published Saturday, April 7th, 2012

Evolution

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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hambone said...

IGNORE THE RIGHT-WING INTERNET TROLLS!

Do not respond to their insults and name calling. Let them compete with each other. Let them pat each other on the back and tell each other how smart they think they are!

Ignoring them is like pouring water on THE WICKED WITCH.

They will just melt away into cyberspace!!

April 7, 2012 at 12:10 a.m.
Yossarian25 said...

^ remarkably simple yet great advice!! I assume that so far 7 comments have been removed, because they have proved clay's theory correct? Many of the troll comments remind me of monkeys with typewriters, flinging their virtual poop at however tries to disagree with them...

April 7, 2012 at 1:07 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

This cartoon proves (again) that Mr Bennett, at least publicly, despises--dehumanizes--those he disagrees with. So do hambone and yossarian. Guys, read Jesus's exposition of "Thou shalt not kill" in the Sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5, expanding it to include 'He who says to his brother, You idiot...'

In context of the current debate, his despising extends to taking our money and refusing us freedom of speech.

Repent, hateful liberals; join the libertarian Christian lovefest!

April 7, 2012 at 6:05 a.m.
woody said...

God don't make no junk..now having said that it is entirely possible He did create a few people here and there who have decidedly gone off on pathways of their own choosing.

Don't get me wrong, I have to believe in dinosaurs and the evolution of certain species of humanoids..there is too much evidence to ignore. However, if there are truly people out there who can look around them, and I mean really look with an open mind, and still honestly confess they believe all of this "just happened", they need a keeper.

Believe in whatever deity you wish (Atheists, you're on your own)but this world of endless wonders, not to mention the universe(s) beyond,did not "just happen."..Woody

April 7, 2012 at 7:14 a.m.
EaTn said...

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? Arguing about evolution versus creation is like two mules fighting over an ear of corn--what's the point? Keep the Bible discussions out of science class and keep the science discussions out of Bible class--both are unproven theories based on biased beliefs, and that's what parents need to tell their kids.

April 7, 2012 at 7:38 a.m.
quark said...

Clay may - or may not - be grinding on an axe here.... one possible reading is that the teacher is being taken to task for a 'my religion is better than your religion' play at irony...

At any rate, the logical dissonance in the premise is not because of the existence of competing dogmas, but that both pro and con feel a moral justification to force their own dogma onto others and compel its funding with other people's money. End the enforcement of a broken system of compulsory public indoctrination and a lot of these battles become as irrelevant as differences in allegiance to sports teams.

April 7, 2012 at 7:59 a.m.
davisss13 said...

lol. Devolution on parade.

April 7, 2012 at 8:04 a.m.
davisss13 said...

AndrewLohr said... This cartoon proves (again) that Mr Bennett, at least publicly, despises--dehumanizes--those he disagrees with.

Welcome to our world, rightwanker. This is exactly what the GOP does except THEIR dehumanization kills. You don't like criticisms of creationism? Too GD bad. Those morons will drag out chicken entrails next.

April 7, 2012 at 8:06 a.m.
davisss13 said...

In context of the current debate, his despising extends to taking our money and refusing us freedom of speech.

Sorry buddy, creationism is stupid, is NOT science in any way, shape or form and should be taught in a religious school but never, ever in a public school.

April 7, 2012 at 8:08 a.m.
davisss13 said...

Believe in whatever deity you wish (Atheists, you're on your own)but this world of endless wonders, not to mention the universe(s) beyond,did not "just happen."..Woody

And how do you know that? You don't.

April 7, 2012 at 8:09 a.m.
davisss13 said...

At any rate, the logical dissonance in the premise is not because of the existence of competing dogmas, but that both pro and con feel a moral justification to force their own dogma onto others and compel its funding with other people's money.

what a steaming pile of manure. You're saying one is as legitimate as the other? I'll take science and the word of scientists over these goofy assed creation stories that sound like fairy tales.

April 7, 2012 at 8:12 a.m.

I absolutely love how someone can start a comment telling others to ignore people that "MAY" call them names while at the same time their header is calling those people names. It is simply hilarious to see the double standards that people have.

April 7, 2012 at 8:35 a.m.
chet123 said...

LOOK LIKE THE RIGHT-WING HAVE CLOSED SHOP AND GONE HOME!!!!!!!!!

EVEN THEY DONT TRULY BELEIVE IN WHAT THEY SAY! THEY JUST SAY IT!!

April 7, 2012 at 8:35 a.m.
quark said...

Davisss,

You argue with a straw man..... I specifically do not make the argument of equivalence. My position is that regardless of one's standing on the merits of the evolution/creation debate, it only becomes a controversy because of the employment of violence (or the threat of it) in advocating one over the other. The concept of public education is immoral philosophically and breeds just such dissention over trivialities.... A moral and sustainable society recognizes the right of a man to believe what he chooses and recognizes his right to be free from funding that which he finds objectionable..... But i suspect to maintain consistency you'll seek to justify and rationalize totalitarianism as the only possible way of doing things. The alternative is too appalling - people might believe unapproved things and you'd have no mechanism for attempting to end the debate rather than to win it on the merits.

