published Tuesday, December 18th, 2012

America Reacts

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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Anklejive said...

Good one, Mr. Bennett. But where's the Bible?

December 18, 2012 at 12:19 a.m.
dadamfo1 said...

I love your cartoons, but as a stay-at-home-dad and gun owner I found this one rather demeaning. I felt like someone punched me in the gut when I saw what had happened at Sandy Hook. I've written to my congressman asking for strict gun control laws, I've derided the relevance of the 2nd amendment in the 21st century, and begged for the parents of mentally ill children to get more help from the government. I never once cared if someone was going to take away my guns. If it will make my 6-year-old safer, then please take them.

December 18, 2012 at 12:35 a.m.

That's about half of the story.

There's a few dozen other points of view. But I recognize that there's only so much any one artist can draw in a single image within the relative amount of time.

December 18, 2012 at 12:47 a.m.
alprova said...

dadamfo1, It was indeed refreshing to read your post. THAT is the attitude that needs to be adopted from Americans, even the most adamant of all gun owners.

Just be clear, no one that I am aware of is proposing to confiscate all guns from private citizens in this nation. No one. There is a calling for the banning of weapons capable of dispensing numerous rounds of high caliber bullets in a very short period of time.

This would mainly include the banning of weapons categorized as assault rifles and uber-destructive ammunition from being allowed to be purchased and/or owned by private citizens.

I know of no one who has the desire, or sees any sense in banning all guns in this nation. Weapons with limited rounds of ammunition, low caliber in nature, for protection and hunting, are fine with most people.

I'm sure that parents across the nation, and the world for that matter, both men and women, have most likely hugged their kids a little tighter this past few days. Unfortunately, I suspect that there are parents who are having fleeting thoughts of yanking their kids out of public schools, in order to add a layer of security designed to keep them safe as well.

What happened in Newtown, Connecticut was unspeakable, unfathomable, and I'm still waiting for the official revelation of Adam Lanza's motive for shattering so many lives in a few seconds, and for unsettling an entire nation at the same time.

December 18, 2012 at 1:51 a.m.
fairmon said...

It is not possible to imagine the anxiety of those parents that lost their children unless you have had the experience. Think about being among those parents that now have to be reassuring to their 6-7 year old and older children across the country that it is safe for them to go to school while wondering if there will be a nutty copy cat trying to repeat this most heinous crime.

There is no simple solution or law that will fix and prevent some nut job from doing something similar in the future or it would be passed immediately. Any action needs to be logical, effective and enforceable with severe penalties for noncompliance. I pray those parents and families know the entire country mourns with them and that we realize we can only imagine their pain.

December 18, 2012 at 4:09 a.m.
EaTn said...

If Adam Lanza's mother could do it over, she probably would not have purchased the gun arsenal for home protection. As a gun owner and grandfather of small kids, I have to keep reminding myself of the fact that more kids are killed innocently with guns than bad-guys in defense of lives or property. We've become a paranoid nation.

December 18, 2012 at 5:45 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Only 2 of 28 murder victims buried (Lanza murdered himself too) and we're politicking already? Jesus wept; Mr Bennett mocked. (His cartoon omitted the guys wanting to come for the gun.)

OK, what laws might help? All but one of US public shootings of more than 3 people since at least A.D. 1950 have been done in gun-free zones, aka disarmed-victim zones; so outlaw such zones. (Source: John Lott. Exception: the Gabby Giffords shooting. Example: the Batman movie shooter drove past other theaters to reach one with signs saying no guns.)

Disarm madmen--a well regulated militia doesn't need them. Statistically this would probably help.

Become devout Christians, to whom executions and wars are a reluctant last resort.

December 18, 2012 at 6:08 a.m.
MeToo said...

Let us not forget the 4 thousand babies that are murdered each day,about 70 million total since abortion legalization.

December 18, 2012 at 7:01 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

Bennett would prefer the father to be hugging a tree. Where's the Bible? Ankejive, that's a dumb question to ask a flaming liberal Democrat who sits around all day drawing cartoons attacking the "right" of America.

December 18, 2012 at 7:27 a.m.
conservative said...

Thank you MeToo!

Timely too!

December 18, 2012 at 7:30 a.m.
alprova said...

MeToo wrote: "Let us not forget the 4 thousand babies that are murdered each day,about 70 million total since abortion legalization."

Another subject for another day. Pardon me, but you're a complete moron for attempting to bring it up in association with what happened at Sandy Hook Elementary.

December 18, 2012 at 7:30 a.m.
fairmon said...

America reacts and reacts and reacts....

Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI), in its brochure "Handgun Facts," points to Switzerland as one of the advanced nations with strict handgun laws." comment..their brochure is not complete therefore not accurate regarding laws and gun control in Switzerland. Every male is required to be trained in the use of and own a gun. The low crime rate is not due to owning or not owning guns.

What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership. While America cannot adopt the Swiss model, America can foster responsible gun ownership along more individualistic, American lines. Firearms safety classes in elementary schools, optional marksmanship classes in high schools and colleges, and the widespread availability of adult safety training at licensed shooting ranges are some of the ways that America can make its tradition of responsible gun use even stronger.

Cultural conditions, not gun laws, are the most important factors in a nation's crime rate. Young adults in Washington, D.C., are subject to strict gun control, but no social control, and they commit a staggering amount of armed crime. Young adults in Zurich are subject to minimal gun control, but strict social control, and they commit almost no crime.

Communities or cities that wish to prevent crime should encourage greater political decentralisation by developing small government units and encouraging citizen responsibility for obedience to the law and crime control."

Amother potentially wrong reaction...

Governments in Europe and the U.S. have decided that bankers and investors need to be attacked…

Last week, the European Union reached a deal with lawmakers to cap banker bonuses at twice their salaries. And we know that U.S. lawmakers plan to dramatically increase taxes on investors – by increasing taxes on dividends and capital gains.

You've got to PUNISH those greedy bankers and investors… right?

Japan's government is going the opposite way…

Japan's government is – God forbid – encouraging investment. Can you imagine such a thing?

It's true… To encourage people to invest in businesses, Japan's bank regulator has proposed that investors pay NO dividend tax or capital gains tax on the first million yen invested. The U.S. and Europe are in the opposite situation… Japan's government is removing barriers, so people will invest and put money to work in the Japanese economy.

capital – both dollars and human capital – flows to where it's treated best.

December 18, 2012 at 7:34 a.m.
Astropig said...

Fortunately for all of us,public policy is not made on the editorial page or by cartoons (like the above) designed to demagogue tragic events in order to snatch away our rights.The founding fathers knew that passions of the moment would lead to the erosion of the freedoms that they set out for us in the constitution.They knew that people like Clay would use these events to appeal to our fears in order to gain control over us. That's why they set in train a system that would demand a broad public consensus before the government could impair our rights and freedoms.We're at one of those moments in history that they correctly foresaw. Clay can pen all the cartoons in the world (while enjoying his own freedom that's constitutionally protected-freedom of the press),but if a determined group of pro-second amendment members of congress say so,we will keep our right to keep and bear arms. I feel better knowing that there's nothing he can do about that.

December 18, 2012 at 7:56 a.m.
alprova said...

No one is going to stop any of you Evangelical or militant Christians from seizing opportunity to blame Liberals for Sandy Hook "due to taking God out of public schools", but know this: You are all full of crap when you do it.

Most High Schools and Colleges have have religious groups and I know of no instance ever occurring in any public school when any child has been told that they are not allowed to read their Bible at appropriate times while in school.

There is a time and place for everything.

Biblical teachings in a public school may not be a part of the educational agenda, but religious beliefs are not banned nor prohibited. The lack of religion in schools is NOT the reason that the Sandy Hook or any other public school shooting occurred.

There have been at least as many shootings in churches where God has not been removed, as some people like to describe a focus on secular education in our public schools.

If you want to call yourself a good Christian, then prove it. Make a donation, bow your head and pray for the families of those who were killed, but most of all, try to be more caring toward others and try caring about **EVERYONE.""

A true Christian does not have to announce their Christianity, call for public prayer, nor quote scripture consistently.

A true Christian is one who inspires people to want what it is that they exemplify when they interact with their fellow humans on a daily basis. Judgments, condemnations, and attempting to speak on behalf of God or his Son, will never bring one closer to Heaven.

December 18, 2012 at 8:06 a.m.
alprova said...

I repeat...No one is proposing to take away all gun ownership rights.

