published Sunday, September 4th, 2011

The Cookout

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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AndrewLohr said...

D.C., Nashville, and City Hall rain on our cookout with regulations, taxes, and the seduction of programs that pay for not working. Our current President wants the storm to get worse. I suppose he also wants more jobs, but what he's doing is sending more and more rain: regulations, taxes, and programs. We need to replace him with someone such as Michelle Bachmann or Ron Paul, who will seriously cut the rain and let us cook. After all, Jesus is a libertarian with carpentry experience.

September 4, 2011 at 12:49 a.m.
nucanuck said...

Andrew, Obama may be the second coming who is being shunned by you and others that have lost sight of the Christian principles that Jesus would embrace. Have you noticed how Obama turns the other cheek when slapped by you and the neo-Christian hordes?

Jesus would neither be a libertarian nor a partisan. Think about it...than quit inserting religion into your every utterance...spare us your false piety.

September 4, 2011 at 1:10 a.m.
memphisexile said...

Finding a job is hard. I just got one after many months of searching. I am over qualified, it pays less than my experience and education would suggest and I am VERY glad to have it. So this labor day I will be thankful for my job and my wife's job.

Mr. Lohr, I know you think deregulation, cutting social programs and cutting taxes will stimulate the economy and create jobs, but I think you are wrong. The thing is, most Americans want their Social Security and Medicare. After all, they have paid for it, but unfortunately it appears the money has been spent when it should have been saved and we are currently a bit short. Those are the most costly programs and they will not be cut. Nor should they. We are the richest, most advanced country in history and no citizen of America should ever be without healthcare. Reagan Voodoo Economics have been proven not to work, that is why Bush I did not get reelected. Apparently when rich people get tax breaks they don't invest to provide jobs for the unemployed, they just keep the extra money and save it.

Deregulation is one of the things got us in this current crisis, so I don't think that is the answer. Personally, I think the banks that played fast and loose with their client's money should have much more regulation. Apparently without it, they make risky bets and sink the economy.

I agree with you that there should be tax reform. I think we should eliminate all deductions and credits and then adjust the rates accordingly. I also thing rich corporations shouldn't get any kind of break, their profits will be o.k. Given Jesus's penchant for helping others, I think he would be for universal health care so no one would be sick, he would be for SS so those who worked their whole lives would have a way to sustain themselves when they are old and I think he would expect the rich to pay more taxes because they can afford it. I would suspect that Jesus would probably be firmly in the socialist camp.

Then again, I suspect someone will disagree with me and point out some passage in a book written by some guys that has been subject to many interpretations in many different languages over the course of a few thousand years and claim I am wrong. I may be. But claiming you know what Jesus would have thought is just as silly.

September 4, 2011 at 2:27 a.m.
alprova said...

Andrew's comments prove just how out of touch some people are in this country. 9.1% of this nation has no job. The vast majority of those folks included in that figure are there for no reason of their own doing.

To sit there and to type that people are "paid for not working," is a slap in their faces. Unemployment Compensation in all cases represents about 2/3 of what people made during the year prior to them being laid off. It's purposely set at that rate to encourage people to seek viable employment.

Not many people can exist for very long and feed their families, existing solely on Unemployment Compensation. Jobs are going to have to be created by the private sector and all attempts to institute tax breaks for those who do create jobs, have failed. The root cause for the lack of jobs being created is a lack of sales. Until that changes, the jobs outlook is bleak.

Tax rates have not risen, yet, under the Obama Administration. The only taxes that have risen since Obama has been in office, are those on tobacco related products, implemented to fund paying for medical costs for children in all of our 50 states. That is a tax that is easy to avoid by simply avoiding the purchase of tobacco products. Nobody needs tobacco.

I remind people that this country was at it's most prosperous for most of it's citizens during the years that the top tax rates exceeded 50%. Reagan cut the top tax rates in this nation when he assumed office and things have been steadily going downhill ever since and the national debt has been rising.

The Government is experiencing a lack of revenue due to high unemployment rates, caused mostly by a dampened economy. Just as most people do at times of income interruption, money is borrowed to pay bills that keep coming in.

Blaming President Obama for the unemployment rates that the country is experiencing is nothing but a cheap shot. Blaming any President is pointless. The President of this nation does not have the power to create jobs in any other sector, other than to work for the Government.

It took several years to get where we are now, and it will take several years to overcome the things that led this nation, and the world for that matter, to the depressed state that we are all experiencing. Abject greed by insiders, eager to make easy and the most money possible, is what caused all of this.

The Government took a first step this past week in going after a group of banks responsible for selling tainted mortgage products to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I applaud them for doing so. Where it will all end up is anyone's guess.

September 4, 2011 at 2:48 a.m.
anniebelle said...

Poor ole' pitiful andrew -- all he's got in the world are his one-liners and a book - written by man, I might add, for their own devious purposes at the time it was written. How do you think your ancestors got 'saved'? Mostly under the threat of death -- my way or the gallows or burn them at the stake type conversion -- throughout the ages. Evolve already, Andrew!

September 4, 2011 at 4:36 a.m.
rolando said...

I must be missing it; where has Clay hidden his derogatory GOP label? The rain cloud, maybe? The rain itself? The rising flood waters?

It has simply got to be there somewhere. Clay simply cannot draw anything at all without somehow blaming the GOP, the TEA Party, Bush, or Cheney.


With one quite notable exception, the usual suspects have posted their drivel above and attack the single ray of sunlight with a rain-dampened flinging of a pile of BullsH!t.

Not a word from them about the cartoon...just their repetitive anti-Christian attacks. Simply because Christians were told to spread His word...and they don't like that.

September 4, 2011 at 5:57 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Andrew - God has created each of us in God's image. God calls us to see the face of Jesus in the face of our neighbor - especially our neighbor who is different from us, less fortunate than us and/or otherwise in need of our love. You won't see the face of Jesus by looking in the mirror. You won't find God's saving grace in the King James Version of Atlas Shrugged.

September 4, 2011 at 6:55 a.m.
woody said...

I would have loved to attend "The Cookout", however, it is supposed to rain, and I do have to work, as it turns out.

Imagine that..having to labor on Labor Day..what a great feeling!..Woody

September 4, 2011 at 7:28 a.m.
GreenKepi said...

rolando...I see it!!! Look closely...see!...Bush's reflection is in the water!!!!

September 4, 2011 at 7:55 a.m.
limric said...

I saw them tearing a building down,

A gang of men in a busy town;

With a ho-heave-ho and a lusty yell,

They swung a beam and a sidewall fell.

I asked the foreman, "Are these men skilled

As the men you would hire if you had to build?"

He laughed and said, "No indeed!

Just cheap labor is all I need.

I can easily wreck in a decade or two

What builders have taken a century to do."

Ask yourself on this labor day,

Which of these roles have you tried to play?

Are you a builder who works with care

Measuring life with the rule and square,

Or are you a wrecker who walks the town,

Content with the tearing of labor down.

September 4, 2011 at 8:29 a.m.

It's funny that Democrats blame George W. Bush for everything bad on earth while he was president, and even after he's gone, yet President Obama is blameless for any of our problems? If I recall correctly George W.Bush took all kinds of heat when our unemployment rate was at 5% or something like that.

Hey, Andrew, you go, boy!! You keep posting and don't let them push you around. There's a lot of anger directed at Christians on this site.

September 4, 2011 at 8:30 a.m.
hambone said...

I don't know about the GOP, but I see Weiners!

September 4, 2011 at 8:32 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Andrew & blondie, y'all are about a dumbass.

September 4, 2011 at 9:33 a.m.
rolando said...

Still can't see it, GreenKepi. But isn't that Chaney's name on the charcoal bag?

Actually, and poking fun aside, this isn't a bad cartoon. The rain, from whatever cause, has pretty much spoiled the jobs market.

I understand MickeyDee's is still hiring. That's about the only kind of free market jobs we have anymore -- other than VW and Ford.

September 4, 2011 at 10:16 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Blondie - I'm a Christian. The only anger directed at me on this site seems to come from folks like yourself and Andrew and both of you profess to also be Christian.

And, fwiw, you are correct. We can't put all of the blame for our current mess on George Bush. Likewise, we cannot put all of the blame on Obama. Peel enough layers of this onion away, and you will discover that the fault really lies with the electorate. We are a selfish, self-centered, greedy and dishonest lot. Thinking like a Christian, if we want real solutions, the place to begin would be to stop confessing the sins of others and repent of our own shortcomings.

September 4, 2011 at 10:17 a.m.
timbo said...

Ok......here is the problem with jobs . let's use a local example . VW. state, county, and city spent 250,000,000 dollars cash and another 350,000,000 in incentives to get roughly 4000 jobs. There are approximately 3000 small businesses in our area. this would be a approximately 200,000 dollars per business. If they averaged hiring 5 people per business that would create 15,000 local jobs . All the politicians and all of the pundits and all of the economist say that small business is the only way to create the jobs we need . If this is true , why do local, state, and federal governments getting huge amounts of money too large corporations like the banks , car companies , etc. while doing nothing and even putting up opsticles for small business .
This is not a republican or democrat, it is collective stupidity . 70 percent of businesses are small businesses. Until that sector starts hiring absolutely nothing will happen . Spending money on boondoggles like volkswagen is not the answer. It it is the problem . Why should I or other small businesses pay taxe to idize.

