published Thursday, October 13th, 2011

Fast and Furious

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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alprova said...

"Fast and Furious," began as a Phoenix gun sting beginning in 2009, instituted by the former acting Director of the ATF, Kenneth Melson, and a U.S. Attorney, Dennis K. Burke, of Arizona. The plan was to monitor and to catch small-time straw purchasers passing firearms to middlemen, who then trafficked the guns to Mexico.

The plan was to stop the guns from making their way into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. It failed miserably.

Two AK-47s recovered at the scene of the fatal shooting of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry last December were bought from the stockpile of weapons released as a result of Operation Fast and Furious. That wasn't supposed to happen.

As part of a campaign to reinstate an expired assault weapons ban, both of the governments of Mexico and the United States have pushed the myth that 90% of weapons confiscated by Mexican authorities originate in the U.S.

Bill McMahon, ATF deputy assistant director, testified in May that of 100,000 weapons recovered by Mexican authorities, only 18,000 were made, sold or imported from the U.S. And of those 18,000, just 7,900 came from sales by licensed gun dealers. That's 8%, not 90%.

The outrage over the tactics used, which resulted in more than 2,000 illegally purchased firearms hitting the streets, has led to the reassignment of the ATF’s former acting director and 11 other top brass within the ATF, and the resignation of U.S. attorney Dennis Burke in Arizona on August 30th, who was THE person overseeing the operation.

Representative Darrell Issa (R-Ca.), chairman of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, is after Eric Holder over his statement to Congress in May, that he had only learned of Fast and Furious just weeks prior to his testimony. Issa maintains that Holder was told about it as early as July 2010.

In a weekly report that was sent to Holder on July 5, 2010, from Michael F. Walther, the director of the National Drug Intelligence Center. A paragraph notes a Phoenix investigation called "Operation Fast and the Furious." The report said that the Sinaloa Cartel was suspected of providing $1 million for the purchase of guns.

The document did not state that the ATF was in effect watching gun purchases happen without immediately trying to intervene, the issue at the heart of the controversy.

(to be cont.)

October 13, 2011 at 1:31 a.m.
alprova said...

(Cont.)

Justice Department spokeswoman Tracy Schmaler said Holder became aware of the questionable tactics of allowing the guns to walk, or move without ATF interdiction, only when ATF agents first flagged them publicly in March. Holder then asked the agency’s inspector general to conduct an investigation, which is ongoing.

The question that has Representative Issa's boxers in a bunch was, "When did you first know about the program officially, I believe, called Fast and Furious?"

Holder answered: "I’m not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks."

Schmaler  said Holder, during his testimony in May, was referring to when he first learned of the operation’s tactics. She added that of the documents Holder had seen earlier, "not a single one of these reports referenced the controversial tactics that allowed guns to cross the border, and in fact, one example provided to Congress consisted of a single sentence referencing a Phoenix-based operation, not an ATF operation."

Should Eric Holder been more attentive to the details of the operation? Perhaps. Did he fail to do his job? No. Did he lie during his testimony in May? No. Why would he? He had given orders to have an Arizona based operation investigated in response to ATF field Agents raising concerns about the ATF's possible participation in the operation in March of this year.

The details of the operation, and proof of ATF involvement came to light in August. Darrell Issa is hellbent on a typical Republican witch hunt, and one that will go nowhere.

October 13, 2011 at 1:32 a.m.
OllieH said...

Operation Fast and Furious was a misguided idea from the get go, but the point of the cartoon is still valid. The NRA has nothing but blame for the source of the guns when it's a Justice Department sting gone bad, but they have nothing excuses for the suppliers of the weapons in the other 30,000 gun deaths a year.

Guns do kill, whether they come from Eric Holder or the gun shop down the street.

October 13, 2011 at 1:33 a.m.
ArnoldZiffel said...

HERE COMES ALPROVA AND BENNETT TO THE RESCUE!! What a couple of Dem party apologists!! LOL! If this scandal would've happened under W you'd both be out with torches and pitchforks!! RAGING DOUBLE STANDARD! SOLYNDRA AND FAST AND FURIOUS, par for the course for BO. Bennett, you suck up!!

October 13, 2011 at 2:16 a.m.
ArnoldZiffel said...

HEY, EVERYBODY, Alprova is a Dem Party Operative!! Operation save BO is underway!!

October 13, 2011 at 2:18 a.m.
alprova said...

What exactly is a Dem Party operative?

And as far as I know, the President is totally blameless in all that surrounds Fast and Furious. But you mark my word; Before this is all said and done, it will be blamed on him anyway.

What I want to know is why the acting head of ATF, Kenneth Melson, who was reassigned to another position within the ATF, still has a job at all?

Dennis K. Burke, the U.S. Attorney in Arizona who spearheaded the operation is the man who should be held responsible, along with Melson, who authorized the ATF to participate and who explicitly prevented field agents from intervening in disallowing those guns to enter into Mexico.

Blaming Eric Holder, who heads the Justice Department, is rather pointless in my opinion.

It's very much like blaming your local police department for failing to prevent neighborhood kids from filling your trees with toilet paper on Halloween.

October 13, 2011 at 2:51 a.m.
ArnoldZiffel said...

Bang those gums, bang em till they bleed, man! Funny how the buck never stops at BO's desk, but a pin could drop on peoria and it would've been W's fault!! Eric Holder has as much interest in justice as BO has in the common working man. Saving BO's scrawny behind is Bennett's mission. Holder should resign. You Dems know darn well you would demand it of a Repub if this happened on their watch!

October 13, 2011 at 5:32 a.m.
patriot1 said...

The "just us" department needs to answer what and when they knew about this. The families of the agents and civilians who lost their lives deserve no less.

October 13, 2011 at 6:25 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Out of the entire Fast & Furious nightmare the dink wants to satire the NRA and gun ownership?

What an idiot!

If the DemocRat party told Bennett his back pocket was a toilet...

October 13, 2011 at 6:50 a.m.
MTJohn said...

OllieH said...The NRA has nothing but blame for the source of the guns when it's a Justice Department sting gone bad, but they have nothing excuses for the suppliers of the weapons in the other 30,000 gun deaths a year.

Follow the money! The NRA lobbies on behalf of the gun manufacturers and they "legally" sell a lot of weapons that supply illegal markets. Do you really think the NRA wants the federal government to enforce existing gun laws? I doubt it.

