tderng said... crc,proven false on the pork coke claim.The Larvae that causes trichinosis generally comes from eating wild game when it is undercooked.It has pretty much been eradicated in pork grown for public consumption.It is not a maggot it comes from a species of roundworm.Almost all U.S. cases come from wild game,bear meat and home grown pigs.

Actually I hope you're right. I just saw it on a video but never tried it myself. I don't wanna give up my BBQ either!! LOL

Have a blessed day everyone

May 5, 2011 at 3:05 p.m.
potcat said...

``~~ I was in the Tennessee Public School system and we didn't have Wrestling either. I was born in 57. I just called a friend to check and he said we sure as hell didn't have BBQ or Porkchops, but we did have that fish patty.

`~ We had a good laugh though, i asked him why we did't have wrestling, to sissy a sport, wouldn't been no wrestling to it, a few knocked out teeth and a black eye. My home town 2011 still has no Wrestling.

May 5, 2011 at 3:11 p.m.
canarysong said...

tderng wrote;

"cc333,what alliance are you talking about?Perhaps the one that has completely pissed off the Pakistani govt. because we swooped in and took UBL right from under their noses?"

--- Unfortunately, cc333, tderng is right on this one. Osama bin Laden was found in a nice neighborhood in the garrison city of Abbottabad (someplace FULL of active and retired military personnel) very close to the nation's capital and just one mile from a major military academy. Pakistani officials (there, synonymous with the military) were not notified of the planned raid because it was unclear who could be trusted and who among them (if anyone) might be complicit in the hiding of bin Laden.

Pakistan's role, if any, in the harboring of terrorists committing mayhem around the globe needs to be investigated. Four high profile terrorists have been apprehended since 9/11 in Pakistan's four largest cities; they have NOT been hiding out in remote tribal areas as previously thought. Let's hope that such investigation is conducted with a cool head and a careful response that does not inspire more terrorism or result in more innocent lives (Pakistani or American) being lost.

May 5, 2011 at 3:39 p.m.
limric said...

I don't proscribe to much, if anything, L4F believes. BUT - as he says' "Listen up, arabs, you can hold hands all you want, but don't f-ck with my BBQ!" I can't argue with that.

As a matter of fact, I'm having some tonight. With cole slaw and iced tea...OH, and corn on the cob.

DAMN YOU L4F, Now I'm hungry as hell.

May 5, 2011 at 4 p.m.
ibshame said...

So,Bush puts on a monkey suit, strolls across the deck of the USS Lincoln under a MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banner after the initial attack on IRAQ(which by the way had Jack, nada, zilch to do with the attack on 9/11) and that makes him a heroic leader according to the Right wing nuts. He starts a war with a country that was unfunded, cost millions of lives, and is still ongoing today. He abandoned the hunt for the REAL MASTERMIND behind 9/11 but the fact the REAL MASTERMIND remained free for over 9 years leads some right wing nuts to want to somehow say it was Bush who deserves all the credit for this mission. Can anyone get any further into the TWILIGHT ZONE than the thinking of these right wing nuts? It's almost laughable. Now when Obama takes this economy and turns it around as he has promised to do just as he promised to get Bin Laden who will get the praise for that? Bush, the man who brought the country to the brink of Depression? Like I said it's almost laughable.

May 5, 2011 at 4:06 p.m.
Leaf said...

Obama can't take credit for killing Bin Laden; all he did was point the Seals at him and pull the trigger.

The Seal can't take credit for killing Bin Laden; all he did was point his rifle at him and pull the trigger.

Bullet - that's who killed Bin Laden. Way to go, Bullet!

May 5, 2011 at 4:29 p.m.
canarysong said...

Limric, YUM! I hope you're making enough for all of us. Sounds like that meal needs some cold beer, too. If you're cooking, I guess the rest of us should bring that. (what an odd gathering THAT would be!)

BTW, you've inspired me to read 'Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas'. I just started last night; looks like fun.

May 5, 2011 at 4:44 p.m.
chet123 said...

Go obama...not bad for a terrorist,arab,socialist,communist,liberal,lefty,kenya born boogeyman without birth certificate,community organizer...LOL LOL LOL

May 5, 2011 at 4:49 p.m.
tderng said...

LOL Leaf!!! I think you have hit on the true hero!Build a shrine to Bullet!!!! along with Rifle his sidekick!!! Long live Bullet and Rifle!!!

May 5, 2011 at 4:52 p.m.
chet123 said...

80 year old Ron Reagan would have rode in town on his horse and shot the doors off the compound with his six shooter and pistol whipping BIN LADEN while talking to nancy on his cell phone telling her to keep dinner warm for him..while riding off in the sun set....folk please dont try to convince these republicans anything different.LOL LOL LOL now laugh at that..

May 5, 2011 at 4:56 p.m.
chet123 said...

Oh yeah since you are honest broker...Prune face Ron reagan said tear down this wall...the soviet quaked in their boots and the wall start tumbling down....tear down this wall LOL LOL LOL...MILKHAIL GORBACHEV is more responsible..LOL LOL LOL

May 5, 2011 at 5:04 p.m.
chet123 said...

i love you republican...lol lol...you just love to talk crazy...call rush..he can help you out if drugster is too busy getting high call fox

May 5, 2011 at 5:06 p.m.
chet123 said...

did i crash the party!!

May 5, 2011 at 5:10 p.m.
canarysong said...

Leaf wrote;

"Bullet - that's who killed Bin Laden. Way to go, Bullet!"

--- No, no, no.... You still have it all wrong....

Bin Laden's death was a Papal miracle, suggests Peruvian president:

"[T]he president of Peru, Alan Garcia, has a novel suggestion regarding the date of the al-Qaeda founder's violent end. Noting that the assault on Bin Laden's compound took place on the same day as the beatification of Pope John Paul II in Rome, Garcia points out that the timing may not have been coincidental: “I have said that his first miracle has been to remove from the Earth this demonic incarnation of crime, evil and hatred.”

http://blog.newhumanist.org.uk/2011/05/bin-ladens-death-was-papal-miracle.html

(insert eye roll here)

May 5, 2011 at 5:12 p.m.
canarysong said...

ibshame,

Shhh, don't confuse the tea-baggers with the facts, reality makes their heads hurt.

May 5, 2011 at 5:24 p.m.
ITguy said...

The hypocritical comments from you right wing nut jobs is beyond belief. I this had happened 5 years ago you would be declaring George Bush the Greatest Wartime President since Abraham Lincoln. If this mission had failed, you would be calling for the impeachment of Obama. Blackwater48 hit this one out of the park with his first post of the day. You bunch just can't stand to see a successful Democrat, much less a successful black man. Grow a pair and get over it.

May 5, 2011 at 5:41 p.m.
tderng said...

ibshame,what "millions" are you talking about?And as for "abandoning the hunt for UBL I do believe that the lead and its final conclusion continued during the entire Bush presidency and into Obamas.Or are you trying to say that after all these years Obama restarted the hunt and found the info by magic incantation?When you want to make someone believe that they are safe and that you aren't hunting them you might,just might,tell everyone that you aren't worried about them so that they relax.Seems to be what happened with with old UBL doesn't it?I am not saying that this is what happened but it sure makes sense in my humble opinion.Its called misdirection and is used in intelligence work often.If Bush just abandoned the hunt for UBL then why was the CIA still following leads during the rest of his terms?Telling everyone that he was holed up in a cave sounds like misdirection to me.He finally relaxed and BAM,got his a$$.

May 5, 2011 at 5:59 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

tderng is correct-the groundwork for the raid was done before Obama. Although Obama's administration can share some credit, the special forces and intelligence work that resulted in the "catch" has been going on for longer than he has been in office. I think the vast amount of credit goes to the folks doing the actual work, but Bush deserves some for the work done while he was in office.

May 5, 2011 at 6:09 p.m.
potcat said...

Richard Clarke, Top white House Counter Terrorism Adviser worked under the Reagan, Clinton, Bush 1 and Bush 2 administrations and wrote a book "AGAINST ALL ENEMIES." Clarke dosen't give Bush 2 one ounce of credit. So i'm wondering why anyone would. Check the book out, because i am not going to explain it to you.

Clinton is the one who got the Department of Justice to indict and issued the warrent "DEAD OR ALIVE" for Bin Laden for the 98 African Embassy bombings.

May 5, 2011 at 6:58 p.m.
rick1 said...

Potcat said "Clarke dosen't give Bush 2 one ounce of credit." and "Clinton is the one who got the Department of Justice to indict and issued the warrent "DEAD OR ALIVE" for Bin Laden for the 98 African Embassy bombings."

First of all Clarke was Clinton's counter-terrorism coordinator and was demoted by Bush to director of cybersecurity, so he does have an axe to grind.

Also Clarke claims that Bush ignored terrorism "for months"--unlike his former boss, Bill Clinton, who ignored it for years.

Look at how al Qaeda grew, and repeatedly attacked American interests while Clinton was in office:

1993: Shot down US helicopters and killed US servicemen in Somalia 1994: Plotted to assassinate Pope John Paul II during his visit to Manila 1995: Plotted to kill President Clinton during a visit to the Philippines 1995: Plot to to bomb simultaneously, in midair, a dozen US trans-Pacific flights was discovered and thwarted at the last moment 1998: Conducted the bombings of the US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 individuals and injured more than 5,000 others 2000: Bombed the USS Cole in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 US Navy members, and injuring another 39.

May 5, 2011 at 8:36 p.m.
chet123 said...

clinton was too busy fighting off republican on a sex hunting mission.....what have they done beside protect the rich and greedy....if they want something to do call a hearing on these high gas prices...no no no! they will never too busy boot licking the rich like KocH brothers(OIL BILLIONAIRES) they atr traitors to the American people...that will change in 2012

May 5, 2011 at 8:51 p.m.
chet123 said...

Republican congress will not call a hearing...too scared....and coward...they puff out their chest after Obama clean up their mess....and start shooting that mouth off like a little poodle

May 5, 2011 at 8:54 p.m.
dude_abides said...

OH...MY...GOD. He freaking did it. I will never forget looking out at a half dark city, winding my Grundig radio, listening as my parents did in the blackouts of WWII to history unfolding. Listening in the dark as Europe was waking up to scenes of patriotism and pride emanating from the USA. SO...DAMN...PROUD.

May 5, 2011 at 9:14 p.m.
potcat said...

You obviously have not read the book. Clinton did not ignore Terrorism or Bin Laden, Bush did.

May 5, 2011 at 9:18 p.m.
rick1 said...

I do not need to read the book the facts speak for themselves of what occurred with al Qaeda while Clinton was in office.

May 5, 2011 at 9:34 p.m.

potcat requests (but will not believe) evidence that Christians and other religious minorities are being forced to leave their ancient homelands (or are being exterminated) throughout the Middle East.

--

Exhibit A

“The plight of Iraq’s smallest religious minorities, including Christians and also Sabean Mandeans, and Yazidis, remains a desperate one. Victimized by discrimination, marginalization, displacement and violence, they do not receive adequate protection and justice from the state and lack the militia or tribal structures necessary to defend themselves in the absence of government protection. As a result, Christians and other small religious minorities have been emigrating in mass numbers, while those remaining in Iraq fear for their safety.

“In one sense, the attacks launched against Christians resemble the continued atrocities against Iraq’s Shi’a Muslims. The culprits are largely the same – Sunni extremists. The difference is in the goal of these attacks. The purpose of the attacks against the Shi’a majority is to trigger a civil war and bring down the government. But the goal of the attacks against Iraq’s non-Muslim minorities is to isolate their members and rid the nation of their presence. Speaking after the October 31 attack on Our Lady of Perpetual Help, Wijdan Michael, Iraq’s human rights minister and herself a Christian, summed it up perfectly when she said it was an attempt “to empty Iraq of Christians.”

“This brutal, unrelenting campaign of religious cleansing began in August 2004, when five churches were bombed in Baghdad and Mosul. On a single day in July 2009, 7 churches were bombed in a coordinated attack in Baghdad. Christian clergy and other leaders have been targeted, including Paulos Rahho, the Archbishop of Mosul, who was kidnapped and killed in early 2008. Last May, a bus convoy of Christian students traveling to their university in Mosul was violently assaulted. During these terrible years, Christians from every walk of life have been raped, tortured, kidnapped, beheaded, and evicted from their homes.

“In 2003, there were at least 800,000 and as many as 1.4 million Christians living in Iraq; it is now estimated that only half of that community remains in the country.”

Nina Shea, U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) Testimony before the Tom Lantos Human Rights Commission, U.S. House of Representatives “Christian Minorities Under Attack: Iraq and Egypt” Thursday, January 20, 2011

May 5, 2011 at 10:37 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

WWWtW, I believe this completely. Other nations do not provide the protection of religious liberty the same way the US does. However, persecution of Christians in other parts of the world does not justify persecution of american muslims here. I can't think of any action that is less american.

May 5, 2011 at 10:57 p.m.

potcat The Tunisians offered ubl to Clinton for arrest and he said no, We don't want him. You or your book is wrong. That is ignoring ubl.

May 6, 2011 at 12:26 a.m.

lkeithlu said...

“WWWtW, I believe this completely. Other nations do not provide the protection of religious liberty the same way the US does. However, persecution of Christians in other parts of the world does not justify persecution of american muslims here. I can't think of any action that is less american.”


I totally agree. But elected officials and the media are only discussing the persecution of Muslims in America, even though, as you say, it pales by comparison (in degree and scale) to what the USCIRF described in the above testimony. The result is the popular belief that Muslim extremists cannot be singled out as a special case when it comes to the persecution of religious minorities.

Religious persecution is always wrong, but Muslim martyrs are simply not dying at the hands of Christian theocratic extremists. For the most part, Muslims are persecuted and dying at the hands of Muslim jihadists. There is no equivalent phenomenon in other world religions today.

May 6, 2011 at 12:34 a.m.

That being said, I realize now that Potcat’s over-reaction was a response to the over-reaction of local professing Christians to the mosque under construction in the vicinity of modernity’s holy place: the shopping mall. Who knows. Maybe the mall will have the same emasculating effect on its Muslim neighbors as it has on Christians and secularists. Maybe everyone will just blissfully lose their minds and souls together in the shoe aisle at Penney’s. (No offense to shoe salesmen at Penney’s.)