September 4, 2011 at 10:51 a.m.
timbo said...

the finish to my post .....Why should I and other small businesses pay taxes to subsidize large corporations ? Also, why do government hacks have the right to pick the winners and losers ?

September 4, 2011 at 11:12 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Notice that 4 of the first 4 leftist posts attack Andrew rather than just pitching in their two cents? This is how the left operates. It is not a competition of ideas. It is a constant barrage of personal attacks, especially from the Claybots, libtards, whatever.

You people are pathetic.

Not that Andrew needs my help, his is the only post worth reading out of the first five.

September 4, 2011 at 12:09 p.m.

MTJohn, I've never mentioned anything about my faith on here. You seem very eager to label me as such. Interesting. Pretty quick on the trigger, huh? Dude_abides, it seems that you have a license to call anyone that doesn't agree with you names. Why is that? I say it's becuase Democrats are allowed to say and do what they want to anyone who doesn't agree with them. Ever heard of Bill Mahr? You'd get along with him. What's next with you, jokes about how you would take me? Why not just go all out and say what you really think? After all I'm just just a stupid, ignorant piece of ass to you. I suspect any woman who is not a Democrat gets what she deserves, huh? Democrats are proving to be the home of the sexist pigs.

September 4, 2011 at 12:32 p.m.

Evolve to what, Anniebelle? Tell us what we should all strive for? Please, enlighten me. What views should we all have? How should we all believe? How do we know when we've evolved? Will you tell us? How can we earn your stamp of approval? You, Mountainlaurel, and Mtgrl have evolved. How can a poor, southern, dumb, blonde, who is not a Democrat, get to where you are now?

September 4, 2011 at 1:05 p.m.
ArnoldZiffel said...

Blondebutnotdumb, will you MARRY ME!?

September 4, 2011 at 1:08 p.m.
alprova said...

bbnd wrote: " How can a poor, southern, dumb, blonde, who is not a Democrat, get to where you are now?"

Well, you could start by knocking off that 100 pound chip that you think makes you superior to others, that exists on your shoulder.

September 4, 2011 at 1:57 p.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "Notice that 4 of the first 4 leftist posts attack Andrew rather than just pitching in their two cents?"

Pointing out that the man is out of touch with reality is not an attack. Correcting his misinformation is not an attack.

"This is how the left operates. It is not a competition of ideas. It is a constant barrage of personal attacks, especially from the Claybots, libtards, whatever."

I hate to point out the obvious, but you Sir, are guilty several times a week of attacking people on personal level.

"You people are pathetic."

Look in the mirror, creep.

"Not that Andrew needs my help, his is the only post worth reading out of the first five."

Andrew is a big boy. He does not need your help. As for the rest of your comment, there's no accounting for taste. You'd eat a bulls**t sandwich and down it with a glass of iced tea, if it were served to you by someone as biased as you are.

September 4, 2011 at 2:06 p.m.
anniebelle said...

Not a chance in the world BBND -- you're too far down the ladder. Maybe your next life, you'll develop a brain.

September 4, 2011 at 2:23 p.m.
timbo said...

Yea, Big Ridge. Your your mama wears army boots. ......you guys are arguing like children . Why don't you address the subject of the cartoon which is jobs . I think mine is the only post that actually addresses Bennett's premise.

September 4, 2011 at 2:35 p.m.
alprova said...

bbnd wrote:"There's a lot of anger directed at Christians on this site."

Your statement is flawed. Any anger demonstrated towards "Christians on this site," are those expressions of exasperation towards those who lay claim of being a Christian, but their own chosen words prove themselves to be anything but.

September 4, 2011 at 2:38 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

I believe economist Dean Baker summarizes the job crisis rather well:

“The reason for so much unemployment is not a secret; we don't have enough demand in the economy. The housing bubble had been driving the economy until it collapsed beginning in 2007. When the bubble burst, the millions of jobs created by the bubble-driven construction boom disappeared. The plunge in house prices also brought an end to the consumption boom, which had been driven by housing wealth. Together, the drop in construction and consumption led to a falloff in annual demand of more than $1.2 trillion, almost 10% of the economy.

The private sector will not replace this demand any time soon . . . Businesses will expand and hire people when they see that there is more demand for their products. The federal government is the only force with the ability to create enough demand to get the economy back on its feet right now. The stimulus package Congress enacted was a step in the right direction, but it was nowhere near large enough. When you cut through the hype, the size of the annual stimulus in 2009 and 2010 was about $300 billion a year. Roughly half of this was offset by cutbacks at the state and local level. Translation: We were trying to fill a $1.2 trillion hole with a net stimulus from the government sector of $150 billion.

While research shows the stimulus was actually more effective than predicted, we need much more to get the unemployment rate down to normal levels. Unfortunately, the politicians in Washington are too scared to say the simple truth: We need more spending to get the economy back on its feet, not less.

This is why the public has already lost the budget debate. The elites who dominate the national political agenda have entirely written jobs out of the picture. . . .

. . . On the one side we may end up with status quo budgets, which will give us unemployment rates above 6 percent for the next five years, according to both Obama and the Congressional Budget Office. Or we get a Republican budget with large cuts that will slow growth further and lead to even higher rates of unemployment. . .

. . . The only way the public wins in this sort of budget standoff is if we force both parties to stop playing games and start taking measures to boost the economy and create jobs."

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/spending-cuts-wont-help-25-million

September 4, 2011 at 5:38 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

alprova said... "You'd eat a bullst sandwich and down it with a glass of iced tea, if it were served to you by someone as biased as you are"

Pretty funny alprova, Can you comprehend the funny part?

September 4, 2011 at 5:46 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

timbo said... "Why don't you address the subject of the cartoon which is jobs"

OK Big Daddy! I found the generic "Jobs" thing kind of boring, so boring that the dynamics of the discussion are more interesting. Didn't Bennett hit on jobs yesterday? You go ahead and throw pearls before swine if you like.

September 4, 2011 at 5:57 p.m.
timbo said...

big ridge, I think you're right. After mountainrlaure'ls quoting upset you guys have never heard of who is obviously another keynesian imbecile. I sure he went to Haaavard. The school where the idiocracy is "educated." Keynesian economics is fiscal suicide. I So, BR if that's the best they got it's time to make it a night.

September 4, 2011 at 6:14 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

nucanuck said...

Andrew, Obama may be the second coming who is being shunned by you and others that have lost sight of the Christian principles that Jesus would embrace.

I don't shun him--I shun the effects of his policies, e.g. joblessness above 8%.

Have you noticed how Obama turns the other cheek when slapped by you and the neo-Christian hordes?

Well, "wants the storm to get worse," though clarified by context (wants more regulations, taxes and programs, all of which destroy jobs), was worded as if I ascribed him bad motives, which I don't (though we all have evil impulses, and none of us always refuse them.) And he can be nice, but would you ascribe wonderful Christian love to Mr "I won" who despised bitter people who cling to guns and religion? (Compared to Paul Krugman and Maureen Dowd, our President is Emily Post herself. How nasty these liberals can be. I'm sure you're always nice.)

Jesus would neither be a libertarian nor a partisan. Think about it...than quit inserting religion into your every utterance...spare us your false piety.

The very hairs of your head are all numbered. God has a finger in every pie. Quit inserting unGodliness. God can sort out what of my piety He likes and what not. Search "Jesus is libertarian Andrew Lohr" to find a short article I wrote setting out some reasons I think he's somewhat libertarian.

September 4, 2011 at 6:21 p.m.
Icanspotthem said...

What do you call a person like Andrew Lohr who spouts his religion of Libertarianism, yet is currently receiving food stamps and is the first in line to apply for unemployment when he gets laid off?

What does the Bible say about Hypocrites, Andrew?

September 4, 2011 at 6:39 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

memphisexile said...Finding a job is hard. I just got...and I am VERY glad to have it. So this labor day I will be thankful for my job and my wife's job.

Glad for you from shaky $8.50/hr.

...you think deregulation, cutting social programs and cutting taxes will...create jobs, but I think you are wrong.

Look at history. The US economy grew faster A.D. 1840-1860, with few regulations and programs and low taxes, than it has grown in any 20-year-period since.

Reagan Voodoo Economics have been proven not to work, that is why Bush I did not get reelected.

We hired Bush sr to "read my lips: no new taxes." He didn't do his job. So we fired him.

banks... make risky bets and sink the economy.

The feds back up the banks instead of letting them fail, so heads bank wins, tails taxpayers lose. Feds pushed for loans for unqualified borrowers. SOME regs, yes.

I agree with you that there should be tax reform. I think we should eliminate all deductions and credits and...adjust rates accordingly.

Strongly agree. A simple rate higher for some may encourage production; complex rates enrich tax lawyers.

Given Jesus's penchant for helping others, I think he would be for universal health care...

He healed the sick he could reach; he didn't pester Pilate and Caiphas for a health program. And why are women getting sicker? Because they eat too much and because they smoke. So no Obamacare for people actively making such destructive choices, eh? Stop smoking, lose weight, then we'll talk. (Stop fornicating too, a social evil as well as a moral one.)

he would be for SS

He'd expect children to take care of their parents--my parents live with one of my brothers--and the church, God's family, to help out as needed--support your church diaconal fund and Widow's Harvest Ministries. Chile privatized its SS.

and I think he would expect the rich to pay more taxes

He who gave his own life would expect the rich to give generously, and might demand gleaning-type opportunities (what Boaz gave Ruth: an opportunity for very hard work).