April 7, 2012 at 8:43 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Unfortunately, Creationism and Intelligent Design cannot win any debate on their own merits if presented as science. However, the average high school teacher (and of course, student) is not an expert in the field, and may be easily fooled by arguments that on the surface seem sound and in fact are not. Including that often used argument from incredulity. ("How could all this be from chance? I don't believe that!)

I predict that some science teacher may do exactly this: show how Creation is falsified by the evidence (which it is if you apply the accepted rules of science) and children will tell their parents how the science class showed how their Sunday School was "wrong". The bill will be rescinded in a hurry. Creation "science" is poor theology as well as poor science. ID is poor theology as well as non-science. (no one is doing research from that paradigm).

April 7, 2012 at 8:50 a.m.
quark said...

Chet....

Your logic is rock-solid and your rhetoric impervious to further debate..... Can I ask- has mensa signed you up yet? You must be quite self-satisfied.....

April 7, 2012 at 8:52 a.m.
chet123 said...

ANFREWLOHN.....I KNOW YOU DIDNT CALL LIBERAL HATEFUL....AND BY HTE WAY...I'M A DEMOCRATIC LIBERAL.....HEY ANDY! I'M YOUR WORSE NITE-MARE

April 7, 2012 at 9:13 a.m.
jjmez said...

God, real or not. Jesus Christ may have been a real person born beyond his times. But was he divine or did he just have a high gift of insight into human nature? Religion was created by man to control the masses. Anything created by man has serious major flaws. The Bible contradicts itself over and over. It's like a book of fables written by a bunch of psychotic socipaths with split personality tendencies.

April 7, 2012 at 9:14 a.m.
chet123 said...

HEY ANDY...ARE YOU ONE OF THOSE PREACHER WHO HIDE BEHIND THE COMPUTERS??????....HA HA HA!!!!!!

April 7, 2012 at 9:15 a.m.
davisss13 said...

The concept of public education is immoral philosophically and breeds just such dissention over trivialities.... A moral and sustainable society recognizes the right of a man to believe what he chooses and recognizes his right to be free from funding that which he finds objectionable....

Oh BS. That type of thinking labeled Galileo a heretic and leaves us in the stone age. Look at Texas textbooks. These GD ignorant redneck creationists and ID proponents are destroying/poisoning education in Texas, hoping that it will spread across the country. Now we have another 'monkey trial' scenario in Tennessee.

You and your ilk who include your religion in science are the American Taliban. ID and creationism is pure weapons grade baloneyum.

April 7, 2012 at 9:43 a.m.
MTJohn said...

quark said...At any rate, the logical dissonance in the premise is not because of the existence of competing dogmas, but that both pro and con feel a moral justification to force their own dogma onto others and compel its funding with other people's money.

The logical dissonance is that evolution is science - creationism is dogma. Evolution belongs in a science class. Creationism belongs in religion and philosophy classes.

quark said...The concept of public education is immoral philosophically and breeds just such dissention over trivialities.... A moral and sustainable society recognizes the right of a man to believe what he chooses and recognizes his right to be free from funding that which he finds objectionable.....

I'd suggest that public education is and ought to be amoral.

Given the Constitution, our society is moral and sustainable only if it works for all Americans. That kind of sustainability begins with responsible citizenship. Responsible citizenship is not a multiple choice test. Our government is of, by and for the people. It only works if all of us are all in.

And, speaking as a Christian, I know there is a clear distinction between God's Kingdom of Truth and earthly kingdoms of power. We have been reminded again of that distinction this past week as we Christians recall Christ's passion and His trial before Pilate. We are not called to make the United States heaven on earth. We are called to live as responsible citizens of this country. We also are citizens in the Kingdom of Truth. So, we live with that tension - we are not called to relieve it.

April 7, 2012 at 9:43 a.m.
TPliske said...

For those who don't believe in evolution because it's a "theory", go jump out the window and see if you can fly, gravity is a "theory" as well. In fact, please go on the highest building by where you live and jump, lets put the "theory of gravity" to the test, from what I have heard, if you don't believe in gravity, you just soar into the sky and lounge with Jesus in the clouds.

April 7, 2012 at 9:55 a.m.
davisss13 said...

We are not called to make the United States heaven on earth.

Thank you.

You're not called to advance global religious war/Armageddon either.

April 7, 2012 at 10:02 a.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

Why Evolution is True. click

April 7, 2012 at 10:03 a.m.
quark said...

Daviss.......

I got you pegged...... Allowing people to formulate their own viewpoints is problematic because they might espouse views different than your own..... It would frankly be comical if not for the number of people on both side of the issue who share your inclination.