But no private citizen needs access to any gun capable of dispensing multiple rounds of high caliber ammunition in seconds for personal protection or for hunting.

In my personal opinion, six rounds is all one needs for personal protection or for hunting.

I have a die-hard Republican best friend -- a fellow NRA member to boot, who disagrees with me.

He feels that three rounds are all one needs without having to pause and reload.

December 18, 2012 at 8:21 a.m.
klugermann said...

Sadly, another front page story in the local paper provides details about the firearms dealer who illegally provided a convicted felon, Jesse Matthews, with the gun that killed police Sgt. Tim Chapin.

We've been hearing the arguments on both sides for decades now: Assault weapons and high-capacity ammo clips pose an unnecessary risk to our entire population, yet they also provide comfort and solace to a very small minority of citizen-soldier-wannabes who fear that their own government is out to get them. Ironically, these same citizens are more than happy to vote for political leaders who push through limits to their personal liberties in the form of legislation like the 'Patriot Act'.

Just like every other time in our history when the most innocent and precious lives in our country have been tragically cut short, most people will feign outrage and clamor for change. Then they will do as they have always done before - settle into their la-z-boys, flip the channel, and let their brains go numb.

Or maybe not.

December 18, 2012 at 8:59 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Good cartoon, but you forgot to draw the caption above their heads. On the left, "Victims, those without a way to defend themselves from wackos." On the right "Legallly armed sane american unliekely to be a victim." Which do you think wacko killer will prey on? Be honest.

December 18, 2012 at 9:10 a.m.
patriot1 said...

MeToo...good point about abortion, and your are NOT a complete moron for bringing it up. When a society and a nation in particular, desensitizes the innocent killing of any stage of life, be it a fetus, child, adult or senior, that should be a part of the discussion. It won't be of course since guns are the easy "target" and politicans will act on emotions.

December 18, 2012 at 9:18 a.m.
MTJohn said...

alprova said..."No one is going to stop any of you Evangelical or militant Christians from seizing opportunity to blame Liberals for Sandy Hook "due to taking God out of public schools", ..."

Here is an alternative way to think about it:

http://matthewpaulturner.net/f1/4-questions-every-evangelical-church-should-be-asking-in-light-of-the-shooting-in-newtown/

December 18, 2012 at 9:21 a.m.
alprova said...

At least some of us have emotions to act upon.

If no one had never invented firearms, how many people would have lived their lives to die a natural death?

And I again state, that anyone who dares insert the issue of abortion into what happened in Newtown, Connecticut is indeed a complete moron.

December 18, 2012 at 9:29 a.m.
alprova said...

Great article MTJohn...

December 18, 2012 at 9:34 a.m.
ibshame said...

I've watched literally hours of coverage of this event since Friday up to and including coverage even on Faux News. One can only hope after all that has been said and done, this time it will be different. Maybe the country will realize it has been a festering disease for a very long, long time. It has been stated that in our country over 32 people die everyday from needless gun violence. In our own city, we have had numerous shootings and killings over the last year. At one point it was almost a daily occurence to read about a shooting or a killing somewhere in our city or surrounding area. Although we are fortunate(at least so far) not to have had to deal with the magnitude of tragedy as in places like Columbine, VA Tech, Aurora and now Newtown we are still losing our citizens and exposing our children in urban areas to gun violence almost on a daily basis.

Adam Lanza was supposedly from an affluent family. He has been characterized as a loner, not able to relate to people very well and often isolated from the real world. It seems he fits the pattern of recent deranged killers. Last Friday, he killed his mother, left his home then proceeded to kill 26 innocent people most of whom were children. All we can ask is why? Some will say he was mentally ill, some will say he was evil, some will say he was both. Yet no one will ever really know why and the one person(Lanza, himself) who can provide that answer is now dead. So we are left(once again like so many other times) to our own anger, sadness, and continued search to explain why would someone want to take the lives of innocent children and adults.

The violence has to stop. Everyone has the right to protect themselves. Police have the right to use deadly force when their lives or the lives of the people they have to protect are put in danger. With that being said, if our government can regulate the sale of over the counter drugs like Sudephrin and others than surely there can be some kind of regulation about the kind of guns that are needed to provide protection. Is an M-16 or a BushMaster,(or any other kind of weapon used in military combat) necessary for an individual to have in order to protect a home? Are clips that hold more than 10 bullets necessary to provide protection? How can criminals (like Jesse Matthews in our own backyard) go to gun shows and purchase weapons with which to kill and not have some kind of background check?

It's time for members of Congress to stop cowtowing to the NRA. Is protecting the lives of innocent children or adults less important than receiving an "A" rating from the NRA? How is a person who has been put on a no-fly list(for suspected terrorist activity) allowed to LEGALLY PURCHASE A GUN? There are loopholes in the current gun laws that need to be closed, there are current regulations that need to be enforced and there are new regulations that need to be enacted. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.

December 18, 2012 at 9:56 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo says "If no one had never"... We need to state what really happened here, learn from it, and get into the real world. Nancy Lanza had an unstable person living in the house with her and was obviously negligent in not securing these weapons. I have purchased two semi automatics recently and both came with locks. In addition, if you have a preteen or teenage child, walk into their room and take a look at their video games and the world in which they live. They may object but be a parent for once and stop trying to be their friend.

December 18, 2012 at 10:34 a.m.
MTJohn said...

ibshame - I agree that the violence has to stop.

I agree that we need more and more effective regulation of gun ownership and use. And, I think the argument that regulation is equivalent to a violation of the second amendment is bogus. That said, while gun regulation might buffer the problem, it won't fix it because it only treats one symptom.

I also think we need significant improvements in mental health care. That fix is more important than gun control. But, that also treats symptoms.

The fundamental problem is that our society is diseased! There is a reason why incidents like Newtown are so much more prevalent in the United States than in other developed countries. And, by the way, it is not because we took prayer out of our public schools. Compared with the United States, most European countries would be classified as a-religious. We are diseased. But, I don't think we want to know the diagnosis of that disease. And, for sure, we do not want the cure.

You said something in your post that I think comes close to helping better understand the disease - "Adam Lanza as supposedly from an affluent family".

We often talk about the "greatest generation". These were folks who survived the depression, prevailed in WWII and contributed to the significant economic expansion and the development associated with that expansion. The greatest generation was committed to making things better for the generation that followed. We boomers benefited from their commitment. But, rather than following their example and investing in future generations, we invested in ourselves and we taught the next generation to do likewise. Well, we got the prosperity and, with it, we also got a whole bunch of empty promises.

December 18, 2012 at 10:45 a.m.
davisss13 said...

Bottom line, other legislation which the country sorely needs will be shoved aside for these knee-jerk reaction law proposals and the fight over them. Every time the dems propose gun control gun sales go up and moderate people like myself run like hell from the party. Some people who vote dem, like me, are not from major metropolitan areas and do not share the same views gun control. And NO, abortion should never be in the same conversation.

I myself have voted straight democrat since 9/11 but will NOT vote for a gun control candidate. You have to understand, people justifiably do not trust gun control advocates because they know full well if 'assault rifles' get banned then that victory would encourage them to go farther. Semi-automatic rifles of all kinds and handguns are next.

We all know these people will NEVER stop trying to take guns away from law abiding US citizens.

I have been getting attacked from both sides on this one. Vote against the torturers and oligarchs in the GOP or vote against gun control advocate morons in the Democratic party. Close call.

That's unfortunate because I despise the GOP and their teabagging filth.

December 18, 2012 at 10:49 a.m.
Rebus said...

Perhaps congress is "kowtowing" to the constitution. There is certainly room for compromise on this issue, but painting the NRA as the bad guys isn't a good way to open the debate.

December 18, 2012 at 10:54 a.m.
davisss13 said...

I want to remind my liberal friends that the legislation pushed through congress immediately after 9/11 legitimately caused them to question it. The overbearing, intrusive, UNCONSTITUTIONAL overreach was a result of passing laws while everyone was emotionally devastated.

Passing legislation in the heat of the moment is never a good idea, whether you are liberal or conservative.

December 18, 2012 at 11:08 a.m.
jesse said...

Just in case anybody here doesn't remember, Oswald killed Kennedy w/ a Italian carcano carbine ,bolt action that in that day could be bought by mail for $15.00 w/o the scope!(He supposedly got off 3 rounds in 5 seconds,which i think is B/S!!) That is the first time i recall all the hysteria over "gun control"! 6 mo. later it was all over and very little had changed!

