published Wednesday, December 12th, 2012

Bad News

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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Salsa said...

I guess they never should have joined la Unión.

December 12, 2012 at 12:04 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Salsa,

You don't get it.

December 12, 2012 at 12:59 a.m.
MasterBlaster said...

Neither does anybody in Michigan who's ever voted Republican...

December 12, 2012 at 4:48 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

GOP cartoon? Mr Bennett is admitting that unions (though useful for, say, training and balance of power) can sometimes hinder the production of wealth, so forcing unions to earn their keep may be a good idea?

December 12, 2012 at 6:01 a.m.
EaTn said...

The unions have directly or indirectly been a major force in elevating the middle-class in this country the past few decades. Their downfall is just another link in the global economy which has resulted in a levelling of the working class while elevating the elite, much like other third-world countries. History proves that this situation will not last forever.

December 12, 2012 at 6:34 a.m.
samuelbaker67 said...

Unions are obsolete, better known as rackets! They have hindered more folks than they have ever helped and the funny thing is they make workers complacent and lazy because they cannot get fired if the worker is in a union...and the only people that make money in the unions are the upper management...look at what happen to hostess and how well their union protected them....Look at what happened in Minnesota and Wisconsin when they lifted their pro union laws and made in a right to work state...85% of the work force stopped paying union dues. By the way, it is also called a free market, creating competion, and capitalism! I do have to agree with the cartoon though, maybe now some of our work will come home! Yee Yee!!!

December 12, 2012 at 7:01 a.m.
joneses said...

Michigan has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country because of socialist union members whose average pay at the Chrysler plants is $59.00 per hour. Now the citizens of Michigan have a choice. This was a vote for freedom for all the citizens of Michigan. Screw the unions and stop buying this union made crap!

December 12, 2012 at 7:04 a.m.
dude_abides said...

A plea to all you conservatives:

Please don't shoot up any more malls! Please just turn the gun on yourself, since that's what you end up doing after killing a few innocent people. Leave us a note telling us what you were planning, and how you decided eliminate the threat (yourself), and we will always remember you as an action hero. If there happen to be a couple of you conservatives who are not planning mass shootings, please ignore the aforementioned plea.

December 12, 2012 at 7:19 a.m.
delmar said...

AndrewLohr said... "GOP cartoon? Mr Bennett is admitting that unions (though useful for, say, training and balance of power) can sometimes hinder the production of wealth, so forcing unions to earn their keep may be a good idea?"

Not sure I understand your statements. How do unions sometimes hinder the production of wealth and what do you mean by "earn their keep"?

December 12, 2012 at 7:46 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Andrew - Unions do not affect the production of wealth. They do hinder the upward distribution of wealth.

December 12, 2012 at 8:42 a.m.
limric said...

Whenever you hear someone on the right say something like, “This was a vote for freedom for all the citizens of Michigan”, break out the KY jelly. Because they’re going to jam that- “big “red, white and blue dick up your a$$holes again.” George Carlin (Paraphrased)

San Francisco State University professor John Logan dismantles worker "freedom."

[“Despite the unsubstantiated claims of its anti-union supporters, lower wages and poorer labor standards—including higher workplace fatality rates—are the only proven results of right-to-work legislation.

Right-to-work legislation would be a disaster for workers in Michigan. But even worse for American workers is the prospect of Republican lawmakers in the neighboring states of Ohio and Pennsylvania taking advantage of the situation—arguing that because Indiana and Michigan have passed right-to-work, they will be at a competitive disadvantage unless they follow suit—to launch their own ideological attacks on unions.

President Obama stated, “These so-called ‘right-to-work' laws, they don't have to do with economics; they have everything to do with politics.” And, "right to work for less money." This gets to the heart of the issue. Right-to-work won’t help Michigan’s economy or its workers, but it will lower wages and worsen labor standards. And it will damage the principal organizations in Michigan that give a political voice to workers, instead of to billionaires, and that, of course, is its true purpose.”]

So who’s allowed to play the Capitalism game?

Republicans believe that 'greed is good' right? I mean it's all they talk about: money, vast accumulation of wealth, Ayn Rand style. Make cash at all costs. Well, ok then, what is the problem with workers doing WHATEVER it takes to raise their income? Think about it - if you go around telling people that anything you do to give yourself more money is reasonable AND moral, then you can't really disparage workers and unions from doing exactly that. Capitalism TOLD them, and by example, to do anything/everything necessary to gain more money for themselves. Unions are merely doing what Rand told them they should be doing. Enlightened self-interest is a GOP core value...so why is it wrong for Unions to act in the best interest of their workers? Capitalists talk a good game, but the game is rigged, and only allowed to be played by the elite.

P.S. Samuelbaker67’s veiled assertion that the unions are to blame for Hostess’s demise is completely wrong.

December 12, 2012 at 9:04 a.m.
tderng said...

dude_abides...Do you know something about this recent mall shooting that the rest of America doesn't? The shooter hasn't been identified yet. Were you somehow involved?Please contact the police in Clackamas Oregon with your information. If you know that he was a conservative then you must know him,perhaps even knew in advance this was going to happen. Why didn't you tell someone about this nut before this happened? This is not something you should allow so as to score political points.If you were simply bloviating please ignore this post.