I suspect someone will disagree...and point out some passage in a book written by some guys that has been subject to many interpretations... claiming you know what Jesus would have thought is...silly.

Clay's cartoons and our posts are "subject to many interpretations." Sure, people argue about the Bible, but read it and see for yourself. I maintain that men wrote (mostly or all for good motives) producing what God wanted them to write, and that God and his mind and will can be know through it better than through its competitors. There must have been something about Jesus for us to be discussing Him 2000 years later, and what there is has come down to us through the Bible (not the gnostic 'gospel of Thomas,' however popular among modern theologians, with its drivel about Mary becoming a man to get into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus was a sensible man.)

September 4, 2011 at 7:02 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Hambone 8:32 am--LOL.

September 4, 2011 at 7:05 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Icanspotthem said...

What do you call a person like Andrew Lohr who spouts his religion of Libertarianism, yet is currently receiving food stamps and is the first in line to apply for unemployment when he gets laid off?

What does the Bible say about Hypocrites, Andrew?

Nothing good. Do you also object to my using dollars or driving on roads? (Thanks to Covenant College Bagpipe many years ago for that notion.) Look, I pay what the system asks, so I'll take what it may offer that's not evil, while preferring a better system. The Bible tells slaves to prefer freedom if they can get it; it doesn't tell them to run away, or to kill their masters, or to refuse food and shelter their masters provide. That's how I see myself. Whatever Paul thought of Caesar, he appealed to Caesar at one point.

September 4, 2011 at 7:13 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

From alprova: Reagan cut the top tax rates in this nation when he assumed office and things have been steadily going downhill ever since and the national debt has been rising.

Uh, Carter's economy was a mess; Reagan improved it a lot. National revenue has been rising, but spending has been rising faster.

September 4, 2011 at 7:16 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

From alprova: The President of this nation does not have the power to create jobs in any other sector, other than to work for the Government.

So what was the porculus bill supposed to be for?

September 4, 2011 at 7:18 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

From anniebelle: How do you think your ancestors got 'saved'? Mostly under the threat of death -- my way or the gallows or burn them at the stake type conversion -- throughout the ages. Evolve already, Andrew!

The theory of evolution denies that individuals evolve. My dad got saved when he saw that the kids at a Bible camp where he was counseling had something he didn't. When I've compared Christianity to other religions, I prefer the truth to lies, the love of Christ dying for my sins to plain death, the power that emptied Jesus's grave by resurrection (and does miracles today) to human effort...so however much respect I may have for Ayn Rand, I don't follow her. Come, repent and get your sins forgiven!

September 4, 2011 at 7:23 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

MTJohn said...

Andrew - God has created each of us in God's image. God calls us to see the face of Jesus in the face of our neighbor - especially our neighbor who is different from us, less fortunate than us and/or otherwise in need of our love. You won't see the face of Jesus by looking in the mirror. You won't find God's saving grace in the King James Version of Atlas Shrugged.

Do you see God's face in the taxpayers who pay for programs they consider harmful for the poor? Do you see it in mine? ("You won't see the face of Jesus by looking in the mirror.") I suppose you liberals would like to straighten me out, at least paying me the compliment of not saying I'm as good as I'm going to be (which is what a lot of liberalism in action says about a lot of people, in contrast to the Christian "Repent!")

September 4, 2011 at 7:33 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

timbo, right on about subsidies for big business.

MT, I try to be mostly polite to sinners, but sins need to be dealt with. You know the cliche. I wish you and our President and Mr Bennett well, to name three. I wish y'all would stop doing and/or cheer-leading harm. Regulations can hurt the poor as producers by making it hard for them to do business--by protecting existing businesses (e.g. taxis, barbers, coffin salesmen) from the competition the poor could offer. Thus it also hurts them as consumers by raising prices. The regulators are rich people taking choices away from poor people: how loathsomely paternalistic--we need protection from bad haircuts? ? Do you give to the Institute for Justice? Do you admit IJ loves the poor in its own practical way? Do you think Jesus would approve of what IJ does?

September 4, 2011 at 7:48 p.m.
fairmon said...

Interesting cartoon. It is evident if someone post anything that suggest increasing taxes on personal income brings an attack by those considered republican labeling them a socialist/communist. If the post suggest spending needs to be drastically reduced they are immediately labeled with several names and their intelligence seriously questioned by democrats. A suggestion that those able to provide for themselves should be given a hand up and not a hand out while suggesting providing better for the elderly, children and the disabled is viciously attacked as greedy by liberals.

The nerve to eliminate all business taxes, eliminate all grants and subsidies to businesses which nets lower consumer cost and increased demand is not to be seen. Increased taxes on personal income up to 70% total local, state and federal on those with an annual income exceeding one million. The nerve to pursue this does not exist, both parties and administrations are owned by the financial sector and the wealthy. They can't get elected again if they tell voters the truth and attempt to do what is right. Demand, including exports, is what creates jobs. Reduced cost and competitiveness increases demand. Reviewing all regulations for necessity is appropriate.

Unfortunately the intelligence to fully understand the proposed fairtax legislation doesn't exist in congress or the electorate. The wealthy, the media and politicians that do will use their misleading and scare tactics to prevent the needed support.

McConnell says he wants to make Obama a one term president. Maxine Waters tells the tea party to go to hell (I hope tax payers don't pay for her imported lip stick). What diplomats they are, not unlike those posting here that attack and name call if someone doesn't agree with them.

September 4, 2011 at 7:52 p.m.
AndrewLohr said...

"Stimulus" is worthless. Mountainlaurel, how can the feds stimulate demand? Despite the size of the deficit, more than half of what DC spends comes from taxes, so each "Stimulus" dollar that comes from taxes is a negative stimulus wherever it was taxed from, with no net gain; totally worthless overall. What DC borrows, others do not borrow; again, no overall stimulus. What DC prints comes out of existing dollars by reducing their value; again, no overall stimulus. Did the Confederacy and the Weimar Republic print their way to prosperity? There are complications about dollars coming from China and going to Iraq, etc., but that's the basic picture: DC "stimuli" are absolutely, totally, 100% worthless overall, though they stimulate some at the expense of others ("porculus," although particular welfare is unConstitutional.)

September 4, 2011 at 7:58 p.m.
timbo said...

Bennett's last 2 cartoons were amateurish and with creativity , not to mention humorless . He really sucks .

September 4, 2011 at 8:11 p.m.
timbo said...

Now, tell me again why were talking about Jesus and jobs ? How can jesus be own the liberal and conservative sides at the same time ? Does he kind of jump back and forth ? I thought he was apolitical.

September 4, 2011 at 8:18 p.m.
fairmon said...

Mntl,

It must be miserable to think every group or individual and those politicians that don't agree with your liberal beliefs about the economy and the country are conspiring to do harm to others and the country. I think George Soros is one dangerous individual that would like to see America fail but I don't see him succeeding in the long run. Any harm Obama causes will be from ignorance and the incompetents around him instead of malicious intent. The same is true for those that want to reduce spending without increasing revenue.

September 4, 2011 at 8:21 p.m.
fairmon said...

mntl,

Dean Baker doesn't say what happens when stimulus money runs out regardless of how much it is. He doesn't address the fact that Americans aren't the consumers except with government stimulus money which enables them to buy more imports. It would be nice if government stimulus would create sustainable growth but it is not logical to conclude that more debt will improve the economy if the only jobs are government employment or government spending programs. Is the government spending on three wars not good examples? The government is paying people to build things that they can shoot, blow up, drive, fly, float and no telling how much oil they consume then they repeat this at a cost to taxpayers never before seen. It is about as logical as Pelosi's statement that unemployment compensation was the best stimulus there could be. Yes they do spend the money but they have no choice but to buy cheap imports the same as you do. Do you drive an imported automobile? Do you buy imported clothing? What about food products?

You like conspiracy theories. Could it be the administration and congress don't want to reduce unemployment so more young people will be inclined to join the military? Are they reluctant to address the industrial military complex cost/spending because of the impact on the economy, is it a hidden stimulus?

September 4, 2011 at 8:45 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp 3339 said: “It must be miserable to think every group or individual and those politicians that don't agree with your liberal beliefs about the economy and the country are conspiring to do harm to others and the country. . . I think George Soros is one dangerous individual that would like to see America fail but I don't see him succeeding in the long run. . . The same is true for those that want to reduce spending without increasing revenue.

Huh? In all due respect, your post doesn’t make much sense to me, Harp3339. How did George Soros get into this conversation, and how does he connect with Dean Baker’s thoughts on the unemployment crisis in the U.S.?

Economist Dean Baker’s thoughts about the unemployment crisis seem pretty straightforward to me. Indeed, the reality is there are approximately 25 million unemployed people in the U.S., and the reason for this high unemployment rate is because there is not enough demand in the economy. And as Baker says the private sector will not replace this demand any time soon. Are you suggesting that the private sector will replace the demand and resolve the unemployment crisis?

I also think Baker’s comments about the current political climate are valid. Clearly, Washington's politicians are not paying any serious attention to our high rate of unemployment, especially the Republicans whose political rhetoric appears to be limited to mindless and repetitious “cut government spending” chants. If cutting government spending would create jobs, the chant might make some sense, but since it will not create jobs it is simply mindless political crap. Cutting government spending is also not going to inspire private businesses to start expanding and hiring people.