Your alluding to Galileo is ironic, in that all he advocated was freedom to form and advocate his own positions regardless of the positions of those in authority. What you suppose that he'd advocate (your position) is precisely the position of those who condemned him because he refused to relent in the face of an officially approved position that differed from his own.

April 7, 2012 at 10:03 a.m.
Salsa said...

Looks like a hate speech cartoon.

April 7, 2012 at 10:07 a.m.
TPliske said...

"he advocated was freedom to form and advocate his own positions regardless of the positions of those in authority."

You clearly missed the class on Galilleo or you were screwed y your teacher. He did not argue for "freedom" or any of the such, the debate was over the irrefutably of science even in the face of religious ideology. In that, you cannot bend science/reality to your ideological will. Galileo was punished for saying that religion was wrong, just like the defendant in the Monkey trial.

April 7, 2012 at 10:09 a.m.
davisss13 said...

I have no problem with people teaching their kids whatever creation story they want. I myself had a mythology and the Bible course in high school. But you can't teach religion in a science class.

Are you going to include other creation stories as well? Are you going top teach that the world sits on a turtle's back or are you satisfied with creationism as described by the modern Christian movement?

April 7, 2012 at 10:12 a.m.
MTJohn said...

davisss13 said...You're not called to advance global religious war/Armageddon either.

I agree. And, as a practicing Christian, I believe that Armageddon is over. I remembered the "war" last evening. God won - God is in control - and we will remember again that victory tomorrow morning. The celebration will occur where it belongs - in the sanctuary, not in a public school classroom.

April 7, 2012 at 10:14 a.m.
davisss13 said...

What you suppose that he'd advocate (your position) is precisely the position of those who condemned him because he refused to relent in the face of an officially approved position that differed from his own.

Now you're the victim? lol. The church was the oppressor then and it still is.

You want to vote for idiots who believe in teaching bs fables as science? Go for it. I'll see ya at the polls. Every. single. time.

The sad thing is people like you are polluting all the fields of science, not just teaching. You're setting the US back at least a hundred years.

April 7, 2012 at 10:16 a.m.
davisss13 said...

TPliske said...

You clearly missed the class on Galilleo or you were screwed y your teacher. He did not argue for "freedom" or any of the such, the debate was over the irrefutably of science even in the face of religious ideology. In that, you cannot bend science/reality to your ideological will. Galileo was punished for saying that religion was wrong, just like the defendant in the Monkey trial.

Exactly. This is the perfect example of the revisionist history the Republicans use to achieve their goals. That is why they cannot be allowed to insert their own version as fact.

April 7, 2012 at 10:22 a.m.
EaTn said...

TPliske said...

"For those who don't believe in evolution because it's a "theory", go jump out the window and see if you can fly, gravity is a "theory" as well."

Gravity is one of those mysterious creations of God that man can measure but hasn't figured why it works.

April 7, 2012 at 11:27 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Gravity is one of those mysterious creations of God that man can measure but hasn't figured why it works.

Hogwash. Gravitation is understood very well except at the subatomic levels (lacking a quantum explanation)

April 7, 2012 at 11:41 a.m.
EaTn said...

lkeithlu said... "Hogwash. Gravitation is understood very well except at the subatomic levels (lacking a quantum explanation)"

Uh..Most people understand gravity effects which is a far cry from understanding it's causes.

April 7, 2012 at 11:58 a.m.
workinjay said...

Hey CHET, I noticed after all of your pointless rambling yesterday, you still couldn't answer Rick1's question: "If you were offered a CEO position and the salary was $10 million a year, can you honestly say you would turn it down?" If you finally admit that you would take it, don't worry, no one will think you are a hipocrite. Everyone is well aware that you are still between the Sensorimotor and Preoporational stages of cognitive development. BTW, would you roll over and tell Potcat to take a bath?

April 7, 2012 at 12:11 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Physicists understand it very well.

April 7, 2012 at 12:12 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

keithlu said... Physicists understand it [gravity] very well.

No, they don't, they theorize about it very well. Truth is gravity does still remain a mystery. Newton said it's a force, Einstein says it is the bending of time and space around the Earth. Both are unproven theories.

April 7, 2012 at 12:49 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Scientific theories are never PROVEN. You clearly don't understand what a scientific theory is.

Gravitation is the attraction between two objects. We see earth's gravity as the attraction between a massive object and smaller objects. It is understood extremely well. No woo, no mystery. Only in unified theories does the edge of science's understanding of gravity fall short. It won't always.

April 7, 2012 at 12:51 p.m.
EaTn said...

I find it both amusing and sad that many folks spend their entire lives either rejecting or trying to disprove God with nothing to gain, everything to lose and never knowing whether they were right or wrong until they die.

April 7, 2012 at 12:53 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I find it both amusing and sad that many folks spend their entire lives either rejecting or trying to disprove God with nothing to gain, everything to lose and never knowing whether they were right or wrong until they die.

I challenge you to find any evidence in my posts that I am trying to "disprove God".