October 13, 2011 at 7:18 a.m.
beezer1970 said...

Just to be clear here...Eric Holder and the Justice department sells guns to Mexican drug cartels, knowing the guns will be used to kill people...and this is the fault of the NRA and 2nd ammendment defenders? Ok I get it now...

October 13, 2011 at 8:22 a.m.
alprova said...

Patriot1 wrote: "The "just us" department needs to answer what and when they knew about this."

Eric Holder answered those questions already. Because he failed to expand on an answer to one of them, he is being targeted.

Please try to focus on the fact that it was the head of the ATF who involved the ATF into Fast and Furious, not Eric Holder. He did his job and assigned investigation into the program when first notified about it.

"The families of the agents and civilians who lost their lives deserve no less."

There have been no U.S. civilian deaths attributed to any guns released as a result of Fast & Furious.

We are a country that invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, destroying both of them effectively, killing no less than 100,000 civilians, not to mention the 6,230 of our own military, but here you are up in arms over the deaths of two agents who's lives were on the line every day.

Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed on December 14, 2010.

U.S. Immigration & Customs Enforcement Special Agent Jaime Zapata was killed on February 15, 2011.

The plug was pulled on the multi-agency program officially, following Brian Terry's death last December, but the damage had been done. The guns were already out there.

ATF Agents began filing complaints about ATF's involvement in the program starting in January of this year. ATF Fast and Furious whistleblower Agent Vince Cefalu was served with termination papers on June 20, 2011.

Holder assigned investigation into the operation, which had been reported in the vaguest of terms, in March of this year. Even if it is true to any degree that he knew enough about the operation to determine that something was amiss nine months ago, as Darrell Issa is claiming, both agents were already dead.

The DEA and the FBI have more involvement in Fast & Furious than the ATF does, and Darrell Issa admitted that on camera, this past Sunday on "Fox News Sunday."

"We want to know what and when they knew it," he said. "But more importantly, we have to understand -- at what level of the authorization really come? It wasn't an ATF operation. They were part of that. It was a joint operation in which DEA knew more than ATF."

Holder sent a letter to congressional investigators this past Friday, stating that he does not read every document addressed to him and that they are reviewed by members of his staff. Holder went on to say that none of the early reports mentioned the controversial tactics used in Fast and Furious.

Holder is being used as a scapegoat.

October 13, 2011 at 8:46 a.m.
alprova said...

beezer1970 ignorantly wrote: "Just to be clear here...Eric Holder and the Justice department sells guns to Mexican drug cartels, knowing the guns will be used to kill people...and this is the fault of the NRA and 2nd ammendment defenders? Ok I get it now..."

No, you're not clear. In fact, you need to go back to school to learn how to read. Your comprehension levels are in dire need of an update.

Eric Holder heads the Justice Department, which is currently investigating the DEA and the ATF Departments involvement in the operation known as "Fast & Furious."

Eric Holder did not sell any guns to anyone.

October 13, 2011 at 8:54 a.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "Out of the entire Fast & Furious nightmare the dink wants to satire the NRA and gun ownership?"

Well, the hypocrisy coming from Republicans is so thick, that you can cut it with a knife, don't you think?

Even I know that the criminals would have obtained guns from some other source, even if those used in Fast & Furious had not been available to them. It's not as if the gun stores were empty of firearms, now were they?

"What an idiot!"

Yes you are and a creep to boot.

October 13, 2011 at 9:01 a.m.
tderng said...

First of all,if this had happened during a republican administration,the Attorney General would have had the class to step down and if he didn't then he would have been forced out.Second,Alprova,I don't think I have ever read about a gun of any kind becoming mobile and seeking out a victim on its own.So guns don't kill,people do using guns,knives,cars,their own hands,sticks and stones.

October 13, 2011 at 9:18 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Buzz Lightyear to the rescue!

If you are not advocating for Holder's resignation (or prosecution) and demanding investigations to identify how high this went up in the Obama administration you are either uninformed or you have a pro Obama or a gun control agenda and are cherry picking your information.

This action was criminal. We cannot be satisfied with resignation of scape goats. We need to know who the decision makers were at the highest levels and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law.

October 13, 2011 at 9:23 a.m.
tderng said...

pot and kettle

October 13, 2011 at 9:24 a.m.
patriot1 said...

alpro.....the "just us" department is investigating the ATF...that is true but the ATF is a part of the "just us" department. It is the responsibility of Congress to provide oversight and hold hearings to find out what happened. It appears Holder has not been truthful in his testimony and that is precisely why he is being subjected to more scrutiny. Given Holder's track record even back to the Clinton Adminstration pardons (remember those?) this is not surprising.

October 13, 2011 at 9:27 a.m.
beezer1970 said...

Sorry Alpo, I'll repharse...Eric Holder knew about Fast & Furious, did nothing about it, lied to Congress about knowing about it (perjury? contempt of Congress?), and that is the fault of the NRA and 2nd ammendment defenders. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

October 13, 2011 at 9:30 a.m.
acerigger said...

Why would you advocate for Holder's resignation (or prosecution) before the investigation is even started,much less completed?

October 13, 2011 at 9:41 a.m.
limric said...

Right on Clay.

I was wondering when you'd broach this subject.

As I am approaching deadline, I don't have much time to address the false facts that will surely abound as the day winds on.

But the short takes are these,

Thank you for the news reports Alprova. Interesting but only accurate in the fashion of the main stream media. You know how to read between the lines. You know how to research.

OllieH, you are completely off base. Your anti-gun vitriol is based irrational fear and outright falsehoods. You are echoing the same control dogma shouted by a plethora of gun control advocacy groups.

Tderng, You contend that a if this had happened during a republican administration,the Attorney General would have had the class to step down. No he wouldn't and you know it. C'mon!

BRP, Maybe CLay's inclusion of the window sticker wasn't a slap at the NRA. Maybe it's recognition that the NRA actually stayed on top of what is most assuredly a criminal endeavor, and not just a sting (oops tee hee)gone bad.

October 13, 2011 at 9:50 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I was hearing about this operation back in April, months before Holder claims he heard about it. If Holder did not know about the operation he is incompetent and should resign. If he knew about it and lied to Congress he should be prosecuted for that and for any involvement that led to the release of guns into the hands of violent criminals.

Follow the money. Democrats get money from the gun control lobby. There clearly was no serious effort to trace the guns. The only plausible explaination for the way this was conducted and the scale of the operation is that the Justice Department and the ATF were trying to manufacture evidence that the US was a significant source of illegal guns for the drug cartels in Mexico. They have been making that baseless claim for years.