December 18, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
GrouchyJohn said...

People say take away the guns with magazine or clips with a capacity that allow large number of shots fired. Ok, fine.... limit them. How are you going to limit the NUMBER of these mags/clips owned? I can empty my 10 round pistol in 10 seconds, change mags in 3-5 seconds and empty it again in 10 more. 20 rounds out of a high caliber handgun in 25 seconds.

It does absolutely NO good to limit these hi-cap mags/clips, just as it would do no good to ban sales of so-called assault weapons. There are just to many of them already in the country to ban the sales.

The so called wild-wild west WASN'T as wild as assumed from watching episodes of Gunsmoke or Bat Masterson....HISTORICAL records show Dodge City in its entire history during the 1800s had fewer murders/shootings than the City of Chattanooga has had in the last 2 years. Why was it more peaceful? Because if you shot someone, you stood a good chance of getting shot for your troubles or the law would simply grab you up, throw you in front of a hanging judge and you'd be executed that afternoon. You might go to prison, but for shooting up a place like an elementary school you'd swing from a rope before dark.

My point? Make it so gawd awful painful to use a gun in a crime that people will think twice or even three or 4 times before they do it. Make it such that good, God fearing, law abiding people that have permits can carry almost anywhere they wish. Don't restrict my right to protect myself OR my ability to protect YOU if some nutcase starts shooting in the middle of... well.... ANYWHERE. Yes, I carry. Constantly. I carry anywhere I can do so legally. I would stand - not necessarily gladly stand, but stand, between any of you and a nutcase gunman. I'd likely think twice before getting between a nutcase and that fool Clay Bennett, but in the end, yeah, I'd do that, too. Then I'd likely learn that ol'Clay carries himself, like so many liberal mouthpieces really do.

December 18, 2012 at 11:48 a.m.
jesse said...

"an armed society is a polite society"

Old Chinese proverb!

December 18, 2012 at 11:53 a.m.
miraweb said...

Capitalism Grows a Pair

Cerberus is divesting itself of Bushmaster and Remington. This came at the same time that the California teachers' retirement fund, among others, began reviewing its $750 million stake in Cerberus.

Dick's Sporting Goods has pulled semi-automatics from its shelves. Walmart has dropped Bushmaster from its online catalog but is continuing sales of other semi-automatic lines.

A pawn shop in Seminole, Florida has completely shut down its guns business. As it happens, the owner's youngest daughter is six years old.

Our national idiot, Rush Limbaugh, is saying there is no such thing as an "assault rifle". Apparently, 20 children and six adults are being buried because of a "political invention."

Waiting to see how many corporate sponsors drop Limbaugh.

December 18, 2012 at 12:21 p.m.
Rebus said...

"if one does not plow, there can be no harvest. -old chinese proverb

December 18, 2012 at 12:22 p.m.
davisss13 said...

"Our national idiot, Rush Limbaugh, is saying there is no such thing as an "assault rifle". Apparently, 20 children and six adults are being buried because of a "political invention."

Limbaugh is an idiot beyond belief.

Some rifles are only cosmetically different. They are not considered 'assault rifles'.

December 18, 2012 at 12:29 p.m.
EaTn said...

jesse said... "an armed society is a polite society"

Ya think Adam Lanza may have knocked on the door....before he proceeded to blow it out with a couple 0.223 rounds? My observation is that those packing are the rude ones who won't step aside as you try to maneuver your cart through the aisles at the local mart.

December 18, 2012 at 12:29 p.m.
miraweb said...

11 Year Old Utah Boy to be Charged

The young man showed up at school with a handgun and ammo and was turned in by other students after holding the gun to the head of another child on the playground.

One news story is reporting his parents sent him to school with the gun, though that has not been confirmed.

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=23430406&nid=148

December 18, 2012 at 12:31 p.m.
Livn4life said...

Another Draw Boy "not the point cartoon!" Get rid of legally held guns and see that atrocities will still exist. People's hearts are where the real problems are which cause such insanity.

December 18, 2012 at 12:32 p.m.
MTJohn said...

GrouchyJohn said..."My point? Make it so gawd awful painful to use a gun in a crime that people will think twice or even three or 4 times before they do it."

Please explain how the threat of punishment will be a deterrent to anyone who intends to take his own life as the final act in the violent episode.

December 18, 2012 at 12:35 p.m.
MTJohn said...

miraweb said..."Our national idiot, Rush Limbaugh, is saying there is no such thing as an "assault rifle"."

Every weapon is an assault weapon. If it weren't for the military applications, most of the things we refer to as sporting arms and ammunition wouldn't have been developed in the first place.

December 18, 2012 at 12:40 p.m.
jesse said...

The idea was eatn ,if yhey KNEW you were packin also THEN they would give you room!

IF Lanza KNEW there were 50 armed teachers in that school and they would shoot his ass off as soon as he drug out his gun,would he even have tried! BTW: I don't have a dog in this hunt!I sold out of the gun and huntin buis 30 years ago! Do my huntin now w/a camera!

December 18, 2012 at 12:42 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Off topic question:

For those of you who are able to include bold/italic changes in font etc. in your posts, what are you using for codes?

There are no hot buttons in the posting window that appears on my screen and I have not been able to make either BBCode or HTML tags work.

December 18, 2012 at 12:44 p.m.
Ronald_Ragin said...

SAT anology: "I repeat...No one is proposing to take away all gun ownership rights..."

is to

"I repeat...No one is proposing to take away all birth control rights..."

As

"But no private citizen needs access to any gun capable of dispensing multiple rounds of high caliber ammunition in seconds for personal protection or for hunting."

Is to

"But no private citizen needs access to any medical procedure that is capable of dispensing multiple rounds of chemicals in seconds or mechanical removal for personal protection or for unwanted pregnancy."

The arguments are relevant, and to dismiss others opionions as not, shows lack of awareness of the audience you are surrounded by.

December 18, 2012 at 12:49 p.m.
MTJohn said...

jesse said..."The idea was eatn ,if yhey KNEW you were packin also THEN they would give you room!"

I think this "logic" connects more to the fantasies of those who pack heat than to any empirical information.

If school shooter perps knew that teachers were packin', they'd plan accordingly. The event might play out a bit differently, but innocent lives would still be lost and the perp would die, either at his own hand or with a variation on the "suicide by cop" strategy.

December 18, 2012 at 12:50 p.m.
EaTn said...

jesse...thanks for the clarification. Either way, I think our society in general has lost politeness and manners. Maybe it's just that the south ain't what it used to be.

December 18, 2012 at 12:54 p.m.
jesse said...

You're right John BUT maybe 6 or 8 instead of 27!

Don't get me wrong,i'm not an advocate for either side , i just think the solution is a lot more complex than gun laws!

December 18, 2012 at 12:55 p.m.
miraweb said...

I see Jesse just in got his new copy of "50 Shades of Stupid."

I worry about people who think that really solving the problems of severe mental illness and violence can be done like a John Wayne flick.

You are just not a goin' to out-tough crazy, cowboy.

December 18, 2012 at 12:57 p.m.
miraweb said...

MTJohn - the asterisk is your friend. One for italics, two for bold, three for italics plus bold. A line of italics creates a hard rule. You have to place the asterisks both at the front and back of a line of text (no spaces).

December 18, 2012 at 12:59 p.m.
MTJohn said...

If it doesn't get to "zero", it is not much of a solution.

I do agree that both the problem and the solution are more complex than amended gun laws. Although I agree that our country needs more gun regulation, I don't think it is the most important piece of the problem/solution to incidents like Sandy Hook.

I also agree with the person who suggested their is great potential for doing something foolish while deliberating complex issues in the height of emotion. Unfortunately, gun regulation has been one of those issues for which lobbyists have generated considerable emotion at times when a more deliberative approach might have worked.

December 18, 2012 at 1:02 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Thank you, Miraweb.

Too easy, but not all that intuitive for those of us who take pride in our cyber-cstupidity.

December 18, 2012 at 1:04 p.m.
miraweb said...

You're Welcome!

December 18, 2012 at 1:05 p.m.
jesse said...

Well i guess the "Polite discussion" is over,miraweb123 done went and told me how stupid i am!

I guess the old adage"if you can't dazzle them w/brilliance baffle them w/B/S. " still holds true!

December 18, 2012 at 1:05 p.m.
miraweb said...

