published Thursday, November 15th, 2012

Election Results

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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aae1049 said...

What an inaccurate depiction. At the White House and senate only. In the State of Tennessee, there are what, maybe 2 Democrats remaining in the entire state legislature? In fact, one lone Ham. County Dem state representative, can just take a long nap. The state house and senate can proceed without Dem presence. Republican Gov. doesn't even have to talk the Dems. I am certain that if Clay counted his total elected representatives, he would be lucky to find 1 Dem.

November 15, 2012 at 12:16 a.m.
nucanuck said...

aae1049,

You miss the point that Tea Baggers have faired poorly, moreso than Republicans overall. Corker and Alexander certainly aren't Tea Baggers.

Tea Baggers were and are a fringe element who are now slipping into irrelevance,IMO.

November 15, 2012 at 12:37 a.m.
alprova said...

Yesireee...over the next four years, the Republican Party is gonna be cutting those tea bagging strings, one by one.

In addition to that, Bibles are far more likely to remain sitting on a table back in those Congressional offices, rather than to be carried out onto the House floor.

Why I'll even bet that the procession of anti-abortion bills that marked this session of Congress comes to a screeching halt in the 113th Session.

And any talk of deporting illegal immigrants will be confined to closed offices.

In 2016, the Republican Party will be emulating the Democrats.

The bonus? Talking heads like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, et al, will become persona non grata.

Yep...the next Presidential election will most certainly be more competitive, and the neo-cons who have tried to rule the roost are going to find themselves completely shut out.

November 15, 2012 at 12:54 a.m.
David_Franks said...

(tenting fingers) Excellent! (end tenting fingers)

November 15, 2012 at 1:29 a.m.
miraweb said...

The country is certainly done with the extremists in the Tea Party.

I'm not so sure the GOP can shake it off so easily. They've got a real problem.

November 15, 2012 at 4:55 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

We're still broke, even if the party that best notices this fact did less well than some expected.

Coveting is still sin, even if it's public policy. Repent!

The murder of little babies is still evil--repent!--and most Americans would like a few more restrictions on abortion. Time to think about it? Info on the little one whose killing is being considered? Let parents know if their child is considering one? Stop funding outfits that'd help do abortions for the convenience of the pimps of underage illegal-immigrant prostitutes?

They came for the rich, and I wanted a piece of that money myself. They came for the Tea Party, and I wanted a piece of that power myself. Then they came for...

November 15, 2012 at 6:01 a.m.
librul said...

Many Americans are having a laugh making jokes about the "bubble" in which Republicans and their Fox News loudmouths resided until the election pinprick exposed most of them to a new reality.

Too few Americans have yet to awaken to the cauldron of hate of them seething on the other side of the world as a result of the campaign of murder and mayhem from Mr. Obama's drone fleet and the State of Israel's ongoing genocide in Gaza.

It would be well for every American to get out of their bubble and spend a few moments reading the words of Chris Floyd, Chris Hedges and Paul Craig Roberts lest they find THEIR bubble pricked unexpectedly with far more dramatic effect.

http://www.chris-floyd.com/

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/once_again_--_death_of_the_liberal_class_20121112/

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

Sure, we dodged a Romney bullet and the election forced us to recognize we're not living in our daddy's America, but we do live in the world of today and our country has to come to grips with far greater challenges.

Mr. Roberts says it all in two paragraphs:

"What is it with Americans and sex? Why is an illicit affair the ONLY reason for removing someone from political office? Why is it that government officials, presidents and vice presidents included, can violate US statutory law and torture people, spy on Americans without the necessary warrants, murder US citizens without due process, confine US citizens to dungeons for life without evidence and due process of law, start multi-trillion dollar wars on the basis of contrived allegations that have no basis in fact, murder civilians in seven countries, overthrow legitimate governments, and all of these massive crimes against humanity can be accepted as long as no one in Washington gets any sex out of it? Is this feminism's contribution to American morality?

Has the United States, the hero of the cold war, become in its behavior and motivations the enemy it overcame? Why does Washington want hegemony over the world? Why does Washington want this hegemony so badly that Washington is willing to murder women, children, aid workers, husbands and fathers, village elders, anyone on earth including its own American heroes?