April 7, 2012 at 12:54 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

Blockquote lkeithlu said... Scientific theories are never PROVEN.

Until they become a Scientific Law. Never say never, all scientific laws started out as theories. Your theory is debunked.

April 7, 2012 at 12:56 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

EaTn said... I find it both amusing and sad that many folks spend their entire lives either rejecting or trying to disprove God with nothing to gain, everything to lose and never knowing whether they were right or wrong until they die.

I would love to disprove your idea of "God" Your idea of God has been the reason that humans have been forced into ignorance. We have been held back from scientific discoveries until rise of the atheist. Religion and humans thoughts of God have also been an excuse for war, death, and destruction for thousands of years.

Religion, the Bible, and ever physical thing man by man and put in man's language, is ignorant. Man's language is not vast enough to have a complete sense of everything within the universe and the forces behind the universe. The Bible is a great book with some great stories, but to claim the Bible or any other religious text is the word of God, is self-rightous and narcissistic bull-crap.

April 7, 2012 at 1:04 p.m.
EaTn said...

Ikeithlu said..."I challenge you to find any evidence in my posts that I am trying to disprove God"

I wasn't talking about any particular person and I believe seeking and finding answers to the universe is one of the reasons God made us with brains. I believe science is evidence of the mystery and creativity of God, whereas others spin it to reject God.

April 7, 2012 at 1:15 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

EaTn said I believe science is evidence of the mystery and creativity of God, whereas others spin it to reject God.

Others who reject God, are correct to do so. They are not rejecting an all powerful being. They are rejecting your ability to understand it. Human beings are ignorant meat monkeys. 2 thousand years ago, they were even more ignorant than they are today (hard to believe, I know... but at least education has helped the mental evolution of the species) The books that humans cling to for religious guidance, were nursery rhymes dumbed down to the level of humans thousands of years ago. God is not a man with a grey beard sitting on a cloud pointing his finger down at the Earth. People should reject this idea of God. People should reject religion. Both these things are of the ignorance of humans. Religion is built by the GREED of the Emperors, Kings, and Rulers who created religion as a way of controlling their subjects.

April 7, 2012 at 1:25 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Blunderdog said...Religion and humans thoughts of God have also been an excuse for war, death, and destruction for thousands of years.

Selfishness and hatred are the reasons for war. Yes, too often humans use religion to rationalize war. But, people do not need religion to hate and behave selfishly. All of us share those tendencies.

April 7, 2012 at 1:33 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

Religion has been the straps which has created slaves of humanity. ALL Religions were started by Kings, Emperors, and other rulers. The rulers were men. They were ignorant. They were greedy. They do not care about your eternal soul. When they compiled the Bible, the Qu'ran, or any other religious text, they could care less if it was to benefit your spirituality. They only cared about one thing, how well they could use the books to control you. The Bible is an instrument of control, it is the leather lash which is used to hold you down, to enslave you.

April 7, 2012 at 1:42 p.m.
TPliske said...

Religions were not started by Kings, Emperors and rulers; religion is the byproduct of the human development of consciousness. Once man became a conscious being, who could think and fear not the immediate but the unknown, religion was born. Religion is as old as man is, and it will be there so long as we have to fear death...

April 7, 2012 at 1:58 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Until they become a Scientific Law. Never say never, all scientific laws started out as theories. Your theory is debunked.

A theory is not a precursor to a law in science.

April 7, 2012 at 2:09 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

TPliske said... Religions were not started by Kings, Emperors and rulers; religion is the byproduct of the human development of consciousness.

Not correct. You are talking about spirituality. There is a difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is the consciousness of which you speak. Religion is the archaic form of politics created by Rulers, Kings, and Emperors.

  • Constantine, a Pagan Roman emperor, created the Bible during the Council of Necia.
  • King Henry the 8th, created the Church of Rome because he no longer wanted to answer to the pope. He wanted to kill and divorce as he wished.
  • King James, rewrote the bible based on the outcry's of his subjects. He locked monks in a dungeon until they had translated the Vatican codex. Coincidently, it is during this time that the Book of James was renamed. He placed the name James in the Bible because he wanted his name to appear in it.
    I could go on for a while, but religion is a man made institution which looks to structure spirituality, for political gain.
April 7, 2012 at 2:10 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Blunderdog said...The Bible is an instrument of control, it is the leather lash which is used to hold you down, to enslave you.

Blunderdog - without question, the Bible and the sacred texts of other religions have been misused. The fault, however, does not rest with the sacred texts - it rests with the people who have misused the texts. And, as I noted above, people do not need sacred texts to steal, to enslave others or to kill others.

Blunderdog said...You are talking about spirituality. There is a difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is the consciousness of which you speak. Religion is the archaic form of politics created by Rulers, Kings, and Emperors.

I agree with you on that point. However, as a person of faith, I would state it a little differently. Spirituality is the good that God brings to our relationship. In contrast, religion is the crap that we bring to it. And, too often, we use religion to draw distinctions among people whom we think are or are not worth of God's grace. One of the great difficulties with being Christian is coming to terms with the fact that God loves my enemies as much as God loves me.

