published Sunday, December 16th, 2012

The Gift

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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miraweb said...

For sure. Though I'm not sure my expectations could go any lower with this Congress.

December 16, 2012 at 12:02 a.m.
Salsa said...

We've had low expectations for the last 4 years and they have been met.

December 16, 2012 at 12:04 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Term Limits

December 16, 2012 at 12:44 a.m.
miraweb said...

Jack - I meant to tell you I enjoyed your menorah icon.

December 16, 2012 at 1:12 a.m.
TNProgressive said...

No. I refuse. I know the real America. I know real American citizens. I will not betray them, or my country by lowering my expectations one whit! I am an American citizen. I know the America I see is entirely up to me. Democracy is a blessed gift that has been given to me to protect. That I will do. The greatness of America is entrusted to her citizens...all of them. No.

December 16, 2012 at 1:57 a.m.
TNProgressive said...

No. I refuse. I know the real America. I know real American citizens. I will not betray them, or my country by lowering my expectations one whit! I am an American citizen. I know the America I see is entirely up to me. Democracy is a blessed gift that has been given to me to protect. That I will do. The greatness of America is entrusted to her citizens...all of them. No.

December 16, 2012 at 1:57 a.m.
fairmon said...

Lame brained lame ducks have done what ducks do, the litter is spread all around. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken droppings. Can we expect 535 people plus members of the administration heavily influenced by special interest all to be logical, objective, effective, responsible leaders? Would we have a 16 trillion dollar and growing debt if they were? There is no cliff, that is a media and Washington phrase trying to influence and scare people into supporting their behavior. Let the temp rates expire then take whatever action is needed to adjust the rates in effect. Why were they labeled temporary? Any law that is temporary is not good for the economy or country long term.

December 16, 2012 at 5:01 a.m.
fairmon said...

Grover Norquist is not an elected official but has control of too many republican members of congress with commitments to his agenda instead of their constituents, unless those voting for the member happen to agree with his Agenda, if they know and pay attention to such matters. Surely most constituents would object to their member of congress signing pledges to anyone other than them.

December 16, 2012 at 5:09 a.m.
Livn4life said...

Should also include the words: "but increase your contributions to our cause(Congress').

December 16, 2012 at 7:17 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

And we expected our lame duck President to cut the deficit in half, negotiate on C-Span, close Gitmo, make Solyndra eternal, keep joblessness below 8% at all times, keep his vow to faithfully execute the laws instead of choosing which to enforce...can anything open Clay's heart to demand the same standards of his own side as of those he opposes? Or does he admit yet again that the Tea Party, which does so, is better than he in that regard? Liberal hypocrites, your repentance would make a nice Christmas gift for us and for and from Him whose birth we celebrate.

December 16, 2012 at 7:48 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Jack_Dennis said..."Term Limits"

Agreed! Term limits for lobbyists - preferably zero.

December 16, 2012 at 7:55 a.m.
conservative said...

Speaking of gifts:

And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down , and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh

December 16, 2012 at 8:03 a.m.
dude_abides said...

AndrewLohr said... "Liberal hypocrites, your repentance would make a nice Christmas gift for us and for and from Him whose birth we celebrate."

Thanks for the warm, cozy offer, Andrew, but the only hypocrites around here are you conservatives. So, please accept this "Stocking Full of Truth," which you can stuff.

December 16, 2012 at 8:57 a.m.
davisss13 said...

" Or does he admit yet again that the Tea Party, which does so, is better than he in that regard?"

I knew Ron Paul tea party protesters. You and your ilk are about as far from their original platform as can be. The people who have hijacked the movement are posers, frauds and culture warrior liars.

When was the last time one of them demanded the Patriot act be repealed? The drug war ended? Pull our troops from foreign soil? YOU DON'T HEAR THAT AT ALL, yet those were main parts of the libertarian tea party platform. Now what do you hear?

Hate Obama and praise th' lord.

December 16, 2012 at 9:15 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira: Happy you did.

December 16, 2012 at 9:29 a.m.
GameOn said...

We need an amendment to the constitution. If elected officials do not vote for a balanced budget each year of their term, they would not be eligible to serve any Federal, State, or Local Government or government agency in any capacity after their term is over.

December 16, 2012 at 9:30 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

davisss13 said...

" Or does he admit yet again that the Tea Party, which does so, is better than he in that regard?"

I knew Ron Paul tea party protesters. You and your ilk are about as far from their original platform as can be. The people who have hijacked the movement are posers, frauds and culture warrior liars.

When was the last time one of them demanded the Patriot act be repealed? The drug war ended? Pull our troops from foreign soil? YOU DON'T HEAR THAT AT ALL, yet those were main parts of the libertarian tea party platform. Now what do you hear?

Hate Obama and praise th' lord."

You are absolutely correct. The religious whackos took over the Tea Party and turned it into a right-wing Old Testament theocratic regime reminiscent of the Spanish Inquisition, Temperance League, and Know-Nothings. These imperialistic "Killing for Jesus, the Flag, and Creationism" types are the antithesis of liberty and progress.

I don't believe the Tea Party can survive these lunatics.

December 16, 2012 at 10:26 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

darwin123 AKA Nasty Boy......you're clearly the lunatic on here.

December 16, 2012 at 10:34 a.m.
fairmon said...

The right thing that won't happen is for those paying taxes to vote on increasing or not increasing the debt limit. It is hard to imagine how much BS would come out of D.C. trying to win votes one way or the other.

Term limits are another right thing to do that won't happen since it is congress policing itself and putting meaningless sanctions on those found out to be astray, what a joke. They won't do it to themselves so term limits in congress are not likely.

December 16, 2012 at 10:35 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Term limits are about as likely to happen as repeal of the 17th ammendment (which is really what is needed)

December 16, 2012 at 11:01 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Ask Zack Wamp about his term-limits pledge. He's a poster boy for congressional deceit.

December 16, 2012 at 11:04 a.m.
rolando said...

After watching John Kennedy's murder on TV, shortly followed by his brother's murder, I went into a mild form of shock; I have had little faith in our government ever since, regardless of party. Which does NOT say I have no faith in our country.

For instance, is anyone truly surprised that Boener would fold on opposing a tax increase? Or Bush I? Discarding their principles under the slightest political pressure has become expected of them...no wonder few vote for them for anything above state level.

Say, Bennett's poor taste in quickly taking advantage of another school shooting [little ones, this time] didn't last long. He sure changed his toon. Pun intended.

December 16, 2012 at 11:06 a.m.
Maximus said...

Just got back from a wonderful church service. I wish all of you could have been there! Regarding Clay's package, it is not Congress, it is the Senate led by Las Vegas Gangster Harry Reid that has blocked any progress. Reid has been in office since the 60's and still thinks he is a member of the Rat Pack seeing to it that every piece of legislation that the Republican led Congress has sent him, even a budget has been voted down. As I have told many of my Democrat colleagues, you don't get it, we do not want ANY of the Obama Welfare Pimp agenda passed. Congress has been doing their job very well over the passed two years...Block Berry From Implementing His Fair Shot Stupid Socialist Agenda. Even when Barry had the majority in the House for his first two years in office the only thing that got passed was against the will of the people...Obamacares. Finally, regarding the budget never passed by Barry, the fiscal cliff, and taxing the rich, Barry Cetera Blue Hawaii Obama said in an interview with ABC News pawn Brian Williams that tax increases on the rich are not about fixing the economy, it's about fairness. If you don't think Obama has a chip on his shoulder against the founding fathers and that he hates American Exceptionalism you are as crazy as burning in hell Adam Lanza.

December 16, 2012 at 11:07 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Dems, I know you wish it was so, but conservatives aren't the accomplice every time a gun is fired. We have nothing to feel guilty about.

December 16, 2012 at 11:09 a.m.

Ah, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

I would have taken fruit cake. Oh wait, that's been delivered too.

December 16, 2012 at 11:31 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

It should come as no surprise that Bennett thinks the federal government is Santa Claus.

Simple minded, selfish takers like Bennett are destroying this country.

December 16, 2012 at 11:36 a.m.
Maximus said...

One final comment on that pitiful piece of human debris Adam Lanza and this goes to the psycho babble liberal counselors and mental health professionals that forced the mainstreaming of this very socially disturbed monster into the general school population. If you have read anything about this kids behavior in school it was clear that his teachers and his classmates were doing everything they could to manage, teach, and cope with a very disturbed person. A man that had to supervise Lanza during a lab course stated, "the kid could hold his hand over a bunsin burner in the lab and would not feel a thing. It was my job to watch him." The school was forced by the counselors and I'm sure the Mother to accept this kid and do the best they can. Aspbergers, Autism, again there are very well adjusted kids with these diseases that I am sure do alright in the general population but forcing teachers to accept kids with severe mental issues is wrong. If you do not think this situation is occuring right now probably in your kids school, just ask a teacher. I know the comebacks will be....Adam was an honor student-so what if the kid was walking around the halls like a Zombie with his briefcase clutched to his chest...The system does not have enough funding-Adams father was a VP with GE Capital and Connecticut is one of the wealthiest and most taxed states in the union....No it will come out that Adam's Mom insisted that her highly functioning AutisticAspbergblablabla son be accepted into the general school population and that if necessary the teachers show him the "special attention" he deserves or else I will sue. Her position on the issue apparently lasted until the 10th. grade where finally she or the school sent him home. Of course due to the liberal media we might never know the real story on Adam's schooling but again, his behavior at school paints a pretty real picture of what the teachers had to cope and deal with.

December 16, 2012 at 11:40 a.m.
Maximus said...

Nerds had a good run. Adam Lanza ended it!

December 16, 2012 at 11:58 a.m.
jesse said...

Maximus

Check out "congenital insensitivity to pain w/anhidrosis"!(cipa!)

It ain't a mental prob.but a nerve disorder!

Had nothin to do w/ him being insane!

December 16, 2012 at 12:08 p.m.
dude_abides said...

maxibuilt vandermus said... "...his behavior at school paints a pretty real picture of what the teachers had to cope and deal with."

Are you being sensitive to the plight of teachers? Fantastic. Go tell Scott Walker.

December 16, 2012 at 12:11 p.m.
Maximus said...

Jesse, i guess Lee Harvey Oswald was just a normal dude that happended to be a Marine sharp shooter. Come on this Lanza kid had no business being mainstreamed into the general public school population. Either you are just defending the kid for the sake of debate or you and serial killer Ted Bundy, remember he was sooo smart, used to go on double dates together. Ted Bundy..."congenital insensitivity to sorority girls slit their throats and bite themdrosis cipa! Jesse, you are missing my point the disease state that you pointed out was probably used to keep this nut among the regular student population. "Adam has a documented sickness, he is normal and if you don't keep him in the school I will sue." After all he is an honor student." This and countless other government nightmares in the public school system is why both our kids went to private schools, Baylor and GPS respectively. Private schools have challenges too but nothing like the terrible public/government system we have now.

December 16, 2012 at 12:44 p.m.
fairmon said...

Give, give, give or we will take, take, take and spend, spend, spend sings the chorus of congress as many of their constituents say pass the taxes please.

December 16, 2012 at 12:57 p.m.
fairmon said...

Would you not for sure vote to ban all guns if you were a member of a group with a 14% approval rating that is considered too high? I have to wonder about their credibility when a member of congress in a speech says someone is a good friend of theirs.

December 16, 2012 at 1:02 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Maximus said..."Come on this Lanza kid had no business being mainstreamed into the general public school population."

Maximus - this conversation belongs in the other thread.