When we can answer those questions, maybe we can find reason to celebrate.

November 15, 2012 at 7:11 a.m.
EaTn said...

About a quarter of the voters lean hard right, a quarter hard left and the remaining half are what elect the president. Romney first had to corral the hard right, which was not a total success, then soften his stance to the middle. This was not a move he was comfortable in performing and was his ultimate downfall.

November 15, 2012 at 7:25 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Several regular conservatives are kinda AWOL since the election. Maybe they've caught the McAfee Virus. Maybe they're planning a 'Belize' Navidad.

November 15, 2012 at 7:31 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Hold the presses! Broadwell left a dinner attended by numerous luminary generals for a secret run with Lance Armstrong! Does this mean the President is on steroids? I report, you decide!

November 15, 2012 at 7:48 a.m.
jesse said...

Same ole toons ,same ole responses,

Same ole posters!same ole same ole!

seems like the entertainment thresh hold on here is set kinda LOW!!

Only time it gits real is when limric or some times nucanuk gits their pantyhose in a wad!

November 15, 2012 at 8:09 a.m.
hambone said...

Everyone in the GOP has their own opinion as to why Romney lost. When the real reason is simple.

When you look back at the Clown circus that was the GOP debates.

Romney came out as the LEAST LOSER !

November 15, 2012 at 8:20 a.m.
jesse said...

Ham that is total B/S! Romney NEVER fig.out how to connect with Joe Public! He is a 1% er and just can't relate to the common folk! He tried ,it just never took hold because it wasn't real! He had not a clue and it showed! Obama did not win this election,Romney gave it to him!

November 15, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.
tifosi said...

If the word "Grand" is going to return to the GOP then the Teabaggers must go. I support our President and I miss Ronald Reagan.

November 15, 2012 at 9:21 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

I will go along with jesse ^^^^^ on this one.

November 15, 2012 at 9:22 a.m.
blackwater48 said...

ATTA BOY

The republican led Ohio State Legislature just met in their first session since the elections. They immediately passed two bills.

The first will cut off funding for Planned Parenthood.

The second will further restrict abortion rights.

This highlights the conundrum facing the GOP. Some in the Party have suggested they should back off their immovable stance on lowering tax rates for the wealthy.

It's a shrewd political move. Republicans will still do their best to protect the rich but they hope to score points with independent, and they are willing to hedge a little on the fiscal side of modern conservatism. Exit polls showed 60% of voters favored the rich paying a little more, including those who supported Romney.

The cultural side of conservatism, however, as Ohio just demonstrated, won't budge. If the republican establishment tries to move to the center on this, tea baggers will bolt and possibly run their own candidate in future elections. Or back a Libertarian candidate.

Exit polls also showed that 60% oppose criminalizing abortion.

Republicans are desperate to remain politically relevant and one overlooked fact in the election stood out for me. Republicans still control the House of Representatives, but If you add up all the votes in every House race, more people voted for democrats than republicans. Republican State legislatures did a good job of redistricting but democrats still managed to pick up seven or eight seats. Not only did democrats retain the White House but they also added to their majority in the Senate.

Politicians follow trends, and the battle within the republican party will play out over the coming weeks and months. They say they want to reach out to all voters, which would include those who support abortion rights.

So, to the Ohio legislator who introduced those bills, I say, Atta boy!

November 15, 2012 at 9:28 a.m.
JustOneWoman said...

"Dear Mitt and Paul,

I wanted to clear something up for you.

I have seen the debate about what went wrong, and why you lost this election. As a voter I want you to know that my voting against you had nothing to do with the fact that you are both rotten people.

It was not because of your crazy religions.