December 12, 2012 at 9:15 a.m.
HiDef said...

Samuelbaker67’s- see link below...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/hostess.asp

And why do anti-union people always make the claim that union bosses are the only ones making the money? In my union, our leaders pay is voted on by the union members...

December 12, 2012 at 9:23 a.m.
acerigger said...

Limric, thanks for that post @ 9:04.

December 12, 2012 at 9:32 a.m.
Walden said...

Americans can only hope so! I think Clay just unveiled the new liberal mantra. By busting Union thuggery and making jobs easier to create in America, we are being unfair to the poor souls in Latin America and China and other places where so many American jobs had previously been "outsourced." Hilarious.

December 12, 2012 at 9:35 a.m.
MasterChefLen said...

Literal interpretation of the opinion author's illustration would imply that he is somehow against jobs coming back to the U.S.

December 12, 2012 at 9:44 a.m.
patriot1 said...

This right to work legislation may destroy Detroit....Oh wait, forget that!!

December 12, 2012 at 10:05 a.m.
MTJohn said...

MasterChefLen said..."Literal interpretation of the opinion author's illustration would imply that he is somehow against jobs coming back to the U.S."

...and, don't forget that a lot of jobs came to our shores when companies based here were lawfully engaged in the slave trade.

December 12, 2012 at 10:19 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

dude_: That was low-life. Even coming from scum like you.

December 12, 2012 at 10:20 a.m.
bluesky said...

I agree with Joneses about unions however I don't think american made products are crap just because they're made buy unions as he does, products made by non-union American workers are the same as union made so I guess he only buy products not made in the US.

December 12, 2012 at 10:37 a.m.
chatt_man said...

No, tderng, dude_abides is just professing his political ignorance, demonstrating his blinding ideological slant, and fulfilling his daily allegiance to his mentors Bill Maher and Rachel Maddow.

December 12, 2012 at 10:37 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, from reading these verses below do you still believe that practicing homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God?

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

December 12, 2012 at 10:58 a.m.
delmar said...

Excellent post limric, spot on. Can't understand the whine about union folks being overpaid. I can only assume that it is jealousy, that they can't stand the fact that somebody is doing as well or better than they are. Mind you, they don't care if someone gets ahead, they just don't want them getting ahead of them. Must be a carryover from their adolescent days when they were always in competition with their siblings and always afraid that their brothers and/or sisters were getting something they weren't. Bunch of cry babies living in Double Standardville, U.S.A.

December 12, 2012 at 10:58 a.m.
delmar said...

Oh boy,, here we go again with the bible lesson. (big eye roll)

December 12, 2012 at 11 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Finally, states are growing a pair of balls. I work, I don't need no stinkin union suit eight states away wasting my dues and telling me when and how I can work. I'm plenty capable of bargaining for myself.

December 12, 2012 at 11:26 a.m.

Don't worry, the coyotes will soon be there to help all of those workers find jobs...by transporting them to Michigan.

December 12, 2012 at 11:28 a.m.
Maximus said...

Dude, Get your facts right, most of the mall shootings, etc. have either been mental cases off their meds (like you sometimes), islamic terrorists or radical left wing ideologs (like you). Dude and Jesse, please stay away from guns and stay on your meds. Thanks, and oh yea, Dude stay away from malls. And finally, my greatest wish for the New Year is that Dear Leader Welfare Pimp Daddy Union Organizer Blue Hawaii Obama can make everything fair and no one, not anybody, not anyone, will ever, ever get their feelings hurt again. Merry Christmas To All and To All A Goodnight!

December 12, 2012 at 12:02 p.m.
miraweb said...

The Best Government Money Can Buy

There is a problem when corporations have such a tight hold on legislatures.

It is the same problem that resulted in HSBC being declared "too big to jail" even when it admitted laundering money for violent Mexican drug cartels and setting itself up as the underground middle-man for Iran, Libya, and Sudan. HSBC made $16.8 billion in profits and managed to magically funnel $7 billion through its Mexican banks.

The fine - $1.9 billion plus a short apology from the CEO Stuart Gulliver, "We have said we are profoundly sorry for them, and we do so again."

All better!!!

http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/10/news/companies/hsbc-money-laundering/

December 12, 2012 at 12:59 p.m.
chatt_man said...

Now Maximus, you know we can't expect no one to ever get their feelings hurt, or things to always be fair. If we ever took that approach, we would raise a country of dependents, in which people that could work would choose not to work. Then there wouldn't be enough tax paying producers to cover the people that truly do deserve the help, without soaking the middle class workers because the rich couldn't fund it all. And then those people that could work, but choose not to, would lose their self esteem and their feeling of self worth, and then we'd be in a hell of a mess. Oh, wait...we're already there.

Actually, It appears that not all lose their self esteem, some of them are quite happy with other people supporting them.

December 12, 2012 at 1:03 p.m.
chatt_man said...

miraweb, your statement "There is a problem when corporations have such a tight hold on legislatures" is absolutely correct.

December 12, 2012 at 1:05 p.m.

I suppose we could live in a world where we pretend that people's hurt feelings are of no importance.