Our society has no business locking up people who have committed no crime. Lanza had no criminal record. Our society has no business treating patients for illness, including mental illness, without an adequate diagnosis. Lanza had not been diagnosed with a mental illness.

The reality is that law enforcement is the primary provider of mental health care in this country. You may hold Lanza's corpse accountable for the deeds he committed. However, the rest of us are at fault for having a mental health care system that allows people like Lanza to fall through the cracks and, worse, being aware of the flaws and intentionally doing nothing to fix it.

December 16, 2012 at 1:04 p.m.
Maximus said...

Dude, Scott Walker is a brave, stone cold stud union buster. His only problem is that he lives in a Union Loving Blue State. Ok, we bail those thugs at GM out and now they are at the MI state capital trying to block a right to work law that thankfully has passed. Why is it that all those union men and women look alike? Clinically obese, smoker, hoodie, obama t shirt, 1980's stone washed jeans, bright white tennis shoes, hoodie, and a sign. Gross. I pray to God they will stay up there. GM union employees a bunch of entitled whiners. Personally, GM was once a great company and I own a couple of classic 50's era GM cars but I will never buy a new GM product again. Let them go out of business, pad lock the place and move on to better opportunities in the beautiful Red Union Free Low Tax South. Pass the fried chicken please and GO COWBOYS! I know...Romo needs to go.

December 16, 2012 at 1:09 p.m.
Maximus said...

MTjohn thank you for supporting my position. The parents of Lanza and the mental healthcare system were responsible and are accountable. Well, that was the problem too, no accountability. This issue (the crazed among us) and not gun control is what needs to be examined.

December 16, 2012 at 1:15 p.m.
alprova said...

There's a great deal of misinformation going around about Adam Lanza, per the Connecticut State Policeman spokesman. There's a bit of misinformation going around in this forum as well.

Much has changed over the past 24 hours. We now know that Nancy Lanza had no association with Sandy Hook Elementary School whatsoever, which begs for answers as to why Adam Lanza decided to go to that School to carry out his attack.

Was he a student there? Was he bullied as someone who was different while he attended school? He targeted school officials. Was there some long-time grudge lingering in his mind?

Clearly, something sparked him on a mission to destroy as many lives as he could before taking his own life. Whatever happened, there is little disputing the fact that anyone who would do what Adam Lanza did this past Friday, can only be described as an act of insanity that has been committed by several people who came from varying backgrounds and circumstances. There are very little that any two have in common with each other.

Maximus, with all due respect, Asperger's Syndrome and Autism are not diseases. They are developmental disorders.

To tie what he did to either disorder that the young man suffered from is ridiculous. There are millions of people in this nation who are Autistic or who suffer from Asperger's Syndrome, who have never demonstrated so much as an ounce of violence.

Jesse hit something on the head with a ten pound sledgehammer. The fact that Adam Lanza did not feel pain when holding a hand over a flame, may well indicate that he had CIPA.

I suffer from that very condition myself. I can reach into an oven with my bare hands, grab whatever is in there, and feel not a thing. I've burned myself so many times over the years that the tips of my fingers have deformities.

I've suffered many injuries over the years, not knowing how or when they happened. Most of the time, I am not aware that I've been injured until someone would point out that I was bleeding. I do not feel hot or cold. I don't know what a headache or a sore throat feels like. I routinely have body shivers in 90 degree weather at times that people mistake for Parkinson's disease.

I've never had any thoughts of suicide or taking the life of another human being.

Perhaps we should let the dust settle before we jump to conclusions about what led to what happened. There are many details yet to come.

December 16, 2012 at 1:19 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Maximus - I didn't support your position! You wanted to lock the guy up without either a conviction or an adequate diagnosis. Lanza's parents are not responsible for the state of our mental health care system - we all are! And, we will never be able to fix it as long as we continue to stimatize those who are afflicted with mental illness. And, we will never be able to fix it as long as we refuse to invest more in social services.

December 16, 2012 at 1:20 p.m.
Maximus said...

MtJohn..."Lanza was not diagnosed with a mental illness.." you did miss my point that normal has been redefined by the liberals in the mental health professions. "Oh he is detached, paranoid, at times wants to hurt himself, and can't feel pain but other than that he is a very highly functioning autistic kid that is normal in every way. After all he is an honor student....We will place him on meds and send him back to school even though he has not carried on a real coherent conversation with any human being in years." Enjoy! As the teachers cringe...yikes we have to take care of another disruptive nut for 8 hours a day....crap! Someday he is gonna go all wack a doodle on us us.........whats that popping noise?................

December 16, 2012 at 1:25 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Maximus said... "Dude, Scott Walker is a brave, stone cold stud..."

You're entitled to your own proclivities, uh... But you're simultaneously Romophobic.

December 16, 2012 at 1:26 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Scott Walker deserves the Presidential Medal of Freedom.

December 16, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Maximus said..."you did miss my point that normal has been redefined by the liberals in the mental health professions."

I did not miss that point. I ignored it because 1) you are incorrect and 2) your MBA doesn't qualify you to diagnose mental illness.

Nobody diagnosed Lanza as "normal". He was in the mainstream (assuming that homeschooling is mainstream) because we lack appropriate alternatives for children who do not function well in the mainstream. And, apparently, you are willing to throw away those kids who would benefit from alternatives and do so without any structure in place to distinguish who those kids are.

December 16, 2012 at 1:46 p.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo said "I've never had any thoughts of suicide or taking the life of another human being."

Unless that human being is in the possession of a high capacity magazine, right alpo? Uhhh...that would be me!

December 16, 2012 at 2 p.m.
Maximus said...

MTJohm..not to reveal too much of my training but my MBA has an emphasis in healthcare management and I own three healthcare affiliated businesses across four states. Hello...most MBA's have specialty areas. As for no resources for special needs kids, WOW, we have spent billions in the public school sector for all types of programs. Little Adam was not home schooled until the 10th grade when i'm sure the school administrators just got fed up with his behavior. You libs just can't stand the fact that someone got their feelings hurt. I know Mtjohn everyone is a victim and victim of circumstances beyond their control so we must have sympathy for them even though they have been a wack job since day one and needed to be put away a long time ago. Again, like Obama, the greatest thing most liberals fear is accountability. After all there is no right or worng just some gray area in between and who by the way is going to be the judge...come on Adam was a normal kid and did this out of the complete blue....really...I guess its the old liberal saying from Miss Piggy Hillary...it takes a village....we are all accountable for Adam and it is going to take some more government spending and regulation to solve...er well not solve....address this issue. We can't have one person or the parents being held accountable that would be too much for them to handle. I know...let's form a committee!

December 16, 2012 at 2 p.m.
Maximus said...

Alprova...I was waiting for it. Little Adam was bullied. OMG

December 16, 2012 at 2:08 p.m.
Easy123 said...

"not to reveal too much of my training but my MBA has an emphasis in healthcare management and I own three healthcare affiliated businesses across four states."

LMFAO!!!!

December 16, 2012 at 2:09 p.m.
limric said...

Clays cartoon yesterday showed bleak colorless sadness. It was well done and really quite poignant.

His cartoon today shows EXACTLY what the congress & their elite handers have been telling the American middle class & the poor for some time and shouldn’t come as surprise to anyone. IF you’ve been listening.

Clay is hitting the mark as usual.

December 16, 2012 at 2:11 p.m.
Maximus said...

Alprova...Developmental Disorder....again, liberal psycho bable jargon. The Development Disorder shot his Mom in the face....isn't that special. Again, with all the categories of crazy...developmental disorder...high functioning high achieving autistic....ashamburgers..the short bus riders....all of these descriptions have come about in recent decades to put the severely mentally ill on the streets. Alprova...Developmental Disorder this! Again, most liberal radical leftist live in a fantasy world.

December 16, 2012 at 2:19 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Maximus said... "not to reveal too much of my training but my MBA has an emphasis in healthcare management and I own three healthcare affiliated businesses across four states."

So what? How many patients to you, personally, diagnose and treat?

And, if you have an MBA in health care management and own three health care businesses in four states, I do not understand your willingness to throw away kids who have undiagnosed mental illnesses.

Maximus said..."Just got back from a wonderful church service."

And just what was so wonderful about that service that you would leave worship with such an apparent lack of sympathy for others less fortunate than yourself?

December 16, 2012 at 2:22 p.m.
Maximus said...

Easy...I know...life has been hard on you and all but jealousy and envy are sins. Gotta run...got a tee time. Cheers! I think i'll drive the 57 Chevy this time. So cool. Had it restomodded, sweeet sound system! All done in Republican Red!!!! EAsy..it's only money..............at least if you are not a lazy food stamp bum like you.

December 16, 2012 at 2:25 p.m.
Maximus said...

MtJohn..just because we are Christian does not mean we are push over wimps. I have ZERO sympathy for Adam Lanza or his parents. Again, accountability is not your friend. The parents and no government agency, committee, teacher, whatever are accountable no one else except of course for the freak himself and he is being held accountable, finally, now in hell.

December 16, 2012 at 2:30 p.m.
tderng said...

Maximus said...the greatest thing most liberals fear is accountability.

Maximus,they don't fear it,they just have no idea what it is.

December 16, 2012 at 2:37 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Hey Easy! Max is eating your pitiful lunch today, junior. Bwahahahaha

December 16, 2012 at 2:53 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Maximus,

"life has been hard on you and all but jealousy and envy are sins."

Life has been splendid. And I'm really not jealous of severe stupidity and hubris, contrary to what you may think. LMFAO!!

"Gotta run...got a tee time."

You must be one of those guys that golfs in the rain.

"I think i'll drive the 57 Chevy this time. So cool. Had it restomodded, sweeet sound system! All done in Republican Red!!!!"

LMFAO! You drive this vehicle in the rain? LMFAO!!

"EAsy..it's only money..............at least if you are not a lazy food stamp bum like you."

Money that you don't have. And I've never been on food stamps. LMFAO! You Wing Nut idiots are all the same. You'd rather argue with your strawmen. It's because you aren't intelligent enough to have a conversation with a real person. Please keep this up though. Highly comical.

December 16, 2012 at 2:59 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Troll_Dennis,

"Hey Easy! Max is eating your pitiful lunch today, junior. Bwahahahaha"

How so? By telling lies? Or by saying I'm on food stamps? I bet you got your first erection in years when you read that line. LMFAO! You Wing Nuts really are the stupidest people on the face of the earth.

I've been eating your "prunes and Ensure" lunch for months now, coffin dodger.

December 16, 2012 at 3:02 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Maximus said..."...just because we are Christian does not mean we are push over wimps."

As Christians, we are called to see the Savior's face in the face of our neighbor in need.

If you really are part of the 1% and you got there through your ownership of three health care companies in four states, you are not part of the solution - you are part of the problem, i.e. a system that serves the selfish interests of providers as more important than the health needs of the patients.

Amos might have a word for you,specifically, and our society, in general. But, I doubt that you want to hear it. If our society is dysfunctional - and it is - we all are accountable. We might not be accountable for Lanza's disability, whatever it might have been. But, we are accountable for perpetuating a society that turns a blind eye to our failure to appropriately care for them. And, we are accountable for not caring for the victims until after they have become victims.

ps. What is your affiliation with Health Management Associates?

December 16, 2012 at 3:06 p.m.
conservative said...

Speaking of gifts: Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the giftof God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink ; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

December 16, 2012 at 3:12 p.m.
alprova said...

patriot1 wrote: "Unless that human being is in the possession of a high capacity magazine, right alpo? Uhhh...that would be me!"