It had nothing to do with Eastwood’s empty chair, or the hurricane, or the liberal media telling me bad things about Bain. ........... I voted for a man who brought my childhood friends home from war that they could kiss their wives and tuck their kids in at night. I voted for a guy who loves New Jersey more than he dislikes Chris Christie. I voted for the guy who looked in the mirrors of his daughter’s eyes, questioned himself, and changed his mind about marriage equality. I voted for the guy who called Sandra Fluke and told her that her parents should be proud. I voted for the guy who honors the women in his life by ensuring them trust to make their own reproductive and health choices and opportunity to work through glass ceilings with equal pay. I voted for the guy who signed the stimulus that paid for the hearing aids that allowed me to hear my children clearly. I voted for the guy who gave my sister the ability to buy health insurance in spite of pre existing conditions. I voted for the guy who picked Joe Biden for a VP. Joe’s love for his country, his willingness to give of himself, his smarts and experience are top notch. I voted for the guy who was smart enough to put a ring on Michelle Obama’s finger.

Most importantly, I voted for the guy who will continue to place America and what is right for her first." http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021820938

You guys simply have to broaden your news sources if you want to stay relevant with this country! Listen to faux liars all you want, but then don't complain when you don't know your azz from a hole in the ground, and can't understand what the American people are telling you.

November 15, 2012 at 9:30 a.m.
jesse said...

i hate to tell you this j.o.w.BUT you been had! You ARE startin to believe the hype!

When you start to believe what the "TRUE BELIVERS" tell you ,you are in DEEP SH!T!

November 15, 2012 at 9:41 a.m.
JustOneWoman said...

dear jessee...LOLOLOLOLOL I do more research than you have in your fingernail. I don't watch network news. Your words are meaningless here. We won. Get over it.

November 15, 2012 at 9:48 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

j.o.w.: Research, huh? Partisan websites? Romney/Ryan "truly rotten people"? Pretty quick to demonize successful, hard working guys. People like you scare the isht outta me.

November 15, 2012 at 9:53 a.m.
jesse said...

Hey j.o.w.!

i voted for Obama BUT I don't buy into his b/s!

Hey j.o.w. ! I don't care how much "RESEARCH" you do, you still got smoke blowin up your azz! I voted for Obama ,BUT not because i believed what he said,but because the other guy was a bigger lair than he was!

November 15, 2012 at 10 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Until the republican party ceases its religious Christian agenda, Holy Crusades, imperialist wars, attacks against personal choices in drugs, reproduction, and sexual preferences, it will continue to decline.

You can not be for less government and continue to fight wars of aggression, support Israel without question, use mercenaries on foreign shores, and continue to erode personal liberties in the name of God and patriotism.

November 15, 2012 at 10:02 a.m.
delmar said...
November 15, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.
aae1049 said...

No it is you that missed the point. All you folks claiming the Tea Party is yesterday, don't have a clue that all of your elected representatives have (R) at the end of their name. The Tea Party is absolutely strong in Tennessee and is the grassroots mover and shaker. Otherwise, crayon boy would not be dissin um.

You guys read way too much in these crayon doodles. I bet you still play Beatles albums backwards and find hidden meaning.

Not one of you has bothered to post how many elected Dem representives you have in local, state, or federal office. I bet you don't even know, and I bet if Clay counted his (R) reps. he would break crayola.

November 15, 2012 at 10:11 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Darwin sounds like a first semester freshman at Cal Berkeley.

November 15, 2012 at 10:12 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

When you don’t have a free press, like the US now, the government can say and do pretty much whatever it wants. Obama presser a bad joke.

Question: Does this not bother any of you southpaws? Tell the truth.

November 15, 2012 at 10:16 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

I have a question:::

Yesterday people were talking about how the Repubs should just go along with all that Obama wants to do and not try to stop or change anything. But doesn't that go against the will of the people that elected them? And aren't they supposed to representatives of those people?

Ok sorry, that was 2 questions.

November 15, 2012 at 10:19 a.m.
JustOneWoman said...

delmar said... Good post JustOneWoman. Here's an article you might like.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/14/the-final-insult-mitt-romney-s-clueless-gift-gaffe.html

Thanks Delmar. Good article. A liar thinks everyone lies. And a salesman thinks everything is for sale. A moocher thinks everyone mooches. Rmoney is one of the biggest liar moochers of tax payer funds for his own profit.

He has already been charged with racketeering/profiteering, so the future will be interesting. I guess he will blame the American people for his being caught on these too!

(11-1-12)"The Presidential candidate has just learned that tomorrow afternoon he will be charged with violating the federal Ethics in Government law by improperly concealing his multi-million dollar windfall from the auto industry bail-out."