October 13, 2011 at 9:59 a.m.
limric said...

Alprova, Quote: "Eric Holder did not sell any guns to anyone."

Ever hear of 'plausible deniabilty'?

Dang, I gotta get busy. Talk to you guys later.

October 13, 2011 at 10:02 a.m.
Livn4life said...

Always taking Shots at the NRA...now THERE'S a Liberal mantra.

October 13, 2011 at 10:05 a.m.
rolando said...

The plan was to stop the guns from making their way into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. It failed miserably.

As with most all alpo's postings, this one was loaded with bullscata...and DNC generated apologia.

The Obama's defective plan was always to trace the guns directly to the cartels themselves -- through GPS emitters. They never intended on stopping them before they were carried across the border. Unfortunately, but typically, the ATF/DoJ inept idiots used batteries too small or too few to support the load...and they lost GPS contact with the weapons.

alpo confuses the defective Democrat gun-running plan in which at least 2,000 weapons, mostly full automatic military style, with Bush's similar and successful operation in which all guns were immediately recovered.

And the NRA deals in truth; but they were only a small cog in the machine exposing the truth of the illegal gun-running operation from the Department of Justice, Eric Holder, and undoubtedly, Dear Leader, [who will immediately throw yet another dupe under the bus].

Bennett simply cannot resist any anti-gun, anti-NRA jab he can get, no matter how trivial or ephemeral.

October 13, 2011 at 10:09 a.m.
riverman said...

Dear Eric,

It's not the crime but the cover-up that always gets you. Sincerely, Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton and Bruce Pearl

October 13, 2011 at 10:13 a.m.
rolando said...

Eric Holder did not sell any guns to anyone.

Perhaps not...he "merely" authorized the sale; undoubtedly with his boss' full knowledge and consent...something that will never be proven or, if proven, will be forgiven [there is precedence via Clinton].

October 13, 2011 at 10:17 a.m.
dlogic said...

At least the people responsible have been disciplined. Bush would have given them the Presidential Medal of Freedom. How many guns were purchased in Iraq by our enemies with that $10 billion of cash
on pallets that Bush sent over for bribes?

October 13, 2011 at 11:38 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

dlogic said... “At least the people responsible have been disciplined.”

No, the people who were offered up as scape goats have been disciplined. The whole point of the investigation is to find out how far up the cesspool goes and discover who else needs to go and/or be prosecuted.

October 13, 2011 at 11:54 a.m.

Dlogic, typical, just typical. Whenever Obama is criticized, for good reason, the leftists and Democrats whine about Bush. As if that somehow aids your futile defense of Obama and lets him off of the hook. You're evaders and finger pointers, just like our current president is.

Many on this forum are engaging in one desperate attempt after another to salvage the Obama administration and defend him. It's dillusional and sad.

Give it up! He's not worth it. He's in it for the perks and the fame.

October 13, 2011 at 12:13 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

OllieH said: "The NRA has nothing but blame for the source of the guns when it's a Justice Department sting gone bad, but they have nothing excuses for the suppliers of the weapons in the other 30,000 gun deaths a year."

Indeed, I guess the NRA just isn't thinking about the mixed messages they're sending.

October 13, 2011 at 2:15 p.m.
tderng said...

mountainlaurel...these gun deaths include According to the CDC in 2006, Last up to date numbers, 30,896 total, of which, 642 accidental, 16,883 were Suicide, 12,791 were Homicide, 220 were Undetermined and 360 by Legal intervention.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_related_deaths_in_America_2010#ixzz1agwLJNRo

October 13, 2011 at 3:27 p.m.

This is a perfect example of the scapegoat practices that have shielded the politicians for years. When this kind of subject arises all you hear about is this goes all the way to the top. Thats re-donkulous, this isn't even news worthy. I'm sadden that 2 human beings were killed. Unfortunately they're jobs were high risk jobs. Not to mention the fact that if it wasn't guns from this botched operation it would have been guns from somewhere else. Guns do serve a purpose, they also cause death. We will never know who to blame for this and several other scenarios. If this happened on a republicans watch we would most likely not here about it at all. Its going to be a long election process. Republicans are ball deep in lobbyists/millionaires and democrats can't convince our nation of idiots that the country is failing. sigh..

October 13, 2011 at 6:03 p.m.
fairmon said...

Why the 'toon and all the speculation when the investigation is not complete and the facts not known and may never be known. It is no secret and no investigation needed to know we are losing the war on drugs and the cartels are ruling large portions of Mexico. Our next war may well be closer to home. Confiscate all the money in U.S. dollars the cartels have bundled on pallets in storage buildings to make a good dent it the debt.

Deaths and crime would likely drop if everyone (male and female) were to be issued a gun and trained in gun safety plus how and when to use it even if they put it up and never touch it. One thing too many people fail to understand is if you pull a use it.

October 13, 2011 at 6:06 p.m.
alprova said...

tderng wrote: ",Alprova,I don't think I have ever read about a gun of any kind becoming mobile and seeking out a victim on its own.So guns don't kill,people do using guns,knives,cars,their own hands,sticks and stones."

We're in full agreement. What gave you any reason to think I thought otherwise?

October 13, 2011 at 7:05 p.m.
alprova said...

Patriot1 wrote: "alpro.....the "just us" department is investigating the ATF...that is true but the ATF is a part of the "just us" department."

Also true, as of 2003, however they operate as two distinct departments, with two distinct bodies of management. Holder was in no position to know what the acting head of the ATF was involved in from day to day.

"It is the responsibility of Congress to provide oversight and hold hearings to find out what happened."

They are targeting the wrong person. They should have the former acting head of the ATF along with the former U.S. Attorney who spearheaded the operation and who was supposed to have full authority in overseeing the operations.

Holder had nothing at all to do with it, until ATF agents began raising cain, and Holder responded by starting an investigation into the operation which is still ongoing.

"It appears Holder has not been truthful in his testimony and that is precisely why he is being subjected to more scrutiny."

Holder has addressed those charges more than once already. Issa is on a witch hunt, that will result in nothing.

October 13, 2011 at 7:23 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

For those who would deny Holder, Odumdum, and/or Billary bear any responsibility for the deaths of two federal agents and hundreds of Mexican citizens (so far) I give you this. In Odumdum's own words...