Look...if you want to have one in your home and pop a boner every time you look at it or show it off to others who are under-endowed...fine.

If, on the other hand, you happen to be pulled over by a cop one day and are caught with it in your vehicle, then it should be seized, you should be tried, and then put to death, for there is no good reason on the face of this Earth for you to have such a weapon in your possession in a motor vehicle or on your person.

But don't worry...I won't personally push the button that injects the drugs into your veins.

December 16, 2012 at 3:16 p.m.
alprova said...

maximus wrote: "Alprova...I was waiting for it. Little Adam was bullied. OMG"

I did not say that he was bullied. I asked the question, was he?

Something has to explain why he targeted that school. I'm sure in the coming days, we'll know what it was.

Unlike yourself, and buying into all the misinformation out there, and because the "facts" have changed dramatically many times since Friday, I'm waiting until the dust settles to try and understand what led up to the man doing what he did.

Is there any excuse for what he did? Absolutely not. But you're jumping to erroneous conclusions based on spotty reports that have changed several times and will likely change even more in the coming days.

I can't imagine what it takes for someone to kill his mother, load up a car with guns, drive a couple of miles to an Elementary School, and unload three weapons, and end it by taking one's own life.

But please...don't let me hinder your progress in making a complete fool of yourself.

December 16, 2012 at 3:25 p.m.
miraweb said...

If Congress finds itself unable to "man up" to an assault weapons ban next month, the next step would be a nationwide boycott of chain stores that sell those weapons.

We don't always have control of Congress but we still have the power of the wallet. Dick's Sporting Goods - I'm looking at you.

December 16, 2012 at 3:28 p.m.
jesse said...

From all the b/s maximus is layin on i guess his tee time is at Augusta National and he's in a 4som w/Bill gates and Warren Buffet!

Prob. playin a $100,000.00 Nassau!Automatic press!$10,000'oo greenies plus side bets!!

High Roller in a 57 Chevy! LMFAO!

December 16, 2012 at 3:30 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said...

Speaking of gifts:

Speaking of gifts that matter, get someone books by Robert Ingersoll, Carl Sagan, and Christopher Hitchens. Reason, science, and freethought never go out of style, but imaginary gods, super-babies, and fairy tales do!

December 16, 2012 at 3:34 p.m.
alprova said...

"Alprova...Developmental Disorder....again, liberal psycho bable jargon. The Development Disorder shot his Mom in the face....isn't that special."

Happens all the time, committed by perfectly same people, who for some reason snap.

I've related the deaths of two of my Grandparents. On April 25, 2005, an hour after my Father and I had shared breakfast with him, my Grandfather strangled my Grandmother to death, emptied his floor safe of all his cash, titles, deeds etc., placed those items in a lock box, took them to my Uncle's garage where one of his pickups was in the shop having the brakes replaced, loaded up two rifles in his pickup truck, drove to the backside of my property, fed his cattle, went into the barn, and blew his brains out.

Why did he do it? Nobody in my family has the first clue. We will never know what happened in that hour between the time we parted ways and when his body was found.

People lose it. There's no way to predict it or to prevent it.

"Again, with all the categories of crazy...developmental disorder...high functioning high achieving autistic....ashamburgers..the short bus riders....all of these descriptions have come about in recent decades to put the severely mentally ill on the streets."

What you know about what you think you know, can fit into a thimble.

"Alprova...Developmental Disorder this! Again, most liberal radical leftist live in a fantasy world."

That's a-okay with me. What you think is of no consequence. I can't speak for anyone else, but between this and your bragging about this and that, I think you're toting a wheel barrel full of cow pies.

But you feel free to carry on...

December 16, 2012 at 3:41 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Maximus, you are a pathetic little twit. If you are as rich and have as many expensive toys as you say you have, then you're nothing but an arrogant SOB to brag about it; and if you are making it all up (and we know you are), then it just shows what a pitiful delusional fool you are. Either way nobody gives a rat's ass about your "wealth," make-believe or otherwise. Grow up. The name Maximus certainly suits your ego but Minimus more accurately suits your intellect and reasoning capabilities.

December 16, 2012 at 3:41 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Easy: Fantasize about your own mini erections, junior. Leave mine out of it.

December 16, 2012 at 4 p.m.
raygunz said...

Maxi, are you related to Tu?? Y'all seem to share the same braggadocio,,plus a couple of other traits.

December 16, 2012 at 4:10 p.m.
GameOn said...

Dude...... Unions offer nothing for good teachers. Good teachers are punished every year because of unions. Good teachers are held responsible for students coming out of classrooms taught by weak tenured teachers. Almost every teacher will have a class with 20 to 25% of the students performing below grade level at the beginning of the year because of a weak teacher. The school system is stuck with the bad teachers and the good teachers must work twice as hard to get these students up to grade level performance. If a child is in the fourth grade and has been stuck with 2 or 3 bad teachers. They will never catch up. Plus, the bad teachers are paid the same as good teachers. Unions only care about the degree and time on the job for a pay scale. Performance has nothing to do with it.

December 16, 2012 at 4:19 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

What GameOn said.

December 16, 2012 at 4:23 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Jack shows his stupidity by jumping on Maximus' sinking ship. LOL I can see owning 4 facilities across 3 states, but 3 across 4 states?? That'a a laughable statement. You could own 3 facilities across 30 states!! LMAO Then, of course, the golfing in the rain statement. Classic. That proves he was lying about going to church! He would know the weather if he had!

And sad Jack_ claims this is eating someone's lunch? Talk about dirtgruntdumb. Funny stuff... thank you, thank you very much!

December 16, 2012 at 4:23 p.m.
dude_abides said...

GameOn said... "Dude...... Unions offer nothing for good teachers."

Strange, since the union would be made up of teachers.

December 16, 2012 at 4:27 p.m.
potcat said...

Alprova, do you not have an inkling of what made your Grandfather snap? Choking someone takes time and is up close and personal.

This shocking event must have been terrible, my deepest sympathy to you and yours.

I also have endured the tragic death of my best friend and Sister, Laura. Its been over 20yrs and after reading about yours i'm reminded of mine and silent tears fall.

December 16, 2012 at 4:45 p.m.
rolando said...

MTJohn -- Condensing a complicated subject [ mental illness] into a short paragraph is rather...ah...simplistic. Can't be done with any surety.

For research starters as to why today's mentally ill are walking the streets, shooting their moms and little kiddies, and other various conditions I suggest you study the history of the DSM and how it slowly changed into what it is today.

Shrinks of all kinds must base any diagnose on the DSM -- failure to do that will certainly open the door to lawsuits. "If it ain't in there, it don't exist as a problem."

For further info, chat with a school/hospital shrink as to what they are allowed to do professionally...makes for an interesting and enlightening conversation. [I did that very thing, professionally, innumerable times to clarify certain personnel issues.]

THEN you will have an idea how this crap came about.

December 16, 2012 at 5:08 p.m.
raygunz said...

Here's a sad,but informative ,first-hand story that shows what our society is up against,, "Thinking the Unthinkable"

  http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/
December 16, 2012 at 5:19 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Troll_Dennis,

"Easy: Fantasize about your own mini erections, junior. Leave mine out of it."

You know all about mini erections, don't you, Jackie? I bet it's been years but I'm sure you remember it like it was yesterday. And I was leaving yours out of it. I'm sure it's been left out of the equation for a long, long time.

I bet it really chaps your wrinkly ass to get insulted and bested by myself and others here on a daily basis. That's probably why you hang on everyone else's coattails. LMFAO! How unoriginal...

Troll on, coffin dodger. I'll be by later to eat the rest of your lunch. I hope it's mashed potatoes and Metamucil!

December 16, 2012 at 5:28 p.m.
Maximus said...

Easy and Dude. Did I say I was in Chatt at this time? It ain't raining where I am right now. Very nice weather for golf here. Shot a 38 for nine. Not that great but Im not that good either just love the game and have fun with my buds. And...i did not say facilities I said businesses. LOL! Alprova apples usually do not fall too far from the tree. Stay away from weapons and take your meds regularly. Rickaroo you are so accustomed to hanging around losers that it shocks you when someone else is thriving, enjoying life, helping others and owns a few toys. Have I told you about my Rolex and Brietling watch collection?

December 16, 2012 at 5:30 p.m.
MTJohn said...

GameOn said..."Unions offer nothing for good teachers. Good teachers are punished every year because of unions. Good teachers are held responsible for students coming out of classrooms taught by weak tenured teachers."

That might be true. However, if we really want to get rid of teachers unions, for the sake of improving the quality of public education, then we ought to treat teachers as professionals and pay them what they are worth.

December 16, 2012 at 5:30 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Speaking of unoriginality:

Jack_Dennis said...

What GameOn said.

December 16, 2012 at 4:23 p.m


I guess you're getting senile.

December 16, 2012 at 5:31 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Rolando - nice try, but your reference to psychiatrists as "shrinks" calls into question your credibility to speak on the subject.

December 16, 2012 at 5:37 p.m.
Easy123 said...

MaximusTheLiar,

"Did I say I was in Chatt at this time? It ain't raining where I am right now. Very nice weather for golf here."

So you were just posting on TFP while on vacation, right? A weekend trip, right? LMFAO!

"Shot a 38 for nine."

LMFAO! Let the dishonesty continue!

"Stay away from weapons and take your meds regularly."

How many times do you think you could repeat this lame insult? I bet you'll use it again...LMFAO!

"you are so accustomed to hanging around losers that it shocks you when someone else is thriving, enjoying life, helping others and owns a few toys."

You know all about losers. Like Jay-Z said: Yew iz 1. LMFAO!! By "thriving, enjoying life, helping others and owns a few toys.", you must mean being dishonest and a prick. Because that seems to be the only thing you are doing.

"Have I told you about my Rolex and Brietling watch collection?"

LMFAO! This gets better and better. You're nearing tu_quoque levels of crazy! Keep going! Tell us about your beach houses and private jets!

December 16, 2012 at 5:38 p.m.
jesse said...

Maximus?

Can you play for $$$$? if so i'm interested!!

I think i might be able to lightin your load some!!

What clubs and ball do you play?

December 16, 2012 at 5:43 p.m.
Maximus said...

I did a poll with my golf buddies. Certainly our hearts go out to the victims and we must pray for the families but bottom line...whose fault was this? It was 100% .....the parents. In this day and age of group think and it takes a village it was refreshing to hear instead of the usual...not enough gov money spent on mental health...we must pass tighter gun control laws....we need to do a study and then feel good about the results, well he was from a broken home blame it on that...no it was the parents. Of course we have to support the Dad, brother, etc. but they know what the real story was as to why this terrible thing happened. Adam certainly had something against his Mom and brother in that he tried to use his id in order to implicate him. The parents...that's where the lawyers will start when the lawsuits start. The Dad who is a VP with GE better lawyer up.

December 16, 2012 at 5:43 p.m.
Maximus said...

Easy there are these new contraptions called I-pads.........

December 16, 2012 at 5:45 p.m.
rolando said...

That's because "shrinks" includes psychologists too, MTJohn. Even the CSI "Forensic" types. To say nothing of all the "Practioners", Children's Protective Services Gestapo, various wannabes, etc. out there.

"Shrinks" is an all inclusive, catch-all word that includes ALL mental health professionals, semi-professionals, et al and not just psychiatrists. Actually, it is pretty descriptive -- from "head-shrinker" originally...

You DO know there is a difference between all those, right? If not, YOU certainly have no business commenting on them.

December 16, 2012 at 5:54 p.m.
miraweb said...

Max - With an iPad (or even a cell phone) you don't really need a watch to tell time.