Never said you were stupid, Jesse.

Arming everyone inside of a school - that I believe is not a bright move. If you've ever seen a teacher about the second week of April you would know that many of these folks really should not have weaponry at hand.

There are other chapters in that book I would have trouble with.

Chapter 23:

Arm 200 people then place them 50,000 feet in the air in a pressurized aluminum tube. Add alcohol and cell phones. Good times!

Chapter 31:

Arm everyone driving in traffic. Bet you'll think twice before not using that blinker!

Chapter 38:

Arm everyone in the express lane at the grocery. Got more than 10 items? Make my day.

December 18, 2012 at 1:13 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Yeehaw! Don't look now, folks, but we have a real, live Rambo and Wyatt Earp all rolled into one, right here amongst us: GrouchyJohn. If he don't git the bad guys with his six-shooter, he'll riddle 'em full o' holes with his automatic weapon. GrouchyJohn packs heat and bad boys dare not tread where this pistol-packin' cowboy goes.

Yeah, what we need is a return to them calmer, more peaceful times, back in those good ol' frontier days, when a lynchin' or a shoot-out in the streets was all it took to put the fear in them bad guys. Back in the days when there was no such thing as "gun-free zones" and people lived happier and more secure, with their pistols at their sides. Yeah, them were the days alright. Hell, our problem today is not nearly 'nough guns. Ban automatic weapons?? Are you kiddin'?? Make more of 'em and git 'em in the hands of everbody. If everbody had an assault rifle we wouldn't have no assaults. If ever' kid at that school had a gun, well, that bad boy Lanza could a' been blowed away in a heartbeat.

I proclaim we oughta have a gun-free day, and by that I mean a day when guns are literally free for the askin', and then when we all pack heat, them bad guys won't stand a chance. Yeehaw! Guns galore! Like Reagan said, "gun control is not the answer to our problems, gun control IS the problem." Oh wait, I think he said that about government, didn't he? Oh well...government, gun control...same differnce. Guns, guns, and more guns! Love yer gun and yer gun will love you! God bless Amurika and God bless our guns!

December 18, 2012 at 1:13 p.m.
jesse said...

John, if 20 fewer people had died at sandy hook i think that would have been a blessing!No matter what method was used to reduce the body count!

December 18, 2012 at 1:14 p.m.
miraweb said...

Sorry - that should have been "a line of asterisks creates a hard rule".

December 18, 2012 at 1:22 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Jesse - Although I think really you meant to say something like "less tragic" rather than "blessing", I agree with you. But, school shootings are school shootings, regardless of the number of children who are killed.

December 18, 2012 at 1:41 p.m.
rolando said...

It isn't just the South, EaTn. It is the entire US that has lost politeness and manners. Probably because the parents [or parent!] failed to properly teach them. Probably because they don't care about any of that junk themselves. It takes away from their "Gimme" attitude.

Kids act as they see their parent[s] act and think as the parent thinks. The shooter possibly felt he should defend himself and his family now by eliminating those who might grow up to hurt them. He WAS a nutcase, after all.

December 18, 2012 at 1:49 p.m.
Rebus said...

Not saying that nothing should be done, but a miscreant with a pump or automatic shotgun could do just as much damage in the school setting. The assault weapon ban is not the total answer. I'm for any good idea, but it should not be a knee-jerk law.

December 18, 2012 at 1:56 p.m.
jesse said...

Hey Rolando?

How much civility,politeness and manners do you see on this here little ole forum between folks of differing viewpoints?AND i assume we are all adults on here!(might be wrong about that!)

There have been a few exchanges on here that ,if the participants had been armed and face to face someone might have been shot!

December 18, 2012 at 1:58 p.m.
una61 said...

A stupid, asinine cartoon. I don't think any man would rather hug his gun than his child.

December 18, 2012 at 1:59 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Una, then tell that to the ones who get their panties all in a wad over the very mention of gun control, like they think Obama is going to come after their weapons. Nobody is talking about confiscating guns or doing away with the second amendment, just some reasonable regulations regarding these assault weapons that have no business in a civilized society. If these gun fetishists love their kids more than their guns, then let them act like it instead of clinging like two-year olds to a lollipop that they think big bad Obama is going to try to take away from them.

December 18, 2012 at 2:11 p.m.
jesse said...

una, i think you are miss reading the analogy here!

They are both protecting the thing they most value!

December 18, 2012 at 2:13 p.m.
ibshame said...

"MTJohn said... I also think we need significant improvements in mental health care. That fix is more important than gun control. But, that also treats symptoms. The fundamental problem is that our society is diseased!..... We are diseased. But, I don't think we want to know the diagnosis of that disease. And, for sure, we do not want the cure."

There is not one thing you have written that I don't agree with. In fact you are spot on. I have two family members who have mental health issues. One was a member of the military and the other was not. The one who was a member of the military is fortunate to have the VA. They have supplied him with counseling, medication and any other service he might require to live a somewhat "normal, stabilized life."

The other was never a member of the military and had no financial means to get all of the help he needed. As a result he has to depend on whatever help he can get from the state. More often than not that help has come in the form of the police picking him up and dropping him off at the state facility for the mentally ill. He stays for a very short period of time until they can get him back on his meds then he is released back out into society until his next lapse. His family cannot afford the kind of help the other family member receives from the VA. So, they do the best they can with what they have.

You are right, we are diseased and have been for a very long time but I think people are now willing to at least consider the cures that are out there. It will be tough medicine to take but it can be done.

December 18, 2012 at 2:27 p.m.
Ronald_Ragin said...

The cartoon could very easily be turned around to show a woman lovingly embracing her child or any child, and the opposite a woman embracing her abortion clinic doctor. "both protecting the thing they value most"

December 18, 2012 at 2:40 p.m.
MTJohn said...

ibshame - first let me say prayers and best wishes for you, your family and, especially the two family members.

I am gratified to hear that "the one" is receiving appropriate care from the VA. I wish that his/her story were true for all of our veterans. In my state, the VA, although improving, is not yet up to the standard that your described. And, the veterans of my generation are still over-represented among our nation's homeless and those who receive little or no mental health care, unless they get it in prison.

Your other family member is the face of mental health care in this country. It is a travesty!

December 18, 2012 at 2:41 p.m.
hambone said...

As a friend said" if you have to go to the shooting range with a AK47 and spray bullets at human shaped targets, then your the one who's mentally ill" !

December 18, 2012 at 2:54 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

The very ones who are whining about how we have more of a mental health problem than a gun problem are the same ones who scream about abortions but also complain about the government being proactive in trying to increase ease of access and affordability of birth control, which in turn would reduce the number of abortions. Go figure. We have so many mentally ill people out and about because we have no place to put them or treat them. Most people cannot afford private mental health clinics and there are not enough state or federally funded mental health clinics for the average working person or poor person to turn to for help. If you want to do something about mental health issues, then we will have to spend money to create more facilities and pay more trained professionals. But then, you don't want the government to do that, so where does that leave us? You need to start ragging those "job creators" to use the money they've gained from the tax cuts of the past 10 years and get them to start building some more mental health hospitals, I guess, huh? But then, being private and all, they would still be prohibitively expensive for the average person, so we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You government haters and gun lovers can't have it both ways: either give the poor, mentally ill some place to go and get treatment or shut up about it and just accept the fact that we have no place to put them and in the meantime let's just maintain the status quo about our gun laws, until more kids are killed the next time....and the next....and the next...and the next...

December 18, 2012 at 2:58 p.m.
ibshame said...

"MTJohn said... This might spark a little conversation"

Wing Nuts hate Moore as much as they do President Obama.

December 18, 2012 at 3:22 p.m.
jesse said...

I don't think simple minded platitudes will help solve the prob.

Moore is just as big a mental case Jan Brewer!

December 18, 2012 at 3:33 p.m.
miraweb said...

The problems we know. The solutions we know.

Getting from A to B is really a matter of resources - which we have.

We are a very wealthy nation.

The problems

1) Identifying and supporting the mentally ill to prevent violence.

This mother was frightened of her son for many years. His behavior was disturbing enough that he and the school system parted company in the 10th grade.

Who should have known that?

Should kids with identified behavior problems and, perhaps, high-school drop outs be put on a no-fireams list for, say, 10 years?

Many family members are reluctant to report threats, abuse, or other types of bad behavior from impaired individuals. When they do - the police are really not equipped to manage long-term chronic illnesses. How do we do this better?