May 6, 2011 at 12:37 a.m.
fairmon said...

Making this a political [arty issue is ludicrous. Those so loyal to a party they see everything as favorable to either party is scary. It was a well executed military and intelligence community plan of action. Obama should be credited with not prohibiting it. It was not a Bush or Obama accomplishment.

It is not appropriate to celebrate an execution but perfectly OK to feel good about it. It is appropriate to recognize the success of our defenders and to express appreciation to those that risk their personal safety daily and for delivering justice with an act of courage and bravery.

Again, this is not a party achievement and has nothing to do with who is or was a good or bad leader. Be very leary of politicians of either party attempting to make this a campaign issue.

May 6, 2011 at 1:17 a.m.

tderng wrote:

"Bush has more class in his little finger than Obama will ever have.He may have made some ill-advised choices but he never was viewed as a weak leader as Obama is seen around the world."

This is definite PROOF that conservatives are living in a dreamworld with very short memories.

I am living in a part of the world called Europe.

Here Bush is considered as dumb born-again alcoholic Cowboy who ran the world into the ground.

Within eight years of Bush the view of America went from "land of infinite possibilities" to "land of infinite stupidity" !!!!!! We laughed at you when Bush was re-elected. Get that you moron! We made fun out of your stupidity.

Now with Obama the view gets turned round again.

If you ever travel (which I doubt) to Europe then I give you the advice that you either pretend you voted for Obama, or you pretend to be Canadian, otherwise you will not be respected !!!!

EAT THAT FACT!!!

May 6, 2011 at 4:22 a.m.
rick1 said...

"EAT THAT FACT!!!" Is this really a fact or is this your opinion along with taht of the media in Europe?

I believe Anti-Americanism, in Europe, is stirred up by an endless, daily, obsessive supply of media smears. Take a look at this web site.

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/

In my opinion Europeans vent against America because they are envious, because they still are Euro-imperialists, and because they have a craving to feel superior to others. It's all part of their well known sophistication.

May 6, 2011 at 6:28 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"That being said, I realize now that Potcat’s over-reaction was a response to the over-reaction of local professing Christians to the mosque under construction in the vicinity of modernity’s holy place: the shopping mall. Who knows. Maybe the mall will have the same emasculating effect on its Muslim neighbors as it has on Christians and secularists. Maybe everyone will just blissfully lose their minds and souls together in the shoe aisle at Penney’s. (No offense to shoe salesmen at Penney’s.)"

I nominate this for Post of the Week.

May 6, 2011 at 6:46 a.m.

rick1,

in the countries of my regular travels this is a FACT. This is Austria, Germany, Denmark, France, Holland.

I was actually suffering under this fact during my time in Alabama.

During my yearly 2 months in Europe, when I told people I am living in Alabama, the immediate answer in general was, "how can you bear living among these idiots (=Bush-voters)?"

So, I was in defense and always answered that there are also smart people living there, and that it is not so bad..

May 6, 2011 at 7:54 a.m.
fairmon said...

Austrian_in_Alabama said; I am living in a part of the world called Europe.

Europe is a large area. I am not a Bush fan nor am I impressed with Obama. I have family and friends in Europe and friends that have recently traveled to parts of Europe. I doubt you speak for all of Europe since the attitudes and opinions vary as much as they do in the U.S.

It is evident you are a self made person that is in love with their creator. To use a quote, "you are entitled to your opinion but not entitled to create your own facts". Your return to Europe could be considered a win win for Europe and the U.S. I don't always disagree with your views but your elitist we are smarter than others attitude is irritating. A diploma or educational acievements do not automatically equal intelligence.

May 6, 2011 at 8:08 a.m.
fairmon said...

A_in_A

We tend to associate with people of like mind therefore similar opinions and attitudes. Your conclusions deriving from conversations with acquaintances could be biased. It may be your over bearing attitude could cause some to avoid disagreeing. It seems you may think Hitler was somewhat successful in his belief that he could create a superior race. One has to wonder how he was able to influence and dupe so many supposedly intelligent people.

May 6, 2011 at 8:27 a.m.

harp,

no clue of which countries you have are talking about, BUT I know NOBODY who considers Bush a respectful president, nor a strong leader, abso-f..ing-lutely nobody. A reason for that is in particular his invoking GOD in his invasion of Irak. A fact Schroeder describes in his book as one of the key reasons why he did not join in Irak.

But, it is true that many people here are not happy with Obama, but for other reasons than the Americans. For things like not closing Guantanamo, for still fighting in Afghanistan etc...

But, OK, as you say, I am only communicating with intellectual elitists. Among the farmers in Poland opinions could differ....

May 6, 2011 at 8:30 a.m.
mtngrl said...

Also note that WWWTW's "exibit A" on treatment of Christians is in Iraq - and did not start until AFTER Bush's invasion of that country... Possible cause and effect?

May 6, 2011 at 8:36 a.m.

harp,

the answer to your last statement is way too complex and has deep roots in the aftermath of WWI. But one reason is that with Hitler the NON-intellectual part of the society came to power, it was the mob who controlled the country.

This would be like the tea-party people taking over....

May 6, 2011 at 8:38 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

austrian, strap on your best lederhosen, pack up some schnitzel and take your euro-trash view and shove it. you euro-elitists love obama because you share his anti-american view.

you europeans are a sucker for a good demagogue.......and you love hairy armpits.

man , there really is no accounting for taste.

May 6, 2011 at 8:41 a.m.
limric said...

This morning, Fox News apologized for mispronouncing Barack Obama’s name as “George W. Bush.”

May 6, 2011 at 8:43 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

so now the tea party is being equated with those who allowed hitler to come to power?

you smug, elitest terd.

the way the people in this country fell for the cult of personality with obama, who is a demagogue, is much closer to that. the brilliant slogans, "yes we can"..."change we can believe in"..sure made the "intellectuals" knees buckle...even thoughtthey never bothered to find out what he was t alking about.....the "intellectuals" here fell for a guy who gives a good speech..that's all.....you dope.

oh, it'll be so cool and progressive to finally have a black man in the white house....it's the right time.............yeah....never mind that fact that he's a jackass.

you "intellctuals" love to equate the desire for independence with ignorance. you love a boot on the neck.... but not on yours...but on others ...you love a facist.

you're a pig.

May 6, 2011 at 8:55 a.m.
tderng said...

I agree harp!AIA is in love with himself.His narccistic attitude is classic.I,Me,My,no wonder he loves Obama so much,they are just alike.I am so smart,My education,My worldly travels.All I have to say is please,please,please stay in the land of der furher!!We had to save your weak,dumb,elitist a$$es twice already!Now after reading your elitist self absorbed posts where you tout your superiority over us dumb Americans I would not advocate doing it again.In fact I would actively campaign against intervening the next time some charismatic leader dupes your countrymen.Must be easy to do.Happened twice in one century.

May 6, 2011 at 9:05 a.m.
limric said...

Ring , ring ----Ring, ring.

“Uh Hullo.”

“Hey George, this is Barack. How ya doing?”

“Oh, faine faine. Laura and girls wanted me to say howdy. How wuz that Big Apple place yesterday? He he...he he."

“Yea thanks George, and New York was great. But hey - I’ve got a question for you. Do you remember where you put that old ‘Mission Accomplished’ banner?”

"Huh? HEY UNCLE DICK!!"

CLICK !!

"George? George?"

May 6, 2011 at 9:13 a.m.
chet123 said...

tderng...you said Bush have class.....do the word stupid ring a bell!....anywhere you go when you mention the name george W. the response will be stupid....so i want to know what are you smoking....

May 6, 2011 at 9:34 a.m.
chet123 said...

Tderng...what do you mean us, us, US, fool he was talking about that dumb president name George w. Bush...and the republican party who brought this country down...starting with that looney Ronald Reagan...

May 6, 2011 at 9:39 a.m.
chet123 said...

dont try to hide behind the democrats...i agree with europe and 99% of the world veiw on republican politic....you have been exposed....only care about money...and power..Reagan and Bush was dumb as a rock......reagan start off a democrat and labor leader...end up trying to transform democracy into Oligarchy(few wealthy rule all)...he divided the US....started his presidential kick-off in Philedelphia Mississippi(where civil right workers was murdered by local official)what was that all about...the black people read into it...he was soliciting the southern racist(now known as the HATERS) vote...Reagan own children are divided on his scheme.....the MAN own house divided....he would do anything to bacome president....

May 6, 2011 at 9:51 a.m.
chet123 said...

Good job austrian_alabama...you are right on the facts...call them out

May 6, 2011 at 9:55 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"---You are 100% correct in that assesment. Besides, Europeans know nothing about freedom, they have no freedom of speech like us, they have state religions..."

This coming from someone who would promote the restriction of muslims and their conversion to Christianity here in the US. Can you spell "hypocrite"?

May 6, 2011 at 9:56 a.m.
tderng said...

yes chet it does ring a bell.Actually every time I see you have a post it sets off claxons!!!Also since you don't seem to know the difference between class and intelligence I don't feel the need to inform you as it would probably be over your head.LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

May 6, 2011 at 10:23 a.m.
potcat said...

Ikeithlu, help me out here, i can't figure out if you are dissing me or what. Please Clarify.

May 6, 2011 at 10:33 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

potcat, the quote was from an earlier post of L4F. As usual, he claims not to be a racist bigoted islamophobe, but his words speak volumes. So, no, I am not dissing you! (although I do have a record of dissing folks here!) ;)

May 6, 2011 at 10:39 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Freedom of religion under your terms is hardly free. You have said clearly that you would convert these folks. I suspect that if you had your way, you would force it. Allowing freedom of religion is not "rolling out the red carpet". It is however, leaving people in peace to worship as they wish. Burning Korans, having demonstrations is hardly peaceful. You are again stereotyping, assuming all muslims are extremists. You are clearly a creep, a bigot and hateful to boot. I am ashamed that you are also an american.

May 6, 2011 at 12:12 p.m.
canarysong said...

L4F, Seamonkey, and tderng wrote;

"Europeans know nothing about freedom, they have no freedom of speech like us, they have state religions..."

"strap on your best lederhosen, pack up some schnitzel and take your euro-trash view and shove it. you euro-elitists love obama because you share his anti-american view. you europeans are a sucker for a good demagogue.......and you love hairy armpits."

"please,please,please stay in the land of der furher!!We had to save your weak,dumb,elitist a$$es twice already! [...] I would actively campaign against intervening the next time some charismatic leader dupes your countrymen.Must be easy to do..."

My hands are shaking as I write this because I am so upset. You are a bunch of hateful bigoted jerks. There is no need for you to disparage millions of people because you disagree with one.

Austrian is a bit blunt but the crux of what he is saying is true; because of the election of Bush many, possibly most, Europeans view Americans as not all that bright. Obama HAS improved the European opinion of the U.S. Austrian is trying to tell you something that you should hear. You may not like it, but that does not give you license to unleash a string of hateful poison on him and every German (or European) reading this thread. You guys are beyond disgusting.

When I read the thread this morning I was suddenly thrust back to the time when I moved here from Germany as a kid. It has taken me decades to get over the trauma of the bigotry that I was subjected to in Tennessee because I was an 'outsider'. (based on the sweaty palms and the shaking hands, I guess I am still not over it) I was taunted with salutes of "Heil Hitler!" accompanied by elaborate goose-stepping (the war had been over for decades); I was called a "kraut"; my English was better than most of my classmates, yet I was ridiculed for my lack of a southern accent; I was treated like a leper because I didn't go to church; rumors circulated that my mother was an alcoholic because she would have ONE beer with a meal now and then (EVERY German drinks beer!). Having grown up with black and biracial friends in Germany, it was a confusing shock to see the racism that, at that time, was so blatant and even accepted (by whites!) in the south. When conversations turned racist and I spoke up in defense of black people, I was called a ------lover (I won't honor that word with even one letter, but you get my drift).

When Europeans think of stupid, provincial, xenophobic and bigoted Americans, monkey, L4F, and tderng are what they're referring to. Way to represent your country, guys!

May 6, 2011 at 12:43 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp,

"It seems you may think Hitler was somewhat successful in his belief that he could create a superior race."

While I don't lump you in with the hateful people above, I think that this remark was the most hurtful of all. Will Americans never stop throwing Hitler into our faces every time they disagree with us? Do we CONSTANTLY throw in your face, at the slightest excuse, the fact that you (Americans) committed genocide against Native Americans to take their land; burning down villages filled with children and the elderly when the men were known to be away; delivering 'gifts' of purposefully smallpox-contaminated blankets to native villagers; and forcibly marching thousands of people across the country to be 'relocated', not even stopping as the sick, the elderly, and young children dropped dead by the thousands!? I won't even go into the atrocities committed by this country against the MILLIONS of men, women, and children that were kidnapped and then bought, sold, bred and worked like livestock. This is the Dixie that people like L4F wax nostalgic about!

May 6, 2011 at 12:45 p.m.
pmcauley said...

L4F:

That scumbag Terry Jones burned the Koran knowing it would cause people to lose their lives. To burn anyone’s religious book is just asinine! To even intimate than you want to emulate him calls into question all previous, current and future posts from you. This is Fahrenheit 451 and the Inquisition creeping in on us. Scary! You don’t have to practice any religion but as an American you have to accept them, that is after all why the country was first created.

Is this what libertarianism is all about? I definitely need to revise my opinion on the whole libertarian movement.

pm

May 6, 2011 at 12:57 p.m.
limric said...

Unfortunately, the Austrian and the Canary are right. While overseas, there were a number of times when conversations were..um..tricky. While never defended the Texas mafia, I had to try to explain how so many millions of people could be so stupid, while being the focus of their exasperation. I don't think I did a very good job. I don't think anyone could.

Many in Europe (not all) look at the southern USA as a giant mental Jesus Land. In many aspects, they were right.

Some posting here should open their minds and expand their horizons. Travel to another much much older culture. Place's that laid the foundations of what we have today. If you don't wear blue plaid Bermuda shorts and yell to get your point across, you'll find 'the old country' quite enlightening and welcoming.