Still can't tell if this troll is a real d-bag or just plays one on the internet.

At least it's entertaining.

December 16, 2012 at 5:55 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Maximus,

"Adam certainly had something against his Mom and brother in that he tried to use his id in order to implicate him."

That is called conjecture.

"The parents...that's where the lawyers will start when the lawsuits start. The Dad who is a VP with GE better lawyer up."

"Peter Lanza is tax director and vice president of taxes for GE Energy Financial Services in the New York City area.".

Highly imprecise and wrong, AGAIN! You suck at this truth telling thing.

Also, there will be no lawsuits agains the father. I don't know how you think the judicial system works but the man wasn't even his full time legal guardian.

"Easy there are these new contraptions called I-pads........."

So you went on a weekend vacation out of town and attended church there? LMFAO! RIGHHHHTTT!!! Then you played a round of golf after you drove your classic car. Did you drive that down to your vacation spot? LMFAO! But you implied you had a choice in which car to drive. Did you drive multiple cars to your vacation destination? Or are you going to tell us about your vacation home now? LMFAO! See if you can talk your way out of this elaborate lie.

December 16, 2012 at 5:57 p.m.
miraweb said...

More than that - Lanza was over 18. He was a legal adult.

Max, I'd hate to think your "golf buddies" have any real responsibility anywhere. It doesn't look like they have enough business chops to successfully order a bagel.

December 16, 2012 at 5:58 p.m.
rolando said...

PS: You really should check out the DSM history, MTJohn. Then you can speak with some authority.

December 16, 2012 at 6 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Rolando - on what page of the DSM is the term "shrink" defined?

December 16, 2012 at 6:03 p.m.
miraweb said...

Right before "Nutjob. N.O.S."

December 16, 2012 at 6:07 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Rolando,

"Shrink" is a slang term, moron. And no, it is not a "catch-all word". It's very general, vague and some mental health professionals find it insulting. Only rednecks and folks with limited vocabularies use the word.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/shrink

Every ounce of your credibility just went down the toilet.

p.s. You really should do some real research before you continue to talk out of your ass.

December 16, 2012 at 6:12 p.m.
fairmon said...

if we really want to get rid of teachers unions, for the sake of improving the quality of public education, then we ought to treat teachers as professionals and pay them what they are worth.

I agree if they are willing to work that cheap.

December 16, 2012 at 6:13 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Easy: You just keep waxing that bishop, tiny and don't worry about ol' JD. The only lunch you've eaten is no doubt a free lunch at the local JUCO. Grow up twerp.

December 16, 2012 at 6:16 p.m.
miraweb said...

Anonymous Goes After Westboro Baptist Church

WBC has said it is going to picket funerals from this shooting. There is also a new White House petition requesting WBC be officially designated a hate group.

A group attached to the online hacktivist group Anonymous claims to have hacked the Westboro Baptist Church Web site in response to plans by the controversial church to picket the funerals of those massacred Friday at a school in Newtown, Conn.

As part of a campaign dubbed #OpWestBoro, KY Anonymous said yesterday it posted the personal information belonging to members of the extremist organization, which is best known for conducting protests designed to disrupt the funerals of members of the military killed in action. The data dump included the names, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and physical addresses of dozens of alleged members of the religious organization. The group did not indicate where or how it acquired the data.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57559468-93/hackers-target-westboro-baptist-church-after-newtown-threat/

December 16, 2012 at 6:19 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira: WB, what a hideous group.

December 16, 2012 at 6:27 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Maximiss... it must suck to get caught in a lie. You really should, yet again, change your name. Haven't seen TOES around since the re-election of President Obama, maybe you could use, or go back to, that sobriquet! mymy seems to be available, as well.

December 16, 2012 at 6:33 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Westboro Baptist Church — Another Christian-love organization. Reminds me of Conservative, Jack Dennis, and Kenneth Orr spreading the Good News about God, Jesus, and the Holy Spook.

WBC is the result of belief in a literal, inerrant Bible just as JD, Conservative, and Ken Orr claim.

December 16, 2012 at 6:34 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Quit embarrassing yourself, Jack_, you've got as much chance wooing miraweb as the Skipper had of getting next to Mary Ann.

December 16, 2012 at 6:38 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Troll_Dennis,

"You just keep waxing that bishop, tiny"

Are you reminiscing or telling us one of your fantasies? It sounds like you have some penis envy there, Jackie.

"and don't worry about ol' JD."

I'm not worried about you. Neither is your wife.

"The only lunch you've eaten is no doubt a free lunch at the local JUCO."

I've been eating that Jack_Dennis special for months. Junior college jokes! LMFAO! You really are senile! I don't know if you're just "unoriginal" or stupid. I'd put my money on both.

"Grow up twerp."

I'll never grow up, BITCH. LMFAO!

Your ass must stay permanently chapped. You just can't keep up, Jackie.

December 16, 2012 at 6:38 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Jesse: Ask Easy what ball he plays. LMFOA

December 16, 2012 at 6:44 p.m.
MTJohn said...

daytonsdarwin said..."WBC is the result of belief in a literal, inerrant Bible..."

daytonsdarwin - I do not think that WBC is the result of believing that Scripture is God's Word. Instead, I think it is the consequence of the remaking of God in a human image rather than pondering the mystery that each of us is a unique creation, made in the Creator's image. As a result of that error, it becomes very difficult to accept the truth that God loves each of us, unconditionally - including a whole bunch of folks who look and behave very differently than I do.

December 16, 2012 at 6:46 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Troll_Dennis,

"LMFOA"

"Laughing my f*cking off ass"

I need to cash my chips in for that bet about you being senile and stupid. I just won the jackpot.

December 16, 2012 at 6:51 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Yeah, I should stay away from the juvenile acronyms

December 16, 2012 at 6:54 p.m.

Fairmon, you value childrens's education that little? It's about paying for the value of the job in order to get the quality you want.

Gameon, actually, it is unions fighting ineffective metrics which administrators and lobbyists are dogmatically implementing, no matter how ineffectual they are at assessing students or teachers. And who think that playing games with who they reward and punish will somehow get results besides a bunch of brown-nosing and infighting.

Especially when you consider what students (and their parents) really contribute to learning. Namely, the largest share of responsibility.

But no, let's put them through another test, which may have the results skewed in order to get somebody a bonus.

December 16, 2012 at 6:56 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Troll_Dennis,

It guess things are only "juvenile" when you fail miserably at them, right? LMFAO!

It's ok Simple Jack. You're just too stuh-stuh-stuh-stttoooopidd.

Take my advice:

December 16, 2012 at 7 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Mt.John,

Westboro Baptist Church follows Biblical teachings, both Old and New Testament, more so than any other fundamentalist group I know. They believe in the Bible as literal, historical, and inerrant. They follow it to the letter.

Fortunately most Christian groups, even fundamentalists, do not. However, they do pick and choose what teachings they do believe and condemn those who do not follow that dogma.

Either you believe the Bible is God's word, is factual, historically accurate, and inerrant, or you don't, or you subject the Bible to human interpretation, not as God's written word to be followed without question.

You can't have it both ways if you truly believe that every word is accurate and to be followed.

You can't claim that "here it's literal" but "there it's a metaphor." There's no middle ground. Either it's collection of stories, myths to explain tribal man's environment, or it's literally and without error as the Word of God.

Westboro Baptist Church takes the Bible literally and without error. Anyone claiming to do the same falls into the same category as WBC.

December 16, 2012 at 7:05 p.m.
MTJohn said...

daytonsdarwin - I believe that the Bible is God's Word. I also believe that God's wisdom is beyond my ability to comprehend. Therefore, I do not use words like inerrant or infallible because such words say less, not more, about my understanding of Scripture. I do not believe that WBC follows the core Biblical teaching, God is love. WBC has crafted its own teaching and backed it up with selected references to the Bible, while ignoring the more important message.

December 16, 2012 at 7:10 p.m.
alprova said...

potcat wrote: "Alprova, do you not have an inkling of what made your Grandfather snap? Choking someone takes time and is up close and personal."

It will remain a mystery to all of us forever. They had recently celebrated their 60th wedding anniversary.

"This shocking event must have been terrible, my deepest sympathy to you and yours."

It was tough.

"I also have endured the tragic death of my best friend and Sister, Laura. Its been over 20yrs and after reading about yours i'm reminded of mine and silent tears fall."

I'm truly sorry for doing that to you. My condolences to you for the loss of Laura, for sure.

December 16, 2012 at 7:17 p.m.
alprova said...

Easy wrote: "Every ounce of your credibility just went down the toilet."

Rolando's very good at flushing that toilet. He does it every time he posts.

December 16, 2012 at 7:26 p.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennis wrote: "LMFOA"

Huh?

December 16, 2012 at 7:29 p.m.
alprova said...

If the WBC decides to go ahead with their threat to appear in Newtown, Connecticut, forgive me Lord, but I hope and pray that someone opens fire on them and puts them all out of their misery.

I think it's long past time for police departments to stop protecting those clowns from attack.

They've been begging to be shot for years. Now there's a shooting I and most of America would cheer.

December 16, 2012 at 7:34 p.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo...Sometimes you seem to attempt the "sage" role on this site and then in another post say you would actually cheer the shooting of a group you don't agree with. Kinda irrational don't you think?...Something you inherited?

December 16, 2012 at 8:17 p.m.
alprova said...
December 16, 2012 at 8:18 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Patriot1,

I,too, would like to see something unfortunate to happen to those wacko douchebags from the WBC.

It's not irrational. It's poetic justice.

Did you inherit your ignorance?

December 16, 2012 at 8:22 p.m.
raygunz said...

in case anyone would like to give a shout-out to the folks at Westboro Baptist,,, http://www.anonpaste.me/anonpaste2/index.php?65e2832b96b888e3#Uxqr8wrq3ljskOY76+ubZQvSmcEtYCbIfZBqWpaGcMI=

December 16, 2012 at 8:38 p.m.
jesse said...

I don't think the folks in Newtown need to deal w/anymore killing right now,no matter how well the WBC needs it!

December 16, 2012 at 8:48 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

jesse said...

"I don't think the folks in Newtown need to deal w/anymore killing right now,no matter how well the WBC needs it!"

Now a good ass-whipping is another thing entirely.

If the WBC bus of loonies runs down an embankment, gob-smacks a tree, catches fire, and all are painfully bar-b-qued only one thing to say, "God's will so don't call the fire department."

I hope Fred is the first to burn and the last to die. He'd make a great yule-log. Happy Holidays!

December 16, 2012 at 9:26 p.m.
GameOn said...

The father of Newtown Connecticut school shooter Adam Lanza is Peter Lanza who is a VP and Tax Director at GE Financial. The father of Aurora Colorado movie theater shooter James Holmes is Robert Holmes, the lead scientist for the credit score company FICO. Both men were to testify before the US Sentate in the ongoing LIBOR scandal.

http://beforeitsnews.com/economics-and-politics/2012/12/2-mass-shootings-connected-to-libor-2447738.html

December 16, 2012 at 9:27 p.m.
alprova said...

patriot1 wrote: "Alpo...Sometimes you seem to attempt the "sage" role on this site and then in another post say you would actually cheer the shooting of a group you don't agree with."

I think it goes a little deeper than just a philosophical, political, or religious disagreement. I disagree with people all the time, but I hold no ill will against anyone I have ever parred with.

The active members of the WBC are scum. Every one of those people are as close to the anti-Christ as one can get.

If these people can be remotely considered Christian, then sign me up to worship Satan. I would not have so much as a fleeting thought of sympathy for any one of them, were they to be picked off.