"What we can say, is that there are individuals in the Iranian(American) government who were aware of this plot. And, had it not been for the outstanding intelligence work of our UHHH, intelligence UHHH officials this plot could have gone forward and resulted in UHHH not only in the death of the Saudi Ambasador, but also UHHH innocent civilians her in the U.S. UHHH We believe that UHHH ...if, even if at the highest levels UHHH there was not detailed operational knowledge, there has to be accountability with respect to anybody in the Iranian government engaging in this kind of activity. UHHH And, so, UHHH we will continue the investigation, and we will continue to put forth all the facts that we have available to us, but the important thing is for Iran to answer the international community UHHH why anybody in their government is engaging in these kinds of activities....."

Oh, hell, I can't stand anymore of his stilted, drug addled delivery, watch it for yourself.

The dipstick laid out precisely why he, as well as Holder and likely Billary have ALOT to answer for.

For those rambling about gun deaths, tell it to Odumdum, he is the titular head of a criminal organization placing thousands of weapons in the hands of the most dangerous people in N. America.

October 13, 2011 at 7:35 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

I wonder how long it will take for State department employee Kevin O'Reilly to end up dead in his new assignment in Iraq? Issa might want to have his butt hauled back to the C.O.N.U.S. before he is permanently silenced.

October 13, 2011 at 7:42 p.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "I was hearing about this operation back in April, months before Holder claims he heard about it."

Really? The first references to it online date only back to June.

*"If Holder did not know about the operation he is incompetent and should resign. If he knew about it and lied to Congress he should be prosecuted for that and for any involvement that led to the release of guns into the hands of violent criminals."

He has testified that he assigned the inspector general in MARCH to start investigating complaints about ATF's involvement in a gun tracing program that originated in Arizona, that began rolling in as early as January of this year.

That's on record. Darrell Issa is hung up on a response to a question that has been explained repeatedly. His knowledge of the tactics being used in Fast & Furious to trace those guns were only made aware to him mere weeks prior to his testimony in May.

"Follow the money. Democrats get money from the gun control lobby."

Oh please. That's the most laughable thing you have offered to date. The gun lobby contributes to Republicans almost exclusively.

"There clearly was no serious effort to trace the guns."

That was the responsibility of U.S. Attorney, Dennis K. Burke, of Arizona, who was in total charge of the operation from start to finish.

"The only plausible explaination for the way this was conducted and the scale of the operation is that the Justice Department and the ATF were trying to manufacture evidence that the US was a significant source of illegal guns for the drug cartels in Mexico. They have been making that baseless claim for years."

They are still targeting the wrong man. Acting Director of the ATF, Kenneth Melson, who authorized ATF's involvement in the operation, and who specifically denied field agents to seize guns known to be poised to cross the border, is the man who should be in the hot seat.

October 13, 2011 at 7:44 p.m.
alprova said...

Rlando weighed in with: "As with most all alpo's postings, this one was loaded with bullscata...and DNC generated apologia."

No Sir. I deal in facts.

"The Obama's defective plan was always to trace the guns directly to the cartels themselves -- through GPS emitters. They never intended on stopping them before they were carried across the border."

Please cite any references that will back up any claim that the guns were GPS equipped, and if you will, please cite any references that President Obama had any involvement in Fast & Furious, at all.

"Unfortunately, but typically, the ATF/DoJ inept idiots used batteries too small or too few to support the load...and they lost GPS contact with the weapons."

Please cite your sources of information.

"alpo confuses the defective Democrat gun-running plan in which at least 2,000 weapons, mostly full automatic military style, with Bush's similar and successful operation in which all guns were immediately recovered."

Sorry, Rolando, but "Operation Wide Receiver" was also a failure as well and guns slipped across the border during his administration too.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/10/atf-probes-gun-trafficking-to-mexico-during-bush-years/1

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44788900/ns/politics-more_politics/t/ap-sources-bush-era-probe-involved-guns-walking/#.Tpd57Zvpy7s

http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/ATF-BushEraProbe/2011/10/04/id/413270

October 13, 2011 at 7:58 p.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "Perhaps not...he "merely" authorized the sale; undoubtedly with his boss' full knowledge and consent...something that will never be proven or, if proven, will be forgiven [there is precedence via Clinton]."

You're really grasping at straws. The buck stopped at the ATF, then being headed by Acting Director, Kenneth Melson.

October 13, 2011 at 8:02 p.m.
alprova said...

BBND wrote: "Many on this forum are engaging in one desperate attempt after another to salvage the Obama administration and defend him. It's dillusional and sad."

We shall see come next November. 'Till then...

October 13, 2011 at 8:04 p.m.
timbo said...

Most organizations take on the personality and traits of their leader. Obama has no experience and is incompetent. It is no surprise that Holder is just like him. Although Holder didn't plan this debackle, he set the tone in his organization for it to occur.

A good manager, when he found out about it, should have had the wisdom to see it's severity and make sure the culprits were fired. and let congress know the facts. Another indication of his incompetence and basic dishonesty.

As others have said, it's not the act that gets you, it is the cover-up.

October 13, 2011 at 8:07 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"Really? The first references to it online date only back to June."

What's this?http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker Notice the dateline. Your Google-fu is weak.

""Follow the money. Democrats get money from the gun control lobby."" "The gun lobby contributes to Republicans almost exclusively." If you are going to be a smart a$$, reading is fundamental.

"That was the responsibility of U.S. Attorney, Dennis K. Burke, of Arizona, who was in total charge of the operation from start to finish." And who answers to one A.G. Eric Holder.

Al, buddy, you're making yourself a fool attempting to spin this one. Holder is going down, and it couldn't happen to a better guy.

October 13, 2011 at 8:07 p.m.
rick1 said...

You have to wonder what Scooter Libby is thinking. He was indicted and convicted because his recollection of when a meeting occurred was different from others. He didn't lie about a gunrunning operation that led to the deaths of two American agents and at least 200 Mexicans.

This link is an excellent article on Fast and Furious and it is important you read about Inspector General Cynthia Schnedar. There is serious corrpution in this entire operation.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/10/fast_and_furious_in_a_rotten_nutshell.html

October 13, 2011 at 8:31 p.m.
dlogic said...

Do you guys know they pay Clay according to the number of comments he gets?

October 13, 2011 at 9:42 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Alprova said: "Sorry, Rolando, but "Operation Wide Receiver" was also a failure as well and guns slipped across the border during his administration too."