And except for BBQ, their food is much much better.

May 6, 2011 at 1:03 p.m.
limric said...

pmcauley,

Terry Jones had every right to burn the Qur’an or protest in front of a mosque. As far as I know, this is still the U.S. and we still have freedom of speech. Is that now going to be restricted because what someone says might offend Muslims? Muslims need to get a grip and realize that freedom of speech is protected here.

Whatever you may think of Terry Jones and Qur'an-burning, this is a freedom of speech and religion issue. If Terry Jones can be denied his right to protest peacefully because of the fear of violence from Muslims, the Islamic supremacists are already in charge and controlling the agenda. And that is, of course, their goal. There has already been a great deal of silliness about this case. To wit: Please read Fahrenheit 451 again - Your use in this context is backwards. Burning books is not, as a general matter, indicative of high moral or intellectual principle. I would add that I have heard that the pastor is bigoted in many respects. He is clearly not a very intelligent person. But. The issue is whether or not Terry Jones's freedom of expression is being infringed in order to placate Muslims in accord with Islamic law.

Our basic rights trump the fears, rioting, threats or even deaths in far off lands. It may raise your hackles but the best examples are the various nuts(me included)posting here.

Free and without fear of sanction or reprisal.

May 6, 2011 at 1:35 p.m.
mtngrl said...

L4F, part of freedom of speech is the freedom to tell you to STFU...

You are free to be as racist, bigoted, and hateful as you wish and so is Terry Jones, Glen Beck and the rest. We are just as free to call you on it when you are - even if you won't admit it.

May 6, 2011 at 1:46 p.m.
limric said...

As the human race becomes more knowledgeable, it cares less for preachers and more for teachers. The antithesis of which has led to a rise of neo-conservatism and Islam as we know it today.

May 6, 2011 at 1:59 p.m.
ibshame said...

Austrian in Alabama is only pointing out what most people in other parts of the world already know about the South. If the election for President was held tomorrow and the Repubs nominated Sarah Palin(the half-term, quitter former Gov. of Alaska) for President and Donald Trump(the so-called financial genius who has more bankrupt ventures than G.W. Bush)for Vice-President, they would carry Tennessee, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, South Carolina and Kentucky. FORTUNATELY, they wouldn't carry enough of the rest of the country to win the White House.

May 6, 2011 at 2:02 p.m.
tderng said...

canarysong,I guess its ok for austrian to be bigoted and talk down about the people in the south because he shares your views.I was merely treating him the way he treats southerners in his posts,but I guess since I don't share your political views it isn't ok for me to act like he does.

May 6, 2011 at 2:03 p.m.
canarysong said...

As I come across them, I have been collecting a few of L4F's more outrageous comments to show To my husband, otherwise he wouldn't believe that such vile, hateful ignorance actually still exists in our country. This seems like an appropriate time to call L4F out for the waste of plasma that he is..... Here is a sampling.....

"God bless the south and may He keep it isolated from Yankee influence"

"I'm not saying slavery was peachy, but it was a state issue!"

"... the problem with Mexicans is they're too stupid ..."

"The South Has Risen Again and all you Obama-lovers can kiss our [word deleted]. We say no to Marxism, no to political correctness, no to diversity, no to multiculturalism and yes to America!"

"Muslims are inferior people [...] When you deal with inferior human beings, you don't accept their behavior, you correct them. It's just like training dogs, when a Muslim poops in a carpet you beat that dirty dog with a newspaper..."

"...you dirty krauts can stay in your own damn country."

"Clay and Obama in a tree. K-I-S-S-I-N-G First comes love, Then comes marriage, Then comes a mulatto in a baby carriage."

"...the only people that choose that stupid faith are the children of liberals seeking more structures, blacks who convert to Islam in prison, and a few self-hating Jews here and there."

"I encourage everyone in the community to do what Terry Jones did, stand up against Islam, burn Korans, hold demonstrations..."

(Note to limric regarding the last quote from L4F,.... Just because someone has the 'right' to do something, that doesn't make it the right thing to do.)

May 6, 2011 at 2:10 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I think austrian is acknowledging that there are great people here in the south:

"During my yearly 2 months in Europe, when I told people I am living in Alabama, the immediate answer in general was, "how can you bear living among these idiots (=Bush-voters)?"

So, I was in defense and always answered that there are also smart people living there, and that it is not so bad.."

I tend to agree: every place has its variety; europeans are stereotyping us in calling us all obese, gun-toting fundamentalist bigots, and we stereotype europeans as atheistic, immoral socialists. Once again-stereotypes do NOTHING to move people closer to mutual respect and understanding. Of course, there are those among us on both sides of the pond that have no desire to respect or understand. These are the ones most likely to use stereotypes to describe groups of people that are different from them.

May 6, 2011 at 2:12 p.m.
pmcauley said...

I didn't say he did not have the right to burn the book but knowing what the likely consequences would be should have caused him to pause. I also agree that those extremists have no right to limit our freedoms.

Get real: killing a cartoonist for drawing Mohammad. The fact that they are amoral in the extreme does not permit us to be likewise.

---You Terry Jones haters are a bunch of hypocrites, you tolerate all kinds of attacks on Christianity yet you do not accept any criticism on Islam

If by tolerate you mean I don’t burn their Mosques: then I am very tolerant. Why would I not hate the extremists of all types?

---Yet it's ok for South Park to show the Virgin Mary spraying blood out of her vagina, right? And it's also ok for the NEA to fund an artist who put a crucifix in a jar of his own urine?

OBVIOUSLY NOT. Must we sink to their level? Unlike you, I strive to be better than the worst elements of society (Terry Jones; Extremists and those scatological South Park People).

Libertarianism is about FREEDOM, real politically incorrect freedom. A libertarian lets you speak, a liberal tells you to STFU!

I would never tell you to STFU: I live the vain hope that you’ll come to that conclusion on your own.

You are very inconsistent: you say politically incorrect freedom is great yet you blast South Park and the NEA. You are very selective. I guess it’s only freedom you approve of?

Liberals tell you to STFU??? WHAT!?! I guess you’ve never heard of the ACLU?

pm

May 6, 2011 at 2:17 p.m.
canarysong said...

tderng,

Show me one thing that Austrian said today that was as nasty as the vitriol that you guys unleashed against him. But, hey, I'm just a "dirty kraut" from the "land of the fuhrer".

May 6, 2011 at 2:19 p.m.
tderng said...

let me tell you something else,canarysong,my family heritage is also from austria around the Black Forest.After the elitist better than you attitude of Austrian in Alabama I am almost ashamed to admit it!I was raised here in the south to be a racist and to believe that African-Americans were less than human.As I grew older and began having interactions with African-Americans I realized that they were no different than I.The same aspirations,dreams and wishes. I will not allow anyone around me to use the _ word.I love the diversity in this country,its what makes it great.I have had very heated discussions about the right of Muslims to build their mosque here in Chattanooga.I disagree with their beliefs but will defend to the death their right to worship as they see fit.So long as their leaders do NOT try to institute their laws into ours they can do anything they wish.I may not agree with your political views but will defend your right to have them.If you look at the news from around the area where aia says he now lives in the land of the enlightened a lot of what you hear is about all the neo-nazi groups that are in that area.So should we believe that all of Austria,Germany,Denmark and Holland have these views?Of course not but aia seems to have free rein to treat all the south as if we all have the same views as a few rednecks he met in Alabama.When an elitist jacka$$ tries to tell me how he is better than me because he comes from Austria and got himself a bit of an education it gets my anger up!So I gave him back some of his own.Apparently he needs some more "enlightenment" because he is at least as bigoted as any southern redneck!

May 6, 2011 at 2:33 p.m.
canarysong said...

L4F,

It was the only way that I could get him to believe that you really exist; he didn't believe that anyone could be so ignorant and so open about their hatred of .... pretty much everyone.

May 6, 2011 at 2:34 p.m.
tderng said...

It was not so much his posts today as much as it has been his history of belittling the south as much as he can in a great number of his previous posts and I finally had had enough!I am glad he is back among people he relates to and can sit around and belittle the southern U.S. all he wants from afar.

May 6, 2011 at 2:41 p.m.
canarysong said...

tderng,

"please,please,please stay in the land of der furher!!We had to save your weak,dumb,elitist a$$es twice already! [...] I would actively campaign against intervening the next time some charismatic leader dupes your countrymen.Must be easy to do..."

Your post clearly didn't address just Austrian and I felt, rightly, personally insulted. If you felt insulted by Austrian, you should have directed your diatribe toward him personally. There IS no excuse.

May 6, 2011 at 2:44 p.m.
potcat said...

Canarysong, this Tennessee Southern Woman is deeply sorry that you had to go through such mean, ignorant bullying. If anyone in my family had treated anyone like that, we wouldn't have been able to sit down for a month. We were poor, but we had manners and i assure you anyone of us would have stood up for you. We could be Redneck and mean when need be and the wrath of Hell would have put upon them. I watched Oprah yesterday and it was about the Freedom Riders. They showed clips of whites saying the most terrible things, i cringe just thinking about it. My hands also are shaking, having just read your post.

May 6, 2011 at 2:46 p.m.
limric said...

Canarysong and tderng,

Let me spin this in an altogether logical, albeit twisted scenario.

Bear with me here.

However unintelligent or bigoted the pastor might be, it could be argued he is handling the process of bringing out Islamic insanity with a certain brilliance. He is even getting the ACLU (of which I am a card carrying member) on his side.

He is using his right of freedom of speech (probably the most important bedrock principle in the foundation of the U.S.) to deliberately bring out the truth about Islams anti-humanity. And he is doing so at risk to his own life. One my rightly conclude, after seeing the Islamic response to the pastor, that however stupid and bigoted he might be, the Islamists have proven themselves (again) to be completely insane.

As things stand, if Islamic hatred, bigotry and intolerance is not brought to the forefront of American consciousness, everybody from Obama to Bush to Hillary Clinton to the Washington Post and the NY Times to the American generals will be cowed and will hedge about the true nature of Islam. Pastor Jones is portrayed as a rabid Muslim hater and distorter of the true teachings, while the Islamists are seen as rational, peace-promoting, and open-minded. THIS IS UTTERLY PERVERSE.

If things develop in accordance with current trends, Islam will continue to expand in the U.S. until its intrinsic inhumanity is rejected by American Muslims themselves in large numbers. That may take possibly 50 years or more, and will result in a lot of damage to the American social fabric, and possibly a lot of bloodshed.

So. It may not have been the right thing to do.

Or was it?

May 6, 2011 at 2:49 p.m.
canarysong said...

terndg, "....I gave him back some of his own."

No you didn't, you insulted millions of people that have done nothing to you. If you felt that this is what Austrian has done and you feel that it is wrong, WHY would you feel that it's OK to do the same to someone else? Two wrongs make a right? ....petty and childish at best!

May 6, 2011 at 2:53 p.m.
tderng said...

Canarysong,perhaps in my anger I got a little out of line with the der furher line but as I said it seems to me that is ok for him/her to belittle an entire area of our country but it isn't ok for me to do so.Whats up with that? You jump my case but let him slide?Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

May 6, 2011 at 2:56 p.m.
mtngrl said...

tderng, the difference I see with the comments are that Hitler is dead and gone, is not ruling Austria or Germany and those are completely different countries now than when he was around. Calling Hitler's name just because someone is associated with the same countries has no bearing.

The south on the other hand is still full of stupidity and racism. Those do exist many places but we seem more "proud" of it here and it is very obvious in the posts by L4F and a few others here. The south is also full of kind, loving people which is why the south also has a reputation for that Southern Hospitality.

And for what its worth, I am deeply southern. My family has its share of stupid racists, but they were used as an example to me as what is wrong. The only difference I see in them and L4F is they will admit they are.

May 6, 2011 at 3:20 p.m.
canarysong said...

tderng,

"... it seems to me that is ok for him/her to belittle an entire area of our country but it isn't ok for me to do so.Whats up with that? You jump my case but let him slide?Seems a bit hypocritical to me."

--- I didn't see anything in Austrian's posts today that belittled an an entire area of our country; do you want to point it out to me?

May 6, 2011 at 3:23 p.m.
canarysong said...

mtngrl,

"The south is also full of kind, loving people which is why the south also has a reputation for that Southern Hospitality."

It certainly is and it's a terrible shame that the L4Fs of the south give it such an unfortunate image.

May 6, 2011 at 3:30 p.m.
tderng said...

canarysong as I said before,it is more in his volume of past posts than what he said today.But strangely he is never called out on his bigotry.

May 6, 2011 at 3:32 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

" It's not that we remove our confederate flags, hide our guns, stop going hunting, and become vegetarians."

No one is asking you to do this. What a crock! You can fly confederate flags, hunt, keep guns, eat meat, all within the law. Now, if as a business you choose to fly the flag, you will be sure no black person will set foot in your establishment, but will spend their money elsewhere.

You are not only a liar, you are a drama queen.

May 6, 2011 at 3:57 p.m.
canarysong said...

terndg,

"...strangely he is never called out on his bigotry."

--- You're a big boy, I assume that you can stand up for yourself. I came back at you because you insulted ME, and I will not let that go by.

May 6, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.

Maybe Europeans and American Southerners have more in common than either will admit:

“Multiculturalism has been official policy in several Western nations since the 1970s, for reasons that varied from country to country, including the fact that many of the great cities of the Western world are increasingly made of a mosaic of cultures.

“However, in recent months, several heads-of-state have expressed doubts about the success of these policies: The United Kingdom's Prime Minister David Cameron, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, Australia's ex-prime minister John Howard, Spanish ex-premier Jose Maria Aznar and French President Nicolas Sarkozy have voiced concerns about the effectiveness of their multicultural policies for integrating immigrants.

“In the Western English-speaking countries, multiculturalism as an official national policy started in Canada in 1971, followed by Australia in 1973. It was quickly adopted as official policy by most member-states of the European Union. Recently, … several European states—notably the Netherlands and Denmark— have reversed the national policy and returned to an official monoculturalism. A similar reversal is the subject of debate in the United Kingdom, among others, due to evidence of incipient segregation and anxieties over "home-grown" terrorism.”