Harp3339 said: “Americans aren't the consumers except with government stimulus money which enables them to buy more imports. . . Is the government spending on three wars not good examples? The government is paying people to build things that they can shoot, blow up, drive, fly, float and no telling how much oil they consume then they repeat this at a cost to taxpayers never before seen. . . Yes they do spend the money but they have no choice but to buy cheap imports.”

Although I do not agree with your thoughts on government stimulus money, I agree with some of the other things you say here, Harp3339. For starters, I do think the U.S. needs a strong manufacturing base and feel that our elected officials have done us wrong and are continuing to do us wrong in this area. Instead of building things as you say that can shoot, blowup, etc., we should be paying people to build things like renewable energy resources and to modernize our Nation’s infrastructure. I also think the amount of time, energy and money spent on the two wars in the Middle East has been a total waste, as well as a National disgrace. The only people that have benefitted from these wars in the Middle East are military contractors like Halliburton.

September 4, 2011 at 11:51 p.m.
nucanuck said...

There will be no job's recovery until we have delt with the debt. By borrowing forward for thirty years, we have mortgaged our future to the limit. Now we have to pay back or default on that debt before we can hope for a new beginning. That will take years.

The western banking system needs many trillions to become solvent. The Fed can produce digital money with a keystroke, but that creates different layers of debt to be repaid by taxpayers. The borrowed stimulus that we need for jobs would crash the dollar and overwhelm the positive effects of the stimulus. We have stepped into the abyss.

No democrat or republican can avoid the painful fact that we are at the end of the debt road. We face years with fewer jobs and deep austerity like nothing America has ever seen before.

The America of 2021 will be nothing like the America we have known. How good or bad things turn out is up to us, our neighbors,and our communities. Hope will come from the botton up, not the top down. The Federal government won't be of much help when the problems exceed their capacity to respond.

September 4, 2011 at 11:56 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Timbo said: "Why do local, state, and federal governments . . . doing nothing and even putting up opsticles for small business. . . This is not a republican or democrat, it is collective stupidity."

Speaking of small businesses, McClatchy did some interesting canvassing:

"WASHINGTON — Politicians and business groups often blame excessive regulation and fear of higher taxes for tepid hiring in the economy. However, little evidence of that emerged when McClatchy canvassed a random sample of small business owners across the nation.

"Government regulations are not 'choking' our business, the hospitality business," Bernard Wolfson, the president of Hospitality Operations in Miami, told The Miami Herald. "In order to do business in today's environment, government regulations are necessary and we must deal with them. The health and safety of our guests depend on regulations. It is the government regulations that help keep things in order."

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is among the most vocal critics of the Obama administration, blaming excessive regulation and the administration's overhaul of health care laws for creating an environment of uncertainty that's hampering job creation.

When it's asked what specific regulations harm small businesses _which account for about 65 percent of U.S. jobs — the Chamber of Commerce points to health care, banking and national labor. Yet all these issues weigh much more heavily on big corporations than on small business. . .

McClatchy reached out to owners of small businesses, many of them mom-and-pop operations, to find out whether they indeed were being choked by regulation, whether uncertainty over taxes affected their hiring plans and whether the health care overhaul was helping or hurting their business.

Their response was surprising.

None of the business owners complained about regulation in their particular industries, and most seemed to welcome it. Some pointed to the lack of regulation in mortgage lending as a principal cause of the financial crisis that brought about the Great Recession of 2007-09 and its grim aftermath."

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/09/01/122865/regulations-taxes-arent-killing.html

September 5, 2011 at 12:19 a.m.
fairmon said...

mntl,

When interest on the debt exceeds revenue and government spending still hasn't solved our economic problems do you think that will be a sufficient attempt? Spending on infrastructure is good but how many of the unemployed millions will that occupy? Once that is complete in a generation or so what happens then? Will our trade imbalance and other problems have been solved? It is a short sighted view to think government spending can fix the economic problems we have. The government cannot spend anything it doesn't extract from the economy. Extracting more through taxes and other means reduces purchasing power/demand. It is foolish to think taxing the wealthy more, and individuals not businesses should be, that would not be sufficient to off set the foolishness of increased spending and debt. Make the stimulus 1.2 trillion per year and increase the debt that amount. At some point there is a complete failure of the government beyond anything Greece is dealing with.

Until people realize they are paying any cost imposed on any business which is not to be confused with over paid executives then our producers will not compete with imports. People will complain about American companies and bad mouth them but they will buy the cheapest products. Money goes to where it is treated best and it and jobs are leaving the U.S. at a faster and faster pace. Again, do you buy imported products or do you shop for American made products?

A local example was increased property taxes, sewer and storm water fees, water rates, electrical rates and other fees accessed by the city which results in every business, including rental property adjusting their prices upward. Consumers take a double hit due to the short sighted country club style managers economic idiots elected locally. There is now significantly less local purchasing power which will close some businesses and adversely affect employment.

September 5, 2011 at 1:01 a.m.
anniebelle said...

andrew, once again, you just don't get it. I'm not talking about 'conversions' in the last, oh say, 200 years, I'm talking about what got this hoax going in the first place, thousands of years ago. That's how we have so many scared Xtians in the first place not something that happened last week. I know you guys don't honor history and facts, but sometimes they just get in your face don't they? And if you had been born in India, 10-1 you'd be Hindu, born in Asia, you'd be Muslim. So aren't you glad you're American so you can thumb your nose at all those other ole' heathen religions. PUKE! Such rightousness flows from your piehole.

September 5, 2011 at 5:40 a.m.
miraweb said...

Funny how we get Bingo Salad to distract everyone whenever a cartoon makes a statement we all know is true and we all know is really important.

For those still filling out your Bingo cards let me help: socialist! Soros! Christian! abortion! stimulus! Obamacare! Tea bagger! racist! Limbaugh! liberal! Bush!

14 million people without anything to celebrate this Labor Day. Two million young people leaving school each year with no job prospects. 86 job seekers for every opening we have.

Houston, we have a problem.

September 5, 2011 at 8:34 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

anniebelle,

AndrewLohr and his beloved Christians treat people like you with distain and distrust. Whenever rebutted they claim it is they who are being oppressed - because they are not allowed to force you to practice what they do.

September 5, 2011 at 8:56 a.m.
OllieH said...

Considering the rainy weather we're having today, Clay is not only a great cartoonist but he's also a pretty good meteorologist.

Happy Labor Day to all!

September 5, 2011 at 9:05 a.m.

Along with Harp3339’s reliably clearheaded common sense, the best posts on this thread:

September 4, 2011 at 10:17 a.m.
MTJohn said... “Blondie - I'm a Christian. The only anger directed at me on this site seems to come from folks like yourself and Andrew and both of you profess to also be Christian. And, fwiw, you are correct. We can't put all of the blame for our current mess on George Bush. Likewise, we cannot put all of the blame on Obama. Peel enough layers of this onion away, and you will discover that the fault really lies with the electorate. We are a selfish, self-centered, greedy and dishonest lot. Thinking like a Christian, if we want real solutions, the place to begin would be to stop confessing the sins of others and repent of our own shortcomings.”

(We are what’s wrong with the world.)

September 4, 2011 at 11:56 p.m. nucanuck said... “There will be no job's recovery until we have delt with the debt. By borrowing forward for thirty years, we have mortgaged our future to the limit. Now we have to pay back or default on that debt before we can hope for a new beginning. That will take years …

(We are what’s wrong with the world.)

Lessons: Sacrilege and bigotry transcend labels. Don’t drink and drive. Don’t entrust your keys to inebriated politicians.

Happy Labor Day!

September 5, 2011 at 9:13 a.m.
limric said...

Smokin' Labor Day Love

O my BBQ's like a red, red rose, that's newly bought in June. O my BBQ's like the melody, that's sweetly played in tune

As fair art thou my bonnie lass, so deep in the blue smoke am I. That I will love thee still my dear, when the chickens are ready to fry.

Till all my sausage is cooked my dear, and the slab of pork ribs are done. I will love thee still my dear, though my beer glass doth overrun.

So hello again my only Love, I’ll be with you in a short awhile. And I will come again my love, 'cause yer smokin' butt makes me smile.

Apologies to Robert Burns, LOL…..and my wife

Happy Labor Day Y'all

September 5, 2011 at 9:55 a.m.
Icanspotthem said...

AndrewLohr, thanks for admitting you are a hypocrite. You preach against federal handouts while accepting them yourself. Typical Libertarian / Tea Party hypocrisy.

So why should we believe anything you say about The Bible or anything else? For all we know, you preach one thing yet do another. I guess the old saying "Practice what you preach" doesn't apply to you. What verse of The Bible was it where Jesus said, "Do as I say, not as I do?" Andrew 3:16

September 5, 2011 at 10:13 a.m.
ricardo said...

Whatever you do to the least of my brothers you do unto me. BTW, Jesus was a Democrat.

September 5, 2011 at 10:19 a.m.
fairmon said...

mntl said...

The only people that have benefited from these wars in the Middle East are military contractors like Halliburton.

Do you exclude those that build the bombs, bullets, ships, planes, soldier equipment and supplies and many others? Haliburton is a small player in the total picture. Haliburton, like all the others employ and pay well many American workers and stock holders. It is all government spending on non wealth creating activities. Most of the initial stimulus money was spent on non wealth creating activities and did not result in significant hiring. Government spending is only effective as long as it continues

mntl quoted from Dean Baker's article..... the reason for this high unemployment rate is because there is not enough demand in the economy. And as Baker says the private sector will not replace this demand any time soon.