"At a press conference in Toledo, Bob King, President of the United Automobile Workers, will announce that his union and Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) have filed a formal complaint with the US Office of Government Ethics in Washington stating that Gov. Romney improperly hid a profit of $15.3 million to $115.0 million in Ann Romney's so-called "blind" trust." http://www.nationofchange.org/uaw-files-charges-against-romney-his-auto-bail-out-profiteering-1351783724

November 15, 2012 at 10:27 a.m.
nucanuck said...

Maybe we should ban ALL political parties! Maybe every candidate should run on his/her own merits. Ban Lobbying! Get the corporate money out of politics.

Any grouping that causes us to behave as tribes seems to be destructive.

November 15, 2012 at 10:29 a.m.
JustOneWoman said...

Jack_Dennis said... j.o.w.: Research, huh? Partisan websites? Romney/Ryan "truly rotten people"? Pretty quick to demonize successful, hard working guys. People like you scare the isht outta me.

That goes right in line with the fear your side has been spewing. Since when is "democratic" a partison word. I am fairly sure democratic republic is what we have in this country. Maybe you have something else in mind. If that is the case, then be afraid....be very afraid.

And just in case you haven't learned yet, networks will lie to you. Democratic underground is for all and is the news from the people, but you go ahead and think whatevery your little fearful brain wants to do.

November 15, 2012 at 10:32 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

So j.o.w.: You APPROVE of the love-fest of BHO by the press? It's a simple question. And don't be so insulting. I'm sympathetic to the fact that you have been duped.

November 15, 2012 at 10:36 a.m.
Lr103 said...

Supernova - * These occur at the end of a star's lifetime, when its nuclear fuel is exhausted and it is no longer supported by the release of nuclear energy. If the star is particularly massive, then its core will collapse.......

Even their color, red, is befitting. And just like a supernova that becomes brighter and brighter.....until....UNTIL.....U N T I L ..... it explodes and spews it guts all over space, so will the GOP if it continues to hang on to tea party philosophies and ideologies.

Hatin' on gays, women, Latinos, blacks and even whites and fellow Republicans who doesn't subscribe to an archaic and outdated belief system will be the undoing. Tapping into that leftover remaining fraction of racist hate groups will fail. That Machiavellian, divide and conquer the masses approach, won't work in today's socially blended, diverse America--where most everyone proudly and openly admits to a blood relation to someone of a different race, ethnicity, class and social group. Where families no longer disown their gay and lesbian kin. Where people of a different religion or no religion have come to respect one anothers' right to believe or not believe as they so choose. Where an individual of western religious belief might have a relative of middle-eastern religious belief and they both live together in the same household with an atheist.

November 15, 2012 at 10:40 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

love fest?

I have seen many articles critical of Obama. Do you even read any news, or only what conservative websites tell you?

November 15, 2012 at 10:44 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

lr103: I will bookmark your paragraph on "hate". (even tho I'm sure you didn't write it) It's classic leftist spin of the worst kind. Shame, shame shame. Pretty sure I don't know a single conservative that believe the lies to spin. My question is, "how does one become so hate-filled and wrong"? You need to drop back and reflect before posting such bs.

November 15, 2012 at 11:02 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

So Lu, are you seriously saying you don't see the press loveliest?

November 15, 2012 at 11:03 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your opinion means nothing in this, JonRoss. Your credibility is gone, and you have shown yourself to be a liar over and over. My question/comment was not addressed to you.

November 15, 2012 at 11:07 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I am not seeing the media treat Obama any differently than any other politician. When he ran ads that were dishonest, they reported it. (as with Romney) Fact check goes after him for things he has said publicly (as with Romney and many others) I see no "love fest", only news reporters trying to do their jobs, but not perfectly. I see as many as what I see on Fox (with this caveat, of course: I do not watch any TV so I am speaking of newspapers and internet) I stick to the mainstream as much as I can: Fox, WSJ, WaPo, NYT, CNN, Economist. I will read linked items at Motherjones and Townhall, but I don't read them regularly.

Incidentally, Fox and NYT do the best job on my favorite topic, science. Much better than any of the others.