(“Multiculturalism” by Sarah Song, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

May 6, 2011 at 4:10 p.m.
canarysong said...

L4F wrote,

"Southern hospitality is "howdy stranger, hungry? Want something to eat?."

Not to disparage the many wonderful people in the south, but to southerners like YOU, that means, 'as long as you are not Muslim, gay, transsexual, atheist, Mexican, "European", feminist, Jewish, Black, liberal, educated, etc, etc, etc,.....' Oh, but you're more than happy to take our money, I'm sure.

May 6, 2011 at 4:13 p.m.

What’s wrong with the world is tribalism (nationalism) and its attendant xenophobia. Again, Europe and Dixie may be kissing cousins. Some historical perspective:

“Especially in the 19th century, the ideology of nationalism transformed the way Europeans thought about the state. Existing states were broken up and new ones created; the new nation-states were founded on the principle that each nation is entitled to its own sovereignty and to engender, protect, and preserve its own unique culture and history. Unity, under this ideology, is seen as an essential feature of the nation and the nation-state—unity of descent, unity of culture, unity of language, and often unity of religion. The nation-state constitutes a culturally homogeneous society, although some national movements recognized regional differences.

“Where cultural unity was insufficient, it was encouraged and enforced by the state. The 19th-century nation-states developed an array of policies—the most important was compulsory primary education in the national language. The language itself was often standardized by a linguistic academy, and regional languages were ignored or suppressed. Some nation-states pursued violent policies of cultural assimilation and even ethnic cleansing.

“Some European Union countries have introduced policies for 'social cohesion', 'integration', and (sometimes) 'assimilation."

(“Multiculturalism” by Sarah Song, Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

May 6, 2011 at 4:20 p.m.

Another day of strange bedfellows. Let’s ramp it up a notch and all meet up for some fried chicken, turnip greens, and a round of Hefeweizen. (Sweet tea available for teetotalers.) We’ll toast to the justice recently served to bin Laden. No politics. We’ll talk about the Austrian School of economics. I’ll ask the blessing.

May 6, 2011 at 4:45 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Lord, I cannot believe all of you are still working this topic. You can see at this point that most of the worthwhile comments happened long ago and this is starting to look primarily like a collection of personal attacks.

The headline read, "bennett, the intellectually lazy cartoonist, incites forum strife by boring his minions into cerebral seizures".

May 6, 2011 at 4:45 p.m.
tderng said...

canarysong,please accept my apology if I offended you as that certianly was not my intent.You do not come across as an arrogant elitist and I actually like reading your posts as you seem to truly believe what you post.I may not always agree with you but you seem honest about your ideals.My ire was directed at aia and you seem to be collateral damage.Again I render my most humble apologies.(hat tip and a bow).

May 6, 2011 at 5:18 p.m.
canarysong said...

terndg,

I accept your gracious apology. I really didn't want to start relegating you to the ranks of L4F and SeaMonkey; while I sometimes disagree with you, I have never seen you as falling into that group before. Thanks.

May 6, 2011 at 5:26 p.m.
canarysong said...

L4F wrote;

"There are plenty of free blacks that fought for the CSA during the war between the states, and they fought by CHOICE!"

--- I'm so sick of your ignorant BS. If it is just ignored, some pathetic numbskull might actually believe it. What kind of twisted fantasy world do you live in?

The Myth of Black Confederates Persists-

"This is a fiction," Fergus M. Bordewich, renowned historian and author of five nonfiction books, told The Root about the latest rancorous debate about black Confederates that comes as the nation's commemoration of the Civil War's 150th anniversary continues."

"It's a myth," continued Bordewich, author of Washington: The Making of the American Capital and Bound for Canaan: The Underground Railroad and the War for the Soul of America. "It is nonsense. It's a meaningless term, 'black Confederates.' There is no evidence whatsoever from any responsible source that there was more than the occasional slave who was forced to serve in the war."

"Bordewich is not alone in his position. Top-ranking scholars have repeatedly torpedoed the myth, including Bruce Levine, the renowned professor of African-American studies at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign; Edwin Bearss, historian emeritus at the National Park Service; and Henry Louis "Skip" Gates, editor-in-chief of The Root and chair of Harvard's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute. Yet it persists."

Gates said, "No black rebel units ever fought Union forces, although many slaves fought alongside their owners"

"...the Confederacy did not allow them to serve as soldiers. So whether there were loyal black slaves on the battlefield, there were no black soldiers in the Confederate Army. I've documented this repeatedly."

"The fact remains that the Civil War was fought over slavery, as Gates points out, and the Confederate Army was overwhelmingly white. It rankles the mind to think that anyone would fight to remain enslaved."

http://www.theroot.com/views/myth-black-confederates-persists?page=0,2

History Gives Lie to Myth of Black Confederate Soldiers-l

Truman R. Clark, professor of American history (now emeritus) at Tomball College.

"When one speaks of "soldiers" and "fighting" in a war, one is not talking about slaves who were taken from their masters and forced to work on military roads and other military construction projects; nor is one talking about slaves who were taken along by their masters to continue the duties of a personal valet that they performed back on the plantation. Of course, there were thousands of African-Americans forced into these situations, but they were hardly "soldiers fighting."

"By the way, all the Confederate soldiers captured by Union troops were white men. If there were "thousands" of black soldiers in the Confederate armies, why were none of them among the approximately 215,000 soldiers captured by the U. S. forces?"

http://wwwtc.nhmccd.edu/

May 6, 2011 at 5:29 p.m.
canarysong said...

tderng,

I just noticed that I have been misspelling your username, sorry!

May 6, 2011 at 5:34 p.m.
tderng said...

lol canarysong,I'm used to it. even my friends often misspell it!It is a contraction of a nickname i got in jr. high.

May 6, 2011 at 6:48 p.m.
fairmon said...

Herman Cain will likely replace Obama in 2012. Remember the word "except" will not be found in the first ameandment.

Obama really don't want credit for killing Bin Laden and I am sure we will not hear the shooter bragging about it. It was an impressive and just military action. If you have never looked in another mans eyes then shot and killed him you probably are not qualified to comment and you certainly would not condone politicizing it.

May 6, 2011 at 7:52 p.m.
wareagleash said...

where's rolando when you need him?

and can anyone seriously take opinion of a someone with a Clockwork Orange avatar?

May 6, 2011 at 8:03 p.m.
fairmon said...

The first amendment provides us the right to say and do controversial things as long as we don't harm another citizen. That includes burning the Koran and the flag. The federal government at the insistence of many keep trying to dictate morals and behavior.

We have now been the unprovoked aggressor in two wars (Iraq and Libya) which has never occurred before in our history. Afghanistan was attached to find and capture or kill Bin Laden for master minding an attack on us. That mission is now accomplished, why would we not vacate Afghanistan immediately. We are not obligated to build schools, roads and build a nation like we think they should have. Foreign aid, grants, subsidies and other manipulations by the federal government are not constitutional. Why is the federal government involved in prohibiting the sale of drugs instead of assuring they are regulated and taxed? Would people be likely to say "oh no" "if the government doesn't prohibit them I will be a user and abuser"? Of course not. How many people became wealthy during prohibition of alcohol? Al Capone had his clubs and others across the country had theirs. Some families allegedly became wealthy illegally importing alcoholic beverages. Drug distribution is the career of choice for many. We are losing the war on drugs and most likely at a higher cost than the middle east wars. Why is the federal government involved in who can marry who? That is obviously a state issue and should remain such. Why is the federal government involved in health care? That also is a state issue with each state having an insurance commissioner, why is the federal government duplicating the state bureaucracy and imposing on the states their system?. We are evolving back to the tyranny and government control our founders fought to be free from. Why do people leave their country of origin then insist this country be like the one they left? As much as it is resented they have the right to say and support their wishes publicly and privately as long as it is done peacefully.

We are not the richest nation on earth, in fact we are dead ass broke and won't admit it. We cannot continue being the support source for every one that is not successful. We can and should provide for neglected children, elderly and disabled but that should also be at the local and state levels.

May 6, 2011 at 8:21 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Our top story tonight....Osama bin Laden is still dead!

May 6, 2011 at 9:25 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp wrote;

"Why is the federal government involved in who can marry who? That is obviously a state issue and should remain such."

--- That is NOT obvious. The issue of who can marry is a civil rights issue. If it were left to the states, millions of Americans might still be slaves or at least barred from full participation in a country that they have fought and died for, the same as anyone else. Civil rights are too important a part of our constitution to be left to the whims of regional governments that may be run by bigots or religious extremists.

Just a few decades ago dozens of states still treated interracial marriage as a FELONY, and anyone was entitled to place offenders under a citizen's arrest. Alabama didn't decriminalize interracial marriage until 2000! If we wait for people to treat others with decency of their own volition, we will likely be waiting a long time. There are far too many people like L4F, some places more than others it seems.

I would like to not only see DOMA struck down, but see an amendment put in its place recognizing that families come in many forms and offering legal support to protect the partners' basic rights. In a world where far too many people never find anyone to love (or be loved by), why on earth are we discouraging the building of loving, committed families? Recognizing same-sex marriage does not threaten heterosexual marriage in any way. Don't like gay/lesbian marriage? Don't marry someone of the same gender! Simple! If religious conservatives paid more attention to what is going on in their own bedrooms than what is going on in everyone else's, not only would most of us be happier - they would be too!

May 6, 2011 at 9:51 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

L4F posting inaccuracies about blacks fighting for the Confederacy? Well, color me surprised. He seems to jump from thread to thread making claims, but when shown to be in error, bolts. Still can't get him to address the lies his hero Ann Coulter published.

May 6, 2011 at 10:01 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

"herman cain will likely replace obama in 2012" i like herman cain. very much. i think he can replace obama in 2012. i think he may be the biggest threat to the democrat party. i like how he has the stomach for a fight. i'm sick and tired of the country club republicans who don't have the stomach to really let the democrat party have it.....herman cain and scott walker in 2012......they'll have the democrats crapping in their pants....and cause the media to have a seizure.

and mtngirl.....the south is no more racist than the midwest or northeast.....martin luther king jr., after marching in cicero, illinois...a suburb of chicago...said he was never so scared as when he marched through there......sure there's bigotry down here...but no more than in chicago, being from the chicago area originally, i can say that without hestitation. i lived in chicago and northwest indiana...and i'll tell you, the racial tension up there is second to none.

May 6, 2011 at 11:39 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

herman cain and scott walker......i like that....or herman cain and chris christie....

i like what herman cain said, "the democrat party is scared of a real black man"

herman cain is a self made man..a businessman with real life experience..the polar opposite of obama

May 6, 2011 at 11:44 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

Gay marriage in not a civil rights issue. What I should have said why is the government involved at all. Why does any government have a right to say who should marry who. I don't care if they marry each other. One thing is certain they won't proliferate and participate in adding to out population problem. I don't think it is governments place to require a license for marriage or to be involved in that aspect of peoples lives. I certainly don't condone different tax rates and systems based on married, single, hofh, widow(er) etc. Why are things like insurance and employee benefits based on single, family etc. Talk about discrimination. Why should I as a single male pay more taxes while you take a deduction for a house full or rug rats and additional breaks for being married. Why should I pay more so you can take a deduction for interest on a home loan? A couple of the discrimination in the tax codes. I have no problem if two people of the same sex want to marry but to do so to take advantage of an already distorted marriage biased system really irks me and is another indication the system is wrong and discriminates. Another example of government deciding what is best for me, in this case that marriage is to be encouraged and rewarded. DOMA would not be needed if not for the discrimination in the tax codes and other laws that favor marriage. People objecting to those electing the gay life style are not required to socialize or be friends with them and should quit insisting on laws that prohibit them from making choices. The military postion was one example of stupidity, why should be being gay be a reason to not serve and put their life at risk the same as others that are willing to do so.

By the way, those powers not constitutionally provided the federal government remain the domain of the states and people. States are not allowed to develop laws contrary to the constitution.

May 7, 2011 at midnight
canarysong said...

Harp wrote,

"I have no problem if two people of the same sex want to marry but to do so to take advantage of an already distorted marriage biased system really irks me..."

--- Apparently you look at EVERYTHING in terms of economics, but there is a lot more to a marriage than dollars and cents. Gay/lesbian couples want to be granted important rights like being able to be by their partner's side as family in the hospital, being legally considered next of kin, being able to make decisions on their partner's behalf in a medical emergency, and being protected from discrimination when they seek housing as a couple. I'm sure that there are many more issues of which I am unaware. Tax breaks are not foremost on the minds of the majority of heterosexual couples that want to marry, why would you assume it to be for gay/lesbian couples?

May 7, 2011 at 12:32 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

GOD'S PLAN

To all of you god-fearing, bible beating, fire and brimstone christians out there who are outraged by the idea of gay marriage, let me dumb it down for you so you can grasp is on your terms:

Sexuality is a gift from god. Think about that. Bounce that idea around your brain and try to argue against it. Doubt you can.

So, since sexuality is a gift from god, how many gay people does He have to create before you understand that gay people are part of god's plan?

And you're welcome.

May 7, 2011 at 12:43 a.m.
SeaMonkey said...

are child molesters part of god's plan? are those who practice beastiality? they exist too.

that's sexuality. it's deviant, it's not normal, but they're out there. bounce that idea around in your brain, you liberal stooge.

homosexuality is not normal. there's no denying its out there. they deserve the same consitutional rights as everyone else..... but it 's not normal. and contrary to what you libs believe, there is normal and abnormal, there is right and wrong and there is moral and immoral.

it's not normal for a man to want to have sex with another man. sorry, you can argue to the contrary all you want...but, no way. there's not denying it happens, but in no way is it normal.

yes, yes.. i know....the classic liberal defense....."it may not be normal for you, but is for them" doesn't fly.........it's the way they are, for some reason, but it's not normal.

people will never look at steve and mark walking down the street holding hands and smooching the same way they would look at steve and mary.........you can try and force people to, but it just doesn't work....

i don't judge homosexuals and think i'm better than they are..we're all sinners in our own way.. we''re all flawed........

but libs, like you blackwater, are fighting a losing battle in trying to convince everyone that homosexuality is normal.

you overreach....dumb ass libs like you....shoving things in everyone's face and demanding that they accept it because you say so.

and don't equate civil rights with "gay rights"...or equate the black experience in america with homosexuals....it's crap..

the gay movement has chosen to be defined by it's sexual acts......that's their fault....