2) Paying for good care for people most likely to be outside the work-provided health care system.

If someone is in dire poverty, there are very limited services available. The problems are often too few beds and many facilities that find people magically "cured" the instant their insurance runs out.

Medicaid and Medicare have tight limits on inpatient treatment. Facilities show people the door who are barely functioning and who then return multiple times - often through emergency rooms.

For working and middle income people without solid job-based insurance there is no help.

For upper income people the costs are very high and the problem with too few beds is still true.

This may be the one area of health care where single-payer makes perfect sense for all income brackets.

3) Supporting the families who are caring for impaired individuals.

In addition to the financial burdens, there are emotional and social burdens for those caring for family members with severe mental illness. We have almost no support for care-givers. It can be a very lonely and difficult job taking care of an ill family member.

4) Preventing violence by keeping weapons out of the hands of those who would harm others.

I won't belabor this one. We all know the solution. Guns, especially semi-automatic and automatic weapons, must be harder for impaired individuals to get their hands on. A lot of folks, especially gun dealers, just do not like that answer.

December 18, 2012 at 3:40 p.m.
MTJohn said...

Jesse - I agree that simple platitudes won't help solve the problem.

I shared the quote because the irony seemed like an appropriate response to the suggestion that arming teachers would have prevented the problem.

December 18, 2012 at 3:40 p.m.
miraweb said...

Tired of platitudes? Sign my petition:

http://wh.gov/n268

December 18, 2012 at 4:36 p.m.
patriot1 said...

mira...I know a few gun dealers and I don't know any that wants to put any weapon in the hands of an impaired person. Since you say there are lots of them, perhaps you could name just one.

Ms. Lanza and her adult son are solely responsible for what happened here, not some gun dealer or private citizen who owns a gun. Gun owners everywhere will be punished for this act, even though they along with everyone else grieves with the families. She certainly had the financial means (like a lot of women thanks to her husband's income) to seek help for her adult son.

December 18, 2012 at 4:46 p.m.
Easy123 said...

patriot1,

"Since you say there are lots of them, perhaps you could name just one."

Miraweb didn't say this or imply it. Try reading with comprehension next time.

"Gun owners everywhere will be punished for this act,"

False.

"even though they along with everyone else grieves with the families."

Irrelevant.

"She certainly had the financial means (like a lot of women thanks to her husband's income)"

You just discredited your entire post with this statement.

December 18, 2012 at 4:51 p.m.
miraweb said...

patriot - I agree that responsible gun dealers and owners do not want impaired people to have weapons. I stated that poorly.

My point is aimed at the people who will object to the measures that are necessary to get there because either they will make a little less money selling or there will be a little more hassle buying.

I grew up in a hunting family. In my family there would have been hell to pay if any of us had taken a gun to school and pointed it at another child. The police would have been the least of our worries.

We weren't even allowed to point toy guns at another human being.

December 18, 2012 at 4:57 p.m.
rolando said...

Ironically, Bennett has drawn a fairly reasonable cartoon here. Methinks it is more correct than he realizes. It is even historically correct.

You Anti-Gunners here have simply got it completely wrong.

It shows a woman comforting and protecting a child [her's presumably, although not necessarily]. That is the historically correct things a woman does; it goes back to perpetuating the race; she is the life-giver; the action is automatic and unthinking.

It also shows the man fearing the loss of his best means of protecting his family from those in today's criminal society who would harm it. [Face it -- cops can only respond after a crime has been committed...and that takes time.] That man [presumably the father] is their last resort for safety. That is his job and sole reason for being on this earth...it holds true for all real men [possibly excepting the girly kind].

You can bet your last pfennig anyone, regardless of age, who shoots my door open will die after stepping through the gap.

December 18, 2012 at 5:52 p.m.
rolando said...

"They are both protecting the thing they most value!"

jessee, I cry BullShavings

December 18, 2012 at 6:02 p.m.
patriot1 said...

mira...I too grew up in a rural, hunting family although I personally have not hunted in years. I can remember guys bringing gu ns to school and tinkering with them in the ag shop and no one thought the first thing about it or to meet up after school for a little squirrel hunting. There was no such thing as an SRO officer. Yeah, I know we live in a different time, but what has changed? Guns were lethal then too, so it must be a little more than just the guns. Don't know the answer, wish I did, but to punish gun owners when the overwhelming majority are responsible law abiding citizens is just absurd.

December 18, 2012 at 6:02 p.m.
jesse said...

Your right roho,He's got their six!ready to take care of buis!!(alert too,look at them eyes!!)

Altho he is in a somewhat awkward position to respond if it hits the fan!!

December 18, 2012 at 6:05 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Rolando,

"You Anti-Gunners here have simply got it completely wrong."

There are no anti-gun people here and you couldn't prove otherwise.

"It also shows the man fearing the loss of his best means of protecting his family from those in today's criminal society who would harm it."

You've got it wrong. He's clutching an assault rifle. Also, no one is advocating a gun ban.

"That is his job and sole reason for being on this earth"

His duty: yes. His sole reason for being on this earth: not by a long shot.

"it holds true for all real men [possibly excepting the girly kind]."

Not quite. But keep thinking that.

"You can bet your last pfennig anyone, regardless of age, who shoots my door open will die after stepping through the gap."

Whatever you say, Rambo.

December 18, 2012 at 6:16 p.m.
Easy123 said...

patriot1,

"to punish gun owners when the overwhelming majority are responsible law abiding citizens is just absurd."

Please explain how gun owners would be punished. I dare you.

December 18, 2012 at 6:17 p.m.
jesse said...

Easy.do you EVER make a statement other than to attack and belittle someones views on here?

Why not just post your own position on an issue instead of telling everybody else how stupid,moronic,wrong and bentheaded they are!

December 18, 2012 at 6:26 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Good grief. . . Leave it to the wannabe rambos in Tennessee to lead the way for more violence . . . I wonder who will be paying for the large upcoming increase in the State’s liability insurance?

“Tennessee has emerged this week as a center of the “the answer is more guns in schools” sentiment following the Newtown, Conn. elementary school shooting.

A member of the Republican-controlled legislature plans during its upcoming session to introduce a bill that would allow the state to pay for secretly armed teachers in classrooms so, the sponsor told TPM, potential shooters don’t know who has a gun and who doesn’t.

Tennessee Gov. Bill Haslam (R) has said the idea will be part of his discussions about how to prevent a shooting like the one in Newtown from happening in the Volunteer State."

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/12/tennessee-armed-teachers.php?ref=fpa

December 18, 2012 at 6:35 p.m.
rolando said...

"Should kids with identified behavior problems and, perhaps, high-school drop outs be put on a no-fireams list for, say, 10 years?"

On what basis would you prevent a drop-out from owning a gun, miraweb? Or one with "Behavior Problems"?? By whose definition? We are still a nation of laws.

You bandy about the word "impaired" a lot. Again, by whose definition? Shrinks can't do it because many times it is not described as a mental illness in the DSM [the shrink's Bible, if they have one].

Automatic weapons are very tightly controlled by the federal government already.

December 18, 2012 at 6:37 p.m.
rolando said...

"...no anti-gun people here..."

Yeah, right, easy. 'Course there aren't. Sure. LMAO wink-wink nudge-nudge

December 18, 2012 at 6:40 p.m.
rolando said...

jesse -- that's all easy knows. He cannot discuss anything.

December 18, 2012 at 6:41 p.m.
Easy123 said...

jesse,

"do you EVER make a statement other than to attack and belittle someones views on here?"

I actually just got done NOT attacking or belittling others views on here with my last two posts.

"Why not just post your own position on an issue instead of telling everybody else how stupid,moronic,wrong and bentheaded they are!"

I have. If you say something stupid, I will call stupid. If you say something moronic, I will call moronic. If you say something wrong, I will call it wrong. Is bentheaded even a word?

Not all opinions are true. You can have a wrong opinion. Are you not aware of this? All positions and opinions are open to criticism. If you can't accept that fact, then maybe you should do some introspection about why you're posting here. I don't see you making these sort of comments to others that have disagreements.

If you have a problem with me or what I post, we can hash it out. However, let me assure you, I will not stop being honest. I will not stop labeling statements and posters what they are or make themselves to be through their own words.

December 18, 2012 at 6:45 p.m.
miraweb said...

patriot - I guess I see a distinction between "inconvenienced" and "punished."