November 15, 2012 at 11:13 a.m.

aae1049, I think we all know that Tennessee has long been a state of one-party government. The label has changed, but not the script.

But I think you'd be surprised at the results if we had actually representative government and not the gerrymandered districts that are implemented to skirt the ruling in Baker v. Carr. Heck, that that lawsuit was required should tell you something.

Nationwide though, that's another story. Go check out California and Colorado. Check out the actual voting results in Pennsylvania. If they hadn't picked their districts very carefully, the Republicans would have lost even more in the House.

And take a look at these maps:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/2012/

http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/JAVA/election2012/

In any case, you won't see Corker or Alexander acting like a Tea Party stalwart. And they will squelch any opposition that might push them in that direction.

lkeithlu, actually, I found the media to tend to nit-pick Obama's statements while ignoring the sweeping inaccuracies of Romney's.

Case in point, Romney's comments regarding the size of the Navy, which the media faithfully repeated while hardly questioning its fallacious nature. Then they got hysteric over Obama's rebuttal.

Then for a more relevant example here, try how they still get upset over Obama's "57 states remark" which was clearly mis-speaking while ignoring how Iran doesn't need Syria for a path to the sea.

librul, America was never the virtuous hero of the Cold War you might be mislead into believing it was. Check out the coup in Iran. Check out the support for the Contras. Check out Pinochet. Check out Suharto. Check out Batista. Check out former US ally Saddam Hussein.

No, don't delude yourself into thinking the US was above such things.

November 15, 2012 at 11:14 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Johnross wrote: "I am embarassed for my daughter" should read, "My daughter is embarrassed by me!"

Glad to help out littlejohnnyross or do y'all have matching klan outfits?

November 15, 2012 at 11:25 a.m.
JustOneWoman said...

Jack_Dennis said... So j.o.w.: You APPROVE of the love-fest of BHO by the press? It's a simple question. And don't be so insulting. I'm sympathetic to the fact that you have been duped.

Jack, you are amusing....and, well, just amusing. Personally I think you are a simpleton jerk, but posting wise, just amusing. I don't watch network news so I have no idea what love-fest to which you are referring. But I have seen a love fest start coming from the Republicans. Wonder what is up?

November 15, 2012 at 11:26 a.m.
Rob51 said...

The END is near. just not so much in TN. yet. this was an historic election. after 30 years careening rightward, the pendulum is on its way back to sanity, fairness, freedom and justice. enjoy the ride!

November 15, 2012 at 11:29 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Blackwater48 notes: “The republican led Ohio State Legislature just met in their first session since the elections. They immediately passed two bills. The first will cut off funding for Planned Parenthood. The second will further restrict abortion rights.

I believe Ohio’s Republicans are suffering from some kind of disorder – the kind of disorder that makes it difficult for a person to have any reasonable thoughts.

Indeed, what sort of idiots would want to cut off funding for an organization whose primary mission is to provide primary care and prevent unintended pregnancies through contraception. Without the services provided by an agency like Planned Parenthood, the issues involving unplanned pregnancies will only increase - including abortion and poverty:

“Women who attempted get abortions but were denied are three times as likely to fall into poverty than those whose efforts were not blocked, a recent study conducted by researchers at University of California San Francisco found. . .

Researchers found that a year after seeking an abortion, more than three-quarters of the women turned away were on public assistance and 67 percent were below the poverty line. Fewer than half of those turned away held a full time job.

Figures dropped significantly for the women who received abortions.

"When a woman is denied the abortion she wants, she is statistically more likely to wind up unemployed, on public assistance, and below the poverty line," lead researcher Dr. Diana Greene Foster explained. . .

"Another conclusion we could draw is that denying women abortions places more burden on the state because of these new mothers' increased reliance on public assistance programs."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/14/abortion-poverty-study_n_2130890.html

November 15, 2012 at 11:42 a.m.
JustOneWoman said...

mountainlaurel said... "Another conclusion we could draw is that denying women abortions places more burden on the state because of these new mothers' increased reliance on public assistance programs."