May 7, 2011 at 3:51 a.m.
fairmon said...

canary,

I guess I concluded that gays wanted marriage for economic reasons when I watched some being interviewed. Many of them made the point that they wanted to get married so the partner could be on the others insurance much cheaper than having two single policies. They made the point that social security favors married people plus other employer benefits. Some of those being interviewed were in Florida retirement homes others were young people in SF, CA. Health care POA can be granted each other without marriage. Two people of the same sex can buy a house with joint ownership without any consideration of their sexual preference. Yes I do look at most things on an economic fairness basis. More people better start realizing there is no money tree and the government doesn't have access to a bottomless pit of money or they will at some rapidly getting closer point in time wish they had. I prefer politicians quit trying to define the American dream for everyone and allow each to define and pursue their own dream. Home ownership marriage and a house full of kids is not every one's dream and burning desire. The biases in tax and other laws that assume that is what everyone should value is not appropriate. Why should someone that is married be given more consideration than someone that is not? Why is polygamy illegal? Does a government that should not be able to deny same sex marriage have the right to deny consenting adults the right to have more than one spouse?

May 7, 2011 at 6:07 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

"Why is polygamy illegal? Does a government that should not be able to deny same sex marriage have the right to deny consenting adults the right to have more than one spouse? "

I have always wondered this.

May 7, 2011 at 7:30 a.m.
tderng said...

As a teenager I wanted to join one of these polygamy religions,numerous wives. What could be better? A different one every night,then I got older found out what marriage was like and came to the conclusion that those folks were being severely punished for something terrible they did in a previous life.

May 7, 2011 at 9:11 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

OMG tderng-that's funny. It's a full time job keeping house with just one spouse.

May 7, 2011 at 9:14 a.m.
fairmon said...

Actually I was thinking of those high maintenance ladies that may need more than one supporting spouse to satisfy their shopping and other passions that one mate finds it difficult to fulfill her insatiable desires for the finer things in life.

May 7, 2011 at 10:28 a.m.
canarysong said...

I keep telling my husband that we need a wife,...one that loves to cook and wash dishes. ......and maybe a husband that is good at fixing things. Is that sexist? Actually, I don't care who does what, we just could use some help around here! Limric.... where's your apron? Rustle us up some BBQ!

May 7, 2011 at 10:31 a.m.
canarysong said...

Harp wrote,

"Actually I was thinking of those high maintenance ladies that may need more than one supporting spouse..."

--- When polygamy exists, it's always MEN with multiple wives...... So unfair!

May 7, 2011 at 10:37 a.m.
sd said...

Re: Likelihood Herman Cain replacing Obama

I see harp and SM agree on this. It's early and we haven't seen much of Cain yet, but he's apparently making an impression in a rather lukewarm field. His "Common Sense Solutions" indicates he will shape his platform around tax cuts, "business-friendly" policies, domestic drilling, eliminating or reducing alternative energy subsidies, repealing HCR, deregulation, school vouchers, and emphasizing the role of religion (Christianity) in America's governance. So no surprises there; he's cleaving to the GOP party line.

My instinct is that Romney will do well this round, in spite of 2008, but we shall see.

May 7, 2011 at 10:49 a.m.
sd said...

Polygamy should be legal, but I'm with tderng--no idea why anyone would want to do it. It seems like a heckuvalot of work.

May 7, 2011 at 10:53 a.m.
fairmon said...

Has anyone seen any expression of gratitude from other countries for the act of bravery by our elite military? Probably not since most are too afraid to even resist terrorism to on a large scale. It appears they think it is a temporary thing that will go away if ignored. Are you surprised at Pakistan's reaction? How vocal has Iran been to date?

Have we forgotten that Bin Laden's strategy was to destroy U.S. capitalism by inflicting economic pain. The attack on the World Trade Centers and the financial district was symbolic of that. His attempts to destroy transportation systems in other countries and foiled attempts at such in the U.S. were designed to inflict economic injury in addition to killing a large number of infidels. It would be a good move if in a matter of days several additional key terrorist were located and removed. He alleged that the U.S. had taken advantage of and denied his country their rightful gains from oil and should be punished for it.

Our own government can and will tax us into oblivion but the middle east is doing it by extracting wealth with higher oil prices which is a tax on every citizen. Gas prices are a direct tax but only one of the ways higher oil prices impact the U.S. economy.

May 7, 2011 at 11:05 a.m.
fairmon said...

canary,

There are countries where women are the polygamist and in the special I saw both males and females seemed extremely happy but they were not living a modern life with all the conveniences we enjoy. I personally would prefer two 25 year old ladies that could benefit from my fifty years of experience without the government insisting on marriage. Please know I am kidding, I like my current status except for the unfair taxes and other laws that discriminate against me for not having the American dream politicians insist everyone should have.

May 7, 2011 at 11:18 a.m.
fairmon said...

sd,

It is early to think Herman Cain will be successful. What impressed me was his admitting he needed information the public was not privy to in order to identify viable solutions. He did acknowledge that who the president selected to surround himself with was extremely critical and should not be politically or party motivated but capability and experience should be the criteria. I doubt the RNC will allow him to have the opportunity. I do hope they are smarter than Trump being their choice. I don't care for Obama's economic ignorance and agenda but would prefer him over Trump.

May 7, 2011 at 11:33 a.m.
tderng said...

harp,two 25 year olds?I would be dead in a week!!

May 7, 2011 at 11:34 a.m.
fairmon said...

tdering, harp,two 25 year olds?I would be dead in a week!!

So would I and probably broke also but what a way to go.

May 7, 2011 at 11:46 a.m.
tderng said...

smiling all the way!!!:)

May 7, 2011 at 11:55 a.m.
canarysong said...

Harp, tderng,...... Sorry to break up your fantasy here...... but,

Both harp and SeaMonkey objected to my reference to gay/lesbian marriage as a civil rights issue, so I checked out what others had to say on the issue. I thought that this was particularly interesting....

Is gay rights a civil rights issue?

Yes

Julian Bond - Civil Rights Leader, Board Chairman, NAACP

"ARE gay rights civil rights? Of course they are. "Civil rights" are positive legal prerogatives--the right to equal treatment before the law. These are rights shared by all--there is no one in the United States who does not--or should nut--share in these rights."

"Gay and lesbian rights are not "special rights" in any way. It isn't "special" to be free from discrimination--it is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship. The right not to be discriminated against is a commonplace claim we all expect to enjoy under our laws and our founding document, the Constitution. That many had to struggle to gain these rights makes them precious--it does not make them special, and it does not reserve them only for me or restrict them from others."

"When others gain these rights, my rights are not reduced in any way. Luckily, "civil rights" are a win/win game; the more civil rights are won by others, the stronger the army defending my rights becomes."

"Objections to "gay rights" take many forms. For some, comparisons between the African-American Civil Rights Movement and the movement for gay and lesbian rights seem to diminish our long historical struggle with all its suffering, sacrifices and endless toil. However, we ought to be flattered that our movement has provided so much inspiration for others,..."

"Some who object to gay rights see homosexuality as a choice, but science has demonstrated conclusively that sexual disposition is inherent in some, not an option or alternative they've selected. In that regard, it exactly parallels race--I was born Black and had no choice. I couldn't and wouldn't change it. Like race, our sexuality isn't a preference--it is immutable, unchangeable, and the Constitution protects us all against prejudices and discrimination based on immutable differences."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_9_59/ai_n6100475/

May 7, 2011 at 12:23 p.m.
tderng said...

dang canarysong!(bubble popping)I don't have a problem with gay rights.What I do have a problem with is having "alternative" lifestyles being advocated or even brought up in our learning institutions.We are not allowed to teach religion and for many people gay lifestyles has a lot to do with their religious beliefs and prejudices.IMHO this is a subject better explored outside the classroom.I have known and worked with many gay people and have found them to be rather fun to be around,especially if they do not have a thin skin and are willing to hear and make jokes about their lifestyles.

May 7, 2011 at 12:58 p.m.
canarysong said...

tderng,

"IMHO this is a subject better explored outside the classroom"

--- I can't really disagree there. I'm not familiar with the issue's coverage in public schools. But maybe it's an attempt to lessen discrimination and bullying of gay/lesbian teens.

May 7, 2011 at 1:11 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Tinfoil hat alert: indian's back.

May 7, 2011 at 2:06 p.m.
canarysong said...

Sigh.............

Yes, Indian. Why don't you enlighten us and enumerate the specific rights that our President has taken away from us. Please include specific references to the applicable portions of the U.S. Constitution, cite relevant presidential edicts, etc.

..........................Uh huh, didn't think so.

May 7, 2011 at 2:16 p.m.
fairmon said...

Julian Bond is not one I would seek or accept counsel from. In a court case in Hawaii some reasons for gay marriage were to enable them to obtain joint health, home and auto insurance. To provide a spouse social security and medicare benefits, filing joint tax returns,receiving social security and employer survivor benefits, protection against domestic violence.

My point is remove all the laws discriminating against singles and widow(ers)and it becomes a mute point. Laws favoring marriage were passed with the man and woman criteria (DOMA) therefore if the criteria changes the laws should also change.

Science is divided on the choice vs. heredity or environment issue. The fact that tax laws and other laws show favor to marriage is obviously discriminatory. Should singles pursue being protected from discrimination? Do they have the right to be treated like all other citizens. Two single people normally own separate houses, autos, insurance, no survivor benefits, etc. etc. which is good for the economy while in addition paying more in order to support those selecting marriage. Where is the justice in that? Yes, let them get married if they are in love and want to but remove the economic incentives which are at my expense and others that choose not to be married in spite of our know all leaders that discriminate against us.

I know you prefer not to look at and consider the economics when doing so is in conflict with your preferences but there is nothing wrong with fairly considering the adverse economic impact on one sector of society versus another when the only difference is the decision to be married or not to be married.

May 7, 2011 at 2:53 p.m.
fairmon said...

I have to point out the tax laws discriminate and encourage marriage for those with incomes above the poverty line but discourage it with some with low incomes. I can show you several couples living together without being married so one can benefit from housing and utility assistance, food stamps and other sources of assistance including a substantial earned income refund in excess of taxes paid while the cohabiting person and former spouse has a good paying job. I can show you one of them driving a fairly new Cadillac Escalade to her part time job while former but now cohabiting hubby is driving his Ford F-150 to work each day. They are stealing from me and those truly needing more assistance but the human rights commission says there is nothing they can do about it. On the other end I see marriage being rewarded at the expense of unmarried people and I get advice from canary that I shouldn't look at the economics of things. Well I do look at it, I don't like what I see and I resent it. I wish it were actually a political party thing but it isn't they are in collusion and both in the get elected at all cost mode.

Those here that just wet their pants over Obama don't realize that warm feeling he gives them is his urinating on their leg. Those jumping on Trumps wagon can expect to be fired at any time.

May 7, 2011 at 3:20 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp,

I was not advising you to ignore the economics of things, I was merely pointing out that for most people the desire to marry is based more upon things that are not financial. You know..... love, companionship, shared values and goals, sex, commitment, sex, the desire to build a family, sex, security, sex, sex, and, oh, sex.

I don't know anyone that married for financial reasons. If that is how you envision marriage, then it is not surprising that you have chosen to remain single.

May 7, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

CLAY OPENS THE BASEMENT DOOR...

And there's Indian, still babbling away in the dark.

And there's tdemg, trying to draw parallel lines between public schools teaching religion, i.e., christianity, and public schools teaching tolerance of gay and lesbian students. Hint: Not every child at a public school is a christian, but no child should be bullied.

And there's Francis, babbling away about how homosexuality being a deviant behavior. That's okay. That's both your prerogative and your right, but I was speaking to religious readers. By the way, the examples you cited would fall under 'Devil's work.' I don't mind if you butt in and spew crap no one but you understands. Remember, a monkey by any other name is still a horse's ass.

Somebody, please close the door!

May 7, 2011 at 4:20 p.m.
chet123 said...

seamonkey...Herman Cain will be just like michael steele...he didnt last very long...when republican get through with him they will kick him to the curve,,,LOL LOL..a black boot licker and protector of the Rich and Greedy...he better stick to pizzas making lol lol....

May 7, 2011 at 4:22 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

obama won't be reelected.

he'll win illinois, because of chicago, he'll win new york city, california, oregon and washington.. maybe...a couple of small northeastern states...but, that's about it...everywhere else he'll get creamed...he'll lose ohio and pennsylvania...he'll lose florida...he'll lose ever southern state from texas to virginia...he'll lose the west.........he'll milk bin laden until everyone's sick of it, because he can't help it. he and his wife should retire to hawaii where he can play lots of bad golf and his wife can stuff all the tomales down her throat as she wants..

the unemployed, the underemployed, the overtaxed, the business community, those who pay too much for gas, those who pay t oo much for food , angry independents and dispapointed blacks won't vote for him....that's a helluva lot of people...

you could run sponge bob againt him and he'd still lose...

we are simply worse off in so many ways since he was elected..we are not better off than when we were 2 years and 5 months ago........blaming bush and pumping his scrawny chest about bin laden won't win him any votes.......

what a jackass

May 7, 2011 at 4:23 p.m.
chet123 said...

CANARYSONG you should know better than to ask INDIAN to give specific...she just screams the boogey man is taking away our country...the boogeyman ,the boogeyman....they just fall to pieces....we may have to get a DOCTOR for her and seamonkey...LOL LOL LOL this is too funny LOL LOL LOL

May 7, 2011 at 4:33 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

5 straight days, one subject.

bennett gets paid for what?