When I go to the airport and have to spend 20 minutes doing the security tango (shoes off! shoes on!) I regret that the world is such that we have to take far more care than when I was young and we went out on the tarmac to meet planes (yes, true!).

But I don't think I am personally being "punished" because the world is more dangerous now than it was then. I can still fly in relative safety even though we know we have some violent idiots targeting planes. A little more time and checking my socks ahead of time for holes is not a "punishment."

rolando - My petition proposal is for a change in the law. Anyone who thinks they are being treated unfairly could take it to a court.


Raise the legal age of gun ownership to 29 for anyone who drops-out of high school or who assaults a school official.

Schools are often aware of individuals with moderate to severe impairments. Some mental illnesses only express themselves in early adulthood. A delay in the age of licensing to own weapons is appropriate for these individuals and in the case of those who withdraw from school before graduating.


https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/raise-legal-age-gun-ownership-29-anyone-who-drops-out-high-school-or-who-assaults-school-official/

December 18, 2012 at 6:48 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Rolando,

"Yeah, right, easy. 'Course there aren't. Sure. LMAO wink-wink nudge-nudge"

Yes, right, Rolando. There isn't anyone that has posted on this thread that has advocated a gun ban. Prove me wrong. I dare you.

WINK WINK

"that's all easy knows. He cannot discuss anything."

This coming from the same person that has dismissed my previous posts because of my style of posting. No really...LMFAO!

If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. You must be one of this, how did you put it?... "girly kind".

December 18, 2012 at 6:48 p.m.
rolando said...

Someone here posted that since the 1950s, all public shootings of 3 or more people -- with one exception -- happened in gun-free zones. Let me say that again. All with one exception happened in gun free zones. That exception was the Gifford shooting.

His conclusion was we should outlaw gun-free zones to eliminate the vast majority of public, mass-murder, shootings.

His cite was there...look it up.

December 18, 2012 at 6:50 p.m.
rolando said...

Geez, easy, maybe you should start breaking up posts one word at a time, huh?

December 18, 2012 at 6:51 p.m.
jesse said...

Well easy just admitted opinions can be wrong, EXCEPT his opinions on other folks opinions!

That's rather convoluted but sums it up right proper!

December 18, 2012 at 6:55 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Rolando,

"Geez, easy, maybe you should start breaking up posts one word at a time, huh?"

Writing a whole paragraph would be disjointed because I would be addressing different parts of your posts. You wouldn't understand.

Still whining, eh? LMFAO!

December 18, 2012 at 6:56 p.m.
rolando said...

Most appropriate T-Shirt:

"Dear God

Why do you allow so much violence in our schools?

Signed, Concerned Student"

Dear Concerned Student

I'm not allowed in schools.

Signed, God"

December 18, 2012 at 6:56 p.m.
GameOn said...

Maybe, we need to reevaluate the mental health system. A good article no matter what side of the issue you are on.

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html?m=0

December 18, 2012 at 6:58 p.m.
rolando said...

Most everything you write in that format is disjointed in any case, easy. Come to think of it, in any format.

You whine so much you [falsely] see it in others.

December 18, 2012 at 6:58 p.m.
miraweb said...

And yet, Rolando, I have never see an evil act that did not require human hands.

December 18, 2012 at 6:59 p.m.
Easy123 said...

jesse,

"Well easy just admitted opinions can be wrong, EXCEPT his opinions on other folks opinions!"

No, I didn't. I said all opinions are not valid. If you have a problem with mine, I am open to criticism. I have said that from the beginning. Apparently, you aren't though. That is why you never address me directly. You talk as if you're speaking to everyone else. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY OPINION, I AM OPEN TO YOUR CRITICISM, JESSE. Is that clear enough or would you like to keep adding to your strawman?

"That's rather convoluted but sums it up right proper!"

Do you know what 'convoluted' means? I don't think so for some reason.

December 18, 2012 at 7 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Rolando,

"Most everything you write in that format is disjointed in any case, easy."

How so? By giving you the exact sentence or paragraph I'm addressing? LMFAO!

"Come to think of it, in any format."

Other people seem to understand just fine. What's you're malfunction? You always use my posting style as a way to weasel out of the discussion.

"You whine so much you [falsely] see it in others."

No, really, you are whining about my posting format. Are you unfamiliar with the definition of the word "whine"? I haven't met that definition and you are currently doing it. So I'll rebut with, YOU whine so much, you project it onto others.

Keep not whining about my posting style. LMFAO!

December 18, 2012 at 7:05 p.m.
Easy123 said...

JonRoss,

WRONG AGAIN.

Republican lawmakers opened the door on Tuesday to a national debate about gun control following the Connecticut school massacre, a small sign of easing in Washington's reluctance to seriously consider new federal weapons restrictions.

"But yes, I think most Republicans are willing to have a very, very serious conversation about what this means and taking a second look at what the Second Amendment (guaranteeing the right to bear arms) means in the 21st century," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/18/us-usa-shooting-connecticut-congress-idUSBRE8BH1B120121218


Some Republicans now say they're willing to discuss the politically treacherous issue of gun control along with mental health issues and violent video games, while formerly pro-gun Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says it's time to place gun control on the table in the wake of the Connecticut mass killings.

http://news.yahoo.com/republicans-gun-control-debated-165114266--politics.html

December 18, 2012 at 7:07 p.m.
jesse said...

I have been addressing you directly for about an hour now i think!

Your comment on my understanding of "convoluted" is exactly what i was talking about but i doubt you have any idea what i'm talking about ,so see ya later,time to go!

December 18, 2012 at 7:07 p.m.
Easy123 said...

jesse,

"I have been addressing you directly for about an hour now i think!"

Really? Then why can't you talk in the first person or second person?

"Well easy just admitted opinions can be wrong, EXCEPT his opinions on other folks opinions!"

That isn't addressing me directly.

"Your comment on my understanding of "convoluted" is exactly what i was talking about but i doubt you have any idea what i'm talking about"

How was any of what I said complex or difficult? Oh wait, it wasn't. That's why I question if you know what that word means.

"so see ya later,time to go!"

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, coward.

December 18, 2012 at 7:12 p.m.
Easy123 said...

JonRoss,

"Wrong again" says easy after responding to my comments with an unrelated comment."

It was directly related. The Republicans are going after guns too. Explain that one using your idiot logic.

"Next to alprova, easy is easily the most irrational person here."

Seriously, you're dumber than a bag of hammers. I won't even go into the irrational part of your psyche. It's a compliment to be called irrational by one of the top 5 most ignorant posters on this site.

December 18, 2012 at 7:14 p.m.
Reardon said...

Guess what y'all.

The All-Powerful State cannot prevent all lawlessness or tragedy, regardless of the amount of manpower and financial investment.

Witness the War on Drugs, the War on Poverty, and the Newtown Mass Murder.

The school had the capability for lock down. What's next -- bullet-proof windows, law enforcement constantly on the premise?

The point I'm NOT making is to NOT try. The point is what's the limit a People will go, beyond which is a sacrifice to our rights or property (and still will not solve the problem, because Utopia will never exist)?

Take for example the Federal Income Tax. If I remember correctly, it was for the top 1% of income earners when initially legislated in 1913. The tax rate? 1.5%! Look where we are in that regard -- the State has an insatiable appetite for your stuff. There is NO limit.

The fact is all weapons are assault weapons. This is the illusive obvious. Ban AR-15s? Lanza in his demented rage would have packed and used multiple handguns. Ban handguns? He would have stormed the school strapping several shotguns. Restrict gun ownership to just one firearm? Lanza would have just created a makeshift bomb or two following the Columbine killers' lead.

If you Statists are ideologically consistent, it's either all or none.

PS: Back off Easy now -- he's well-read, intelligent, and a worthy debater.

December 18, 2012 at 7:18 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Reardon,

Nothing could have prevented the Sandy Hook murders. However, is it not worth, at least, considering reintroducing the assault weapons ban or something along those lines?

I own a gun. I am a believer in the 2nd amendment. But to what extent does that amendment go? Does the average citizen really need an AR-15 to protect themselves? A 30 bullet clip?

I think it would be productive to at least consider the positives that could come with implementing an assault weapons ban. But I also think mental health, school security, and many other factors should be included in that conversation.

We have to change something. We owe it to our children, families, and friends.

December 18, 2012 at 7:32 p.m.
conservative said...