It's going to happen one day. One cannot be that stupid enough to tempt fate, without it finding its way there, eventually.

"Kinda irrational don't you think?...Something you inherited?"

Irrational? Me? Let me put it this way; If there ever comes a day that someone puts those people out of their misery, I would drop everything on my plate to travel to their funerals to hold up the most outrageous sign I can conjure up, in a show of total disrespect

If ever there were something that we foes could find some common ground to agree with each other, I would have thought that an opposition to the WBC would be it.

I guess not.

December 16, 2012 at 9:37 p.m.
alprova said...

Jesse wrote: "I don't think the folks in Newtown need to deal w/anymore killing right now,no matter how well the WBC needs it!"

You are so right, which is why I hope it doesn't happen, but there are people getting sick and tired of these people showing up at funerals, and one day, someone is going to snap. Of that I have no doubt.

For them to show up at funerals for 20 children, may just do it for someone who may have the desire to go out of this life as a national hero.

December 16, 2012 at 9:44 p.m.
alprova said...

Game On quoted: "The father of Newtown Connecticut school shooter Adam Lanza is Peter Lanza who is a VP and Tax Director at GE Financial. The father of Aurora Colorado movie theater shooter James Holmes is Robert Holmes, the lead scientist for the credit score company FICO. Both men were to testify before the US Sentate in the ongoing LIBOR scandal."

If, and I do mean if, there is a shred of truth to this, it is nothing more than an amazing coincidence.

I think a call for a more credible source is in order.

December 16, 2012 at 9:52 p.m.
GameOn said...

Al....I did not say it was credible but I did mean to note that it was intriguing.

December 16, 2012 at 10:21 p.m.
GameOn said...

I admit I did a drive by on that one. I went back and read more. I did not realize how big of a scam the LIBOR thing is but without a witness list, we will never know about the connection.

December 16, 2012 at 10:46 p.m.
alprova said...

Game on wrote: "Al....I did not say it was credible but I did mean to note that it was intriguing."

And my call for a more credible source was not a personal attack on you. It was just a thought that it's a little too coincidental.

It most certainly is intriguing, if true.

December 16, 2012 at 10:49 p.m.
fairmon said...

happywithnewbulbs said... Fairmon, you value childrens's education that little? It's about paying for the value of the job in order to get the quality you want.

It should be about the knowledge, skill and ability of the person doing the job not the job. It goes without saying the job is very important, critical and valuable. It is not desireable to retain and pay those not performing the job equal to it's importance but they are protected to the point they cannot be terminated so parity in pay is the result. It should be about improved techniques utilizing the best of the best to reach more students. The union and school administrators have the educational process almost as dysfunctional as congress. It may be time to move to charter schools for students and parents truly interested in a good education.

December 17, 2012 at 6:34 a.m.
fairmon said...

Alpro, I had never heard of the WBC but your comment and video prompted me to check them out. The fact the WBC has several lawyers as members leads me to agree with you, the country would be well served if they were eliminated.

December 17, 2012 at 6:57 a.m.
conservative said...

A gift offered to everyone, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the giftof God:

December 17, 2012 at 8:26 a.m.
rolando said...

"Only rednecks and folks with limited vocabularies use the word [shrink]."

easy -- Your credibility is seldom, if ever, outside a clogged septic tank. But enough humor.

Mirriam-Webster's complete medical definition is actually, ": a clinical psychiatrist or psychologist—called also headshrinker"

A headshrinker is, of course, also an Amazonian head-hunter who "shrinks" the heads of his victims. A most appropriate term when applied to mental health professionals and semi-professionals. Of course they don't like the term. It is viewed as a derogatory term to many shrinks...because the truth hurts. It is broadly used today to include essentially all clueless mental health professionals. Which is what they are: "clueless".

Their success rate abysmally lower than your intelligence, moral, and/or emotional quotients; they are wannabe "scientists" searching for a science.

Go suck rocks, preferably in your mom's basement. You, too, alpo. Do it together.

December 17, 2012 at 9:02 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - I agree. And, please note that gift really is for everyone, everyone and without exception.

December 17, 2012 at 9:02 a.m.
rolando said...

Pick a page, MTJohn. Have you researched the history yet?

December 17, 2012 at 9:04 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Rolando - I'm still waiting for you to tell me on which page DSM I can find the definition of shrink.

December 17, 2012 at 9:05 a.m.
rolando said...

As I said, MTJohn, pick a page...and get back to me after you research the history of the tome. Then we can talk...if you wish.

December 17, 2012 at 9:10 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Rolando - I'm sure that terms like psychiatrist, psychologist, nurse practitioner, etc. occur many times in the DSM. Please cite a page that specifically uses "shrink".

If you are as knowledgeable about mental illness as you claim to be, then you also know that the stigma associated with the disease is a significant impediment to improving the way we treat people who suffer from mental illness. Yet, you insist on using terms that perpetuate the stigma. As I suggested above, you have compromised your own credibility on this subject.

December 17, 2012 at 9:21 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, the offered gift of Salvation must be received and not rejected, God does not force Salvation on anyone.

December 17, 2012 at 9:27 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - I agree. And, as St. Paul noted, it is a gift received by faith - NOT by refraining from our sinful behavior.

December 17, 2012 at 9:31 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said... "MTJohn, the offered gift of Salvation must be received and not rejected, God does not force Salvation on anyone."

God, Jesus, and the Holy Spook certainly weren't around for the innocent children and adults at the schoolhouse, were they?

Not much salvation by the trinity. I imagine those being killed called out God's name for help but the old goat was too busy talking with Mike Huckabee and Fred Phelps to be bothered.

God is one screwed up father. In America he'd be thrown in jail for failure to provide child support, crimes against nature, and mass murder.Some father figure.

December 17, 2012 at 9:38 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando, your use of the word "shrink" is probably as offensive to those professionals who practice clinical psychiatry or psychology as using the word "pig" to describe a law enforcement officer, which can be found in Webster's as well.

Pig - Offensive Slang Used as a disparaging term for a police officer.

It comes down to respect, which is something that you have proven to have no desire to show to others consistently. The very thought that you and conservative hold yourself out to be shining examples as Christians is offensive. Maybe one day you will both find the true meaning of Christianity, but I fear you are both set for life.

"easy -- Your credibility is seldom, if ever, outside a clogged septic tank."

Would you care to poll the group for a better consensus on that? He's quite bright and rather informed for a young man his age.

And as one who has expressed yourself to be a birther, your attacking someone else's credibility only elicites a great, big yawn.

"Go suck rocks, preferably in your mom's basement. You, too, alpo. Do it together."

Aw...gee...that one really hurt. Sucking rocks? I'm not sure what pleasure I am to derive from such an act. I'm not sure that a rock would get much out of it either.

As usual, you expect people to prove your points, which are never proven. You just slink away, thinking that you have accomplished something.

Send me your address. Gerber's baby food is on sale this week at Bi-Lo. I'd love to send you a few jars for Christmas.

December 17, 2012 at 9:40 a.m.
jesse said...

Here ya go mtjon!took about 15 seconds!

http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/shrink

Got some nit pickers on here for sure!

The term "shrink is not derogatory, orthapedic doc's are called "bone benders".surgeons "slicers" etc. !this is what they call each other!

December 17, 2012 at 9:41 a.m.
MTJohn said...

daytonsdarwin said..."God, Jesus, and the Holy Spook certainly weren't around for the innocent children and adults at the schoolhouse, were they?"

dayton - It certainly is true that violence as we regularly see it in our society is not God's will. It is true that God's presence at the school shooting in Newtown cannot be demonstrated with scientific evidence. And, it may be true that God's presence for the innocent may not have been evident in ways that would make any sense to us. But, just as I cannot prove that God was present and present as the Author of the law of love, you cannot disprove God's presence, even in circumstances where the evidence of evil is overwhelming.

December 17, 2012 at 9:54 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Jesse - I could have done that myself from Rolando's post. However, please note that link does not go to the DSM.

December 17, 2012 at 9:57 a.m.
jesse said...

The DSM is a medical tome!

They are not gonna use slang!

The medical profession themselves use this terminology in every day conversations!

IF rolando was one of the leftest clique on here this would never have been questioned! Kinda has a reek of tu or easy about it!

December 17, 2012 at 10:05 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

MtJohn said, "But, just as I cannot prove that God was present and present as the Author of the law of love, you cannot disprove God's presence, even in circumstances where the evidence of evil is overwhelming."

You can't provide the evidence for God, much less the super-baby Jesus and the Flying Holy Ghost. Myths and superstitions that cause great harm when believed as real entities.

Faith? I'd say those killed had faith that God would save them, protect them, help them.

The trite phrase "God works in mysterious ways" is BS and a cop-out. God doesn't work; neither does faith in imaginary deities.

December 17, 2012 at 10:23 a.m.

fairmon, and that's where you are wrong, because you are putting the priority NOT on the importance of the job, but on the perceived value of the person who you think is doing the job. (which is itself often a lie promulgated by those who prefer to create a myth where the teacher is the enemy).

You can complain about bad teachers. But if you don't realize that you can't fix that problem by racing to the bottom, then you're never going to solve it anyway.

And sure you want to say you only get rid of the bad teachers, but the reality is that it's often good teachers that get the axe, because they don't conform, but stand out, and sometimes even dare to defy the parents and administrators who just want things to cruise along. The bad teachers? They're the ones who fill out all the forms properly, and never raise any kind of protest. They are the ones that the poor administrators and inept school boards want, because that way they can keep running the system as they choose. Which, BTW, is not uniform across the country, but highly diversified. Believe it or not, there are great schools in this country, and poor ones, and sometimes the differences and causes are quite unique. But it's certainly not a monolithic problem.

But charter schools? Now there's a money pit that exists not to educate students, but to siphon money away from the actual education in the name of selling the rest of us a miracle cure of snake oil.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/16/1167685/-Charter-schools-don-t-perform-as-advertised-but-try-getting-their-advocates-to-admit-that?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+dailykos%2Findex+(Daily+Kos)

Sorry, but they won't have improved techniques, or good teachers, they'll just be carving out their own dysfunctional slice of the pie.

Feel free to keep buying whatever think-tank's sales pitch you're buying though. I'm sure you'll realize that you're just giving them money to solve a problem they probably manufactured.

December 17, 2012 at 10:36 a.m.
MTJohn said...

jesse said..."The DSM is a medical tome! They are not gonna use slang!"

Thanks for making the point. And, if Rolando were to speak credibly on the subject, he would not have used slang, either - especially not a term that perpetuates the stigma associated with mental illness.

December 17, 2012 at 10:39 a.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, yes you are right, simply because no one has refrained from sinful behavior:

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Romans 3:10-12

Also, "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23

However, one who is a child of God and who will inherit the kingdom of God will NOT make a practice of sinning. This is the point I have been making concerning those who practice homosexuality.

I wish you would share these verses with your homosexual friends - No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.1 John 3:9-10 ASV.

December 17, 2012 at 10:39 a.m.
Maximus said...