April 7, 2012 at 2:15 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

lkeithlu A theory is not a precursor to a law in science.

Haha, you're right. I always get Theory and Hypothesis mixed up. Easy to do considering the english language has two definitions for "theory" (which is actually my point about the human langage being fallible.

April 7, 2012 at 2:19 p.m.
Blunderdog said...

MTJohn said "The fault, however, does not rest with the sacred texts - it rests with the people who have misused the texts. "

The fault rests with the fact that these "sacred texts" are written in man's language. Man's language is incomprehensive. Even worst than when they are edited and translated. Worst even still, when we have fought a great number of times over which books should even be included, often ending in a split in religion as was the case when Martin Luther took 13 books out of the Catholic Bible, and created the Protestant Bible.

There is a lot wrong with the Bible.

April 7, 2012 at 2:24 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Salsa said: “Looks like a hate speech cartoon.”

Only if you stretch it beyond recognition, Salsa. No, I think Clay Bennett is having a bit of fun with Senator Watson’s troublemaking Senate Bill 893. To date, much of the dialogue has been centered on dogmatic type teachers who might seize the opportunity that Senator Watson’s bill gives them to peddle religious creationism dogma in the classroom. Needless to say, some dogmatic atheist type teachers could just as easily use Senate Bill 893 to peddle their personal views on subject of creationism. Oh well, when trouble comes, we can all say we told you so.

April 7, 2012 at 2:26 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

lkeithlu, I've already forgotten the point of our side-bar, or it's relevance to this conversation.

Convenient excuse

April 7, 2012 at 2:26 p.m.
moonpie said...

I still have no objection to informing students about the theory of intelligent design. However, I would have a problem if exactly what should be said is mandated.

Why should we treat science differently than economics or psychology? There are many economic/psychologic theories. Some claim the others are dead wrong. This never stopped professors from reviewing them. Sure some professors favored some theories over others, but they usually supported their reasons based on historical examples. For me, this made economics and other courses interesting and alive.

The same is true with the best basic science instructors I ever had. They sprinkled their lectures with historical context and anecdotes.

I think mandating that creationism be given equal sway in a science class not even logical, unless you are willing to examine the science behind it, look at the strengths and weaknesses of the science behind it and compare it to the alternate theories.

Under such circumstances, I think most students will see the huge gap in scientific process that underpins creationism and intelligent design.

In fairness to those who believe in intelligent design, they do shed some light on some real gaps in evolutionary theory.

Believers in a higher power pour God into those gaps. Scientists pour unknowns into the gaps and acknowledge that there is much to be learned. When science finds an answer to a gap in prior knowledge, religious people seem to panic.... as if God is slowly being extinguished. But that is a lack of faith.

Believers are not so threatened by science if they believe that it is possible to learn some of the language of God..... mathematics, physics may just be the vocabulary used by a higher power to order our existence.

"In the beginning their was the word and the word was with God and the word was God." John 1:1

(Of course, there is another theory... that science is the tool of the devil used confuse the masses and turn them from God.)

April 7, 2012 at 2:53 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Possibly the most disgusting cartoon I've seen. BTW, you southpaws are very tolerant of opposing views. What a joke.

April 7, 2012 at 3:16 p.m.
blackwater48 said...

DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE SEPARATION OF CHURC AND STATE?

Jack Dennis cried, Possibly the most disgusting cartoon I've seen. BTW, you southpaws are very tolerant of opposing views. What a joke.

You're free to worship who you want when you want where you want. But dragging fairy tales about mythical beings into schools is outrageous. By your way of 'thinking,' then, every religion should have their own creation story included in our public school science curiculum.

Just to be tolerant.

Why not include the Apache creation myth? Or the Hindu? How about the Inca, Egyptian, or Japanese? Each has its own story about the how the world was created and life began.

Or, to your way of 'thinking,' the legislature should mandate the inclusion of the big bang theory when sunday school classes cover Genesis.

Just to be tolerant.

April 7, 2012 at 4:07 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So your saying that the closer science gets to the ultimate final answers the more it becomes philosophy. Such as the creation of the universe being beyond man's intellectual understanding and his science.

You consider quantum physics to be philosophy?

You do understand that cosmology is a science; so advanced are the ideas that it takes years to develop the technology to gather evidence to support them. However, the evidence is collected; I am not up to date with the most recent findings, but in the 80's it was the unified theory, for which scientists found confirming evidence to support it using supercolliders. But this is very much a science. Not a philosophy.

April 7, 2012 at 4:10 p.m.
yaffay said...

Terrific cartoon, Clay. Those of you who except the Genius myth as the story of creation must first decide which version to believe. Chapter 1 says God created created the beasts, fowls, and fish first, then created man and his female counterpart. Chapter 2 list the order as man, then beasts and other living creatures, then the female. Religious beliefs have no place in a science class.