"NEW YORK, Dec 17 (Reuters) - The California State Teachers' Retirement System (CalSTRS) said on Monday it was reviewing its investments with Cerberus Capital Management LP, the private equity firm that controls Bushmaster Firearms International, in light of last week's the school shooting in Connecticut."

"With $155 billion in assets under management, CalSTRS is the largest teachers' fund and the second largest pension fund in the United States, making it an influential voice in the investment community that may influence other investor funds in reaction to the shooting."

The hypocrisy of Liberals is often stunning. Here radical leftist Socialists who abhor the Second Amendment invest in gun stocks! Yes, gun stocks!

Now, since these same loony people believe guns kill people then logic would dictate that the teacher's unions made the guns that killed kinder garden children and profited as well.

If I were a betting person, I would bet a coke that these radical leftist Socialists who abhor the Second Amendment are also invested in "record profits" BIG OIL and "record profits" insurance companies and Walmart and tobacco and liquor!

Scratch investment in loser green energy and organic and QueenJamesbible.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/17/calstrs-cerberus-idUSL1E8NHCO520121217

December 18, 2012 at 7:41 p.m.
Reardon said...

You attest that nothing could have prevented the Sandy Hook murders. Then you introduce the idea of banning something as a solution.

Without malice on my part, what is the logic in attempting to solve something that is unsolvable?

Now, certainly the challenge with my logic that I have not attempted to sort through entirely is to what extent does "bare arms" go?

I think it is reasonable I not park my tank in my front yard, nor do I think it's prudent to arm myself with an RPG launcher for the sake of self-defense.

I think the "solution" to the question would be partially derived from a well-reasoned explanation as to why one cannot yield the aforementioned weaponry.

Nevertheless, the extent of my logic in an attempt to solve such a problem as the Sandy Hook Mass Murders is restricted by my personal uber-libertarian morality. Machiavellian solutions are not my cup of tea.

But, perhaps, as you suggest, we should consider legislation that would encourage more responsibility for those who exercise their 2nd Amendment rights with populations that are not of right mind.

PS: I vaguely remember discussing topics with you years ago on this forum -- did you have another forum name? Also, I'm pleased to see another Hitchens admirer.

December 18, 2012 at 7:50 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Reardon,

"Without malice on my part, what is the logic in attempting to solve something that is unsolvable?"

Let be more clear. I don't think the action could have been prevented. But I do feel like the number of deaths could be lowered in the future if high ammunition clips and assault weapons are restricted or banned. One death is too many but fewer deaths would be a much better outcome to hope for in the future.

"we should consider legislation that would encourage more responsibility for those who exercise their 2nd Amendment rights with populations that are not of right mind."

I think that is the most reasonable option at this point. It is surprising to me that such legislation hasn't already been passed considering the amount of mental illness in our country and the fact that many of these recent killers have had some sort of mental problem. Guns and mental disorders do not mix and people with these issues should never be able to come into contact with any type of gun.

"did you have another forum name?"

I did not but I have read some of your previous post before.

"Also, I'm pleased to see another Hitchens admirer."

As am I! I wish I had more friends/acquaintances that were familiar with his work.

December 18, 2012 at 8:02 p.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "You Anti-Gunners here have simply got it completely wrong."

Who are all these anti-gunners thou types in reference to? I have yet to read one comment from anyone who believes that all guns should be outlawed.

"It shows a woman comforting and protecting a child [her's presumably, although not necessarily]. That is the historically correct things a woman does; it goes back to perpetuating the race; she is the life-giver; the action is automatic and unthinking."

I see. So in your world, a woman is only doing her "historically correct thing" when she automatically and unthinking submits to your attempted impregnation?

"It also shows the man fearing the loss of his best means of protecting his family from those in today's criminal society who would harm it."

OMG...a man needs an assault rifle to protect his family?

"That man [presumably the father] is their last resort for safety."

Gee...I know several women who pack heat, who are more than capable of assuring their own safety.

"That is his job and sole reason for being on this earth...it holds true for all real men [possibly excepting the girly kind]."

I had no idea that my sole reason for being on Earth, as a real man no less, is to obtain an assault rifle and to lay in wait in the off-chance that someone might attempt to harm my family.

"You can bet your last pfennig anyone, regardless of age, who shoots my door open will die after stepping through the gap."

As a lifelong American, I have had no reason to have a pfennig, but I digress.

After reading your post, I am left with no choice but to start quaking in my bedroom slippers.

December 18, 2012 at 8:25 p.m.
GrouchyJohn said...

According to stats available on the net, over 10% (as of 2010)of the US population (314,947,000 Dec 2012) is on mind altering drugs. Many of these people do very well on the drugs, they live decent productive lives. However, a number of them don't like the drugs and while they need them, they don't take them. Many that don't need them are taking them, too, but that is perhaps a different story. That means that some 31,400,000 of our "friends and neighbors" are in some manner a "nutcase". If only 1% of those 31million are OFF their meds, that leaves 310,000 of the US population that are nuts and OFF THEIR MEDS. Add to that the number of gangbangers, thieves and just plain rectums (I got told to watch my mouth as the other word is not allowed here) out there and I'd sooner have my pocket rocket handy than not.

On the other hand, on December 12, a man murdered an elderly woman and then went to an elementary school and murdered 22 kids. Did you hear about this? No, you didn't... nor did you hear of the other 7 instances like it that occurred in 2010 where 20 died and 50 were wounded. Why did you not hear about it? 1st, it happened in China. 2nd, all these deaths were done with knives. I guarantee that the Chinese people are hearing about Sandy Hook, mainly because the left wing anti-gun news services have made sure the story made the rounds. Why did not the mass murders done with knives not make the rounds? It did not meet their agenda as they weren't gun related.

MTJohn, to answer your question, they didn't intend on dying, they found themselves surrounded and killed themselves. If they could have escaped, they still would have been running, except for maybe Adam Lanza as he obviously was a nutcase and may not have cared one way or the other. Still, gun usage in crimes by "normal" people can be curtailed by either making the punishment so nasty they won't do it, or by only giving them 1 chance to commit that kind of action. One strike and you hang should be the replacement for 3 strikes and you're out

December 18, 2012 at 8:31 p.m.
alprova said...

JonRoss wrote: "Guns are the easiest of targets for the left to go after."

Could it be due to the simple fact that every single event of mass murder in this nation involves highly destructive firearms?

"However the culture of violence in this country has been created by Hollywood and their bloody video games and bloody movies."

But of course. Every single person who has ever played a bloody video game or who has watched a bloody movie, is at risk for becoming a mass murderer.

"But the left is not going to address that because 90% of Hollywood political contributions go to Dems."

As opposed to gun lobbyists dumping an equally unequal amount of cash into the coffers of Republicans?

December 18, 2012 at 8:37 p.m.
degage said...

All of you are insensitive dolts, always at each others throats over anything and everything. 20 dead children and all you can think of is how to put each other down. As for myself I am still in shock, how do I feel about guns? I don't know. The mother knew her son was unstable yet she had guns in the house and took her son to target practice with her. She was not being a responsible gun owner and it cost her life and the lives of 20 little ones. My heart breaks for the families of those children and adults lost last Friday.

If I lived in an area that I felt the need for a gun I would probably have one so I won't say guns should be banned, but who really needs an assult rifle.

December 18, 2012 at 9:09 p.m.
miraweb said...

I am always puzzled by the folks who think that because we cannot prevent all of the evils in the world for all time that we should not address the evils of our own time as best we can.

We know we can do better with mental health care.

We know we can do better with gun safety.

We know we can do better with a culture of understanding and peace.

Why wouldn't we try?

I would much rather go down failing than to have never started.

December 18, 2012 at 9:23 p.m.
rolando said...

Judge Roy Bean [of Texas, of course] had it right all along, Grouchy, although he was more than a bit over the top. Arrested, tried, and hung the same day.

I hear Sheriff Joe doesn't get a lot of repeat offenders in his jurisdiction, either; although the do live through the ordeal.

December 18, 2012 at 9:23 p.m.
rolando said...

"Who are all these anti-gunners thou types in reference to? I have yet to read one comment from anyone who believes that all guns should be outlawed."

They are all around you here, alpo. Matter of fact, you are one of them. Each and every one of you anti-gun wingnuts would be pleased as punch to see all guns confiscated [except blackpower, maybe -- but just maybe].

After all, any gun -- any kind at all -- except for the old single-shot blackpowder long gun muzzleloaders are capable of doing the same thing that happened at Newtown Elementary. But then knives can do it too...