Wow, you guys are really unfamiliar with how the 1% live! Own second home with multiple garages in Hobe Sound, FL. Yes, I do own an ipad and iphone but still wear a Rolex. I do collect vintage upscale watches. It's this thing called a HOBBY. Classic cars are also a passion. Golf Clubs: Have several sets currently playing Titleist SureFit 910 Driver and metals, Titleist AP2 forged irons, Vokey wedges, and Scotty Cameron Detour putter, Titleist ProV1-392 Ball Political Party: Red State Republican (We shall return) Favorite Food: Red Meat Cigar: Cuban Favorite Movie: a tie...Gladiator, Remember The Titans Female Preference: Firm Blondes Rules for Radicals....Never let a crisis go to waste. After my Cowboys beat the Steelers watched a great Patriots vs. Niners game and low and behold about mid way through the first quarter Obamer breaks in with a long, fake, heart wrenching speech from a church in Conn. DaytonDar u would have hated it because he mentioned God and scripture more than a good Baptist preacher. Obama really fancies himself as our King and that he has to stick his nose into every aspect of our lives. I thought the school shooting was a STATE issue! Will the Welfare Pimp Obama start giving a nationally televised speech every time 28 people are killed in one night in his thug hometown of Chicago? At least the Niners won. I can't stand Brady and those Blue State Yankee Patriots. Cheers!

December 17, 2012 at 10:42 a.m.
MTJohn said...

daytonsdarwin - I acknowledged that I cannot prove the existence of God. I respect your right to deny God's existence. But, for the same reason I cannot prove God's existence, you cannot disprove it.

I'm not suggesting that you ought to change your perspective, but I think you misunderstand the Christian understanding of faith. Faith is all about holding on to the relationship that our Creator has established and to which the Creator has invited us to engage. There is nothing about faith to suggest Christians get any special protections in the middle of evil events - only the promise that God goes with us in those situations.

December 17, 2012 at 10:47 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

MtJohn said, "Faith is all about holding on to the relationship that our Creator has established and to which the Creator has invited us to engage. There is nothing about faith to suggest Christians get any special protections in the middle of evil events - only the promise that God goes with us in those situations."

Proof of a Creator? There is none. I don't have to disprove anything. I can't disprove leprechauns, pink elephants, Ba'al, Zeus, or any other imaginary superstition. It's always up the the claimant to offer support (evidence) of their claims.

MtJohn said, "There is nothing about faith to suggest Christians get any special protections in the middle of evil events - only the promise that God goes with us in those situations."

Why believe in an imaginary deity who then is useless? At least Batman and Superman would have tried to stop the mass murder. Those two are more worthy of honor than an ineffectual deity.

That's the reason the "religion as reality" has no place in public schools, government, and public places. Keep religion in churches, mosques, homes, and private property. I have no problems with that.

The study of all religions should be in the same category as myths as that is what they are. Seeking to turn Jehovah, Zeus, Apollo, Allah, or Jesus into the realm of fact is superstitious BS.

December 17, 2012 at 11:05 a.m.
Rebus said...

daytonsdarwin seems to be the jerry falwell of non-believers. Why the fervor?

December 17, 2012 at 11:17 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Rebus said...

daytonsdarwin seems to be the jerry falwell of non-believers. Why the fervor?

Because belief in imaginary beings, superstitions, and dogmatic actions of their followers just isn't cutting it in the age of science and reason.

I'm not like Jerry Falwell as I won't condemn you to hell for not believing in the existence of science and reason.

Christopher Hitchens had a great line about Fallwell. "If you gave [Jerry] Falwell an enema he could be buried in a matchbox."

December 17, 2012 at 11:24 a.m.
MTJohn said...

daytonsdarwin - I'm not asking you to support your claims. I'm just suggesting that the tenets of theology and science do not mix. You and I agree that it is inappropriate to use Biblical texts in an effort to disprove the theory of evolution. I'm suggesting that it is equally inappropriate to use science to disprove the concept of divine creation. That whole debate makes about as much sense as trying to calculate the square root of a dangling participle.

I also agree with you that there should be no place for religion in public schools, the Ten Commandments in courthouses, seasonal displays of religious symbols at public expense etc. Moreover, I think we would agree that do reduce such debates to terms like "the war on Christmas" is nonsense.

I do not believe that God promises to protect me or my children in circumstances like school shootings. Likewise, I do not believe that the recruitment of "Bible thumping" generals gives us the assurance that God will deliver us from all of our enemies. As I stated above, I do believe that God invites each of us into a personal relationship and, from that relationship, invites us to see God's face in others who are less fortunate and/or different from ourselves. There is nothing useless about that kind of deity. And, from that perspective (you may call it biased), God has been at work all over the place in Newtown Connecticut.

December 17, 2012 at 11:32 a.m.
MTJohn said...

Rebus - daytonsdarwin and I are engaged in a respectful conversation. I appreciate that he and I are able to disagree without being disagreeable.

December 17, 2012 at 11:33 a.m.
alprova said...

I appreciate reading it too.

December 17, 2012 at 11:44 a.m.
MTJohn said...

conservative said..."However, one who is a child of God and who will inherit the kingdom of God will NOT make a practice of sinning."

Right, except that in that post, you contradicted yourself. When did you give up the practice of sinning? If you are really honest with yourself, you have to come to the conclusion that you have not. That puts you in the same boat as the homosexual (assuming your understanding of homosexuality as a sin). You and he have the same life preserver - GRACE.

To the rest of you, my apologies. Conservative and I should be having this conversation in the other thread. And, conservative, if you expect me to respond again, answer over there - NOT here.

December 17, 2012 at 11:44 a.m.
alprova said...

It's okay MtJohn...conversations in here have a way of taking turns and twists.

December 17, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
miraweb said...

WBC in America

I cannot vouch for this, but I am pretty sure that on days when the Crips and Bloods call things off and have group picnics, they spend all their time discussing how distasteful they find Westboro Baptist.

And that is the strange blessing of the Westboro Baptist Church: It brings people together. Remember when the KKK denounced it? When do you have large swaths of Americans nodding to themselves and saying, “I have to agree with the KKK on this one.”

That’s certainly why we keep writing about the church. Since He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Invoked-In-Comparisons-In-Arguments-On-The-Internet, it’s hard to find anyone that we so readily agree is just, well, irredeemably awful.

The darkest moment is always just before Westboro members show up. But their hideous signs serve no larger purpose than to attract attention. Their constant tweets threatening to protest funerals are tired and tiresome. It’s all empty, deliberate provocation.

And the response to that sort of stupidity is not to flag it or ban it. It’s to let it speak for itself and to be drowned out by thousands of indignant and compassionate responses.

Alexandra Petri, Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2012/12/17/the-strange-blessing-of-westboro-baptist-church/

December 17, 2012 at 11:57 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

MtJohn, It appears that your position on Christianity is more a psychological viewpoint than a historical and literal one. I have no problem with that as you do not seem to be the type that would inflict their Christianity on others at gun point, the edge of a sword, or political and judicial decrees.

As I have stated before myths give us stories to examine the mysteries of existence. It's when those who believe such myths as factual AND their attempts to control others with those myths that I have issues.

In that spirit I have no problem wishing you a "Merry Christmas."

December 17, 2012 at 12:22 p.m.
MTJohn said...

daytonsdarwin - I'm not sure I understand the distinction that you are drawing regarding my viewpoint. I am a lifelong Christian. I do aspire to live within my faith. While I'm comfortable sharing it with others, I try to do so in a way that is respectful. And, I struggle with faith. Necessarily, faith requires holding an idea as true often in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary. Faith requires that I put my confidence in God, in spite of my doubts. In fact, I don't think the opposite of faith is doubt. Rather, I think the opposite is more like certitude, i.e. putting too much confidence in my own ability to reason my way back to God.

Thank you for the conversation and for the sentiment. I also wish you and your family all of the blessings of the holiday season, in whatever manner you choose to celebrate.

December 17, 2012 at 12:42 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Each person develops a psychological viewpoint throughout their life. It can (and should) change as one becomes aware of the universe.

As a child I believed (in essence, I was taught at church and Sunday School) that God created the universe, that man was born in sin, that the Bible was literal and inerrant, that if you died without baptism you would go to a literal hell.

When I was twelve, I began to question that viewpoint. By age 15 I rejected that viewpoint through the studies of history, science, physics,and philosophy, as just a myth by ancient peoples to understand their environment and their sensed working of nature.

That was no different that my rejection of Poseidon in the seas, Zeus on Mt. Olympus, Zoroasterism in Persia, Khrishna in India, as literal beings that I should worship.

But I did understand the psychological viewpoints of those myths and how one could obtain an mythological relationship of oneness with those myths, but never in a literal and historical way.

That's the reason that we still study the ancients myths of Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Indians, to glean knowledge of human nature of mankind's struggle to account for meaning and participation in the mysteries of existence. But never as reality, never as divine scriptures being a true history, never as imaginary beings in stories as actual beings controlling human destinies, listening to supplications, and willing some to prosper and others to suffer.

The thought that anyone would believe that Zeus, Apollo, or Demeter are actual gods, toying with humanity, demanding meat sacrifices and vestal virgins would be ridiculous. The same with Jehovah, Jesus, and Mary.

But as psychological perceptions, as stories to influence humanity's relationship with each other, the environment, the universe, those myths have value.

Myths do not have to be literal facts to be of value. When people attempt to make those myths reality, the result is the same throughout history — war, persecutions, and pestilence.

December 17, 2012 at 1:10 p.m.
Maximus said...

Worst School Mass Killing-1927-Bath Township, MI, 38 kids, 7 adults killed. Killer Andrew Kehoe used dynamite. Kehoe was pissed because he lost a city election. My point, these terrible events cannot be totally obliterated from society no matter how many laws are passed. Obama is hinting that "we" need to do something. In other words, the advancement of the left wing gun control agenda. Here is the simple answer that would greatly discourage some of these cowardly wackos from shooting up schools...train a designated number of school personnel on the safe use of Glocks. The Air Marshalls now in place have helped in reducing airline high jacks so too would arming a number of people in our schools. We already have some police precinct offices located in large high schools. But no.....the democrats are going to pound this issue blaming the guns instead of the perps. As the story evolves my call is that little genius Adam Lanza sent out all types of red flags and Mom medicated him or ignored him. The kid should have been locked up long ago. It was not the guns but the kids parents and our liberal mental health system that produced Adam the monster. Very difficult to get someone committed to state hospitals these days because wackos have "patient rights". Usually you have to go to court and it can take weeks while your so called genius kid is threatening to kill you. Nice!

December 17, 2012 at 1:19 p.m.
jesse said...

Here's a link for ya Darwin!

You ,knowing you intrests,have prob.allready read it BUT just in case! This kinda stuff fascinates me big time,and to me is just as plausible as anything else!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/12/physicists-universe-simulation-test-university-of-washington-matrix_n_2282745.html?utm_hp_ref=science&ir=Science

December 17, 2012 at 1:22 p.m.
Rebus said...

Only the dead know for sure.

December 17, 2012 at 1:34 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, you addressed me, you started the conversation and once again when you are confronted with God's word which refutes you, you want to end the conversation and direct me to "the other thread" wherever that might be. No, you are going to have to face your false doctrine before your agreeing friends, many who are professing and practicing atheist.

"can two walk together except they be agreed?" Amos 3:3 More to come.

December 17, 2012 at 1:36 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - you have hijacked every thread since the cartoon regarding gay marriage. That is the other thread.

And, I do not believe there is anything false about Romans 5:8 - for God shows His love for us in this, while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us.

December 17, 2012 at 2:03 p.m.
rolando said...

MTJohn -- If you are so "sure that terms like psychiatrist, psychologist, nurse practitioner, etc. occur many times in the DSM", give us an example, please. Oh. You STILL haven't researched/read its content? Hm-m-m.

You and alpo continuously make general statements in saying various things like, "...use of the word "shrink" is probably as offensive to those professionals who practice clinical psychiatry or psychology as using the word "pig" to describe a law enforcement officer..." Neither of you know much about the subject. Alpo very carefully phrases his hits so they cannot come back to haunt him [usually] using "probably" and "sometimes" a lot.