Another conclusion we could draw is that city, county, state, and federal funds will be used to fight it because it is unconstitutional. This just furthers the release of money which is so badly needed to keep these entities afloat. Bankrupt the governments, and move in. I think you will find these jokers do not even know they are being used to divide and conquor. They just see that it is wrapped in a flag and on top of the bible.

November 15, 2012 at 11:53 a.m.
whatsnottaken said...

Lame. I would venture to guess that 75 percent of the voters in the major population hubs that carried Osama to the win have never heard of the Tea Party. Election had nothing to do with Tea Party rweally, just demographics.

November 15, 2012 at 12:14 p.m.
aae1049 said...

Happy, I have been around long enough to know that redistricting occurs in the same manner with Dems. However, PRIOR to Tennessee redistricting in 2011, the Tennessee legislature was still a conservative majority. Redistricting just created s super duper conservative majority.

So you and crayon boy, can use those maps as crying towels, because the fact is all your federal and state reps are REPUBLICAN! with Tea Party support. XOXO

November 15, 2012 at 12:39 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

I don't believe the republican party will go away as some have suggested. With a 50% to 49% vote, less than 2 million votes difference, it would appear the country is still split down them middle.

And here is my opinion as to why Obama got re-elected. It was the uninformed under 35 yr old vote. Here is a video that is quite telling of the culture.

November 15, 2012 at 12:55 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

poor ikee, she has her turned heart, soul, and reproductive system over to obama.

typical JonRoss, whose brain is stuck on stupid, and who has absolutely nothing to offer so resorts to exposing that stupid for everyone to see.

Thanks, JonRoss. You do it all on your own. Nothing for anyone else to do.

Nurse, you can find uninformed voters on both sides of the aisle.

November 15, 2012 at 1:06 p.m.
miraweb said...

Now we know America really is under attack:

Will There Be No More Twinkies?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/us-news-blog/2012/nov/15/hostess-twinkie-snack-cakes

November 15, 2012 at 1:09 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

well i totally agree with you on that, lkeith. But, IMO, which I know is not worth much, Romney had something to prove so more people were listening to him while Obama has many supporters who don't really keep up with events. I believe it is the same with whomever would be in office. The incumbent has that advantage.

November 15, 2012 at 1:16 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Actually, that is not always true. Stereotypes and generalizations are not helpful. Many people I know that voted for Obama in 2008 hesitated in 2012 because of the slow recovery. They, like me, wanted to see if the GOP had any fresh ideas. In the end, they really did not. In addition, many of us are tired to death of the GOP's perceived monopoly on patriotism. "Take our country back?" From whom? The Philippinos? It finally got so insulting to be referred to by the candidates as "the others" "the takers" etc.

I was all set to vote for McCain in 2008 (until Sarah Palin was tapped). I try not to commit too soon in any election.

Yes, there were people who voted for Obama for the wrong reasons. But there are people who hate Obama based on lies and conspiracy theories. I don't see that same level of hate and misrepresentation directed at Romney. I know plenty of "takers" so to speak that voted against Obama for the simple reason of race, others that are CONVINCED that he is Muslim (don't know why that matters) or Foreign. These are real people, not stereotypes.

November 15, 2012 at 1:29 p.m.
miraweb said...

Jindal: Tolerating crazy means we lose elections or "Stop Being the Stupid Party"


A rather good interview with Governor Bobby Jindal at Politico


It is no secret we had a number of Republicans damage our brand this year with offensive, bizarre comments — enough of that. It’s not going to be the last time anyone says something stupid within our party, but it can’t be tolerated within our party. We’ve also had enough of this dumbed-down conservatism. We need to stop being simplistic, we need to trust the intelligence of the American people and we need to stop insulting the intelligence of the voters.

More:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/83743.html

November 15, 2012 at 1:29 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You know, I always counted Jindal among the crazies. Guess I will have to change my mind about him! Perry said the same about Texans signing a petition to secede. I am proud of any Republicans that are willing to set aside crazy for the good of the country.

November 15, 2012 at 1:32 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

lkeithlu said... Yes, there were people who voted for Obama for the wrong reasons. But there are people who hate Obama based on lies and conspiracy theories. I don't see that same level of hate and misrepresentation directed at Romney. I know plenty of "takers" so to speak that voted against Obama for the simple reason of race, others that are CONVINCED that he is Muslim (don't know why that matters) or Foreign. These are real people, not stereotypes.