Oh wait, isn't that sociopathy?

You can make absurd arguments all you want about hurting nobody's feelings, but that doesn't mean no wrong can be corrected.

Even somebody like Scalia should be able to understand that. Yeah, he'd rather not, he'd just rather seem like he's profound and wise when he's spewing nonsense.

December 12, 2012 at 1:12 p.m.
whatsnottaken said...

And your criminally connected union fatcats funnel money to libtards and the syndicate, living the high-life until they, like the corporations they fight, go broke and the worker is left with nothing. Great system.

December 12, 2012 at 1:20 p.m.
chatt_man said...

Yes, happy, that wouldn't be good either. That's part of the problem we have now...people argue the extremities. When I say "we can't expect no one to ever get their feelings hurt, or things to always be fair, some people take that to mean I don't care who's feelings get hurt, or whether it's fair to anyone but me. And that's not the case. We need sensible people to discuss things rationally, and consider all people, not just what they're interested in for themselves. It happens on both sides.

December 12, 2012 at 1:24 p.m.
tderng said...

MTJohn...what companies currently in business actively engaged in the slave trade?

December 12, 2012 at 1:30 p.m.
Leaf said...

Unions have been very important historically and were a major force in expanding the middle class - the driving force of the economy in this country and the group of people that make this country great. The world used to envy our middle class.

Now, unions are not as necessary to fill that role because the rights union members originally fought and died for have been extended to all people in the United States through laws and regulations.

At the moment, however, there is another war being waged on the middle class by the Corporatocracy. Now though, instead of using Pinkertons to murder union members, they are using their vast wealth to buy politicians. I don't think unions can fight this war effectively. I'm not sure who can, now that the news and Supreme Court have been bought. (Citizens United)

By the way, why is the TFP website so terrible?

December 12, 2012 at 1:35 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

This "Right to Work" BS is just another glaring example of the extent to which corporate America is pulling the strings of our teabagging politicians. Just like Scott Walker in Wisconsin is a puppet of the Koch brothers and other corporate fat cats, Rick Snyder in Michigan is following suit. Now we have two states that were former bastions of strong unions, states that respected the rights of workers to make a decent wage, now bowing down to the corporate puppeteers pulling the strings of their wimpy governors. What they are calling "right to work" is in fact their right to stick it to the worker any way they see fit. They're standing tall and proud after their self-serving victory, sneering and waving a huge ramrod as they shout, "See, we have the right to treat you like sh#t if we want to, to pay you whatever paltry stinkin' wages we see fit, and to stick this as far up your butts as we want to!" And the union hating, boot-licking corporate-worshiping weenies are bending over and saying, "Stick it to us any way you want to, lord and master! We love you and hope to be you one day! We will gladly work for minimum wage or even less if it means you will make more and more and more and more. We give you our blood, sweat, and tears because we all know that's the American way! Greed is good! God bless greed and God bless America!"

Enjoy your new "Right to Work" law, you teabagging dimwits.

December 12, 2012 at 2:02 p.m.
samuelbaker67 said...

limric and hidef are obviously union employees, and your san fransisco professor is probably in a teachers union.... when you two get yourself a real competitive job then maybe you will make some real money and you can save all that cash you have been paying your union bosses that sit back and eat doughnuts and count your money...by the way, and limric as far as your paragraph on capitalism, if "workers" get out and work hard and make their companies grow and prosper they wont need anyone to negotiate their pay because it will get raised on its on, you may want to give that a try, you may not make $50 an hour for sweeping the floor at GM but then again who wouldnt be mad for losing a job like that, right??? and your comment on hostess is total horse* too...the hostess union represenative did even show up to court to combat the management of hostess. The dumb union negotiators were telling their members that hostess was to be sold and that there were many bidders...turns out there were NONE!!! Know why?? No buyer or private equity company is going to put up with union labor anymore. How about them apples? Do your homework, hidef, snopes doesnt do it, the numbers do...and guess what your union cronies cost all those folks their jobs and pensions...thanks unions!! Unions do not make the work place more competitive they make it complacent...its funny to drive around and see all the "shame on" these company signs around town because they did not use union labor and the slobs that are asleep beside the signs in lounge chairs that are union members. hmmmm...

Lastly, why in the world do you think caterpillar and boeing are coming to the south??? To get away from unions. The CEOs said the quality of work produced in the new plants exceeded the plants run by unions and its cheaper...I guess your san fransico professor ignored those companies investor conferences but then again that professor may have been busy doing something else in san fransisco....Interesting that the government and unions tried to stop them from moving to new manufacturing sites too. Im sure the unions were worried about the safety and wages of the southern workers...and what about the unions trying to unionize the walmart employees with rallies after thanksgiving??? well, turns out the facts are, hidef, that 3 employees showed up for the rallies and the rest were paid union protestors...wow!

December 12, 2012 at 2:17 p.m.
miraweb said...

Leaf raises an interesting point - Now, unions are not as necessary to fill that role because the rights union members originally fought and died for have been extended to all people in the United States through laws and regulations.

There are two parts to every law - a definition and an enforcement mechanism.

Equal pay for women is the law. The enforcement mechanism is badly broken. Women make 30% less than men.