Alprova, I really admired your patience and diligence. Thank-you. As for "Operation Wide Receiver," one does wonder why we didn't hear any hoopla and outrage from our politicians about Attorney General Alberto Gonzales' project. Interesting how things change.

Ultimately, what I find unsettling is that the U.S. continues to allow people to sell these high capacity weapons in the first place. I simply cannot think of any rational reason why someone would need a weapon with 30 rounds of ammunition. If nothing else, we should at have a law to prevent these known terrorist types from purchasing such weapons. I know we've tried this in the past, but maybe it's a good time to try it again:

“A few weeks ago, House Republicans killed a proposal to prevent those on the FBI’s terrorist watch list from buying firearms. It’s the same party that’s supported the gun-show loophole for years.

When it comes to organizations that appreciate the Republican approach most, the National Rifle Association certainly comes to mind, but Chris Brown flags a different group that seems pleased.

In a video released [Friday] Al Qaeda spokesman Adam Gadahn encourages terrorists to use American gun shows to arm themselves for potential Mumbai-style attacks. Gadahn’s video laid out a new tactic for Al Qaeda to continue their murderous terrorist agenda:

“America is absolutely awash with easily obtainable firearms. You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?” At gun shows buyers can purchase guns from private sellers without passing a background check.

Because the discourse allows no meaningful discussion of restricting gun ownership, this news will probably spark exactly zero debate on Capitol Hill."

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_06/when_al_qaeda_endorses_the_gop030063.php

October 13, 2011 at 10:51 p.m.
alprova said...

Scotty wrote:

I previously stated: "Really? The first references to it online date only back to June."

Scotty's response: "What's this?http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-national/a-journalist-s-guide-to-project-gunwalker"

"Notice the dateline. Your Google-fu is weak."

I stand corrected. Thank you, although it needs to be noted that "Fast & Furious" was not used to describe the operation in that article.

"Follow the money. Democrats get money from the gun control lobby." "The gun lobby contributes to Republicans almost exclusively."

"If you are going to be a smart a$$, reading is fundamental."

Well, you got me again. Thank you for bringing my failure to read his entire wording to my attention.

"Al, buddy, you're making yourself a fool attempting to spin this one. Holder is going down, and it couldn't happen to a better guy."

Holder is going nowhere and neither is Issa's witch hunt.

October 13, 2011 at 11:32 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

mtnlrl,

This,

"You can go down to a gun show at the local convention center and come away with a fully automatic assault rifle, without a background check, and most likely without having to show an identification card. So what are you waiting for?”"

is an absolute lie. One will receive a minimum twenty year sentence in federal prison for trafficking full-auto weapons without the BATF background checks and the very expensive tax stamp that must remain with the weapon at all times and must be renewed upon transfer to another individual. The paperwork takes months to complete, and the weapons, due to the fact that only those manufactured before 1986 are allowed to be transferred among private citizens, are extremely expensive. I've been to ALOT of gun shows and I've seen very few full-auto weapons for sale. Those that I have seen were distinctly of the "DO NOT TOUCH" variety. That said, if you want one, have the monetary wherewithal and can withstand the international arms traffickers at the BATF/DOJ digging around in your personal life, there are a few dealers around the country who can get you a nice piece. http://www.autoweapons.com/products/products.html

Now I understand that you are merely quoting a quote of an idiot, but you really should do some basic research on the topic before you start advocating the gross infringement of other folks' basic rights.

As a side note: There will be no further federal infringement of our rights to own whatever firearms we want. That ship is headed the other way and the politicians know it. Any serious efforts to further curtail our rights will result in a massive bloodletting the likes of which have not been seen in this country in generations. We will keep our firearms to discourage tyranny and to dismember it if need be, just as the founders intended.

You can take that to the bank. III

October 14, 2011 at 12:17 a.m.
fairmon said...

Not being aware of something that is your responsibility is a weak excuse. However, I am not sure what anyone expects the man to do. He has done everything except stand up and say I was asleep at the wheel, I did not demonstrate competency. He did indicate people that should have made sure he knew didn't which is possible. The investigation is not complete so conclusions regarding what did he know when are speculation. The way the country is going we may all need and be willing to use an AK-47.

October 14, 2011 at 3:58 a.m.
fairmon said...

Does anyone really know what the plan was? U.S. officers have no authority in Mexico even if they had successfully tracked the weapons. The police in Mexico are corrupt and afraid to confront the cartels so what was the poorly executed plan? It would be wise to learn the networks the Mexican cartels have in most large cities and some not so large in the U.S. It is a frightening reality either party in our government fails to acknowledge.

October 14, 2011 at 4:05 a.m.
rick1 said...

Harp:"Does anyone really know what the plan was?"

This link will answer your question.

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2011/07/13/operation_fast_and_furious_designed_to_promote_gun_control

October 14, 2011 at 5:50 a.m.
rolando said...

I simply cannot think of any rational reason why someone would need a weapon with 30 rounds of ammunition.

We don't need a reason, "rational" or otherwise, mtgirl. We have the Second Amendment and that is all the reason in the world.

We use that to bring our government to heel, as needed.

October 14, 2011 at 8:29 a.m.
rolando said...

Do your own research, alpo. Ask yourself, under Bush's plan how many guns were "illegally" sold and how many lost. Then compare it with The Obama's F&F "illegal" and incompetent plan.

You only deal in "facts"....yeah, right. That from someone who still believes in the tooth fairy, no doubt.

And you're still a windbag and a "poor player

That struts and frets his hour upon the stage

And then is heard no more: [yours] is a tale

Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,

Signifying nothing." [Apologies to The Bard.]

October 14, 2011 at 8:36 a.m.
fairmon said...

mntl...

I never would have guessed you would be one to attend gun shows. Why did the ATF folks not attend those shows you mention and track those guns instead of enticing law abiding gun shops to violate their own principles and laws? I hope the charges against Holder are not right and some rogue agents did something stupid and are punished for it. It would be unsettling to find we had someone in a cabinet position involved.

October 14, 2011 at 8:38 a.m.
rolando said...

Even more unsettling would be to find we had a Chief Executive involved.

And the public thought Nixon was bad. At least he had the courtesy, the style, and the class to resign.

October 14, 2011 at 8:44 a.m.
fairmon said...