We are in agreement here. Even tho I am a conservative, I would never vote just on that premise. I vote according to whom I believe would do the best job not just for the moment but over the whole term.

I find most of the candidates lacking on both sides.

November 15, 2012 at 1:36 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Indeed, nurse!

November 15, 2012 at 1:38 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

I see where the divorce transcript of Scott "I'm anti-abortion and anti-drugs except when it's Me" DesJarlais has been released.

Praise Jebus and Gawd for Tea Party Douchbaggery and Saint Scott the Hypocrite.

November 15, 2012 at 1:42 p.m.
joepulitzer said...

Apparently Bennett does not know what pruning does.

November 15, 2012 at 1:44 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Tea Party members who agree with Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock's pre-election statements concerning rape, abortion, and God's will, please signify by posting "Aye."

A simple enough question even Scott DesJarlais could understand without putting a gun in his mouth.

November 15, 2012 at 2:24 p.m.
WHS1970 said...

Scott Desjarlais for President 2016!!! He is the most honest and moral politician in the GOP. You heard it here first.

November 15, 2012 at 2:47 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Lu said "I know plenty of "takers" so to speak that voted against Obama for the simple reason of race, others that are CONVINCED that he is Muslim (don't know why that matters) or Foreign. These are real people, not stereotypes."

I don't. Again, sounds like you're running with the wrong crowd.

November 15, 2012 at 3:21 p.m.
delmar said...

joepulitzer said... "Apparently Bennett does not know what pruning does."

Uhm,,,he's not pruning a shrub. It's a hat symbolizing America wherein the the danglin',,,,, oh never mind.....

Excellent post at 1:29 lkeithlu. Particularly the first paragraph, it IS rather draining to hear/read so much negativity with no solutions offered... From all sides.

November 15, 2012 at 3:26 p.m.
mymy said...

I have said it before and I say it again: the stupidity of the American people is growing every day!!!

One comment: “Obama wants "revenge." That is his word, not ours. 51% of the voters think "revenge" is a terrific idea. Ohio and Pennsylvania were the hardest hit? They both went for Obama. Excuse me...I have to wipe the tears of laughter off my chin.”

Surprise! Jobless Claims Up 78,000 Week After Election; PA, OH Worst Hit

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/11/15/Surprise-Jobless-Claims-Up-Over-75000

November 15, 2012 at 3:37 p.m.

Aae1049, in case you didn't know, Baker in the case I mentioned was a Republican who felt disenfeanchised by Tennessee's districting or lack thereof. And yes, those were putative Democrats at the time. They were never liberals though.

What they really were was a bunch of racist and bigoted conservatives, they still are, just under a Republican label. And they're still gerrymandering, just more carefully and less obviously. So no, I don't pretend the system of electioneering results in representation of me.

We'd all be better off if systems that provided for true representation were in place. If you want to pretend the fault is even-handed, you can as long as you're willing to stick with a solution.

And here's another map:

http://gizmodo.com/5960290/this-is-the-real-political-map-of-america-hint-we-are-not-that-divided

Sorry, it's not so red as you dream.

Lkeithlu, I might have voted for the real McCain but apparently we got a panderer who wanted a worse one on the ticket.

Some of the hysterical stuff from the right has gotten me wondering if they're setting up a Sistah Souljah moment for a putatively moderate nice guy.

November 15, 2012 at 3:54 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

JD, your not knowing anyone does not change the fact that I do. And these are people I like and respect in many other ways.

November 15, 2012 at 4:02 p.m.
Lr103 said...

Jack_Dennis said... lr103: My question is, "how does one become so hate-filled and wrong"? You need to drop back and reflect before posting such bs.

So, JackieD baby, were you asleep? stone? drunk? during all that insulting hate talk coming from the right during campaigning? Many Iowans and New HampshireITES, predominantley white areas, were apparently turned off by it too. They overwhelmingly voted to reelect President Obama. That's another thing the media is ignoring. The fact that President Obama overwhelmingly received many white votes too who became disenchanted and sought to distance themselves from all that right wing hate talk.