Mr. Baker writes a column to attract readers and to sell the publication. He comes up short of saying how long the stimulus must continue or what will be necessary for the private sector to ever fill the void through increased demand for American made goods and services. He fails to recognize there is a limit on how much debt the government can assume, his theory doesn't include an end point. Drastic measures will be necessary accompanied by pain and inconvenience to enable American businesses to be globally competitive. American consumers buying American made products and increased exports are the only viable solution.

An example of how Mr. Bakers proposal works...

The federal government distributes infrastructure money resulting in increased construction employment, we can only hope they require hiring only American citizens. That is good, however, when that worker uses the money to buy imports which economy benefits? China, India, Vietnam, Saudi Arabia and others will keep buying our bonds and accepting our debt until they are sure we can't recover. The wealth is flowing to them anyway. They all have billions in surplus which is increasing with a lot invested in American businesses.

September 5, 2011 at 10:49 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “When interest on the debt exceeds revenue and government spending still hasn't solved our economic problems do you think that will be a sufficient attempt? Spending on infrastructure is good but how many of the unemployed millions will that occupy? . . . Will our trade imbalance and other problems have been solved?. . . It is foolish to think taxing the wealthy more, and individuals not businesses should be, that would not be sufficient to off set the foolishness of increased spending and debt, etc.”

Sorry, Harp3339, but you’re thoughts in this particular post seem incredibly scattered to me. So scattered that it’s almost impossible for me to determine the actual subject under discussion at times, and what your plan of action would be if you were sitting in Congress and faced with this unemployment issue. Specifically, what kind of plan of action are you proposing to resolve the jobs issue? What would be your short-range goals? What would be your long-range goals?

September 5, 2011 at 10:55 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Nucanuck said: "There will be no job's recovery until we have delt with the debt. By borrowing forward for thirty years, we have mortgaged our future to the limit. Now we have to pay back or default on that debt before we can hope for a new beginning. That will take years."

Surely, you’re not suggesting the U.S. will have to wait thirty years before Congress can deal with our high unemployment rate, Nucanuck. It seems to me Congress has been on holiday too long already and to suggest they have thirty more years of leisure is ridiculous.

September 5, 2011 at 10:59 a.m.
fairmon said...

What happened to Walmarts made in America promotion? Did it die along with the founder Sam Walton? Walmart actively helps establish businesses in China, Vietnam and other locations to produce their products. Walmart bankrupt many American companies by increasing their buying to a high level of the producers business then demanding unrealistic lower prices. Walmart is only one example of how the government has encouraged exporting American jobs.

The next time you buy groceries Check the country of origin of many of the food products. Check out the frozen sea food section. Is the beef from Argentina? The country of origin is almost hidden but you will likely find China or Vietnam as the source of sea food. Farm raised does not mean sanitary or subject to strict quality control. Our FDA may be weak and often ineffective but theirs is essentially non existent. A lot of produce is from Mexico and south America. An American company label does not mean the product is America sourced. Try finding corned beef from any country other than Argentina. Have you tried to find American made clothing? What is the government doing to enable instead of making it impossible for a business to succeed in America? It is not wages, transportation cost off sets most of that delta.

The question that may be more appropriate is not what is the government going to do for Americans but what are Americans going to do for themselves?

See fairtax.org for a viable solution.

September 5, 2011 at 11:15 a.m.
fairmon said...

mntl, This is the question I would ask you...

if you were sitting in Congress and faced with this unemployment issue. Specifically, what kind of plan of action are you proposing to resolve the jobs issue? What would be your short-range goals? What would be your long-range goals?

A quick summary of my will never happen actions would be:

Short range. Tax hell out of over paid executives and others with incomes over $1 million per year. Eliminate all tax loop holes, reductions, deductions, grants, subsidies etc. and set a flat tax of 15% on businesses until the fairtax proposal was in place. People would be shocked at the response to such a known and predictable action.

I would allow those 62 and oler to make a tax exempt withdrawal of up to $000,000 dollars from a tax deferred saving plan such as a 401K if they confirmed the money was spent purchasing American made products or services or contributed to an elgible charity.

I would eliminate some departments and restructure and down size others.

I would begin phasing out social security, medicare and medicaid all other welfare programs and insist and assist the states in assuming and better managing those essential to protect children, the elderly and disabled.

I would adopt the fair tax proposal H.R. 25 and S. 13 which taxes what is spent and protects the lower incomes with quarterly rebates.

I would limit campaign contributions to $100 per individual and require the candidate to make public a list of every contributor. No contributions from any source other than individuals.

I would eliminate duplications and strengthen essential regulations that protect the health and well being of citizens.

I would add to the FBI a division that monitored and investigated fraud in government including the industrial military complex and congress.

I would achieve energy independence as rapidly as possible utilizing the vast natural gas resources and all other valid energy sources.

I see no problem with insisting those we protect around the world pay for that protection at cost plus $1 per year or withdraw from those countries where we are too involved.

Energy independence and withholding of aid would do more for peace in the middle east than all the bombs and bullets. The housing bubble has not been as harmful to the economy as high energy cost and three wars.

I would enlist experts to develop a long term plan for getting all infrastructure to excellent conditions and a maintenance plan. I can assure you that is not the current department of transportation that is very political. I would include in that the revenue sources based on a user pays principle.

September 5, 2011 at 12:04 p.m.
timbo said...

mountainlaurel....Do you ever have an original thought or just quote some other dumb liberal about everything.

Your spokesman, McClatchy is full of crap, I don't believe anything he said because I am a small business guy and know a lot of small business guys and they don't agree with that idiot. Instead of asking some over educated professor, maybe they should ask us directly.

These are the main problems.

Health care wasn't a problem before Obamacare. It was an expense but not that bad. Now, I had to pay $15,000 more for my 15 people to have health care. My tipping point is $100,000 per year. When it hits that point, I will no longer provide health care.

Banking.... I make my point again, the government is eating up all of the money that small business needs because government bonds are a "sure" thing. They will not take a risk on small business no matter your credit or financial situation. The banking crisis in which we bailed out rich people, also caused a huge amount of regulation on banks that didn't even make bad loans. I bank at a small town bank and the banker I deal with told me that banking now was hell since the bailout. Regulators up the wazooo. In his words, "It is no fun anymore."

So this fantasy that non-business people have is just exacerbating the problem. I don't care what the US Chamber of Commerce, your pointed headed professors, or especially a know-nothing, never accomplished anything, political hack, like Obama says.

We are out here living it and provide jobs for even you stupid liberals who are sabotaging yourselves. Thank God I don't have any working for me. Just keep piling on and see what happens.

Next time have an original thought instead of going on the internet to find someone who agrees with your view and quoting them as an authority without giving his bonafides.

September 5, 2011 at 12:05 p.m.
fairmon said...

mntl,

edited for clarity but I don't anticipate your accepting it as a valid question.

Harp3339 said: “When interest on the debt exceeds revenue and government spending still hasn't solved our economic problems do you think that will be a sufficient attempt? Spending on infrastructure is good but how many of the unemployed millions will that occupy? . . . Will our trade imbalance and other problems have been solved?. . . It is foolish to think taxing the wealthy more which would not be sufficient to off set the foolishness of increased spending and increased debt is a solution”

I haven't seen your short range and long range goals nor have I heard Obama or any candidate detail either of those. All they say is we need to, congress needs to, or the American people want this or that. They are all sickening.

September 5, 2011 at 12:13 p.m.
rick1 said...

For all of you who slam Reagan and his tax polices here is a report looking his tax polices and Bush 1 and Clintons tax policies during recessions.

http://www.house.gov/jec/growth/taxpol/taxpol.htm

1 Real GDP grew more in five years under Reagan (23 percent cumulative growth) than it is projected to grow in seven years under Bush/Clinton (21 percent cumulative growth).

2 After four years, 4 million more jobs were created under Reagan than under Bush/Clinton.

3 Federal revenues, adjusted for inflation, grew much faster under Reagan (33 percent cumulative growth) than projected under Bush/Clinton (20 percent cumulative growth).

4 Real per capita disposable income grew more in two years under Reagan than in all four years combined thus far in the Bush/Clinton recovery (8.2 percent versus 7.8 percent).

5 Median family income grew in all of the first three recovery years under Reagan, compared to three consecutive declines under Bush/Clinton.

In other words, during the economic expansion following Reagan's tax cuts, the economy grew faster, experienced stronger revenue growth, created more jobs, and saw more rapid income growth than the current expansion under the high tax policies of Presidents Bush and Clinton.

September 5, 2011 at 12:19 p.m.
nucanuck said...

ml,

What I tried to express was that the debt build-up over the past thirty years has become an obstacle that we must deal with before we can realistically hope to create new jobs. That debt build-up provided funding for jobs that are now going away as we are forced into debt reduction. Another layer of debt now would have to have lenders/buyers.

No one wants to buy highly leveraged debt at the low rates that have been fabricated by the Fed. If the Fed were to allow rates to seek their appropriate risk level, those higher rates would sink the economy in a flash.

The long and short of it is that we have no wiggle room. We are in a box canyon with no real monetary or fiscal options other than debt reduction/default and that means that jobs will continue to fall until the debt reaches a manageable level.