December 18, 2012 at 9:28 p.m.
miraweb said...

Actually, I agree that violent video games are a problem. There is pretty good research that beyond a certain point your brain responds to a virtual world as if it were real.

There are reasons that the military is using virtual training modules that simulate battlefield kills. It is not just to develop accuracy. It is also to get soldiers to actually shoot.

I taught at a school that has a video game program for a while. The rules in my classes were no blood, no porn. A lot of 19 year old guys were flat out of ideas at that point. But they figured it out.

December 18, 2012 at 9:32 p.m.
rolando said...

"...every single event of mass murder in this nation involves highly destructive firearms?"

Now that one is exceedingly stupid, alpo. How about the biggest one of all? September 11th ring a bell? Or doesn't that fit into your narrowminded "murder" niche -- because Muslims carried it off?

Oh yeah...they used box-cutters [knives].

December 18, 2012 at 9:32 p.m.
rolando said...

I can understand seeiang the virtual world as if it were real, miraweb. In games involving decisions of all sorts, I find myself applying my personal ethics regardless of the outcome. Trying to create a new avatar with different mores doesn't work. The few times I violated my instincts [in the interest of gaming], I found I had to reload to an earlier time and do it "right".

Imagine that. A guilty conscience over a wrong decision in a game, for heavens sake. Wouldn't take much for a naturally violent or cruel individual to do his thing and then carry it over into the real world.

Luckily, most games now have an age rating on them; question is, do the parents see them or even care? Can't hurt the little darlings feelings now, can we? The CPS Gestapo will take them from you in a neartbeat on the slightest provocation these days.

December 18, 2012 at 9:43 p.m.
miraweb said...

This link goes to a discussion by a researcher who recreated the notorious Milgram experiment virtually.

Their results showed measurable stress and physiological responses even though people were interacting with a virtual avatar that they knew was not a real person.

I think ethical questions of this kind of virtual experimentation remain precisely because their results showed distress to the participants. The researcher involved may have a different viewpoint.

http://presence-thoughts.blogspot.com/2009/04/ethics-of-virtual-milgram-at-royal.html

December 18, 2012 at 9:43 p.m.
MTJohn said...

miraweb said...I am always puzzled by the folks who think that because we cannot prevent all of the evils in the world for all time that we should not address the evils of our own time as best we can...Why wouldn't we try?

Simple. Trying would require thinking beyond the limits of personal imagination. Trying would require commitment. Trying would require personal sacrifice.

December 18, 2012 at 9:43 p.m.
Rebus said...

MiraWeb: D'accord

December 18, 2012 at 9:45 p.m.
patriot1 said...

alpo....I'll have to side with Rolando on this one..every single event of mass murder involves firearms? Ever heard of Bath School? Google it sometime, I'm not going to look it up for you.

And what exactly is an "equally unequal amount of cash?"

December 18, 2012 at 9:46 p.m.
Maximus said...

Top 4 Priority List After Sandy Hook Killings

  1. Pray for the victims and their families. Provide as much spiritual and comforting support as possible.

  2. Investigate The Lanza family dynamic. What steps were the Mom and Dad taking, I know they were divorced by the way but the Dad should have still been involved, regarding the treatment and managment of their son? Had Adam refused medical treatment including medication? The parents are accountable not some government program. The family was financially affluent so the lack of government funding, programs, etc. does not apply here. Being a responsible parent does apply.

  3. Review and Revamp our federal and state mental health programs and policies regarding the patient rights of the severly mentally ill. Instead of the ACLU running our mental healthcare system maybe we need to leave it up to the local mental health professionals to determine treatment, management, and the possible need for civil committment of severly mentally ill patients like Adam Lanza. THIS IS WHERE OUR GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO SPEND ITS TIME NOT NEW GUN CONTROL LAWS THAT WOULD HAVE ZERO IMPACT.
  4. Sandy Hook Elementary was the perfect example of a secure school of the 21st. century. The principal, who was very brave, followed her lock down procedures last Friday morning and no one pressed the buzzer to visit the school until Adam Lanza and his guns broke in. It could be said that Sandy Hook Elementary was the perfect example of the peaceful gun free utopia that many anti-gun activists would love our country to be. Ironically, the guns, many of them held by our very brave and professional first responders brought peace once again to Sandy Hook Elementary after the shooter had taken so many precious lives. Think about it though, had the guns not arrived within minutes, the shooter would not have taken his own life. The shooter would have moved to another classroom and continued the rampage. Guns saved many, many lives on Friday. We need to take a close look at the people involved in order to learn anything from this horrible tradgedy. Gun control is not the answer. The worst school murders in the U.S. occurred in 1927 in Bath Township, Mich. A distraught city official that had recently lost an election used dynamite to kill 37 people, most of them children at the local elementary school.
December 18, 2012 at 9:49 p.m.
rolando said...

Exactly, miraweb. Thanks for the cite: most interesting. Further study necessary. T that is exactly what I felt when going against my ethics/mores, virtual character or not. Nice to know I am not alone in this.

On your 9:43 post, I am of mixed emotion. I strongly believe in free will [up to a point]. A man should have free will up until he breaks a law.

People are not "good" by nature; that's been bred out long ago. We would never have survived if we were. At best they are "neutral". Many are pure evil...but they still have free will and inalienable, God given [if you will] rights.

December 18, 2012 at 10:01 p.m.
miraweb said...

I don't know if we're bred to be good or evil. I have in my life, many times, seen people who have chosen to be extraordinary despite their circumstances.

I am always stunned and amazed by the people who can survive what is truly awful - and even more by those who choose to create something better for the future out of vast darkness.

There may be no meaning to suffering.

A few remarkable people do seem to have the gift of creating meaning out of suffering and I admire each and every one of them.

December 18, 2012 at 10:14 p.m.
MTJohn said...

rolando said...I strongly believe in free will [up to a point]. A man should have free will up until he breaks a law.

A person ought to have free will up until the point that he compromises the free will of another.

December 18, 2012 at 10:47 p.m.
BobMKE said...

The liberals want to create new gun laws and the current gun laws are not taken serious or not strengthened. I’m starting my 36th year in law enforcement so I know what I’m talking about. Several States Carry Concealed Weapons Laws are still misdemeanors. Granted they carry mandatory jail so the convicted receive weekends in jail for a month, or a few months in jail, but they can work at their jobs. In Wisconsin they strengthened Armed Robbery from 20 years to 40 years in prison. It didn’t do any good and the convicted are rarely sentenced to ten years in prison, which is not even close to the old laws, let alone 40 years in prison. The liberals just want to feel good when they pass such laws. If by some miracle the courts come down hard on just the current gun laws, what will happen is that a lot of African Americans are going to jail a lot more and serve more time. I’m not being racist here. Plus the vast majority of the victims that are being shot at, shot, or murdered, are African Americas. Do you really think the liberals will be concerned about the victims here or the fact that a lot more blacks are going to prison? What if a 17 teen year old fires a few shots at somebody tonight, but for the grace of God no one is hit, and he gets arrested. What is going to happen to him?

In 2011 - 7 years after the Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) expired - the DOJ reported that the murder rate in the US fell to a FOUR DECADE LOW.

8 years AFTER the expiration of the Assault Weapons Ban, the murder rate in the United States is LOWER than it was during EVERY SINGLE YEAR THAT THE BAN WAS IN PLACE.

The problem of evil actions -- to which we seem half-acclimated in this progressive century of ours -- precedes the invention of firearms. I could say it goes back to whatever Cain used on Abel: possibly just his non-controlled, non-regulated fingers. This is assuming the ill-fated pair in Genesis 4:8 excite recognition in our fast-secularizing world, where problems and solutions alike turn out to be present-embedded and human-made.

I’ve learned never to say, “I’ve seen it all.” What happened to the poor children and the brave unarmed staff and teachers rushing in to save their children, is just beyond believe. That is the horrific crime committed against the victims and the bravery of the staff and teachers. We have to be so grateful for people like this, who like police officers and firefighters, run to where their help is needed, instead of the other way. I say in memory of them, the leaders in this Country have to really look into how our present laws, throughout the Country, must be strengthen, and also enforce the present laws. Turn on your TV and listen to how many times the phrase "we must DO SOMETHING about this" is repeated. They must not knee jerk and pass un-thought-out laws again, just feel good.

December 18, 2012 at 11:34 p.m.
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