First of all, calling a cop a pig is not only exceedingly dumb but is highly disrespectful of someone in an honorable profession...something that cannot be said about shrinks.

Policemen actually STOP crime...shrinks fail to stop [or cure] anything. Pedophiles make an excellent example of the dichotomy: Roughly half of all pedophiles do not repeat their offense once caught...OUT OF FEAR OF THE LAW, not because of anything their shrink had to say about it. Something like 25% do not repeat their act because of society/honest remorse. The rest of them repeat it, some over and over...says a lot right there about how their "therapy" helped them. That's a 25% cure rate max...discounting spontaneous or self-imposed correction. A while back, there was a quietly conducted attempt to remove "pedophilia" from the list of paraphilias...but the public found out about it.

December 17, 2012 at 2:47 p.m.
dao1980 said...

Indeed jesse, those are fascinating ideas to ponder.

I think most folks who prefer to live inside the man-made box of religious theologies need to spend a little more effort attempting to grasp the implications presented by the vastness of the universe and the unfathomable depths of time itself.

I can't help but get a little laugh each time I hear someone casually refer to "forever" when speaking about heaven or hell. Most of the time those who would expect to spend "forever" somewhere, are already (after just one lifetime of years) in a state of psychological decay, and can't even understand what they are implying about remaining conscious (in one state or another) for the rest of time.

Of course, I would read this thread to find that (at no surprise) conservative is being as belligerent a fool as ever, while the gracious, patient and well spoken MTJohn works ever diligently to force him into purposeful conversation.

AND, haha, here is this "maximus" character explaining in detail to the internet how rich and awesome he is? Hilarious!

What a lying B.S. looser.. I can guarantee, anyone who is part of this "1%" is not on the TFP web page "hollerin" mouth-breather style about baby jesus, guns, reds vs blues, and the prez.

I also seriously doubt anyone with REAL cashola would ever allow themselves to be caught casually bragging in an "every-man forum" about the things they buy with it, like some dumb/fresh newbie on the richy-rich block.

December 17, 2012 at 2:50 p.m.
rolando said...

darwin said [in part] "...the type that would inflict their Christianity on others at gun point, the edge of a sword, or political and judicial decrees."

You obviously made a Freudian slip there, darwin, and meant those MUSLIMS who do that.

Christians pretty well stopped that about 800 years ago...the Muslims STILL haven't stopped.

December 17, 2012 at 2:56 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

rolando, The subject in discussion was Christianity. Wake up.

Christians have done those very acts lest you forget the Spanish in Mexico and South America and Southwestern North America, the French, Dutch, and English in North America, the Spanish and American invasion of the Philippines,the Hitlerian invasions (Gott Mit Uns) throughout Europe and persecution and murder of millions, the American wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Viet Nam, the English Civil Wars, but history is not your strong suit, just religious blather.

Of course some Muslims do that too. So do the ultra-orthodox Jews, the animists in Africa, wherever you have god or gods that are "real" you've got the killing that goes with it.

If you're killed by someone for their god, does it really matter which god?

December 17, 2012 at 3:10 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Rolando,

"If you are so "sure that terms like psychiatrist, psychologist, nurse practitioner, etc. occur many times in the DSM", give us an example, please. Oh. You STILL haven't researched/read its content? Hm-m-m."

"Psychiatrist" was used 9 times in DSM-I (published in 1952)

"Psychologist" wasn't used because the DSM is published by the American Psychiatric Association and, of course, psychologists and psychiatrists are different professions.

"Nurse" was also used once in DSM-I

http://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/data/PDFS/dsm-i.pdf

That blew up in your face... LMFAO!


"Neither of you know much about the subject."

Neither do you. That's been pointed out many times.


"First of all, calling a cop a pig is not only exceedingly dumb but is highly disrespectful of someone in an honorable profession...something that cannot be said about shrinks."

You just don't know when to quit. You just keep discrediting yourself.


The sentence below:

"shrinks fail to stop [or cure] anything."

is contradicted by this one:

"That's a 25% cure rate max"


"Roughly half of all pedophiles do not repeat their offense once caught...OUT OF FEAR OF THE LAW, not because of anything their shrink had to say about it."

Did you take a poll or something? It's all conjecture with you.

Once again, you have wedged your foot firmly in your mouth. How many times do you think you can discredit your own words by continuing to argue for your bias? No one is going to take you seriously on this subject. Pick another one so you can at least feign some credibility, only to see it get washed away as usual.

December 17, 2012 at 3:16 p.m.

Maximus, actually it was more complicated than just losing an election. But he used an explosive, that was highly unregulated.

After that, they started regulating them.

And no, the biggest problem with state hospitals is the lack of beds. Somebody cut their funding.

Though if you think the parent's response was anything liberal, or new, for that matter, you're really unfamiliar with parenting and how they treat children. Liberals actually want to act on that problem, it's the conservative mantra that dogmatically demands Parent's Rights and chastises state workers for trying to help children.

December 17, 2012 at 3:27 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

As to violence of Christians, don't forget the Mountain Meadow Massacre in September 1857. This is where Mormons massacred over 125 men, women, and children under the theocracy of Brigham Young and the Mormon Church.

December 17, 2012 at 3:53 p.m.
raygunz said...

Last night it also emerged Nancy Lanza(mother of shooter,Adam) was a member of the Doomsday Preppers movement, which believes people should prepare for end of the world.

Her former sister-in-law Marsha said she had turned her home ‘into a fortress’. She added: ‘Nancy had a survivalist philosophy which is why she was stockpiling guns. She had them for defense.

‘She was stockpiling food. She grew up on a farm in New Hampshire. She was skilled with guns. We talked about preppers and preparing for the economy collapsing.’

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/12/wow_waiting_for_the_apocalypse.php?ref=fpblg

ponder that!

December 17, 2012 at 3:59 p.m.
fairmon said...

happywiththenewbulbs said to fairmon....

Feel free to keep buying whatever think-tank's sales pitch you're buying though. I'm sure you'll realize that you're just giving them money to solve a problem they probably manufactured.

I am buying nothing nor am I contribtuing beyond taxes. I have been the recipient of the educational systems products when hiring. I appreciate your suggesting I feel to form my own opinion, which I did and will do in the future. The federal government should have no role in local and state schools, the only contribution made is to drive up the cost at all levles, especially colleges. The unions contribute nothing to the educational process. They do prohibit the use of improved processes, advanced techniques and resources while protecting incompetent teachers. I realize and acknowledge that school board members and elected officials contribute to the futility of public schools.

December 17, 2012 at 4:44 p.m.

double-post.

December 17, 2012 at 5:06 p.m.

fairmon, it seems you are, when you suggest the idea that charter schools may be the solution.

If you think so, you might want to be more skeptical.

But no, the job of the union isn't to serve the educational process directly, their job is to serve the teachers with representation to protect their interests in negotiations with the administration. Who gladly blames the teachers for the failings, while never recognizing their own faults.

Including buying into the "improved processes, advanced techniques and resources" which certain sales professionals are glad to try to foist off on to the local school systems. Particularly the standardized testing fetish.

And do keep thinking the federal government is failing schools. That's just another way to find somebody else to blame, a way to use rhetoric to drive propaganda.

And I wonder what you'd say if you met more of the teachers rather than just the one side. Or more of the achievers. Who may not be interested in the jobs you're offering.

Sometimes one's perspective isn't representative of the whole pool.

December 17, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, you asked "When did you give up the practice of sinning?" Well, when God saved me He indwelt me with the Holy and I was born again. God then started the process of Sanctification whereby my sins became less and less.

You see MTJohn God didn't save me to continue my prior lifestyle for then Christ would have died in vain for God doesn't merely save one from the penalty of sin but the power and practice of sin as well. It is a process and that process is called Sanctification. This is Bible doctrine.

You have a problem understanding the clear teaching of Scripture or you refused to believe the clear teaching of Scripture. Again, a portion of Scripture I previously gave you :

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning." 1 John 3:9.

MTJohn, No one ( Notice you are not excluded ) born of God makes a practice ( note that word ) of sinning.

Now, either you are right are God is right? You both can't be right. I will take God's word on the matter and not yours, rest assured.

December 17, 2012 at 5:21 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - I understand the doctrine of Sanctification. You didn't stop sinning before the Spirit began work in you. And, even though the Spirit is at work in you, you have yet to cease sinning. And, if you have not yet ceased from sinning, aren't you still making a practice of sinning?

December 17, 2012 at 5:29 p.m.
jesse said...

Is con man a member of W.B.C.?

Or does he just enjoy being simple minded?

December 17, 2012 at 5:30 p.m.
miraweb said...

Large investors - including those managing teachers' pensions - are taking a very close look at their holdings in gun companies after the shootings.

In the research that is coming to light, it turns out the major national organization for gun manufacturers is located in - Newtown, Connecticut.

The NSSF's monthly newsletter is called "Pull the Trigger".

The office is a mile and a half from the school - and across the street from the Newtown Village Cemetery.


National Shooting Sports Foundation

Flintlock Ridge Office Center

11 Mile Hill Road

Newtown, CT 06470-2359

NSSF Members

Smith & Wesson - Greenberg Traurig LLP

Sturm Ruger & Co

Olin Corp

Herstal Group

Colt Firearms

Berretta USA - Owned by American Defense International

Bushmaster - Owned by Freedom Group - who is owned by Cerberus Capital Management

Remington - Owned by Freedom Group - who is owned by Cerberus Capital Management

Hornady Manufacturing Company


http://www.nssf.org/Industry/

http://news.muckety.com/2012/12/17/gun-industry-trade-group-is-based-in-newtown-ct/39781

December 17, 2012 at 5:35 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Con-man has his own WBC going on: Whacked-out Beyond Comprehension. He's whacked out enough to be scary. It's the ones who think they're "sanctified" and washed in the Holy Spirit who are the ones we have to worry about the most. It's only a matter of time before he hears the voice of God telling him to carry out some idiotic holy command against the "heathens". People like con-man are so full of their self righteousness they become inhuman and can no longer even relate to humanity, except to see everyone not of their faith as lost souls and sinners. It's disgusting. And sad.

December 17, 2012 at 5:52 p.m.
miraweb said...

This was the statement by the NSSF after the Aurora, Colorado massacre:

Instead of focusing on the main problem, the actions of a mentally disturbed person, the focus has once again shifted to legislating law-abiding citizens who use firearms for legitimate purposes. The tragedy in Colorado is not about firearms, ammunition or magazines. It’s about the act of a mad man and gaining access to firearms. We abhor the criminal misuse of firearms.

This was their statement this week:

Our hearts go out to the families of the victims of this horrible tragedy in our community. Out of respect for the families, the community and the ongoing police investigation, it would be inappropriate to comment or participate in media requests at this time.

http://nation.time.com/2012/12/15/in-the-shadow-of-sandy-hook-a-powerful-pro-gun-organization-keeps-silent/

December 17, 2012 at 6:02 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, No, you don't understand the doctrine of Sanctification and you refuse to believe the Scripture passages I have presented.

No, my pattern of sin is less as I "grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" 2 Peter 3:18.

There will be myriad who outwardly show no open rebellion and disobedience to God, however, some sinful lifestyles are easily recognized such as these listed here who will not inherit the kingdom of God:

" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Look at the verses and "do not be deceived" MTJohn.

December 17, 2012 at 6:25 p.m.
MTJohn said...

jesse said...