Given those realities, there will be no job creation without debt resolution. We can default and get it over with quickly or we can drag it out (most likely), delaying as best we can.

If you can see any possible avenue for Congress to create jobs without first dealing with debt, I would love to hear it.

September 5, 2011 at 12:23 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “Mr. Baker writes a column to attract readers and to sell the publication. He comes up short of saying how long the stimulus must continue or what will be necessary for the private sector to ever fill the void through increased demand for American made goods and services. He fails to recognize there is a limit on how much debt the government can assume”

Dean Baker does more than write a column, Harp3339. And I suspect the reason he attracts readers and sells publications is because he is a forward thinker and quite knowledgeable on the subject of economics. Baker’s approach to issues like the deficit and unemployment crisis is also more comprehensive and typically incorporates the perspective of the American people, which seems to be rare these days. Indeed, what the U.S. needs is fewer “super committees” made up of politicians, and more “citizen committees” such as Baker’s Citizens’ Commission on Jobs, Deficits and America’s Economic Future:

“One voice has been conspicuously absent from most discussion of deficits—that of the American people. Polls have shown that the public's opinion and that of many leading economists are surprisingly well aligned. The public agrees with economists who warn that deficit reduction must be performed judiciously, without restricting government's ability to create jobs and without damaging needed social programs. Both agree that that we must make investments vital to reviving America’s long-term prospects.

The Citizen's Commission on Jobs, Deficits and America’s Economic Future was created to offer proposals that can return our economy to healthy, sustainable growth, while taking action to reduce deficits and debt in a way that enhances the future well-being of the American people."

"This commission has two major priorities. The first is to assure that the U.S. economy recovers fully and returns to a fast track of growth. This is the right way to reduce the current high deficit. The second is long-term public investment in sustainable growth, ensuring a healthy economy that can generate adequate revenue for needed public services. We have outlined three key principles that any plan for growth and deficit reduction must follow:

1) Grow the economy. Don’t kill growth and jobs in the name of deficit reduction.

2) Target what truly drives deficits. Don’t fix what isn’t broken.

3) Invest in future sustainable growth while balancing our national accounts. These are not just moral imperatives. They are economic prerequisites for successful deficit reduction."

http://www.ourfuture.org/report/citizenscommission

September 5, 2011 at 12:23 p.m.
miraweb said...

No business is a "job creator" unless there is a "demand creator" driving a need for more workers. If there is demand, the jobs will follow. There are no silver bullets for a national economic crisis.

Demand is low for a variety of reasons.

1) Fewer jobs = less disposable income = less demand. This one is the hardest solve because of its chicken and egg nature. However, it is not the only reason demand is low.

2) Crushing debt under the control of major financial institutions. Mortgages that impoverish. Credit cards that impoverish. We finally found a way to make money - without making anything else and without making jobs. Also hard to solve, but has real potential.

3) Fear. No business likes to lay off workers. It is a soul-crushing task. 2008 created existential fear for people who have never had to "man up" to the daily fears of those who have always lived from paycheck to paycheck.

While most of the less well off still manage to get out of bed everyday, some of the better-off are still crying over the half of their 401k they lost instead of getting to work with the half they still have.

4) Decreased state spending. The states made exactly the same mistake the Federal Government did during the Great Depression. When demand dropped, they started laying off people, closing offices, quit buying equipment, and shutting off a major demand stream in the economy. That contraction is still dropping demand.

5) Decresed federal spending. The Post Office is a good example. Technology change plus economic slowness is killing their revenue. Reducing hours, closing post offices, and retiring older workers looks good on their bottom line, but has exactly the same economic effects as states closing up offices.

We have to increase demand. It has to come from all players - businesses, state governments, federal governments, individuals, and everything in between.

Cutting taxes or refinancing mortgages make sense as far as they can be directly linked with adding demand.

Smaller businesses need cash and tax breaks could help them get that. They also lack credit options, a market they can trust, and most of all demand.

The largest businesses are sitting on mountains of cash. More tax breaks for these folks are very unlikely to increase their hiring and help work our way back to full employment.

As the saying goes - we can do this the easy way or we can do this the hard way. But there isn't a silver bullet.

September 5, 2011 at 12:38 p.m.
fairmon said...

timbo...

Well said. Obama and others get on TV and talk about how important businesses are, especially small businesses, then they throw another boulder on the wagon and expect the business to carry the load, in fact criticise them if they can't do more. To a politician businesses are a source of revenue not a means of increasing employment and the well being of people. They want to be your partner. They will invest nothing, have none of the risk but they will tell you who to hire, how much to pay, when to pay and provide employees. They will provide you with more rules and regulations than you can comprehend. The partner will charge you various fees and make assessments with that going to your government partner. In addition for their part of the partnership they will require up you share up to 35% of profits with them. If you do well and decide to sell their partnership interest will require you to share any gains on your initial investment without reducing the gains for inflation. Should you die then they will claim half before your heirs are able to claim the remaining half even if they helped you make the business successful Keep in mind your partner has the support of those not in business. Who could not want a partner like that? Why does every company not stay in America and take advantage of such a partnership agreement?

You know the definition of insanity. We are about to be encouraged to repeat what has not worked and will not work in the future.

September 5, 2011 at 12:39 p.m.
nucanuck said...

ml,

I just read your 12:23 post and it assumes that the US still has borrowing power to invest in sustainable growth, and thus build jobs.

Over the last year the Fed has been the single biggest buyer of our bonds. That means they are unable to sell our debt to investors. It means that the Fed is playing make-believe. It means we are out of credit. There is no other way to explain the Fed's actions.

The time for Mr Baker's proposals was 10 years ago, or after our coming job killing austerity that will be forced on us by world market forces. If we simply print money, the dollar will quickly fall in purchasing power and lose it's reserve status. That would mean that we would have to pay for imports (read oil) in the currency designated by the seller. Our current trade deficit would preclude buying what we need to sustain the American economy.

Austerity and repair are what we face before we can move forward.

September 5, 2011 at 12:44 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: "A quick summary of my will never happen actions would be. . . "

I can see that you have a number of good ideas in regard to deficit reduction, but exactly where in your proposal is the part about job development, Harp3339. As for my own thoughts about jobs development, I will post these later as I'm expected to attend a "cook-in" this afternoon, and must abandon this wonderful discussion.

September 5, 2011 at 1:11 p.m.
timbo said...

mountainlaurel......I wait with baited breath 4 your dissertation on job creation . who will you quote this time ? this discussion is a waste of time .

September 5, 2011 at 1:51 p.m.
SBrauer said...

Why don't you all just take the word "jobs" off the grill in Clay's cartoon anad thank GOD for the rain he's given you instead of pi$$in' and moaning about politics. I'm from the South, but you guys have got your head where the sun don't shine

September 5, 2011 at 1:57 p.m.
sd said...

So BBND posits liberal sexism and conservative poster ArnoldZiffel immediately responds with a marriage proposal.

Brilliant.

The TFP online is rife with sexism, but the garbage in this thread is just rabid partisanship. miraweb nailed it, as usual.

September 5, 2011 at 2:30 p.m.
dude_abides said...

timbo, what did you "bait" your breath with? lol Hey, here's a job for you and your ilk: Apprentice Baiter. After you complete your training you will achieve the title....anybody.....?

timbo is multi-tasking today... smart/dumb ass. Voice-type that.

September 5, 2011 at 3:31 p.m.
Icanspotthem said...

timbo says:

Health care wasn't a problem before Obamacare. It was an expense but not that bad. Now, I had to pay $15,000 more for my 15 people to have health care. My tipping point is $100,000 per year. When it hits that point, I will no longer provide health care.

OK, then don't. How can you blame Obamacare when most of it hasn't even kicked in yet? If your insurance company is raising your premiums they are ripping you off, which ironically is the very thing that Obamacare seeks to remedy. So you'd rather have a health care system run by the insurance companies where they can choose who to cover and what to charge. Good, stick with that then. Obamacare won't affect you at all. Enjoy your free market.

As for health care not being a problem, what planet do you live on?

September 5, 2011 at 5:01 p.m.
fairmon said...

Government intervention and involvement in health care has been a major cause of increased cost for those outside medicare. There is no comparison of medicare fraud and private insurance. Private insurance protect their other policy holders much better than the government provided medicare. Government intrusion spawned PPOs and HMOs. Those without insurance and policies without the negotiated rates make up much of the losses resulting from medicare, ppo and hmo negotiated rates. Nothing is free, the government can only spend what it confiscates from some source. Try to get congress to require any provider to charge the same rate to anyone receiving the same service or treatment.

September 5, 2011 at 5:37 p.m.
miraweb said...

Bingo!!

September 5, 2011 at 6:25 p.m.
fairmon said...

The brilliant Maxine Waters from California that says she wants to send all you tea party folks to hell says Obama should spend $1 trillion on a stimulus plan. She didn't suggest where that much could be borrowed at what interest rate. She didn't address the fact that would put the annual budget at over 4.7 trillion with a deficit of 2.7 trillion. She didn't seem concerned that it would likely result in another downgrade of the U.S. credit rating. She may not know how many zeros are in a trillion and not a clue what the U.S. dollar not being the world reserve currency would do to this country. She is an excellent example of how little intelligence we are governed with.

What would the reaction be if there was a white caucus telling any group they could go to hell or that "those people" would like to see people like us hanging from a tree. Is that the kind of rhetoric the media and democrats got upset about when the shooting in Arizona occurred? I am not a tea party advocate or a republican but there is no reason for that kind of inflammatory rhetoric by any elected official.