April 7, 2012 at 4:20 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

blackwater48: I don't care if they teach it in school or not. Simply do not see any purpose to disrespectful cartoons. Read carefully... I DON"T give a rat's azz what you do or don't believe. Just show some respect. You lefties are all about broad thinking. Except when you disagree with it.

April 7, 2012 at 4:41 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tu_quo_que said: "Here is the Tennessee bill for you."

You forgot to also highlight section "C" of the monkey bill, Tu_quo_que. This is the section where Senator Watson gives legal cover to teachers who seek to subvert the scientific principles within a curriculum:

"Neither the state board of education, nor any public elementary or secondary school governing authority, director of schools, school system administrators, or any public elementary or secondary school principal or administrators shall prohibit any teacher in a public school system of this state from helping students understand, analyze, critique, and review in an objective manner the scientific strengths and scientific weaknesses of existing scientific theories covered in the course being taught within the curriculum framework developed by the state board of education."

April 7, 2012 at 6:44 p.m.

Blunderdog said...

“Man's language is not vast enough to have a complete sense of everything within the universe and the forces behind the universe.”

Good point.

“Religion has been the straps which has created slaves of humanity.”

Incomplete point. You are more correct about religions than you probably know. At the risk of offending you by making a distinction, however, there is one notable exception, and it did something that atheism has never had the moral spine to do: it abolished slavery. (I d-a-r-e you to conduct some primary source research to discover how it came about.)

My guess is that you grew up in a fundamentalist (and possibly abusive) environment that never gave you anything more than a superficial understanding of the teachings of the Bible and that never cared about pre-20th century history. So, you were a sitting duck for the fairy tales some professor or fellow student suckered you into believing about the role of religion in history. There are thousands of victims in this racket.

The simplistic fairy tales floating about in many history textbooks and classrooms are the life-support for poaching science teachers who deny (and ridicule) the truth that a Creator exists. Such a pity. Parents, teach your children well.

April 7, 2012 at 6:46 p.m.
Lr103 said...

@what's_wrong_with_the_world said, "however, there is one notable exception, and it did something that atheism has never had the moral spine to do: it abolished slavery. (I d-a-r-e you to conduct some primary source research to discover how it came about."

You forget, it was also religion that condoned slavery. Actually, it was the human consciousness(something that exist in all humans regardless of religion or non-religion affiliation), and not religion, that led to the abolition of slavery.

April 7, 2012 at 7:20 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your problem is the same as the religionists in that you hold to the belief that mankind's science is unlimited in it's ability to answer any question

This I have never claimed. However, I have said that science cannot address the supernatural.

You continually present as a logical argument that this law in Tennessee or any other law by any other political body in this country will allow the teaching of Intelligent Design or Creation Sciences as fact.

Many science teachers in this state already do. That is fact. Of course, you are aware that the primary lobbyist for this bill used drafts provided by the Discovery Institute.

April 7, 2012 at 7:24 p.m.
MTJohn said...

tu_quoque said...So your saying that the closer science gets to the ultimate final answers the more it becomes philosophy.

Actually, the closer that science gets to the ultimate final answers, the more it becomes mathematics.

April 7, 2012 at 7:59 p.m.
jdavid said...

47% of all dinosaur bones were hidden in the dead of night by the devil to confuse us. 31% of dinosaur bones were hidden in the dead of night by the Good Lord to test our faith. The remaining 22% seem to be actual dinosaur bones and using the ancient tests described in Leviticus (where they keep all the good stuff) we have determined that they were all Lutherans. Some of these "Lutheranosaurs" can be viewed in the Documentary series "The Flintstones" which we will be showing for the rest of the school year replacing your teacher who has been determined "too educated" and "not local enough" If you disagree with this in any way, you may take it up with our school management who accepts prayer between 11 and 12 AM on Sunday. ( A little later for Baptists who seem to be slower )

April 7, 2012 at 7:59 p.m.
chet123 said...

WORKINJAY on april 7 12:10pm POSTED...WOULD I TAKE 10,000,000 AS A CEO...WHILE WORKER GETTING 30,000A YEAR...

I GUESS THIS SUPPOSE TO BE HIS GOT YOU MOMENT

WORKINJAY...IF YOUR WIFE WASNT AROUND OR OUT OF TOWN AND A YOUNG SEXY WOMEN WHO HAPPEN TO BE YOUR NEIGHBOR CAME OVER YOUR HOUSE.....AND IF SHE TRY TO SEDUCE YOU WOULD YOU SUBMIT

IF YOU SAY NO....YOU ARE A LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE......YOU WOULD DO HER RIGHT THERE ON THE FLOOR HA HA HA HA

I KNOW HYPOCRITE LIKE YOU!