Can anyone not understand why the AG of Mexico is so upset and demanding an explanation from the U.S. as to why guns were sold into Mexico without informing the Mexican government and without their consent? Is it too much of a stretch to think we may assist them in transporting drugs to the U.S. so we can track or lose track of them? Damn a bunch of party politics and justification based on party loyalty, something about this doesn't smell right. Keep alienating every country we deal with and we will all have to be prepared to defend ourselves.

Saying Bush did something similar is like trying to determine who has the worse BO. Hello both parties are stinking things up so bad the stench is terrible. It is like Solyndra and other screw ups by Bush and crew and now Obama and crew. Gingrich(R) and Clinton(D) balanced the budget and grew the economy. Pelosi(D) and Bush(R) destroyed it. Bahner(R) and Obama(D) are no better than Bush and Pelosi.

October 14, 2011 at 8:59 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

ScottyM said: “Now I understand that you are merely quoting a quote of an idiot”

More specifically, the article was quoting a member of Al Qaeda who was encouraging terrorists to use American gun shows to arm themselves.

ScottyM said: Is an absolute lie. One will receive a minimum twenty year sentence in federal prison for trafficking full-auto weapons without the BATF background checks etc . . . you really should do some basic research on the topic before you start advocating the gross infringement of other folks' basic rights.

Sounds like the Al Queda spokesperson identified in the TPM article knows more about American gun show loopholes than you do – guess he did more research:

“Only seven out of 50 states have completely closed the gun show loophole. Ten other states have taken limited steps. The Brady Law requires criminal background checks of gun buyers at federally licensed gun dealers, but unlicensed private sellers are not required to do background checks. This loophole causes particular problems at gun shows, which give these unlicensed sellers a venue, advertising and customers. In most states convicted felons, domestic violence abusers, and those who are dangerously mentally ill can walk into any gun show and buy weapons from unlicensed sellers, who operate week-to-week with no established place of business, with no questions asked.”

http://www.bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1196

October 14, 2011 at 9:21 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

The Justice Department is not stonewalling the investigation because there is nothing to hide. Culpability goes very high in the Justice Department and the Whitehouse.

Does this Sergeant Shultz defense really work for you lefties, "I know nothING, I see nothING..."?

October 14, 2011 at 10:01 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando pathetically responded with: "Do your own research, alpo."

I did. And as usual, you have failed to back up claims that you have posted and have been challenged to prove. Big surprise.

"Ask yourself, under Bush's plan how many guns were "illegally" sold and how many lost. Then compare it with The Obama's F&F "illegal" and incompetent plan."

Neither President was involved in either operation. Operation Wide Receiver lost about as many guns as did Fast & Furious. And in case you were not aware of the fact, sting operations have been ruled very legal by the Supreme Court.

"You only deal in "facts"....yeah, right. That from someone who still believes in the tooth fairy, no doubt."

Aw now don't go getting mad because I easily disproved another of your many lies again. You're the one who made the astounding claim that "Bush's similar and successful operation in which all guns were immediately recovered."

And you tell me to do my own research. Seems to me that you need to so a little of your own every now and then, before you post and make a fool out of yourself.

October 14, 2011 at 10:17 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “I never would have guessed you would be one to attend gun shows.”

Very funny, Harp3339. Needless to say, your initial instinct was right. What gave me away?

Harp3339 said: “I hope the charges against Holder are not right and some rogue agents did something stupid and are punished for it. It would be unsettling to find we had someone in a cabinet position involved.”

Well, I can see you’re on a roll this morning, Harp3339. Personally, I’m beginning to wonder about Arizona. It’s been one bizarre happening after another in that State. I wonder if the craziness in Arizona is caused by something in the water?

Harp3339 said: “Saying Bush did something similar is like trying to determine who has the worse BO.”

Politics aside, I actually found this bit information quite helpful. It shows the ATF in Arizona has been in a serious rut for a long time when it comes to qualified personnel. They obviously need agents with more experience and broader skills - ASAP.

October 14, 2011 at 10:41 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

alprova said... "I did (my own research)."

You have to look in places other than Move On and the Daily Kos you silly children's toy.

Those of us that keep in touch with better sources have been reading about this outrage for the better part of a year. Please excuse us if we don't think it is our job to go hunt up all of that material for you.

October 14, 2011 at 11:53 a.m.
SavartiTN said...

I see this cartoon differently. I see Curry Todd driving Fast and Furious down the road thinking that his drinking, driving, and gun toting is A OK. As did many supporters who posted on this site after Todd's DUI arrest and commented about why was it ok for Holder to do what he did? Or that the gun had nothing to do with the issue. Clearly, it did. The Holder issue and the Todd issue are two separate issues.

Good job, Clay.

October 14, 2011 at 11:58 a.m.
carlB said...

alprova, thanks for all of the information and the balanced opinions. It is a "shame" that some people are not interested in hearing the facts.

October 14, 2011 at 12:13 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Rolando said: "We don't need a reason, "rational" or otherwise, mtgirl. We have the Second Amendment and that is all the reason in the world. We use that to bring our government to heel, as needed."

MtnGirl is another TFP poster, Rolando. You may want to note this for the future.

As for your comment, I will say once again that I cannot think of any rational reason why a regular law abiding citizen would need a weapon with 30 rounds of ammunition.

Aside from official U.S. military use, the only people who actually use these types of high capacity weapons are criminals, narcotic cartels, terrorists, and individuals who are mentally ill. And, clearly, these groups use them in ways that threaten national security, law and order, and the general welfare of innocent people, which is unfair to us all.

As such, I believe these high capacity weapons should be legally banned. Clearly, it would be in the best interest of our national security, law and order, and the general welfare of regular citizens to ban these weapons. It's the responsible thing to do.

October 14, 2011 at 12:22 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

alprova said... "Really? The first references to it online date only back to June."

Retard, before the feds labeled it Fast & Furious it was being called several other names by reporters. Since your head has been stuck up the butt of the Kos reporters you are going to have to get a little more serious about your research.

Hell, it is mentioned in early April posts IN MY PROFILE!

October 14, 2011 at 12:26 p.m.
lumpy said...

Since when do criminals care if something is "legally banned"? Banning means nothing to all the dark elements that you listed in your post mtl. Law abiding citizens are not the problem, nor are the guns they own, even ones that have 30 rounds of ammunition. It's not reasonable to do it. Clamping down on private citizens will not stop violence by criminals. Law abiding citizens are not the problem. Treating law abiding citizens like criminals is flat out stupid. That liberal logic is getting old. You just don't trust law abiding citizens. Astounding. Criminals will be armed, law or no law. What's wrong with you people?