September 5, 2011 at 8:40 p.m.
patriot1 said...

The message on the grill could have just as easily been "Zero's re-election campaign"

September 5, 2011 at 9:07 p.m.
fairmon said...

Tomorrows stock market results will reflect the opinion of the Obama jobs plan. If the opinion is that his talk made sense it will go up. If the opinion is negative it will go down.

September 5, 2011 at 11:19 p.m.
nucanuck said...

Tuesday's stock market is more likely to reflect the chaos in the Euro zone banking sector. We have a Lehman type condition ready to blow. The big US banks would fail as well, if the European banks crash.

Obama's jobs speech pales in comparison.

September 6, 2011 at 12:44 a.m.
miraweb said...

I could take L4F comments a lot more seriously without the "Black Messiah" epithet. Can't decide if he has race-based tourettes or is just trolling for more attention. Perhaps the "Jewish Messiah" would have had similar days.

It doesn't take much to lift out scriptures to support what we want to think anyway. I'm sure many libertarians would balk at Romans 13:7 ---

"Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority."

It is hard to imagine a Jesus who would have really cared who fed the poor and the sick (remember the Samaritan, anyone) -- just as long as they got fed.

September 6, 2011 at 9:57 a.m.
jesse said...

HEY LIMRIC!

man, you gotta lay off them limrics!!!

September 6, 2011 at 10:40 a.m.
nucanuck said...

Thank you L4F for taking the bait I laid out for you.

September 6, 2011 at 11:34 a.m.
timbo said...

dude_abides.... I’m glad to see that one of the Buggery Boyz is back. I thought your feelings were hurt since you are a caring man of the new millennium. You metrosexuals are very sensitive. Did you and your boyfriend make up? As usual I am going to educate one of you “intelligent, enlightened” liberals.

The definition of “baited breath” is when breathing is subdued because of some emotion or difficulty. Its origin was found in Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice, 1596: What should I say to you? Should I not say 'Hath a dog money? Is it possible A cur can lend three thousand ducats?' Or Shall I bend low and in a bondman's key, With bated breath and whispering humbleness, Say this; 'Fair sir, you spit on me on Wednesday last; You spurn'd me such a day; another time You call'd me dog; and for these courtesies I'll lend you thus much moneys'?

Geoffrey Taylor, in the poem Cruel, Clever Cat, 1933, used the word for comic effect: Sally, having swallowed cheese Directs down holes the scented breeze Enticing thus with baited breath Nice mice to an untimely death.

An educated, well rounded person uses these types of terms to put some emphasis on a preceding comment. Someday, even a piss ant like you might become educated enough for the adult world….but I doubt it.

September 6, 2011 at 11:41 a.m.
lkeithlu said...
  • Jesus believed in PERSONAL INITIATIVE*

Uh, not quite. He believed in giving all to the poor and living a simple life of service to others. I think it's awful that you twist what Jesus was about to justify your selfishness. Shame on you.

September 6, 2011 at 11:42 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: "Government intervention and involvement in health care has been a major cause of increased cost for those outside medicare. There is no comparison of medicare fraud and private insurance. Private insurance protect their other policy holders much better than the government provided medicare."

Please, Harp3339. What you fail to mention is the greatest portion of medicare fraud is committed by the private insurance industry and they are known to be repeated offenders.

September 6, 2011 at 12:57 p.m.
timbo said...

Libertarians4Freedom.....Ok, now dude_abides won't have to buy the Cliff Notes to get a little culture. That was a great description of the play by the way.

Dude_abides is just another liberal pseudo-intellectual that poses like he knows something. He is no different than the typical liberal that just parrots what he heard on MSNBC or MoveOn.org.

It will take old dude quiet awhile to come up with a comeback on that one.

September 6, 2011 at 1:56 p.m.
dude_abides said...

timbo, you spelled bated breath incorrectly, and then googled your spelling and found an example of the word spelled incorrectly on purpose for levity, and now insist that's how you meant it all along. What a dickhead.

By the way, why would I need a boyfriend when your woman is readily available?

"Instead of asking some over educated professor, maybe they should ask us directly." --timbo This statement seems at odds with your boast of being educated and well rounded, don't you think?

Please tell me which previous post you were spelling bated wrong for. Was it a reference to Taylor? To a cat's breath? Maybe I just missed the correlation. Your post seemed more vicious than comical.

September 6, 2011 at 3:20 p.m.
dude_abides said...

timbo, you never explained how you voice-typed asterisks into the word pissant the last time you were "driving while online" and making spelling and grammatical errors.

September 6, 2011 at 3:26 p.m.
timbo said...

dude_abides.....This expression can be "bated" or "baited." The poem is the example I used for my "baited" comment because I was trying some levity. If you want to split hairs, yes, the correct usage would have been "bated."

As far as your obsession with grammar, I was using my smart phone, you idiot.

I will para phrase a quote form Pee Wee Herman, you possible boy friend, who once said, "I might be a d***head but what are you?" Is that the best you got?

September 6, 2011 at 3:59 p.m.
timbo said...

Icanspotthem....

"Health care wasn't a problem before Obamacare. It was an expense but not that bad. Now, I had to pay $15,000 more for my 15 people to have health care. My tipping point is $100,000 per year. When it hits that point, I will no longer provide health care."

I meant it wasn't a problem for ME to pay for my employees.

You said, "OK, then don't. How can you blame Obamacare when most of it hasn't even kicked in yet?"

BULLCRAP!!!

Here is what has "kicked in" already.

  1. Mandates for uninsured children. Any child 18 or under can come on any plan even with pre-existing conditions. Any other words if a child had cancer, came on to any plan, the insurance has to cover them. Before the coverage would not start for a year. This was a major cost increase for total people covered.

  2. Every wellness exam now is covered 100%. Another huge initial cost.

  3. This is the craziest thing I've ever heard. Children 18-26 have to be covered even if they are married, even if they live somewhere else, no matter what. This is insane but expensive.

I am not arguing the "merit" or politics, just the economics. Nothing is free, someone has to pay.

On the other hand, you are arguing politics. Are you so naive to think that any additional costs is spread out to the total people on insurance. Do you really think the government wouldn't raise taxes if expenses went up? The insurance companies are just doing the same thing.

Would I rather the insurance companies run health care instead of the fumbling, bumbling government. You damn right. Over time the free market will dictate that the insurance companies will have to reduce premimums or lose business.

What you guys are after is the Canadian/European style health care system. That would ruin the good things we have.

Why don't you get on doctors who think their time is worth $20,000 per hour for surgery or the drug companies that sell things for 5000 times what a drug is worth?

I was just telling you what happened to my business from one year to the next. One year no Obamacare, next year with Obamacare.

Oh, yea, I won't drop health care as long as I can afford it.

September 6, 2011 at 4:29 p.m.
fairmon said...

timbo...

You have only seen the tip of the iceberg resulting from the infamous AHCA that most members of congress never read before passing. It may be the most poorly constructed most illogical and unfair legislation ever produced by any congress. You will either have to increase the cost of the product your company produces or reduce health care or wages. That is a cost that no political idiot considered when insisting that Obama care was the best thing since ice cream. I agree, I would prefer private insurers with reasonable regulations manage insurance instead of a bloated inefficient government. You may want to request a waiver that exempts you from Obamacare like the millions of others that have requested and been granted a waiver including three states with Harry Reid's Nevada being one of them.

September 6, 2011 at 5:07 p.m.
fairmon said...

Maxine Waters may not have a lock on congressional economic ignorance. One fine "tax them more" member stated if we let those companies bring their 1.2 trillion in profits in other countries to the U.S. at a reduced tax rate instead of the 35% a lot of them won't invest it. They will just pay it out in dividends or spend it some other way. Think about that response a minute versus the option of them leaving it frozen in another country and possibly investing it there. I wonder if that fine member of our congress has a clue where dividends go. Do they realize people with a 401Km or people depending on them for income would benefit? People investing in a dividend paying stock do so with money they paid taxes on then pay taxes again on any dividends received, is this double taxation?

September 6, 2011 at 5:17 p.m.
fairmon said...

mntl said.....Please, Harp3339. What you fail to mention is the greatest portion of medicare fraud is committed by the private insurance industry and they are known to be repeated offenders

Can you sight examples that exceed those involving medicare. If a private insurer committed medicare fraud I assume there were criminal charges and convictions? This may be yet another reason to eliminate medicare/medicaid as currently designed.

September 6, 2011 at 5:25 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: "If a private insurer committed medicare fraud I assume there were criminal charges and convictions? This may be yet another reason to eliminate medicare/medicaid as currently designed."

Since it is the private insurers committing the fraud, your rationale seems rather ridiculous, Harp3339. Do we eliminate banks because their employees commit fraud? Do we eliminate Wall Street investment agencies because their employees commit fraud? Anyway, one of the more recent cases that I read about involved Wellcare executives. In this particular case, Florida’s Medicaid Program was the victim:

"TAMPA, FL—United States Attorney Robert E. O'Neill announces the return by a grand jury of an indictment charging five former executives of WellCare Health Plans, Inc. ("WellCare") with conspiracy to commit Medicaid fraud, false statements, and other related charges. Specifically, the indictment charges Todd S. Farha (42, Tampa), former chief executive officer; Thaddeus M.S. Bereday (45, Tampa), former general counsel; Paul L. Behrens (49, Odessa), former chief financial officer; William L. Kale (61, Oldsmar), former vice president of Harmony Behavioral Health, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of WellCare; and Peter E. Clay, (54, Wellesley, Massachusetts), former vice president of Medical Economics. The maximum penalty for each health care fraud count is up to 10 years’ imprisonment. The maximum term of imprisonment for each of the other counts is up to five years.