No money laundering is the law. The enforcement mechanism is badly broken. Violent criminal enterprises and terrorists can use major banks to expand their reach.

Foreclosures require a valid mortgage and a paper trail. The enforcement mechanism is badly broken. The world economy was tipped into a death spiral.

Enforcement can be through the law, through regulation, and through private means - such as mediation. One thing that unions do is provide shared resources that can identify problems, negotiate grievances, and even provide legal resources to workers who could not afford them otherwise.

If corporations have special access to the courts but employees can not afford it, bad things begin to happen.

Every small gain in the law that a union worked hard to get can be undone in a week - as Michigan proves.

December 12, 2012 at 2:19 p.m.
limric said...

whatsnottaken said... “I don't need no stinkin union suit eight states away wasting my dues and telling me when and how I can work. I'm plenty capable of bargaining for myself.”

Ok………………………

ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE RIGHT TO WORK STATE

“Miss Crabtree, Send in Mr. whatsnottaken”

“Yes Mr. Smithers.”

“So Mr. whatsnottaken whats on your mind?”

“Well sir, I’ve been with the company now for 10 years. I’m a very good worker and I think it’s not too much to ask for a raise about now.”

“NO!” says Mr.Smithers in a dismissive tone. “Now if you don’t mind I have other things to attend to… but thank you for coming by.”

“Yes sir” creaks Mr. whatsnottaken.


A few weeks later whatsnottaken is driving the forklift on the shop floor, turns a corner and brushes against an I-beam, scraping some of the paint off. Jesse saw this and the two of them stare at it for a few minutes – conclude very little damage was done and continue back to their stations on the line.

Before splitting off Jesse says, “HEY, there’s some paint in the supply room. I’ll fix it up after my shift.”

“THANKS.” yells whatsnottaken. “I owe you a beer!”

The now ever present surveillance cameras caught this also - and before Jesse could finish his shift and get the paint, Mr. Smithers sent the maintenance crew to patch up the scrape.


“Miss Crabtree, Send in Mr. whatsnottaken and Mr. Jesse”

“Yes Mr. Smithers.”

“Mr. whatsnottaken. Did you recently bash MY forklift into a ceiling beam?”

“Well I ah…It was only a scratch!”

“Mr. Jesse. Did you see this accident but failed to report it?”

“Well I ah…I was going to fix it later! - but maintenance already did it. I swear!!”

“Yes yes yes I’m sure you were. This gentlemen cost the company unnecessary man hours and materials.” I have no choice but to let you go.”

“But but but.”


“Miss Crabtree.”

“Yes Mr. Smithers.”

“I have two new applications here. Send in that Pedro and the Raul”

Still plenty capable of bargaining for yourself? Pay your dues whatsnottaken.

December 12, 2012 at 2:22 p.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Very capable. Very content. Very productive. Dues paid in the form of hard work. Never given a dime to Jimmy Hoffa or junior and doing just fine.

December 12, 2012 at 2:25 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

"...if 'workers' get out and work hard and make their companies grow and prosper they wont need anyone to negotiate their pay because it will get raised on its on." - samuelbaker67

Are you a natural comedian or are you just trying to be funny? Yes, let's make a list of all those successful companies that, year after year, see their profits increase and then pass a large part of those profits on to their employees. That list would be pitifully small. Walmart and most of the big-box stores keep making obscenely huge profits year after year but a typical WM employee makes $8/hr. after being there for several years. And sadly almost all of corporate America treats its employees like WM does.

Yes, there are some few corporations that treat their employees well and share the fruits of their gains with them, but they are the exception, not the rule. Hard work and dedication to one's employer used to pay off, once upon a time, back when we had a strong middle class and the American Dream was more accessible to more people, and CEOs were not so intent on making 300 times what the average worker makes. But those days are long gone and we have somehow bought into the mindset that the few at the top are supposed to make obscenely huge amounts of money and the average worker is just a peon, not deserving of being paid a decent wage.

Samuelbaker, I hope you are aware that those TV shows you seem to have your head stuck in, "Ozzie and Harriet" and "Leave it to Beaver" are reruns. America is not that way any more.

December 12, 2012 at 2:54 p.m.
jesse said...

funny,limric!

Over the years i've belonged to the iron workers,teamsters and police unions!None of them did anything for me except take my dues money! I didn't join because i wanted to but because it was required to get the job! How many roadway and yellow fright rigs do you see on the road now??

December 12, 2012 at 2:59 p.m.
delmar said...

Wasting your time limric, some people are so deeply programed to only believe the bs they are fed that they will never get it.

Case in point; samuelbaker67 said... "The CEOs said the quality of work produced in the new plants exceeded the plants run by unions and its cheaper.."

December 12, 2012 at 3:03 p.m.
MTJohn said...

tderng said..."MTJohn...what companies currently in business actively engaged in the slave trade?"

You might start with garment companies, based in the Marianas, which market their products with that have "made in the USA" on them. Remember Jack Abramhoff?

I'm not sure how to distinguish between slavery and indentured service. With that caveat, you might take a look and the practices in some of the factories that employ people in jobs that have been off-shored from the United States. For some reason, the reports of a fire in a factory in Bangladesh comes to mind.