If every law abiding citizen owned a gun with 30 rounds of amo, I guarantee you home invasions, assaults and robberies would stop cold.

October 14, 2011 at 12:39 p.m.
lumpy said...

It's always the same line, just the particulars change.

Why should anyone have that much_? Why should anyone have that many_? Whether it's guns, types of cars, money, houses, food, or whatever. The left is always attempting to impose limitations on or control law abiding citizen.

It's so old at this point.

October 14, 2011 at 1:06 p.m.
Sailorman said...

Mountainlaurel

"Sounds like the Al Queda spokesperson identified in the TPM article knows more about American gun show loopholes than you do – guess he did more research:"

You appear to be confusing two different elements. Scotty referred specifically to fully automatic weapons. He is quite correct. You have a much better chance of winning the lottery than buying a full auto at a gun show. You might be able to get one from one of our drug running friends, but, if you're caught with it without all the requiste ATF paperwork and tax payments, you're jailhouse bound.

As for the "gun show loophole" - there is no such thing. It just a happy soundbite coined by those numbskulls at Brady. Dealers at gunshows do background checks. Two individuals who happen to agree to an an exchange after meeting at a gunshow don't. I can sell a gun to my neighbor with no government interference. Something you would no doubt find problematic but that's the way it is.

Just where do you think all those full-autos, grenades, and rocket launchers come from come from? I can tell where they don't come from - a U.S. firearms store.

As for 30 rounds mags, I like them because I do a lot of target shooting and I'm lazy. Loading mags is a pain

The responsible thing to do would be address the criminal and not the tool.

October 14, 2011 at 1:47 p.m.
onetinsoldier said...

This comment is to pay Clay.

October 14, 2011 at 2:23 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Sailorman said: "As for the "gun show loophole" - there is no such thing. It just a happy soundbite coined by those numbskulls at Brady. Dealers at gunshows do background checks."

Sorry, Sailorman, but I’m more inclined to support victims like Colin Goddard who was shot multiple times at Virginia Tech on April 16, 2007. He has become a strong advocate for closing these gun show loopholes. Apparently, he was able to buy a small arsenal of assault weapons and handguns with cash at gun shows without a background check – he also was able to document the transactions with film footage:

"It is time - actually, way past time - for America to close the loophole that allows people who can't legally buy a gun from a gun dealer to literally buy one in the back corner of the same convention center," said Colin Goddard, 24. "What happened to me at Virginia Tech on April 16, 2007 was horrible. But I’m determined to do something about it and turn this negative experience into a positive one."

"Teaming up with in-state residents to ensure that the buyers didn’t break the law, Goddard captured footage of shamefully easy gun purchases. ("There’s no tax! There’s no paperwork! That’s worth something!" hawked one seller.) The buyers didn’t even have to show a driver’s license or any ID. After each visit, Goddard and his companions turned the guns over to local police.”

http://www.bradycampaign.org/media/press/view/1196

October 14, 2011 at 3:51 p.m.
mtngrl said...

As for the gun show loophole, how about an example a little closer to home. Don't you remember the murder of Sgt. Tim Chapin here? An escaped convict was able to trade stolen weapons for an assault rifle right here in town:

"Jesse and the unnamed girlfriend went to the R.K. Shows gun show on March 27 at the Chattanooga National Guard Armory. After talking with someone at the show, Jesse called Ray and told him to "bring the family collection" -- 10 to 12 of the firearms police say Jesse stole in the Colorado pawnshop robbery. Jesse traded three of those weapons for an M-4 assault rifle."

link -> http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/20...

October 14, 2011 at 4:25 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

mtngrl,

That is not a gun sale loop hole! That is the illegal sale of a gun that is not legal to own as a private citizen in the US. As far as I know, you can only own an M4 in the US if you are a manufacturer or the government. The M4 is a modern fully automatic rifle currently in use by the US military.

The news media often refer to the semi-automatic version of the AK47 as an AK47 but the difference is huge. The AK is fully automatic but the versions you find in the gun safe of many legal firearms owners are semiautomatic and functionally have more in common with a common deer rifle than the fully automatic assault rifle variant. Mind you, due to the strange NFA rules, it is legal to own certain true-blue AK47s but the few of us who are privileged enough to own that finite group of rifles would never consider selling them to some street thug. They are generally worth 5 figures since the NFA has made legal private ownership so rare in this country.

It is more likely that the report is confusing an AR-15 that is dressed up to look like an M4 as an M4. The press does this all the time, M16 verses AR15, AK47 verses AKS47 or AK47S, M4 verses AR15. The AR15, like the AKS, is a semi automatic rifle, much like many "deer" rifles.

October 14, 2011 at 6:06 p.m.
MTJohn said...

BigRidgePatriot said...That is not a gun sale loop hole! That is the illegal sale of a gun that is not legal to own as a private citizen in the US.

Perhaps. But, if it had been a violation of an enforceable law, the feds might not have need a sting operation to catch the perps.

October 14, 2011 at 6:28 p.m.
terrybham said...

For an area of the country that hates any form of gun control the comments on this page are a bit hypocritical. Don't you people think that we should all have guns, any age, any number? According to the NRA all gun control is bad and un-American, so stock up.

October 14, 2011 at 6:40 p.m.
fairmon said...

How would those advocating closing buyer loop holes avoid making the black market more lucrative? Passing a law is easy, enforcing it is an entirely different matter. Remember prohibition of alcohol and the well known and wealthy mobsters it spawned? The same is now happening with drugs, gambling and prostitution, major sources of illegal wealth. The same would happen with guns. Why is it many do gooders fail to realize you cannot legislate morals. Admit some will partake of those vices whether legal or not and fewer may if the public is educated and the vices regulated.

It sounds far out so I don't know why some of the confiscate from a few for the many hasn't suggested it. Issue every citizen of age a weapon and require gun use and safety training. You don't like guns put it in a safe and be sure you can produce it if audited. If criminals knew anyone may be armed and capable of using a gun there would, I believe, be less violent crimes. Severe penalties should exist for illegal ownership of assault type weapon and serious penalties for illegally carrying a gun.