May 7, 2011 at 4:33 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

chet..scared of a real black man, huh?

a real black man who has experiened discrimination and rose above it to be a success in the real world...not in the insulated world of academia or as a lawyer for shakedown artists at acorn. not as sock puppet for the left and anti-americans....or as party of crooked political machine.

and obama..a multi-millonare protector of billionares and corporations that give him what he wants?.....

obama isn't worth to carry herman cain's socks.

i like herman cain...he's worked very hard and is a self made man.......he's not a fraud like obumble......we need real people in washington who have done real things in the real world. obama is you democrats idea of a "black man"......just like biden said..."he's the first clean, articulate black candidate"......guess he didn't consider jesse jackson or al shartpon clean..

you libs are scared of black man who is a conservative.......you prefer a black man who is leftist bootlicker......

and kiss my ass, blackwater..i make many good points..many.....you just don't have the balls to deal with them because you're a democrat party whore.

your avatar suits you really well...

May 7, 2011 at 4:39 p.m.
chet123 said...

Seamonkey...i will wage a bet...that Obama will be re-elected...who ever candidate looses ..that person(you or I)will paid for the other guy dinner at a top quality Resturant in chattanooga...let me know if you're on LOL LOL....

May 7, 2011 at 4:46 p.m.
SeaMonkey said...

you libs don't like self-made men and women....you don't like those who seek to be independent.

because you're about control..control of what one thinks, what one does, how much one has, how one comes and goes, what one eats, what one doesn't eat...etc...etc.....

see if you're independent and making it on your own..you don't need to the governments help..

you're so predictable.......that's why you hate herman cain........you hate him because he's a capitalist, a patriot and...most of all..." a real black man".....you dems are the racists and the haters of those who are successful.....you hate that herman cain is black man who does not depend on the governement.....he's your worst nightmare....you hate that he may inspire young black americans....you're scared of that......obama just talks and talks...young black men are worse off now then they were before.....

obama is a fraud....and herman cain knows how to articulate it....

May 7, 2011 at 4:48 p.m.
canarysong said...

HELLO......... All you good Christians out there...... All you lovers of the Constitution....

Are none of you disturbed by Herman Cain's quite emphatic statement that he intends to exclude certain people from serving In his administration PURELY based on their religious affiliation? If that is not in direct violation of the Constitution, then it most certainly violates the spirit of it!

BTW, FrancisMonkey,

Your constant shrieking that liberals "hate" Herman Cain, Sarah Palin, or whoever the fringenut of the week happens to be, is simply silly. There is no one in sight that could be a rival to Obama worthy of getting excited about, pro or con.

May 7, 2011 at 5:12 p.m.
rick1 said...

chet123 "Herman Cain will be just like michael steele...he didnt last very long...when republican get through with him they will kick him to the curve"

What about Bill Clinton's back door deal to get Kendrick Meek a black man to drop out of Florida's U.S. Senate race. Gov. race in favor of Charile Crist a white man?

Why would Clinton select a former Republican turned Independent over the black candidate who won the Democrat primary? After all, the Democrats are the party of civil rights. Right?

Looks like Clinton was willing to toss the black man under the bus, in order to defeat a Latino.

How about when Roland Burris was appointmented as Senator by Blago, and Harry Reid and Dick Durbin immediately met with Burris, and Burris was encouraged not to run when his term expired. Burris acted out at first, saying he would run again, but in the end he did as he was told by his Democrat Masters.

So how can you honestly sit there and say when republicans get through with Herman Cain they will kick him to the curve?

May 7, 2011 at 5:39 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

RACIAL PROFILING

Rick1 wondered, "What about Bill Clinton's back door deal to get Kendrick Meek a black man to drop out of Florida's U.S. Senate race. Gov.(sic) race in favor of Charile Crist a white man?...Looks like Clinton was willing to toss the black man under the bus, in order to defeat a Latino."

It would look like that to someone who only saw the world in general or politics in particular through a racial filter. Meek had no chance to win the Senate seat. None zero zip. Christ was a decent governor, enjoyed bipartisan popularity, and was a shoe in for the Republican nomination until the tea baggers showed up.

They pushed Rubio into the nomination and Christ - no doubt checking his poll numbers - declared himself an Independent candidate.

Not long before the election Clinton apparently approached Meek to not only drop out of the race but to throw his support behind Christ. It wasn't just Clinton. Lots of people were urging Meek to step down because his presence on the ballot ensured Rubio's election. Democrats preferred an Independent candidate with an axe to grind with Republicans over a tea bagger with Presidential aspirations.

Like I said, Meek had no chance of ever becoming a Senator in that election.

And Francis, you tiny man, I welcome your hatred.

May 7, 2011 at 8:45 p.m.
rick1 said...

bw48, funny how you have to throw the tea party into this, and make excuses. If the Republicans had did this you and the media would be making it a about race.

I noticed you did not address the issue with Roland Burris and how he was treated by Reid and Durbin either.

May 7, 2011 at 9:03 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

WHAT'S THE QUESTION?

Rick, I've read your 9:03 post over three times and I'm still confused. You said, "funny how you have to throw the tea party into this." Rubio was backed by the tea baggers. They didn't like Christ because he appeared at a nonpartisan public event with Obama. Rubio won the Republican senatorial primary. Meek won the democratic primary. Christ, a popular governor, decided to seek the Senate as an Independent candidate. Where's the humor?

It was not about race.

You didn't dispute anything I wrote about the Florida Senate campaign. Nothing. You just threw a hypothetical against the wall in hopes it would stick. Tell you what, punch up your argument and make a case showing I was wrong, not just "funny."

Clinton really tried to get a black candidate to drop out of a race to prevent a latino from beating a white candidate? Seriously? And yet Clinton still has an office in Harlem? Fascinating train (wreck) of thought. Until you do that I won't waste my time shredding your other flaccid argument.

May 7, 2011 at 9:22 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

All of those non-financial things you enumerate can be had without a marriage license although I do think children should be born to married parents. Other than that I can have all of those things mentioned. I think a widow or widower may prefer not having a new partner but I don't think I should be discriminated against for making that choice. What is the justification for showing such favor to those that are married by shifting significant insurance cost and tax burden to those not married? 60% of my property taxes go to pay for educating the kids of those that have them. A significant portion of the sales tax I pay goes to supporting colleges their kids attend. The discrimination and confiscation from those choosing not to be married with kids and those whose dream is not a "leave it to beaver" home environment is not justified. I know for a fact marriage certainly is not necessary for sex. I am also certain it couldn't be better if my lady friend and I were married.

By the way I also think in addition to drugs being legalized, regulated and taxed prostitution should be also. Gambling is another vice that people will participate in whether regulated and taxed or not. There should be a national lottery designed for all 50 states participating (or 57 if Obama will ID the others). There are more gains from these activities than most people realize. Those benefitting pay essentially zero income tax but realize most of the benefits including the cost of an outstanding military.

I admit my liberal views are strictly common sense and economics not some bleeding heart touchy feely altruistic reason. Can you imagine how uncomfortable I make my bible belt congressman and senator with my opinions? I frequently get no response but I have been given a staff members number to call regarding some issues.

I may never have an impact but I will continue being a pain in the rear for them and I will try to influence as many voters as I can that they are being had and should insist on fairness that is verifiable not because someone said it was.

May 7, 2011 at 9:49 p.m.
rick1 said...

Christ could not have been that popular of a governor if he had to drop out as a republican and run as an independent. Then Clinton had to as Meek to drop out and Christ still didn't win.

As far as Clinton still having a office in Harlem, I can't answer that even after it was reported in the book Game Change that Clinton made the comment "A few years ago, this guy (Obama) would be getting us coffee." Even Al Sharpton stated the alleged comment Clinton reportedly made was "far more disturbing,then the comment Harry Reid's comment about Obama being "light skinned" and has no "Negro dialect"—

I'm still waiting for your reply on how Burris was treated by Reid and Durbin.

May 7, 2011 at 9:59 p.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

There are people unwilling to run or put up with the political crap that could and would kick Obama's butt all the way back to Chicago but unfortunately you are currently correct that there is no one on the horoizon that can do it. Of course he is very capable of beating himself. If Herman Cain openly stated what most of them do without admitting it I see no problem with that. He may be too open, honest and transparent to compete in the snake pit of politics.

May 7, 2011 at 10:07 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Cain won't be abel to unseat Obama, Francis.
The most disgusting episode in this historic moment is gum smacking Rumsfeld trying his damnedest to latch on to Obama's coattail by suggesting that their torturing at Guantanamo might have had some abstract peripheral effect on the search for bin Laden. Sitting there looking as feeble and lost as bin Laden does rocking back and forth with his clicker. Bush was wise not to appear with Obama at ground zero. He would have looked like Nixon in the Kennedy debate next to the potent, vibrant President. I wonder how Khadafi is sleeping these days.

May 7, 2011 at 11:17 p.m.
rick1 said...

canarysong, "Yes, Indian. Why don't you enlighten us and enumerate the specific rights that our President has taken away from us. Please include specific references to the applicable portions of the U.S. Constitution, cite relevant presidential edicts, etc."

Obama order reverses a 1983 Reagan administration decision in order to grant Interpol, the International Criminal Police Organization, two key privileges. First, Obama has granted Interpol the ability to operate within the territorial limits of the United States without being subject to the same constitutional restraints that apply to all domestic law enforcement agencies such as the FBI. Second, Obama has exempted Interpol's domestic facilities -- including its office within the U.S. Department of Justice -- from search and seizure by U.S. authorities and from disclosure of archived documents in response to Freedom of Information Act requests filed by U.S. citizens. Think very carefully about what you just read: Obama has given an international law enforcement organization that is accountable to no other national authority the ability to operate as it pleases within our own borders, and he has freed it from the most basic measure of official transparency and accountability, the FOIA.

Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/editorials/obama-gives-interpol-free-hand-us

May 7, 2011 at 11:41 p.m.
canarysong said...

Harp wrote:

"All of those non-financial things you enumerate can be had without a marriage license although I do think children should be born to married parents. Other than that I can have all of those things mentioned."

--- That is very true, but it's a matter of perception and also of cultural norms. Most people want a committed, lifetime romantic partner and they have the perception that it is more likely to last if they are married. Whether or not that is true is something else altogether. And in our culture a relationship that is 'legitimized' by marriage is taken more seriously by the couple's family and community. Same-sex couples may have an even more keen desire to have their relationship respected than the rest of us do; they have been typically marginalized, at best.

"I know for a fact marriage certainly is not necessary for sex"

--- Yes, you and I, and most people know that, but have you noticed what has been going on in this country?....the push for abstinence only sex education, chastity-until-marriage pledges and other efforts by the religious right to limit human sexuality to the confines of their own narrow perspective. My evangelical Christian friend was telling me how she hoped that her 18 year old grandson would get married as soon as he graduated from high school so that he and his girlfriend would not be engaging in sinful premarital sex. I think my tongue may still have teeth marks from me biting it to keep from telling her what I thought of that!

I agree with you on the drugs (soft), prostitution, and gambling, also for practical reasons. It has taken me a little longer on those last two to come around to that conclusion. The Netherlands is a wonderful place to live (much of our family lives there) and the sky hasn't fallen as a result of their legal prostitution and marijuana. I would think that those using legal prostitutes are far less likely to contract (and then spread) diseases. Since we have been losing our expensive war on drugs in the U.S. (big time), maybe we should take a little wind out of the fight by at least treating marijuana like we do alcohol. As for gambling, it is legal in communities very near me and the locals have seen a tremendous increase in local revenue and jobs. It's not the kind of environment that I would choose to live in but it seems to work for them.

May 8, 2011 at 1:12 a.m.
canarysong said...

Harp,

I'll bet you're met with some bug-eyed stares and some dropped jaws when you voice those opinions at the conservative events that you attend. Maybe Gary Johnson, the former governor of New Mexico, is the republican for you... liberal on most social issues and fiscally conservative. He could maybe pick up a few votes from across the aisle (if he won the primary), but he doesn't seem to have enough name recognition (or money backing him).

Rick1,

Thanks for that info. I will try to check that out from several sources. Indian couldn't back up anything if his life depended on it; he just rants incoherently and runs. Does anyone else have any information on the things that Rick1 brought up? Blackwater?? Anyone?

May 8, 2011 at 1:23 a.m.

canary your attitude tonight and last has changed. You seem to have forgot this is all opinions here. Your take up for aia even though no one believes him. He is the francis of europe. You disapoint me a lot. You seem to take the devils advocate every time now. aia does not know this thread is opinion, so he jumps on people and calls them names. He says he is educated and teaches school here but dont know the difference in Iraq and Irak. I know 1st graders that know better. He is a liar and just stirs crap. I feel sorry for you.

May 8, 2011 at 2:35 a.m.

let me come back to the nice discussion yesterday and heat it up again a bit.

By chance I met a couple yesterday, she from Barbedos he from Austria. They lived in Chicago and Minneapolis for several years.

As I mentioned living in Alabama for five years, they rolled eyes and asked, how can you bear living among these "idiots".

So, I asked, what the word "idiot" refers to. The answer was "Bush-voters who take the Bible literally...."

and "... ruining the world by their resistence against measures to make the US more energy efficient and fighting global warming..."

So, I was again on defense and explained there are also smart people living there (which they hardly believed)

So, conservatives, I see the south more positive than the majority of people here. This should really tell you something !!!!

May 8, 2011 at 6:37 a.m.
fairmon said...

a_in_Ala.,

You should hold a political office in Austria. Anyone that can conclude a poll of two people with no direct personal exposure to an entire region of a country is evidence that their personal opinion is the prevailing opinion of the countries of all of Europe should hold office. This may be equal in ignorance to those you put in that category. I do give you credit for being smart enough to leave and return to a country you consider much better. Those you have such disdain for are fortunate that you can't vote and that your opinion is of no value to them and has no impact. It would serve them better than attempting to defend them if instead you just forgot you were ever there and perhaps they can do likewise.

Your condescending attitude and air of superiority are so irritating I suspect you have never developed any meaningful friendships beyond a group of coffee shop and pub crawling elitist who are primarily in some non productive liberal arts field.

May 8, 2011 at 8:24 a.m.

AIA has nothing but anecdotal evidence for her extremist views. It is what now passes as "scholarship" and we are much better off without it.