December 12, 2012 at 3:07 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Whatsnottaken, you suffer from the "I'm-fine-what's-all-the-fuss-about" syndrome. Just because you have yours, and your little boat hasn't been rocked by any waves you think it's fine for everybody, or else you just choose to turn your eyes away and ignore the problems. Most conservatives are like that. It helps them to live more comfortably in their little bubble that way. But things like what limric described happen all the time. It's only a matter of time before that little row boat your floating complacently down the stream in gets rocked in such a way that your best efforts will not be enough to smooth the waters again.

But row, row, row, your boat, WNT, gently down that stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily...you are truly lost in a dream. You been hanging out with samuelbaker, both of you watching too much of the Beav maybe?

December 12, 2012 at 3:29 p.m.
chatt_man said...

MTJohn, Seems like if your examples of the Mariana Islands and Bangladesh were affected by our discussions and laws pertaining to labor unions, they would be protected by our slave trade laws. Sorry, sir, I believe that's a stretch at best.

December 12, 2012 at 3:33 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Chatt_man - I made no reference to the labor laws and labor unions. It was just a reference to the behavior of corporate executives. Since the beginning of time, corporate managers have gone to great lengths to line their own pockets at the expense of the labor they employ.

And, as a footnote, the folks employed by the garment industry should be protected by U.S. laws. The sad fact is that they haven't been. It has been brought to our attention and we have intentionally turned a blind eye.

December 12, 2012 at 3:46 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

rickyroo: I knew you were stupid. Now I see that you're silly too.

December 12, 2012 at 3:49 p.m.
tderng said...

MTJohn...Perhaps I should have said what U.S. companies currently doing business engaged in the slave trade?

You know,I don't think I'll be buying any Chrysler cars in the future since I know for a fact that they are being assembled by alcoholics and drug addicts.Since they apparently can't be fired because they're in a union.

December 12, 2012 at 3:56 p.m.
jesse said...

A good example of union greed!

In the late 70's i hauled steel out of the Bethleham mill at Sparrows Point Md. The work rules the union had worked like this:On a rolling mill they had a red button to stop the mill and a green button to start it,the green button pusher was NOT allowed to hit the red button ,they had to call in a red button pusher! Bethleham Steel is now history ,along w/ most of the steel ind.in the U.S.A!

December 12, 2012 at 4:08 p.m.
limric said...

Jesse,

I understand what you’re saying. Conversely, my brother in law is a journeyman electrician in a big northern city. He works on skyscrapers, bridges etc. He gets furloughed from the middle of November till about March. The union pays his salary for those months. My best friend growing up is in the Teamsters. His son had a bad motorcycle crash some years ago and he is now a paraplegic. His union paid 100% of his medical and rehabilitation expenses. See where I’m going here.

Whatsnottaken, “Very capable. Very content. Very productive.” Very good. I’m glad for you and can’t argue with content and productive. And I’m sure you are quite capable.

The unions ARE NOT your enemies. While not totally virtuous, it is not they that crashed the economy; they did not give away our technology; they did not send jobs overseas; they did not design second rate products. Demonizing unions is diversionary and a growing sport for the elites. Refer to the video, “LOOK OVER THERE!”

Notice how the police and firefighters are exempt from ‘right to work’ laws in Michigan. Why? Hmm.

P.S. Samuelbaker67’s veiled assertion that the unions are to blame for Hostess’s demise is STILL completely wrong.

December 12, 2012 at 4:15 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

Exodus 32:27 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: "Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor."

Numbers 22:28 Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"

Deuteronomy 23:13 As part of your equipment have something to dig with, and when you relieve yourself, dig a hole and cover up your excrement.

Ezekiel 23:20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Conservative just might be on to something here. Quoting bible verses that have absolutely nothing to do with what anyone is talking about is strangely entertaining. It's kind of a bible belt friendly form of Dadaism.

December 12, 2012 at 4:20 p.m.
patriot1 said...

Rickydoodoo....These large stores like WalMart and big corporations you're so down on, do you own stock in them? If not why is it any of your business what they pay their CEOs. If you do own stock, you can vote your shares against their compensation. If you don't like WalMart you're free not to spend your money there. Great country, isn't it?

December 12, 2012 at 4:25 p.m.
alprova said...

Jesse wrote: "How many roadway and yellow fright rigs do you see on the road now??"

Jesse, you should know that Roadway and Yellow merged nine years ago this very month, and that they still employ 55,000 people.

"Bethleham Steel is now history ,along w/ most of the steel ind.in the U.S.A!"

While it is fair to assume that the unions decimated many of the American steel manufacturers, that isn't the entire story, is it?

Japan and China have been importing cheap steel for many years into the U.S., which has added a layer of competitive forces which led to the demise of several steel companies in the U.S.

I'm no fan of unions, but I do fear what will ensue if they all disappear. Right to work and at-will laws are definitely slanted to give God-like powers to employers.

In my opinion, there will be a cause and effect to such legislation. For sure, employers will be able to have more powers over their employees, but employees will be left with no reason to be loyal to their employer, and that is a very sad state of affairs, if you ask me.