October 14, 2011 at 8:04 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

It is way too easy to walk into a gun show, walk up to one of the sleazy characters along the back wall with guns under their coats, make a deal, and walk out with an unregistered gun. That, I believe, is the "gun show loop hole" that Mountain Laurel is referring to and with good reason. If they make laws that say certain people shouldn't own a gun then those people should not be able to buy one and allowing the sales to go on in a gun show should be stopped.

October 14, 2011 at 9:22 p.m.
steve_smith said...

Is the liberal slogan, "Guns don't kill if trafficked by Eric Holder?"

Jim Bob at the flea market shouldn't be able to sell a gun, right? Bobby Jim at the gun show shouldn't be able to sell a gun either. Only the holy government can sell guns. I get it. If the government sells guns to drug gangs that's hunky dory. If Bobby Jim or Jim Bob happens to sell a gun to a felon,even though it's already illegal to do so, well hey, we got to close this "loophole." Sure. Perfect sense.

October 14, 2011 at 9:40 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

"It is way too easy to walk into a gun show, walk up to one of the sleazy characters along the back wall with guns under their coats, make a deal, and walk out with an unregistered gun."

There exists no "registration" scheme for any firearms other than those covered under the NFA (i.e. full-auto, short barrel rifles, etc. and no one is selling those at a gun show). There is no "registration" to avoid. The only person on the entire planet who has a list of the firearms I own is me and that list will never be typed up or written down for anyone to see.

Ya'll are so worked up about folks who shouldn't have firearms getting there hands on them, but you're sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating LA LA LA when it is shown that the very government agency tasked to do exactly that, is instead facilitating the transfer of firearms to the most dangerous group of people in this hemisphere. If you really cared about keeping firearms out of the hands of dangerous folks, instead of just limiting the rights of law abiding folks, you would be screaming your head off at the current Executive Administration for their incompetency (at a minimum), and/or complicity/involvement (most likely).

October 14, 2011 at 10:16 p.m.
SCOTTYM said...

Ruh Roh Raggy,

Apparently POTUS saw something about F&F on the news sometime before a March interview(yeah, right), and said that Holder had been very clear about not knowing. I guess ole Eric the Racist forgot about that conversation with POTUS about F&F when he was telling Congress in May that he'd just heard about F&F a couple of weeks before.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/13/obama_spoke_about_fast__furious_before_holder_claimed_he_knew.html

These guys have got to be the dumbest couple of boobs ever to hold such high offices. Good job voters!

October 14, 2011 at 10:27 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

MtnGirl said: "As for the gun show loophole, how about an example a little closer to home. Don't you remember the murder of Sgt. Tim Chapin here."

Thanks, MtnGirl. I definitely recall this tragic incident. It was truly a heartbreaking situation. But I did not realize the weapon involved had actually been tracked to a gun show purchase.

October 14, 2011 at 10:37 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

SavartiTN said: "It is way too easy to walk into a gun show, walk up to one of the sleazy characters along the back wall with guns under their coats, make a deal, and walk out with an unregistered gun. That, I believe, is the "gun show loop hole" that Mountain Laurel is referring to and with good reason."

You're right, SavartiTN. As I understand it, the only people who are actually required to have a license and required to perform background checks are those who are engaged in interstate firearm commerce and those who sell firearms as their primary business. People who sell firearms “occasionally” within their own state are not required to conduct background checks or maintain records of their gun sales. Although they are not supposed to sell to anyone who has been convicted of a felony, they are not required to actually check this out to see if the person buying the weapon has or has not been convicted of a felony.

October 14, 2011 at 10:43 p.m.
fairmon said...

SavartiTN said.... If they make laws that say certain people shouldn't own a gun then those people should not be able to buy one and allowing the sales to go on in a gun show should be stopped.

True. Perhaps a good position to take but how do you implement it? Do you think those willing to sell guns to anyone to make a quick dollar would not still be dealing and making no questions ask sells if gun shows were banned or if they were more regulated? How would the black market be controlled? The wrong approach will only drive people to sell guns like drugs are sold in some clandestine way for bigger profits. The criminal element, probably the same people that do big deals on drugs, would become more wealthy. Keeping criminals from owning guns is not as simple as passing a new law even if it prohibits gun shows. The wrong approach, like a lot of government intervention, may have the unintended consequences of law abiding, responsible citizens wanting to protect themselves and their property having more difficulty obtaining a gun and make them more vulnerable to the criminals that will still have guns.

Are people willing to confiscate all fire arms and ban guns except for law enforcement personnel and the military? Think about the implications and risk of that. Are people willing to shut down the manufacturing or importing of guns for anyone except those ordered by the government for the military or law enforcement personnel?

I don't profess to know the answer but I recognize it is not a simple issue. Statistics indicate it is rare that a cirminal act against another person involves those with a carry permit and training.

October 14, 2011 at 11:55 p.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

It's all Republican vendetta. Get rid of the President at all cost. Party first/Country down the line somewhere...............

October 15, 2011 at 9:45 a.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

As House Oversight Committee Chairman Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA) continues to try to pin the flawed "gun walking" tactic employed in Operation Fast and Furious on the Obama administration, it's becoming increasingly clear that problems with ATF's Phoenix division date back at least into the Bush era.

Read More

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/10/emails_bush-era_embassy_prosecutors_office_approved_atf_gun_walking_tactic.php?ref=fpb

October 15, 2011 at 1:30 p.m.

I was hearing about this operation back in April, months before Holder claims he heard about it. If Holder did not know about the operation he is incompetent and should resign. If he knew about it and lied to Congress he should be prosecuted for that and for any involvement that led to the release of guns into the hands of violent criminals. mrBRPatree-ut

thanky thanky mrP and mrScooty! bestis trooist bloogs on her taday!! misturs didya reemembur way beck wen yall were tokin abowt GUNS en mexchico? an dos lyin meediah gys wuz sayin deys wer awl amerikan GUNS! an deese Demons her wit mrBeenut wuz sayin eevul Amerikans eevul BushMan!! an 2 yurs pass now we wuz sayin NO! NO! mexchico dun bot Ruskie an Cheenise GUNS! Dey culled usn Krazzy lyin fuuls!

Now looky wut hapind-ole alprivy up thar isa tokin likey HE dun kreeayted tha noos! Gubbermint selld GUNS! ta tha droog Kartells an awl! now looky hoos a krazzy kat! won thinga i noteeced her--the demons mayke up tha noos evry day to soot thersefs an changey tha trooth awl da tim! why tha is sooo funni hee hee!

October 17, 2011 at 6:32 p.m.
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