According to the indictment, beginning in July 2003 and continuing until October 24, 2007, the defendants, all former executives of WellCare, conspired to engage and engaged in a scheme to defraud the Florida Medicaid program by making false and fraudulent statements relating to expenditure information for behavioral health care services. WellCare operates health maintenance organizations ("HMOs") in several states targeted to government-sponsored health care benefit programs such as Medicaid. Two WellCare HMOs (StayWell and Healthease) operating in Florida, contracted with the Agency for Health Care Administration ("AHCA"), the Florida agency which administers the Medicaid program, to provide Florida Medicaid program recipients with an array of services, including behavioral health services.

In May 5, 2009 the United States filed charges in an information and deferred prosecution agreement against WellCare. Pursuant to that deferred prosecution agreement, WellCare was required to pay $40 million in restitution, forfeit another $40 million to the United States, and cooperate with the government's criminal investigation. On that same day, an information and plea agreement for co-conspirator Gregory West were unsealed. In the plea agreement, West, a former employee of WellCare, admitted his participation in the scheme to defraud the Medicaid program.

http://www.fbi.gov/tampa/press-releases/2011/ta030211a.htm

September 6, 2011 at 5:49 p.m.
fairmon said...

Sounds like another provider fraud not an insurer. I hope they all get the max. Still, the availability and ease with which fraud can occur with medicare is not surprising. The government would serve people better by regulating and closely auditing insurers and providers instead of being the insurer. Do you have any idea why so many are requesting and getting waivers from complying with the AHCA? Three states (Nevada and two others) plus millions of others in certain congressional districts and unions?

September 6, 2011 at 6:36 p.m.
ricardo said...

harp3339 said... Do you have any idea why so many are requesting and getting waivers from complying with the AHCA? Three states (Nevada and two others) plus millions of others in certain congressional districts and unions?

Hmmm... Because they are politically motivated (i.e., conservative districts)?

September 6, 2011 at 8:46 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: "Do you have any idea why so many are requesting and getting waivers from complying with the AHCA?"

Can’t believe you don’t know the answer to this question, Harp3339. Surely, you’ve observed the relationship between politicians and their campaign donors. It’s usually about money, and lots of it. . . A few years ago, there was a federal antiracketeering lawsuit in Texas against Blue Cross Blue Shield that involved a cash payment of more than $131 million to physicians:

“Physicians will soon begin receiving official notice of the settlement of the federal antiracketeering lawsuit against Blue Cross and Blue Shield. . .The settlement. . . includes substantial prospective relief as well as a guaranteed cash payment of more than $131 million to physicians who qualify and file a claim. All practicing Texas physicians can benefit from the approximately $131 million settlement, receiving prospective relief from changes to Blue Cross practices, and . . . retrospective relief for past harm.

More than 90 percent of Blue Cross and Blue Shield health plans and the Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association are involved in the settlement. Although Blue Cross denies any wrongdoing, it did agree to change its business practices. In the settlement, which is similar to previous agreements with Aetna, CIGNA, and other defendants, Blue Cross agreed to:

Ensure the payment of valid, clean electronic claims within 15 days and paper claims within 30 days;

Provide fee schedules to physicians;

Implement a definition of medical necessity that makes sure patients are entitled to receive medically necessary care as determined by a physician exercising clinically prudent judgment in accordance with generally accepted standards of medical practice;

Provide physicians with access to an independent medical necessity external review process;

Use clinical guidelines based on credible scientific evidence published in peer-reviewed medical literature . . . when making medical necessity determinations;

Establish an independent external review board for resolving disputes with physicians concerning many common billing disputes;

Pay for the cost of recommended vaccines and injectibles and for administering them;

http://www.texmed.org/Template.aspx?id=5977

September 6, 2011 at 9:57 p.m.
timbo said...

harp3339.....What really pisses me off is that fact that Obama issued 1700 waivers to large corporations to let them off the hook on paying for this monstrosity. GE, McDonald's,etc. all large and all putting campaign cash in Obama's cookie jar. Who pays the difference? Businesses like mine who don't have the contacts. We have to live with it. Congress, government workers, the President...They don't have to live with their stupid plan.

Another example, is the fact that if these ignorant liberals have their way, the government will always pick the winners and losers in the economy. And Obama's buddies will always be he winners.

Yea, and Republicans would do the same thing because their all a dems and reps are all bunch of unqualified, dishonest, con men who only look out for themselves and their buddies.

Maxine Waters is an unqualified, racist, big mouth who couldn't run a flea circus. She is just another poverty pimp like Jesse Jackson.

If you are like Waters, Hoffa (An unmitigated fool), etc and agree with their rhetoric then, so be it, let their be a war. I think that is just what we need is to decide a direction once and for all. You want a war, then we should give it to you. You won't like the way we conduct a war.

All these stupid democrats are doing is getting people like me to choose sides. To get us to accept the argument from Republicans that "we might be bad but Obama is a disaster. You better vote for us." With Hoffa's kind of talk, a lot of us who vote 3rd party just might vote Republican this time.

September 6, 2011 at 11:59 p.m.
alprova said...

Timbo wrote: "What really pisses me off is that fact that Obama issued 1700 waivers to large corporations to let them off the hook on paying for this monstrosity. GE, McDonald's,etc. all large and all putting campaign cash in Obama's cookie jar. Who pays the difference? Businesses like mine who don't have the contacts. We have to live with it. Congress, government workers, the President...They don't have to live with their stupid plan."

I've been delving into the rumors about the waivers granted "special interests," exempting them from Obamacare. First of all, waivers granted thus far have been for only one year, and they have to involve proof that without the waiver, health insurance rates provided by the employer would rise and therefore would be forced to suspend providing health care coverage for their employees.

The companies that have been issued waivers to date are not waivers from the program at all. They are waivers from the provisions that demand that health plans must provide at least $750,000 in annual insurance protection to those they cover.

McDonald's for instance provides small insurance plans for even those who work part-time. Being forced to provide full coverage plans for those workers would indeed present a financial burden to them. Thus they were granted a one-year exemption.

Nearly two-dozen states have either applied for or have been granted waivers from another Obamacare rule that forces health insurers operating in their states to comply with strict federal limits on how much they can spend on administration versus reimbursements for medical bills.

"Another example, is the fact that if these ignorant liberals have their way, the government will always pick the winners and losers in the economy. And Obama's buddies will always be he winners."

And of course, you have proof that each and every company granted a waiver is a "buddy" of the President, right? You are repeating what can be found on sites like NewsMax and other non-mainstream outlets for news and information. "Slanted and purveyors of misinformation" does not even begin to describe such sites.

September 7, 2011 at 2:37 a.m.
fairmon said...

Alprova did you find why the whole state of Nevada and two other states were granted waivers or is that bad information the artice I read included? Why were so many unions granted waivers?

September 7, 2011 at 6:42 p.m.
alprova said...

Harp, I can't find a reliable list of employers anywhere that proves which ones were granted waivers. All that's out there on the web that makes claims are third rate blogs. This issue is so clouded, that I cannot discover the source. One person writes something and it goes viral, being repeated across the web.

I'm not sure where the information is coming from as to how true the claims are. McDonald's and Jack in the Box, were definitely granted one year waivers, as this was confirmed by ABC, and they both provide minimal policies for their employees. The $750,000 policy requirements most definitely do present a burden to those corporations.

Unions being given waivers? I seriously doubt it, as those providers probably offer superior coverage already to their members.

Again, the states being given waivers only applied for a temporary exemption to the requirements imposed upon insurers that operate within their respective states, in that they are required to spend only so much for administrative costs, in relation to the amount in premiums that they collect.

No one has been granted an exemption from all of Obamacare -- Only exemptions from certain provisions associated with it, and only for a period of up to one to two years.

September 8, 2011 at 5:55 a.m.

Well, i'm fairly new so i'll just say some of these comments were very interesting.

There's a lot of anger directed at Christians on this site. (blondebutnotdumb) i noticed this alot so far and i've been around as they say. seems like alot of denial too.

Well, you could start by knocking off that 100 pound chip that you think makes you superior to others, that exists on your shoulder.(alprova) one thing i noticed in her comments was she sounds like she knows more than anybody else here, maybe out there too. is it true that some people think theyre smart but are not really? i wonder

Jesus believed in PERSONAL INITIATIVE* Uh, not quite. He believed in giving all to the poor and living a simple life of service to others. I think it's awful that you twist what Jesus was about to justify your selfishness. Shame on you (lkeithlu) i like this one. he sounds like a really good Christian man who knows more about the Bible than anyone else. here i mean!

well, you guys all sound so smart so i know i can get alot of free information here way to go!

September 8, 2011 at 2:33 p.m.
Rufus_T_Firefly said...

Republican agenda is misery. Make America so miserable and maybe they won't vote in 2012.

Unemployed? Republicans aren't going to accomplish much in the next 14 months.

Except make you miserable!

MORE...................

September 10, 2011 at 9:05 a.m.
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