“Mobs Set Egypt Churches On Fire, 10 Killed” (AP, Cairo May 8, 2011, 07:58 am ET)

“Muslim mobs set two churches on fire overnight in a Cairo slum during sectarian clashes that left 10 dead and more than 200 injured, deepening religious violence in military-ruled Egypt while the country is already struggling through a chaotic and lawless transition to democracy.

“Military authorities arrested 190 people, immediately sending them to military prosecutions and threatened the maximum penalty against anyone attacking houses of worship. It was the military's toughest response yet to a series of violent clashes between the two religious groups and signifies swift justice.”


This violence against Christians and their churches is the rule rather than the exception in the Middle East, Africa, Southeast Asia and elsewhere. This AP report (via NPR’s website) illustrates how simple-minded western secularists extrapolate that “religious violence” is a two-way street, or that we would be better off without the two mentioned in the article. If you read the article carefully and compare it with more objective accounts, you will notice that the violence runs in only one direction. If Christians, lacking protection from the state, defend themselves, they, too, are said to be engaging in “religious violence.”

The Islamist worldview shares several features with the western secular worldview: it is ethnocentric, tribalist, and, lacking a coherent, humane system of ethics, is left with nothing but violence as a means of accomplishing its ends. The record of the past three hundred years is unmistakable. But then, schools teach students to bury their heads in the sand when it comes to this obvious feature of modern history.

Though the record of those who profess it isn't spotless, the religion peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control grows stronger. And, especially outside the West and the Middle East, it is growing numerically very quickly.

May 8, 2011 at 8:39 a.m.
fairmon said...

a_in_Ala,

How is the Euro experiment working out for you? Are you prepared for the eventual demise of the Euro? How long will the people of Germany keep propping up and baling out the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). It is admirable of the people of Germany with much less liberal programs to continue sending and loaning money to those with more liberal social programs so they can continue to spend and maintain their life styles. I had no idea the Germans could be so accommodating and caring about other countries or am I missing something? Perhaps on your next two peoples opinion poll you may let us know what the ground swell of opinion is regarding this issue.

May 8, 2011 at 8:41 a.m.

You guys don't get it, but, I am not surprised ...

Let me formulate it like that. Whoever, educated in a country around Germany, comes to the US and is faced with attitudes towards life from southern conservatives, such as being gun-loving, Jesus-focused, anti-health-care, anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-Bush, etc. realizes a type of shock that pre-enlightment-period, middle age world-views still exist. And this in a country which rules the world. THis is the kind of (negative) surprise we experience in your country.

I would not mind this attitude if it would not be so dangerous to the rest of the world, in terms of the environment and wild west politics of the conservatives...

May 8, 2011 at 9:03 a.m.
canarysong said...

brainerdrebels,

"You seem to have forgot this is all opinions here. Your take up for aia even though no one believes him."

--- Jeeeshhh! --- First of all, if this is for opinions then he is also entitled to his and it is irrelevant whether or not anyone "believes" his opinion. His point about Europeans' opinions of Americans and the effects that our choices of elected leaders has had on that opinion is true. You can care or not, you can believe it or not, but it remains true none-the-less.

Also, more than "taking up for him", I was primarily taking up for myself. I may have curled up into a mute little ball and taken the "kraut", "der furher", and "Hitler" insults when I was a kid, but I am not going to put up with that bulls**t anymore!

"He is the francis of europe."

--- Well, he certainly is as blunt as francis, but I really don't think that he is a hate-filled person (francis certainly seems to be). Unfortunately his bluntness keeps people from being able to hear what he has to say; maybe he could work on that, but I think he may have given up on reasoning. I have had long 'conversations' with him beyond the main comment board and I believe him to be a decent person who is still trying to process the difficult experience that he and his family had while living in the south. It is hard to be thrust into a culture very different from your own.... try it sometime. His experience rings true to me because it sounds similar my own. And as we both have said, we also know smart, open-minded, and reasonable southerners. In fact, both of us have defended southerners when others have criticized them in our presence.

"He says he is educated and teaches school here but dont know the difference in Iraq and Irak."

--- Has it occurred to you that English is not his native language? Have you noticed that the error was a phonetic spelling? I would venture a guess that he may know another one or two beyond German and English, most Europeans do. How fluent are YOU in any language other than English? In fact, should I take a red pencil to your post and correct the numerous errors? There are quite a lot of people in the U.S. that cannot speak or write a coherent sentence in THEIR OWN NATIVE LANGUAGE! Some of them write on this forum regularly.

"You disapoint me a lot."

--- Soooo, if you feel offended by what someone says about southerners, you have a right to be angry. But if I feel offended by what someone says about Germans, I should keep my mouth shut? BULL!

May 8, 2011 at 11:44 a.m.
fairmon said...

a_in_Ala.

Perhaps those coming to the U.S. should do more investigating and have a better understanding of the culture when selecting their place to come to. I can't help but wonder why anyone would want to leave such an enlightened place and move to a strange far away land? People normally move to get away from something or to go to something. Care to share with us as why you left the land of the enlightened and ventured into the darkness you describe? Why do so many do that? What is the attraction?

I have several real good friends in Alabama and I certainly am not in agreement with many, in fact most of their ideologies. They in turn are shocked at my opinion on most social matters. However, we are still the best of friends and I am confident should I need any help or assistance from them it would be quickly forthcoming and the same is true in return. Many were in the area of recent severe weather with none having significant damage or losses. When contacted they were all assisting others in ways most people wouldn't believe. Not one said the government should do anything. I fail to recognize the danger they present to the rest of the world especially when compared to many other regions of the earth.

May 8, 2011 at 11:55 a.m.
canarysong said...

Since I am very sick with a 'want-to-cut-my-head-off' bad cold (Mother's Day activities cancelled; resulting foul mood) and don't have anything better to do, I might as well add this....

brainerdrebel wrote; "You seem to take the devils advocate every time now",

--- I do what I always do - say what I think. Usually that is from the perspective of a liberal, feminist, environmentalist, (apparently "nonproductive" liberal arts type, according to harp) atheist of a European upbringing. Oh wait..., much of the right has seen fit to demonize every single one of those things.... I see where the "devil's advocate" is coming from. Well... in that case, I guess I don't really have an argument.

May 8, 2011 at 2:12 p.m.

harp,

" How long will the people of Germany keep propping up and baling out the PIGS (Portugal, Italy, Greece, Spain). "

I hope we have to bail out some more countries, since I have all my money in US-Dollars, which has the same value as my toilet-paper. In case some other countries go bankrupt the Dollar might even buy me something...

Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain etc... the south of Europe is to middle and northern Europe, the same as the south to the East and West coast. Less educated, more religious, weak econonomicaly, such that people here would wish they are not member of the EU, similar to the US, where I know people in the north wishing that Lincoln would not have made the "mistake" ... Let alone the South could scientifically and economically hardly compete with Mexico...

May 8, 2011 at 2:16 p.m.

I wonder what Europe’s former colonies think of it's attempt to enlighten the rest of the world.

Happy Mother’s Day!

May 8, 2011 at 5:15 p.m.

While we're at it, let's ask immigrants to Europe about the hospitality they receive. Or about ethnic diversity and religious tolerance in northern and western Europe. :) LOL

America, and the South in particular, certainly has its share of image problems to address. But we are not alone.

May 8, 2011 at 5:44 p.m.
canarysong said...

Please tell us, wwwtw, since you claim to know so much about this, what personal experience have you had living in Europe?

I have related my experiences of living in two European countries for quite a few years. My husband is from another European country. We both have many dozens of family members still living in several countries there. We also have many expat European friends here in the U.S., as well as many American friends that have spent years living in various European countries. These are issues that we have all talked about a lot together. These conversations have been very consistent in their support of everything that I have ever said on this forum regarding European opinion (particularly on racism and religious extremism).

Are Germans unwelcoming to 'outsiders' and minorities? Bigotry can be found anywhere, but in Germany today not usually to the degree that is common in the U.S. There is some resentment in many European countries (including Germany) about the tremendous influx of Muslim immigrants. Europeans do not have a very high regard for religious extremism of any flavor and the repressive and irrational mindset that usually accompanies it.

On racism -

An Unexpected Freedom: What black U.S. soldiers experienced in Germany after the war

"The German experience very much changed the black Joe however: it shook his life and self-image. In "racist" Germany of all places, he found his personal freedom, in the same Germany whose inhabitants - that is what he had been told - had collectively murdered millions of people for racist reasons until only a few months earlier."

"In "Last of the Conquerors," William Gardner Smith's character, a black sergeant, says: "You know what the hell I learned? That a *r ain't no different from nobody else. I had to come over here to learn that. I hadda come over here and let the Nazis teach me that."

"There were approximately 30,000 black U.S. soldiers who had come to liberate the world from German fascism. "Many of them, particularly those from the American South, experienced for the first time in their lives the freedom to date white women without fear of retribution," according to Ebony magazine. "At a time, when lynching was still all too common in the American South, Germany appeared, especially to those who grew up in the South, like a haven of racial tolerance." Ebony wrote that black soldiers enjoyed "more friendship and equality in Berlin than in Birmingham or on Broadway."

http://www.atlantic-times.com/archive_detail.php?recordID=1706

This is consistent with what I have observed (albeit years later) and what my well-traveled black friends and acquaintances have related to me. BlackFemNlib has said that her years growing up in Germany were the happiest of her life, so I imagine that she might agree as well.

May 8, 2011 at 7:32 p.m.
canarysong said...

On the Jewish community in Germany today -

Israel's anxiety as Jews prefer Germany:

Germany's Jewish population has increased ten-fold since the fall of the Berlin wall, many of them emigrating from Israel.

"In addition, many Jews who once might have considered emigrating to Israel - making their Aliya - have in the past few years been choosing to head to Germany instead. In 2003, for example, 12,383 Jews reportedly chose to emigrate from the former Soviet Union to Israel. But 15,442 went to Germany. The latter country, which had conceived the idea of eliminating Jews altogether just 60 years previously, was more enticing to them than the promised land itself."

"But the decision by Soviet Jews to choose Germany over Israel has been cause for serious friction between the two countries. Israel lobbied hard - and ultimately successfully - to persuade Germany to end its generous immigration laws for Jews which encouraged hundreds of thousands to head to the reunited European state after the collapse of communism."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3558319/Israels-anxiety-as-Jews-prefer-Germany.html

May 8, 2011 at 7:40 p.m.
fairmon said...

A_in_Ala.

If you have your money in dollars you are indeed an idiot and no more economically intelligent than those southerners you consider lacking in capability. I promise you there are more millionaires and business success stories among those "good old gun owning bible toter's" than you could ever imagine. You obviously didn't venture very far from the Podunk college or university where you were employed. Did you visit Dallas, Houston, Miami, Atlanta? There are cases of extreme poverty and ignorance in certain areas of both the north and south but none worse or as dangerous as Harlem, Detroit, Pittsburgh plus others. Southerners call those from the north that migrate south hemorrhoids, they can be a pain in the ass when they come down and won't go back up. I am still wondering how anyone enticed you or duped you into moving from a country of enlightened aristocrats to any dark place south of the Mason Dixon.

Seriously, the dollar is not a good place to have money. I don't anticipate our government making the tough choices required to stop it's downward spiral or to keep the U.S. from defaulting. The Euro appears to be at risk also. Gold and the Swiss Franc are probably more reliable.

canarysong,

Happy mother's day, hope you get well soon :). You little liberal arts mama, you are important and necessary, but the fact is most of them do nothing to create wealth which only occurs when people manufacture, mine, farm or fish. If I remember correctly you manufacture art and sell it (artist)? Unless that is only a hobby and you give it away or sell it at cost creating no wealth it is, if you profit from it, transforming things of lesser value into something of greater value. Dr.s, lawyers, insurers, banks, politicians etc. although needed do not create wealth but skim from the wealth creators when they move other peoples wealth around.

May 8, 2011 at 7:44 p.m.
canarysong said...

Thank you harp, I appreciate that.

Actually, my business has started to recover from the economic slump and some of my pieces are selling for thousands of dollars each; I am thrilled!

I think that you are overlooking the fact that so many of those 'liberal arts' people contribute services that are needed and extremely beneficial to society: many teach; some do valuable research in biology and other sciences; some become therapists and social workers; and many work for businesses that DO manufacture needed goods. Some become diplomats that (sometimes) prevent wars; imagine the economic value of THAT! The modern world is extremely complex; there are many different ways that people can contribute something of value.

May 8, 2011 at 8:22 p.m.
canarysong said...

"There are cases of extreme poverty and ignorance in certain areas of both the north and south but none worse or as dangerous as Harlem, Detroit, Pittsburgh"

--- Well harp, I have nothing better to do today than to be a pain in the butt. You are my chosen victim now (evil grin and hand-rubbing)! .......

The 11 Most Dangerous Cities: These cities have the highest overall crime rates in the U.S.

  1. St. Louis
  2. Atlanta 484
  3. Birmingham Alabama (tie)
  4. Orlando (tie)
  5. Detroit
  6. Memphis
  7. Miami
  8. Baltimore
  9. Kansas City, Missouri
  10. Minneapolis (tie)
  11. Cleveland (tie)

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/02/16/the-11-most-dangerous-cities

Sorry, three of the top five are in the south, Pittsburgh and Harlem not even in the top eleven.

As far as the states go.....

No. 1: NEVADA

No. 2: NEW MEXICO

No. 3: LOUISIANA

No. 4: SOUTH CAROLINA

No. 5: TENNESSEE

No. 6: FLORIDA

No. 7: DELAWARE

No. 8: MARYLAND

No. 9: ARIZONA

No. 10: ARKANSAS

The gun toting south and west predominate the list.

Now I bet you REALLY hope that I get well soon! :-)

BTW, I agree with you that there are some wonderful cities in the south.

May 8, 2011 at 9:04 p.m.
canarysong said...

Sorry, those city numbers didn't print. They are in order with # 1 at the top.

The lists only address the 'dangerous' part of your statement. I'm not quite bored enough to check out the rest. You might be right about part of it.