YOU ARE LOOKING FOR JUSTIFICATION TO EXPLOIT THE WEAK....YOU WONT GET IT HERE HA HA HA HA

WILL I TAKE 10 MILLION DOLLARS???....WHAT KIND OF QUESTION IS THAT???....I WOULDNT TAKE IT FROM THE WEAK TO LINE MY POCKETS

WORKINJAY....THIS WHERE YOUR PARENT AND CHURCH FAIL YOU!

April 7, 2012 at 8:06 p.m.
chet123 said...

WORKINJAY....IS THATS THE BEST YOU CAN DO....GIVE ME ANOTHER GOT YOU QUESTION!HA HA HA HA HA HA

April 7, 2012 at 8:15 p.m.
moonpie said...

Tu,

Thanks for posting the bill. I read it after Clay's last cartoon on this subject and came to the conclusion that the handwringing this bill is causing is excessive.

I'm not that concerned with who is the source behind it, either. Clearly, someone with a creationist leaning would be behind something like this, so that's not exactly shocking.

If you posted this in response to me (I don't think you were), I would emphasize the part in my previous post in which is said, "I would have a problem, if...." I did not see the "if" in the bill.

To all,

I understand that some people are worried that this will undermine the development of critical thinking skills. I think kids are more independent than some people give them credit for. It only takes one well-reasoned skeptic in a class of kids to stir debate. A lot of kids see through ham-fisted statements that try to convince by over-reaching. (This goes in all directions).

Finally, I don't think this bill will have a significant impact on which kids from Tennessee ultimately get jobs requiring scientific degrees or in research, etc. Can you imagine a college graduate trying to get an appointment to Woods Hole to study how the Cod fish was created?

Ultimately, it will be very difficult to move forward in science (emphasis on in science), on a foundation of creationism.

So, I say, teach our kids about alternative theories to evolution. If there are teachers who abuses "the objective manner" portion, then let's take action against that teacher.

April 7, 2012 at 8:26 p.m.
moonpie said...

MTJohn, AMEN! You are spot on at 7:59.

April 7, 2012 at 8:34 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I would agree moonpie, but religion is already taught in TN school science classes illegally and this bill is tainted by the Discovery Institute. It serves no purpose otherwise. Why science classes only? Why evolution and climate change? There are no weaknesses in evolution, and high school teachers all not equipped to debate climate change. Human cloning is an ethical issue, and no one has a problem with science classes discussing ethical issues.

This is another Discovery Institute backed ploy to weaken science education for religious reasons. The Governor should veto it.

April 7, 2012 at 8:43 p.m.

TPliske said... … The debate was over the irrefutably of science even in the face of religious ideology. In that, you cannot bend science/reality to your ideological will. Galileo was punished for saying that religion was wrong …

Booohaaaaahaaaaaahaaaaaa. You guys and gals are drinking some potent kool-aid. LOL

Blunderdog said... Your idea of God has been the reason that humans have been forced into ignorance. We have been held back from scientific discoveries until rise of the atheist.

You’re cracking me up. Saying that atheists discovered science is like Columbus planting a Spanish flag in the Bahamas. You’re a bunch of poachers.

April 7, 2012 at 9:09 p.m.

Lr103 said... You forget, it was also religion that condoned slavery. Actually, it was the human consciousness (something that exist in all humans regardless of religion or non-religion affiliation), and not religion, that led to the abolition of slavery.

I hate to muddy your stream of consciousness by making pesky distinctions, but “religion” doesn’t condone or endorse anything. Neither does “science.” Adherents of various religions have condoned slavery, as have many atheists. Some have even used the label “science” to justify racism and eugenics. On all these fronts, the guilty parties were fully “conscious” of what they were doing, thus they are morally culpable. It was due, not to lack of consciousness, but to their sin (something that exists in all humans regardless of religion or non-religion affiliation).

To look back on 18th century British Quakers and Evangelicals and claim that “consciousness” was responsible for their work to abolish slavery is like an atheist claiming responsibility for the advent of science. You’re poaching. It was when they became conscious that what they were doing was sinful and that even those humans whom enlightened Europeans thought to be unfit for freedom were created in God’s image, with inherent dignity – then, and only then, were measures taken to end the slave trade, and eventually slavery itself. Religion didn’t begin or end slavery. Neither did science or consciousness. A group of 18th British Christians ended one form of slavery. Thank God.

The good news has far more power for reforming society and excising its evils than either science or consciousness. Happy Easter.

April 7, 2012 at 9:47 p.m.
NatanElias said...

When liberals/leftists were the minority, all you could hear was 'academic freedom'. Now that they are the majority, they want to suppress all opinions but their own.

How hypocritical to practice the same behavior that they so zealously condemn!

April 7, 2012 at 10:02 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Ikeithlu said: "The Governor should veto it."

I agree, Ikeithlu. What I find odd about this Senate bill is that a majority of mainstream religious organizations have already acknowledged evolution as a foundational scientific truth, which makes you wonder why these lawmakers are trying - as members of Tennessee’s scientific community so aptly point out - to roll the clock back to 1925:

“Scientists in Tennessee and the American Association for the Advancement of Science are asking Haslam to veto the bill, saying that evolution is established science that shouldn't be taught as a controversy.