People do their very best when they feel secure in their jobs. They have good reason to excel at whatever it is that they do. Take that away from them, and job quality is definitely going to suffer.

December 12, 2012 at 4:32 p.m.
jesse said...

I know that Al BUT they are on the verge again and you never see their trucks around here! Since i retired off the road i don't travel and they may still be in some parts of the country but not like they were!

I had a truck leased to their Special Commod.division back in the 70's and even then the handwriting was on the wall! Made some serious bucks w/them but it couldn't last and they finally folded that division!

W/the steel co. the money they needed to put into modernizing their mills they were doling out to the imployees in wages BUT mostly it was the benifit packages thek hurt them the worsrt. The Japanese could produce steel so much cheaper w/their modern mills the U.S. co.couldn't compete!

December 12, 2012 at 4:57 p.m.
dao1980 said...

GDawg I like those random verses. Kinda lightens the mood.

Your verse from Numbers reminds me of an old preacher joke I heard many many moons ago.

Q: Who was the most elastic man in the bible?

A: Balem.. he tied his ass to a tree and walked three miles. WAKA WAKA

December 12, 2012 at 5:01 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

No, it's not a great country, Patriot...not as long as we have so many brain-dead, corporate-loving ass kissers like you who think it's perfectly acceptable for a business model like Walmart's to flourish, just because it can get away with it. Walmart CEO Mike Dunne made $18.7 million in 2010. That's a CEO-to-employee pay ratio of 717-to-1! People like you say "Yeehaw! Ain't America great, that somebody can make that much money," and you are perfectly fine with accepting the lie that somehow they deserve it because of all their "hard work," "education," or whatever other BS.

Walmart employs 1.5 million Americans. Can you imagine what a shot in the arm it would be to the economy if they paid their employees a decent wage?! They would have enough money to pump it right back into circulation, able to buy not only more of Walmart's own products but products and services everywhere. And if Walmart paid their employees a decent wage, it would have a ripple effect on every other big-box retailer throughout the country. Sure, prices would have to go up on the goods, but they wouldn't have to go up that much, and I would be willing to pay a few bucks more for a flat-screen TV if it meant more prosperity for everybody, not just the fat-cat CEOs or the Waltons.

December 12, 2012 at 5:46 p.m.
MTJohn said...

tderng said..."Perhaps I should have said what U.S. companies currently doing business engaged in the slave trade?"

tderng - In restating your question, do you draw a distinction between U.S. companies and multi-national corporations with a significant U.S. presence?

December 12, 2012 at 5:53 p.m.
MTJohn said...

limric said..."Notice how the police and firefighters are exempt from ‘right to work’ laws in Michigan. Why? Hmm."

Based on tderng's logic, it would be that drunkards and drug addicts make for good police and firefighters.

December 12, 2012 at 5:57 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

MtJohn said: “take a look and the practices in some of the factories that employ people in jobs that have been off-shored from the United States. For some reason, the reports of a fire in a factory in Bangladesh comes to mind.

Rickyroo said: Walmart and most of the big-box stores keep making obscenely huge profits year after year but a typical WM employee makes $8/hr. after being there for several years. And sadly almost all of corporate America treats its employees like WM does.

Speaking of Walmart and horrific off shore corporate labor practices, there was a good commentary just recently in the NYT in regard to those garment factory fires:

“The deaths of about 400 workers in two recent fires at Asian garment factories that made clothes for American and European brands should outrage consumers and become a rallying cry for higher safety standards.

Accounts of the fires, in Bangladesh and Pakistan, clearly show that there would have been few, if any, deaths had the factories met basic safety standards. Owners of both factories had barred windows . . . neither building had usable or safe fire exits, making it impossible for the workers to escape the flames and smoke. At the Bangladesh factory, Tazreen Fashions, managers initially stopped workers from leaving by dismissing a fire warning as a false alarm....

News reports about an April 2011 meeting on factory safety in Bangladesh appear to indicate that Walmart and other retailers have been unwilling to pay the higher prices for clothes that would be needed to make factories safer. Labor groups say a roughly 3 percent annual increase in prices paid to the factories would be sufficient to make the needed improvements. . .

Most clothing brands and retailers also seem unwilling to commit to changes that could improve safety for workers who earn as little as $37 a month in places like Bangladesh. Companies continue to advocate the use of voluntary auditing and inspection regimes that are not up to the challenge.

In the case of Tazreen Fashions, Walmart says it stopped ordering clothes from the factory after its auditors found safety violations. Nevertheless, orders from Walmart channeled through subcontractors found their way to the factory. If companies insist on using such daisy-chain outsourcing, they must make sure every link in the chain is governed by the same rules, and they cannot be willfully ignorant of how their contractors operate.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/10/opinion/fire-safety-in-garment-factories.html?hp

December 12, 2012 at 6:12 p.m.
tderng said...

MTJohn...My distinction about U.S. companies is because we are talking about U.S. unions.We cannot control what workers in other countries are paid or their workers conditions other than to not buy their goods.

Can police and firefighters keep their jobs after being filmed drinking and smoking weed on the job? If not your last post is just assinine. I was pointing out that workers who were filmed drinking and smoking pot while on a break got their jobs back. So now I know what kind of workers Chrystler has assembling their cars. Doesn't lead me to have much confidence in them.