May 8, 2011 at 9:15 p.m.
fairmon said...

Dangerous is not necessarily included in crime rates since drug use or distribution arrest are included. Check out the ratings for violent crimes such as murder, rape, man slaughter, felony assault. Try hanging around in Harlem any evening after dark, be sure your life insurance is paid up. Police admit they are not aware of all the deaths due to the high number of transients and homeless. I think Harlem is a district in NYC. A retired FBI friend that was over a region including locally told me the statistics and reporting were not dependable. He pointed out that you never see D.C. in the upper part of the list but most people in law enforcement know it is possibly the worst. I lived in D.C. for over a year and the west side was dangerous with daily news of something violent going down.

People and cities are most often what we think they are. I have had people tell me how unfriendly people were "up north" especially Philadelphia and Wilmington that I traveled to often. I didn't find that to be true at all. People were friendly, courteous, very helpful and cautioned me about areas to avoid.

Why are you always picking on me? :)* Lol...I have no doubt had I met a_in_a. I would probably gone and bought a bible to give to him and called him brother, invited him to my little church etc. Had he agreed to go I don't know what I would do since I don't go myself. I know some guys that can and do really turn it on if they think it bugs you.

Read my post again. I didn't say those non-producers weren't needed I only said they depend on the producers to sustain them. Dr.s are very important as are other health care workers that provide an essential service but they do not create wealth. Insurers protect or pay one party at the cost of the other but create no new wealth. Taking from one to make another wealthy is not wealth creation. Politicians are masters at it they talk about we have got to create jobs, fact: They can't unless they add to the government rolls. Only businesses can create jobs. Do you think the government should get in the art business and tell you how to run your business? Should they tell you what to create and where you can sell it and for how much? The NLRB just blocked Boeing from building a plant in S.C. because it is a right to work state, that is scary and way too much authority. Panicing and pandering politicians like we have in both parties are dangerous.

May 8, 2011 at 10:02 p.m.

canarysong said...

Please tell us, wwwtw, since you claim to know so much about this, what personal experience have you had living in Europe?


My time in Europe has been limited. I have friends from Europe who now live here, as well as American friends who live there or who have spent significant time there. I occasionally read European publications and authors. I study European history.

I also study African and Middle Eastern history. I have friends from Africa, the Middle East, and East Asia who now live here, as well as American friends who live in those places or who have spent significant time there. And I can tell you, Europeans are not anywhere as highly regarded as you regard yourselves. I guess that is true for most anywhere. Europe has made progress in its views on race and ethnicity, but the rot runs deep and wide, and when you scratch beneath the surface, it is never far from sight.

That said, I like Europe and wish I had the resources to spend more time traveling and studying there. America is obviously indebted to Europe (especially England, of course) for many of the institutions, ideas, and cultural values that we hold dear. But there was also a lot of bad that came with the good. In other words, our vices were not all born in the USA.

One obvious feature that distinguishes America from modern European nations is its construction as a land of immigrants. That is who we are. Some conservatives who post here would like to forget that. I think it is one of our primary strengths. Some of my liberal friends say they value our diversity, while at the same time they live in all-white enclaves and send their children to segregated schools. Friends who are transplants from the North sometimes confide that they are wary of engaging in community projects in largely minority neighborhoods. The work of racial reconciliation (“the healing of the nations” as it is called in a famous book which you despise, so I won’t mention the title) is not for the faint-hearted.

May 8, 2011 at 11:49 p.m.

It drives me insane that Southern whites are so unwilling to acknowledge, much less dismantle the institutional racism, hate, and discrimination that continues to bedevil us. I should also say again that the treatment you and AIA received from conservatives, especially from professing Christians, while living in the South is inexcusable. The South has made progress in its views on race and ethnicity, but it comes far too slowly. And I agree with you that we have serious crime problems.

I appreciate the fact that you set your less enlightened friends straight when they insist on making generalizations into absolutes. And I’m glad you have peace of mind where you are now in Colorado.

If you were to study more about Christian history (especially outside the European colonial context), you will know that the xenophobia you experienced here in the South is an aberration. As I have said before, movements don’t tend to spread as far as Christianity has spread (peacefully) or create the sort of artistic, literary and other cultural artifacts that we in the west have inherited unless there is something ultimately pluralistic, creative, and intelligent at its core. Some of the most intelligent people in China, India, Africa, and South America are converting to Christianity. (The same could be said of earlier periods in American and European history.) The West has a lot of work to do in order to catch up with the rest of the world. Until we do, they will see both Europe and America as you see the American South: arrogant and culturally insensitive.

May 8, 2011 at 11:54 p.m.
fairmon said...

Congress and the president keep abdicating their responsibility by giving way too much authority to some departments. The IRS, OSHA and others are essential but over time have been incrementally given authority beyond what most people can realize or believe.

May 9, 2011 at midnight
dude_abides said...

Interesting to read one paragraph from w_w_w_t_w's last post, then click on his avatar, then read another paragraph, then click on his avatar, and repeat until thoroughly confused.

May 9, 2011 at 10:17 a.m.
canarysong said...

wwwtw,

"Europeans are not anywhere as highly regarded as you regard yourselves."

--- Well, see.... We've finally found something that that Americans and Europeans have in common :-)

BTW, both legally and in terms of how I view myself, I am first and foremost an American. That is part of the reason why I feel free to voice criticism where I feel it is warranted.

May 9, 2011 at 11:35 a.m.
fairmon said...

canarysong,

Feeling better? Do artist have a union thay can belong to that can negotiate with buyers and require them to pay more? If you ship a painting do you have to charge sales tax?

May 9, 2011 at 4:19 p.m.
canarysong said...

Hi harp, sweet of you to check on me. I still feel like dog doodie.

Unions? I don't think so. I am not a painter, but my art is sold in galleries. Prices depend, to some degree, on the quality, location, and reputation of the gallery, and of course on whether the artists themselves have developed a reputation and a following. I almost never sell directly to customers and don't have a website, primarily because of the tax, shipping, and additional bookkeeping hassles (numbers are not my forte!). Sometimes I do custom designs for customers through the galleries. I know a number of artists that travel the high-end art festival circuit, but that is expensive and grueling. I'm willing to forgo a bit of profit in order to maintain my quality of life. Right now my low key approach seems to be working, and I still have free time to enjoy the outdoors.

May 9, 2011 at 5:46 p.m.
fairmon said...

canary,

I was being somewhat facetious when asking if artist had a union based on some pro-union comments you had made before. If you have a cold I am told one can visit a Dr. and a cold will clear up in two weeks or one can not go to a Dr. and it will take 14 days. Take two aspirin and call me tomorrow.

May 9, 2011 at 7:13 p.m.
fairmon said...

I am not inti-union but I have seen several businesses destroyed by radical and unreasonable unions. The crafts, electrical, carpenters and others are responsible and well run with the transient nature of the work lending itself to being union. It is a shame that public employees even have the need when reasonable legislation could prevent it. Public employees compensation and work rules should mirror the mid point of the upper bracket in the employee supply area in which they are employed. Unfunded and very liberal early pensions will bankrupt many cities and states at some point over the next 30 years.

May 9, 2011 at 7:19 p.m.
RufusTFirefly said...

There's an old adage among intelligent people:

"A statement without support merits a denial without reason."

But I think Thomas Paine, author of Common Sense said it best:

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead."

275 comments. And many have renounced the use of reason.

May 9, 2011 at 11:06 p.m.

canarysong said... wwwtw,

"Europeans are not anywhere as highly regarded as you regard yourselves."

--- Well, see.... We've finally found something that that Americans and Europeans have in common :-)

BTW, both legally and in terms of how I view myself, I am first and foremost an American. That is part of the reason why I feel free to voice criticism where I feel it is warranted.

canary, you are not an american. You are a krout

May 9, 2011 at 11:18 p.m.
canarysong said...

Tsk, tsk, name-calling isn't nice, but if you're going to do it maybe you should learn how to spell the bad words properly.

May 9, 2011 at 11:59 p.m.
fairmon said...

brainerdrebel67;

I am disappointed. You are normally objective and express your opinion and support or opposition to a comment of another persons view on a matter very well. I do believe once a person becomes an American citizen they are an American with all the rights that brings. Your use of a slang term aimed at canarysong which can only be intended to hurt just isn't appropriate. Disagree, tell someone including me they are full of crap but please don't do that. She can drive me crazy with her bleeding heart liberalism without any consideration of the economic catastrophe we are facing but who knows, she may realize it once the stuff hits the fan and her dollar will buy about one tenth what it will today, if we are lucky it might buy that much.

May 10, 2011 at 12:05 a.m.
chet123 said...

seamonkey ... i see you are an expert in black man...well i guess i have to get up early in the morning to fool all wise seamonkey...the last time i looked i was black...but guess i need to seek your wisdom on that subject...LOl LOL

May 10, 2011 at 8:14 a.m.
chet123 said...

take a deep breath Indian....tell your hate blogger where you get your propaganda(wasted of time writing that boogey man coming to get you BS..people are laughing at you)..Obama will be re-elcted 2012...and you along with the hate bloggers will have to bow and kiss his feet...and said OBAMA oh GREAT ONE I KISS YOUR FEET!!!!!!

May 10, 2011 at 8:20 a.m.
chet123 said...

my fellow pollsters.... you have to be really in pain and depressed to waste that much time writing lies..she writes as if it her ideas...PLAGIARIZING every word from hate groups,,,,Indian get her info from hate bloggers...if you observe republican...99% of Republican information come from hate bloggers....that why they cant take a challenge fron democrats...its so funny...they have to refer to their hate bloggers and FOX(fix news)...this is so funny LOL LOL

May 10, 2011 at 8:36 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

indian, how about giving us a few linkies so we can see these sources for ourselves?

May 10, 2011 at 6:35 p.m.

Indian wrote

"What I wrote was not my words, it was from articles that was on the Internet that I copied and pasted to the comment"

Thinking has never been your strong side, you can only repeat hate speeches. congratulations... impeaching Obama.. you are a ridiculous creature

May 12, 2011 at 2:46 a.m.
chet123 said...

indian...well excuse me...you respond like a little girl..i have nothing good to say about me!...????.. What love got to do with it?????

You get your info from INTERNET! LOL LOL ....thats your problem dumb butt(no truth detector,have your info verified)...it help when you actually know something about history and economics,and ,finance,political science...use a variety of sources...not the hater information..you have so much hate you ignore truth....you seek out hater bloggs...you live in a fish bowl.....have it ever occurred to you maybe your internet sources are WRONG!

May 12, 2011 at 9:23 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

hmmmm...tried all three specifically for one item: Obama's birth certificate grassfire: not willing to reveal their finances, and uses a professional public relations firm. No search capability on their very limited site, and nothing listed about Obama's birth certificate.

Newsmax: search reveals nothing about the birth certificate being bogus

WorldNetDaily ("WingNutDaily") one by Farah, who has been shown to be completely off the charts in being a crank.

Not exactly good sources there, indian

May 12, 2011 at 7 p.m.
chet123 said...

INDIAN....why do you seek out sources that wont tell the truth the links you provided are bank-roll by the rich and greedy...is this the stuff that make you crazy...dont you understand this is not credible materials....these are bonifide haters

1).Grass fire Nation--this group made claim and said they had proof Presedent Obama was born in Kenya

2). World Net Dailey-- this group claim to be Christian(dont practice the teaching of CHRIST they dont beleive in it just wear the lable...they are very dangerous...talk about prophecy ..a really nut-wing hate group

3). NewsMax-- this group is bank-rolled by billionare Richard Mellon Scaife(Mellons one of the richest family in the world)

Only a tip of the Iceberg...complain about tax..but they bank-roll billions of dollars in propaganda media and internet hate sites

In the 90's they lied on Bill Clinton..claim clinton had a black child..they claim clinton had kill vincent Foster...and many other lies that they never retracted ..they just throw mud and hope something stick

If this is your gospel...then accept your action...you have sold your soul

May 12, 2011 at 8:24 p.m.

"In the 90's they lied on Bill Clinton..claim clinton had a black child.."

Chet123......lol....i heard that story myself back in the mid 1990's on a greyhound bus coming here to TN from a southern guy who said it was true but the people here in the south pretty much keep it on the down_low.

Hmm.........have we entered the ^^^ Twlight Zone ^^^

May 14, 2011 at 3 p.m.

"1).Grass fire Nation--this group made claim and said they had proof Presedent Obama was born in Kenya."

Chet123.......this one will be debated until the world ends but if anybody would know this fact it is the CIA because he was a employee of there's in the early 1980's as a international arms dealer selling arms to middle east terrorist groups and gathering intelligence on them and there operations.

Trip huh......*pulses for a moment as one of the lighthouse lights flickers *

May 14, 2011 at 3:06 p.m.

"3). NewsMax-- this group is bank-rolled by billionare Richard Mellon Scaife(Mellons one of the richest family in the world)"

Chet123.......it is my belief that the conservative internet site NewsMax is funded by Sarah Palin & Ann Coulter.

May 14, 2011 at 3:10 p.m.

BigRidgePatriot said... 5 straight days, one subject.

bennett gets paid for what?

May 7, 2011 at 4:33 p.m

LOL.....to keep you pissed off enough to keep posting your comments on here and not making a point. That is what he gets paid for sir.

May 14, 2011 at 3:16 p.m.
chet123 said...

Indian...you made 3 points...which make by as much sense as you do....i will just punch holes in your flawed statements...

1). Obama ran on Health Care Issue and he was elected in a landside he have majority approval

2). Obama have not said anything about taking your guns(man you get that information from your hate bloggers)stop lying!

3). Obama did not declare war on america labors..it was RONALD REAGAN...Reagan set the mood for corporate to recruit labor and hire immigration worker to bring cheap labor in the country(free market...the government is the problem...so Reagan got out the way) you are asking Obama who only been President 2years to clean not only george w. bush mess but also...the mess your hero Ronald Reagan left us over 20years ago...

ps are you into pain???? you seem to like me thumping your head

May 14, 2011 at 8 p.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

and by the way.... ..................... 4 more years!

May 15, 2011 at 1:15 p.m.
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