"The Tennessee legislature is doing the unbelievable: attempting to roll the clock back to 1925 by attempting to insert religious beliefs in the teaching of science," three Tennessee scientists wrote in an op-ed column in The Tennessean.

The three writers hold doctorate degrees and are members of the National Academy of Sciences: Roger D. Cone and Jon Kaas of Vanderbilt University and Robert G. Webster of St. Jude Children's Research Hospital.

They argue that the law is unnecessary and likely to provide expensive legal fights and hurt the economy in Tennessee, which is home to Oak Ridge National Laboratory.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/03/tennessee-evolution-bill-haslam_n_1401321.html?ref=politics

April 7, 2012 at 10:11 p.m.
SavartiTN said...

I'd say that, with the last two years of legislative inanity in Tennessee, Clay is right on target.

April 7, 2012 at 11:38 p.m.
onetinsoldier said...

Happy first Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox. Cristianity should be classified as a schedule 1 drug, and its users treated with large doses of education. Bless their ignorant hearts.

April 8, 2012 at 12:24 a.m.
SavartiTN said...

Good point onetinsoldier.

April 8, 2012 at 1:15 a.m.
MTJohn said...

onetinsoldier said...Happy first Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox. Cristianity should be classified as a schedule 1 drug, and its users treated with large doses of education. Bless their ignorant hearts.

In spite of being the beneficiary of a massive dose of education, I will joyfully and confidently continue in my addiction. May you also experience blessings on this first Sunday after the first full moon following the spring equinox - however you choose to commemorate the event.

April 8, 2012 at 7:31 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

BTW … it seems you have indicated previously that you are or were a member of the teaching profession. If that is so then you seem to be indicating the profession is highly populated by teacher that are either incompetent or law breakers.

They don't consider themselves lawbreakers, but good Christians. They will continue as long as no one challenges them, and of course when Christians threaten violence when someone complains that the establishment clause is violated, you can see why no one speaks up.

You didn’t have to claim it as you have clearly implied it and in fact you have done so in this response. By stating “that science cannot address the supernatural” you are implying that it can address all natural phenomenons which it is not capable of doing with unlimited ability

That's a bit of a stretch. I never claimed that science can answer address all natural phenomena. Clearly there are things that are real that science cannot answer, such as why I like the color green.

April 8, 2012 at 8:50 a.m.
D3 said...

I believe the cartoonist has captures the self-exhalation of the liberal elitist attitudes, illustrated by some previous comments, where they dispose of any contrary belief as illiterate. But in this very area truly distinguished individuals uphold a belief in creation based upon scientific knowledge. Take Dr. Benjamin Carson, the noted chief of pediatric neurosurgery at John Hopkins. His credentials as Member of the Alpha & Omega Honor Medical Society, the Academy of Achievement, Institute of Medicine United States National Academy of Science, winner of Horatio Alger Association of Distinguished Americans and winner of the Presidential Medal of Freedom. In evaluating the theory of evolution based upon his unparalleled knowledge of the human brain he determined it is more probable for a tornado after going through a junkyard to leave a fully operating Boeing 747 in it’s wake the theory of evolution to have occurred.

April 8, 2012 at 9:34 a.m.
MTJohn said...

D3 said...In evaluating the theory of evolution based upon his unparalleled knowledge of the human brain he determined it is more probable for a tornado after going through a junkyard to leave a fully operating Boeing 747 in it’s wake the theory of evolution to have occurred.

I do not disagree with his analogy. However, two points are relevant to it. The first is that his unparalleled knowledge of the human brain is interdependent with lessons learned from the theory of evolution, regardless of whether he chooses to acknowledge it. The second is that the notion of a divine power at work in creation which he implies(a notion with which I happen to agree) is outside the realm of science. Moreover, the work of that divine power is not contradicted by the theory of evolution.

April 8, 2012 at 9:41 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tu_quo_que said: “You quoted that section accurately and completely but you have provided no analysis of it showing how I.D and C.S. will be allowed to be taught in the schools as science.”

I did not see a need to provide an “analysis” because I believe Section C of Senate Bill 893 is self-explanatory, Tu_quo_que. Your emphasis on Section D is meaningless because Section C muddies the water and essentially negates what Section D says.

I say this because the people who created and advocate for the Intelligent Design proposition claim it’s an "an evidence-based scientific theory about life's origins" rather than "a religious-based" idea. Needless to say, the creators and advocates of the Intelligent Design proposition also claim that the Intelligent Designer of the universe is the Christian God.

The bottom line is Senator Watson and Tennessee’s Republican lawmakers are playing word games with us, which is essentially dishonest. They are peddling a religious propsition about life’s origins under the guise of alleged “evidence-based scientific theory.”

April 8, 2012 at 10:12 a.m.
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