December 12, 2012 at 6:14 p.m.
MTJohn said...

tderng - I've been talking about companies that do business in the United States.

My comment about police and firefighters was tongue-in-cheek.

tu_q - I'm not talking about forcing U.S. social standards and values on foreign countries. I'm talking about corporations that do business in this country while also engaging in egregious labor practices in other countries.

December 12, 2012 at 6:38 p.m.
miraweb said...

The rest of 2012 (from Google):

December 12, 2012 at 6:42 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Until you've worked across the table from union leaders, you'll never know how sorry they are. It's not only the wages, it's the work rules that kills bidness. Some are almost funny. Yeah, for the most part, they are lazy thugs running the unions.

December 12, 2012 at 6:54 p.m.
dude_abides said...

tderng... you mean there's been another one?

December 12, 2012 at 7:16 p.m.
alprova said...

Jesse wrote: "I know that Al BUT they are on the verge again and you never see their trucks around here!"

YRC has a big terminal just off I-75, just inside Georgia at the Cloud Springs Road exit, which has been there for years. YRC serves hub cities, for the most part, but they are still going strong.

YRC and the remaining LTL carriers tend to serve large businesses. Fed-Ex & UPS have taken over the small business market. I receive shipments by the latter two just about every day.

"I had a truck leased to their Special Commod.division back in the 70's and even then the handwriting was on the wall! Made some serious bucks w/them but it couldn't last and they finally folded that division!"

Deregulation hit trucking hard, starting in 1980. When the ICC opened the doors to anyone and everyone with a few bucks in their pockets, the industry nosedived. You can't lay it all at the feet of the unions.

December 12, 2012 at 7:18 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Jack_Dennis said..."Yeah, for the most part, they are lazy thugs running the unions."

You might be right, Jack - sort of like labor's response to the lazy thugs running the corporations that employ the laborers.

The wisdom in our Constitution is the recognition that our country can only function as the founders intended if there is measure of balance. We have big government and big labor in this country because both are a response to big business is the consequent of a system that promotes capitalism. So, we have a three legged stool. Each of the legs may be corrupt but the stool remains erect as long as we have the three legs with any two keeping the third somewhat in check. But, we also have a circumstance in which one of the legs is actively working to cut the other two legs out from under the stool. Ir it is successful, 98% of the country will suffer.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/32399_526612084016441_1837837291_n.jpg

http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workplace/twinkie-ceo-admits-company-took-employees-pensions-and-put-it

December 12, 2012 at 7:24 p.m.
alprova said...

tderng wrote: "We cannot control what workers in other countries are paid or their workers conditions other than to not buy their goods."

That's a nice thought, but how many people in this nation are aware, or who even care, to educate themselves to what workers in other nations are subjected to. Americans, for the most part, make purchasing decisions based on price. What they don't know, makes no matter to them.

"I was pointing out that workers who were filmed drinking and smoking pot while on a break got their jobs back. So now I know what kind of workers Chrystler has assembling their cars. Doesn't lead me to have much confidence in them."

You don't think you're being a bit melodramatic? Once upon a time, a drink with lunch was quite normal. Pot? There is little evidence that people are not capable of functioning quite well while a little high.

Personally, I never drink alcohol...never have, and it's been years since I last smoked pot, and even when I did, I never smoked pot while working.

I have no idea why the arbitrator ruled in favor of those workers. If they are not doing their jobs correctly, I'm sure they will be expelled eventually for legitimate reasons, that is if they return to their stupid ways. Goodness knows they are going to be watched like a hawk for quite some time.

December 12, 2012 at 7:34 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Why the rush? Secretary of State Hillary Clinton to testify on Benghazi attacks Dec. 20. Funny

December 12, 2012 at 7:55 p.m.
joneses said...

ABC, CBS and NBC do not report Union violence and obastard is to chicken sh!t to denounce this violence.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/12/12/abc-nbc-and-cbs-ignore-union-thugs-attack-on-fox-news-contributor/

December 12, 2012 at 9:15 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

joneses: In fact, the Organizer emboldens the thugs.

December 12, 2012 at 9:23 p.m.
Maximus said...

Now wait a minute, midget sportscaster Bob Costas is trying to make everything fair in the NFL so no player will ever get injured and no player will ever make bad decisions. In other words...turn America into a soccer loving, Euro-trash, froggy socialist country that can't even defend itself. Hmmmm. Bet Costas voted for Welfare Salesman Obamer...........THE REASON THE NFL AND COLLEGE FOOTBALL IS AMERICAS NUMBER ONE SPORT IS THAT IT IS PURE DARWINIAN SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST WITHOUT THE PC POLICE BEING INVOLVED. I'm waiting for it.....Costas and others will push GOVERNMENT REGULATION OF THE NFL. This might be one of the few modern union era issues OF ANY USE where the NFL players union might step in and save their sport and their livlihood. If not, the soccer moms will turn most of America's young men into Democrat sissies.

December 12, 2012 at 9:25 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Max: Excellent points.

December 12, 2012 at 9:35 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

MtJohn Said: “I'm not talking about forcing U.S. social standards and values on foreign countries.”