"Here's a link for ya Darwin!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/12/12/physicists-universe-simulation-test-university-of-washington-matrix_n_2282745.html?utm_hp_ref=science&ir=Science"

Thanks for an interesting read, Jesse. It leaves lots to be pondered. The first two questions that come to my mind are 1) who is running the computer and 2) what did he/she/it/them learn from this iteration?

As I think about stuff like this, it also occurs to me that science can do a pretty good job of describing the universe, as we encounter it in this age. But, isn't science, just like us, bound by this age? Stated differently, if this age is but a computer simulation, isn't physics confined to the limits of the current operating system? How do we know whether the previous iteration ran on the same platform?

December 17, 2012 at 6:34 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

There's no reasoning, conversations, or dialog with Conservative. He's a "true believer" in the most pejorative sense of the phrase.

Be glad and rejoice you don't live with him, by him, or are kin to him. That's a blessing!

December 17, 2012 at 6:35 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, regarding your "That puts you in the same boat as the homosexual." well, no it doesn't for I am not a practicing homosexual :

" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

I don't practice any of those sins on that list, especially homosexuality. However, before God saved me I was a pretty heavy drinker so I would have come under the title drunkard which is on the list. Do you see something here? Those who are saved and who will inherit the kingdom of God may have practiced one or more of these things in the past, meaning they no longer practice these sins because :

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God" 1 John 3:9.

December 17, 2012 at 6:37 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - just like the homosexual, or anyone else, for that matter, you are a sinner. Do a little more introspection. Do you really love God with all your heart, soul and mind? Do you really love your neighbor as yourself? Then, think about the passage, "if anyone says he is without sin, the truth is not in him...But, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive our sins." I didn't look up that passage, so the wording might vary a little. You can look it up - it's somewhere in 1 John (1:9-10??) The point that I have tried to make over and over and over is that there is only one sin that separates us from God's love and from God's promise of forgiveness - that is the sin of unbelief. I have paraphrased that one, but you can look that one up, too.

December 17, 2012 at 7:01 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, Who is a believer? Is it the one who just merely agrees mentally that Jesus Christ died on a cross for one's sins but continues to live a life of disobedience to the will of God?

December 17, 2012 at 7:30 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, regarding your "(assuming your understanding of homosexuality as a sin)."

Well, I don't assume that homosexuality is a sin, I believe God's word on the matter, why don't you? Why don't you?

" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

December 17, 2012 at 7:35 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - that is not for either of us to judge. Acknowledging the limitations of my own ability to comprehend God, I am content to err on the side of Grace. And, from that perspective, you sound like a person who is a little too confident in your own ability to keep God's Law.

December 17, 2012 at 7:36 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, and the point I have made and proved to you with the word of God is that the practicing homosexual will not inherit the kingdom of God.

" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Do you think that these are exceptions to the sin of unbelief?

December 17, 2012 at 7:41 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Conservative - have you loved your wife as Christ loved the church? Have you committed adultery in your heart? How well do you handle covetousness? Do you consistently speak well of your neighbor? etc. etc. If you think salvation is achieved by keeping the law, you have to keep ALL of it. Don't give up on the life preserver.

December 17, 2012 at 7:48 p.m.
jesse said...

HEY EVERYBODY???

Do ya think if we ALL got borned agin and started AGREEING w/EVERY thing con man sez he would just shut the h#ll up!!!

I,M WILLING to try! This is gittin kinda "INSANE"?? BTW:mtjohn ,you ain't helpin any!!

December 17, 2012 at 7:50 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, I don't believe you are mistaken, I believe you are deliberately portraying me as someone who believes in works righteousness because I have quoted to many Scripture passages proving otherwise. Not a very good try on your part.

However, on your part you constantly pervert Grace. I will once again quote Scripture:

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Romans 6:1-2.

The answer is you can't!

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"

MTJohn, Salvation brings a transformation in the true believers life

December 17, 2012 at 7:54 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

I've decided that hell is a literal place and it consists of being locked in a room with Conservative forever and no gun in sight.

December 17, 2012 at 8:04 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, In all our discussions you have never once stated that homosexuality is a sin.

Is homosexuality a sin? Yes or No?

Is homosexuality comdemned by God? Yes or No?

Will a practicing homosexual inherit the kingdom of God? Yes or No? Herein lie the correct answers:

" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

December 17, 2012 at 8:04 p.m.
alprova said...

Is it just me, or does anyone else notice that conservative continuously repeats the talking points that Shirley Phelps-Roper offers every time she is in front of a camera or a microphone?

I've had more intelligent conversations with a sweet potato.

The man is a lost cause. He's consumed with self-righteousness and buried deep, deep in the closet.

December 17, 2012 at 8:08 p.m.
MTJohn said...

I don't think you believe in works righteousness for yourself. In fact, quite the contrary. But, the argument that you have consistently presented is that the Homosexual has to first keep the Law (at least your understanding of the Law) before he can be redeemed. Thus, I suggested several days ago that you are operating with one standard for yourself and a different understanding for the other.

I also agree that salvation brings a transformation. That is God's work and it is God's business - not yours or mine - to measure it.

I am very familiar with all of the passages that you have cited. Our difference is that I read them in the context of all of Scripture. And, the overarching context for all of the Pauline passages that you cited is the doctrine of justification, by grace, through faith.

Jesse - you are right. I tried to keep this in the other thread and a I apologize to you and others for not following through on my commitment to not participate in the hijacking of other threads. This will be my last post on this topic and I will concede the last word to Conservative.

December 17, 2012 at 8:09 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Did you notice that thumpers like Conservative, Orr, and others, always get on the homophobic kick?

Me thinks they're having them nasty thoughts! Who knows what Conservative said and did while he was a self-described drunkard? Maybe he's fighting the temptation to join the Village People.

Perhaps next year we'll see Conny leading the Pride march down Broadway dressed like Freddy Mercury.

Come out of the closet Conny! Put on your mother's clothes and have a gay, old time.

December 17, 2012 at 8:14 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

No need to apologize, MTJohn. While we disagreed you have conducted yourself as a good man who is a Christian. Conny, on the other hand, always conducts himself as neither a good man or a loving Christian. Rather, he's the voice of damnation. What a miserable life he must lead.

December 17, 2012 at 8:19 p.m.
Easy123 said...

MTJohn,

You're a good fellow. I've met a lot of Christians that I'm not very fond of e.g. Conservative, but you seem like a very considerate, reasonable person. Even if I do disagree with your religious beliefs, I do respect how you carry yourself on these threads and avoid proselytizing. The world would be a better place if more religious people approached their religion like you do.

Your approach is refreshing. Keep it up.

December 17, 2012 at 8:22 p.m.
conservative said...

Dayton,funny line. You have proved a great truth of Scripture.

Hebrews 4:12 KJV

For the word of God is quick , and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God troubles you and that is a good thing and a sure sign there is hope for you.

Don't think I read you it was just an accident so to speak that I caught your comment.

Also you were helpful in that you singled me out for your mental pain and not MTJohn. He never fooled you did he?

December 17, 2012 at 8:23 p.m.
conservative said...

MTJohn, "But, the argument that you have consistently presented is that the Homosexual has to first keep the Law (at least your understanding of the Law) before he can be redeemed."

Nope, not once, not ever, you cant't cite that and you know you can't cite that.

You refuse to believe the clear word of God:

" Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

BTW, I'm not going to search but go ahead and name the atheist who agree with you and then think about that.

December 17, 2012 at 8:31 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Conservative is a grade-A, premium cut douchebag with a side of ignoramus and a big pile of bigot to go with it. Include a tall glass of self-righteous ass hole to wash it down with.

" Would you like some delusional sauce with that?"

December 17, 2012 at 8:49 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Conny sputtered: "The word of God troubles you and that is a good thing and a sure sign there is hope for you."

Don't think I read you it was just an accident so to speak that I caught your comment.

Also you were helpful in that you singled me out for your mental pain and not MTJohn."

Behold, The word of god you speak troubleth me not as you are a false prophet and sick of mind. Yea, though I walk through the valley of cretins and thumpers, I shall have no mental pain, but a good laugh at their expense for they have shown themselves as talking asses, braying their vile and useless spittle upon the path I trod, protected by the Archangel Carlin in whose name I speak.

1st Fallopians, verse 8

December 17, 2012 at 8:54 p.m.
jesse said...

John has some class about him and conman is a pig!

BTW: Darwin are you sure that ain't 1st. Colostomies? Verse #2 i believe!

December 17, 2012 at 9:11 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

Pack up the babies and grab the old ladies, Brother Con's Traveling Salvation Show has pitched its tent. I may swing by and check out the freak show for myself if I can find my "GOD HATES NAGS" sign.

December 17, 2012 at 9:40 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

jesse said...

John has some class about him and conman is a pig!

BTW: Darwin are you sure that ain't 1st. Colostomies? Verse #2 i believe!

You're correct Jesse! I got that confused.

Ist Fallopians, v 8 is, "Conservative spoke and Jesus wept."

Thanks for keeping me straight!

December 17, 2012 at 9:51 p.m.
miraweb said...

The Atlantic is reporting that Walmart has pulled Bushmaster from its web site catalog. Three other assault style weapons remain.

December 17, 2012 at 9:56 p.m.
hambone said...

Maximus has a over-powering urge to tell everyone how smart and rich he is. Which means he's not either!

December 17, 2012 at 10:01 p.m.
miraweb said...

Or Max thinks it matters one whit to anyone but a small, sad group of social climbers. At the end of the day all we get to keep is a box and a rock.

The lawyers and the junk man will sort out the rest.

December 17, 2012 at 10:14 p.m.
fairmon said...

And I wonder what you'd say if you met more of the teachers rather than just the one side. Or more of the achievers. Who may not be interested in the jobs you're offering.

The achievers were there it was the sifting to find them that is so frustrating. A few short lived ones that should not have slipped in. It is hard to believe a H.S. grad can't pass an easy test with some unable to read or write very well. Hiring some of students from today's educational system is a lot like adopting a young kid.

I have met and talked with a lot of teachers, some very good ones. Many are frustrated with the system that forces parity and does not allow any creativity or deviation from the administration recipe. Testing, in my opinion, that grades a school but doesn't measure an individual students progress is a waste of time. I can't identify one thing the federal government does that is additive, other than cost, with all the dollars and D.C. hierarchy. Do away with the department entirely and save a lot of money.

December 18, 2012 at 12:17 a.m.

fairmon, not really, 70 billion is a lot to you and me, but not so much when it comes to the educational spending of the nation. That's because the Federal government has no real authority or capacity to do anything much regarding education. There's no overarching DC hierarchy to worry about, that's just the typical attempts for the local power structure to federalize the blame so as to have their own failings ignored. The Republican party would be much better off if they stopped trying to blame Washington for a lot of things, but the scapegoating in regards public education is an especially egregious farce. You want to see better run education systems? Check out some other countries. They apparently haven't collapsed due to a central authority.

But no, I'm not surprised that such people exist. They've been around for decades, even centuries. It's not today's system that is the problem for creating them, they were around long before.

You just didn't see their capacities so much due to the way society was structured. Now they're high-lighted and come across as a problem, as if they were new, when the reality is they've been part of humanity all along. Just ask some senior citizens if they recall any students who went off and got factory jobs rather than stayed in school. Or if they remember their parents talking about such things.

And IMO, most of the testing is just a waste of time, but hey, you want to deal with that additive cost, go right ahead. You can guess who was behind that. Well, maybe you can't. But you don't have to anyway.

December 18, 2012 at 12:40 a.m.
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