Speaking of social values and foreign countries, I think the attitude of the 38 Republican Senators who blocked the U.S. from signing a U. N. treaty that declares equal rights for people with disabilities is appalling. What’s wrong these people, MtJohn?

“The Senate rejected a United Nations treaty aimed at banning discrimination against individuals with disabilities Tuesday, falling five votes short of the two-thirds needed in a 61-38 vote.

The U.N. Convention on the Rights of Persons With Disabilities calls on participating countries to work to attain equality in access to education, healthcare and more, and was based largely on the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990. It was negotiated by President George W. Bush’s administration in 2006 and has since been signed by President Obama. So far, 126 countries have ratified the treaty.

The treaty, which passed through the Senate Foreign Relations Committee before an attempt to ratify it through a voice vote fell flat in August, had a broad base of support, with Sens. John Kerry (D-Mass.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) standing next to each other Monday to implore senators to join their cause.

Former Sen. Bob Dole (R-Kan.), backed by his wife, fellow former Sen. Elizabeth Dole (R-N.C.), attended Tuesday’s vote to urge the treaty’s ratification. The former Senate majority leader looked on from his wheelchair as senators voted from their desks instead of approaching the room’s podium.

But many Republicans, who accounted for the 38 opposing votes, have been vocal in their opposition to the treaty, which they say infringes on U.S. sovereignty.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-senate-republicans-un-disabilities-treaty-20121204,0,1250722.story

December 12, 2012 at 9:49 p.m.
joneses said...

I thought I would look into what is actually involved with this so-called “fiscal cliff”.

Below are the key items:

· Expiration of the Bush tax cuts extended by President Obama;

· Across-the-board spending cuts ("sequestration") to most discretionary programs;

· Reversion of the Alternative Minimum Tax thresholds to the 2000 tax year levels;

· Expiration of the Medicare Sustainable Growth Rate;

· Expiration of the 2% Social Security payroll tax cut;

· Expiration of the extended federal unemployment benefits;

· Expiration of federal renewable energy production tax credit for wind power; and

· New taxes imposed by the ObamaCare.

So, what is the problem?

This is all stuff the Obamabots, et. al. want and voted for, is it not?

I say let it happen.

December 12, 2012 at 9:56 p.m.
tderng said...

dude_abides...bloviating then.

December 12, 2012 at 9:59 p.m.
alprova said...

joneses wrote: "ABC, CBS and NBC do not report Union violence and obastard is to chicken sh!t to denounce this violence."

There's a good reason for it. There was little, if any, violence in reality. Fox News edited video taken to make it look as if there was violence. Steven Crowder faked...yes faked two shots that made their way into Sean Hannity's program.

Someone posted the following link last night. I'm reposting it now. Look and learn what it takes to work for Fox News these days, and why that network can never be trusted to bring forth the facts.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/12/1169171/-Fox-News-uses-Breitbart-style-video-editing-from-Michigan-RTW-rally-to-show-union-thug-brutality#

December 12, 2012 at 10:09 p.m.
alprova said...

NBC is reporting that all heck has broken out in Syria.

December 12, 2012 at 10:18 p.m.
MTJohn said...

mountainlaurel said.."Speaking of social values and foreign countries, I think the attitude of the 38 Republican Senators who blocked the U.S. from signing a U. N. treaty that declares equal rights for people with disabilities is appalling. What’s wrong these people, MtJohn?"

And to think they did it in spite of Bob Dole's support for the treaty. Who can understand the mind of the chickenhawks?

December 12, 2012 at 11:15 p.m.

chatt_man, well, I take it as you making some over-the-top statement as rhetoric, and not realizing that your distortion is making things worse, not better.

There are times where it is appropriate to point out the flaws in another person's reasoning in order to highlight their mistakes, but there are other times where the doing so is the real mistake.

Good luck telling which is which. Many people will deny it either way.

But no, it doesn't happen equally on both sides, that's a false equivalency.

December 12, 2012 at 11:31 p.m.
nowfedup said...

How selective are the antiunion mobs. Noted the union haters never mention or perhaps they do, their beloved Pro Sports and Celebs, ALL very strong union members. Even the R/tea potty loved Ronnie Reg, was pres of screen actors guild. So darling, seems fine to take on and insult neighbors and fellow workers, but celebs, pro sports, fire/cops and the worst union of all The Bar Assoc, all get free pass, most among the 1-2% income levels. Gee me thinks there is more then a bit of dumbed down hypocrisy there. But since most do not have economic clue as to real wages falling for last 40 years as unions attacked, not to surprising in region where chicken processors get $10/hour, mfg workers $8-14.

December 13, 2012 at 10:30 a.m.
HiDef said...

samuelbaker- Here's another link regarding the mismanagement at Hostess. Not that you'll read it or look at unions with an open mind since you've obviously made up your mind about them already. Oh and by the way, as an air traffic controller (not in Chattanooga), I'd say my job is very "real", very competitive and certainly pays well, among other things...

http://www.alternet.org/corporate-accountability-and-workplace/twinkie-ceo-admits-company-took-employees-pensions-and-put-it

December 13, 2012 at 8:34 p.m.
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