November 15, 2012 at 4:05 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

tu_quoque said...

DaytonDipsh!t Another One Trick Pony:

“Until the republican party ceases its religious Christian agenda,”

You’re still pissed about not being selected as an Alter Boy … Aren’t you?"

That would be no. Also that would be "Altar" boy. Next time you're on your knees for religious reasons, pray to Jehovah for a dictionary or spell-checker.

See if that wish comes true from the invisible Sky Daddy if he's not too busy with his loving famines, wars, diseases, and pestilence.

There's nothing that shows the Jumping Jehovah's great love for humans like killing innocent people. Oh Yahweh, Thanksgiving won't be the same unless you slaughter several hundred thousand people before turkey day so we can give thanks for your love and mercy and sending Jesus to continue the bloodbath in your name. Amen.

November 15, 2012 at 4:11 p.m.
timbo said...

I can't believe how dumb you liberals are. Bennett couldn't be more wrong.

Here is why:

  1. The Tea Party was responsible for the GOP taking the House in 2010. Only 2 years ago conservatives won by historic margins.

  2. The House changed very little in this election. GOP still in charge because of the Tea Party.

  3. In this election, Obama won by a very narrow margin of less than 3%. It was no mandate.

  4. There were 7 million less GOP votes than in 2008. Conservatives and the Tea Party stayed home because they didn't trust Romney being conservative enough. That 7 million votes would have won it for Romney.

  5. When you take into consideration the last 4 elections, 2 Presidential and 2 congressional, the GOP lost with two liberal Republicans for President and won the House with conservatives.

  6. Democrats don't want to help Republicans. Giving conservatives advice about how they need to pander to blacks, women, and Hispanics is not to help us. It is too make sure the Republicans go with liberal losers.

  7. Obama is black and a minority. The large turnout for him in this election was for that reason. A liberal white candidate wouldn't have gotten this turnout. Obama's wins are not a trend, they are just a one time deal.

  8. This election was also about "free stuff." 50% of the population wants it and they want the other 50% to pay for it. Conservatives have to do a better job showing how conservative principles work in every day life. The need to emulate Dave Ramsey sales pitch. He uses conservative principles to teach people fiscal responsibility.

  9. The Tea Party will dominate in 2014 again.

That is why Bennett and the rest of you imbeciles are full of crap.

November 15, 2012 at 4:12 p.m.
timbo said...

One more thing, the establishment Republicans hate the Tea Party more than anyone. Why??? Because they can't control the Tea Party and the establishment is forced to look like conservatives.

The establishment would tax and spend as much as the Democrats if left to their own devices. Bush proved that....

November 15, 2012 at 4:15 p.m.
aae1049 said...

Timbo, logic does not work on these Left of Obama folks. It is like talking to a piece of wood with crayon graffiti.

November 15, 2012 at 4:16 p.m.
miraweb said...

Too Busy For Benghazi Briefings

Most of the Republican members of a Senate committee investigating the terrorist attack at the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya, skipped an classified briefing by administration officials on the incident Wednesday, CNN has learned.

When CNN noted that McCain had missed a key meeting on a subject the senator has been intensely upset about, McCain said, "I'm upset that you keep badgering me."

According to a Democratic aide on the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, only three of the eight GOP members of the committee attended the two hour briefing that ran from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. ET. By contrast, seven of the nine Democratic members were there.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/15/mccain-skips-benghazi-briefing-gets-testy-when-questioned-by-cnn/

November 15, 2012 at 4:17 p.m.
timbo said...

aae1049...Liberalism is based on "feelings" and "emotion." Logic is a dirty word to that bunch. A piece of wood has more brains.

November 15, 2012 at 4:19 p.m.
miraweb said...

mymy - What you are missing is Obama already has his revenge.

"No, no, no — don't boo, vote. Vote. Voting is the best revenge." - President Obama

And we did.

November 15, 2012 at 4:19 p.m.
miraweb said...

Rubio Rebuts Romney

Rubio said that as a party, “our mission should not be to deny government benefits to people who need them,” but the GOP should work to ensure “less people need government benefits.”

“I don’t want to rebut him point by point,” Rubio said of Romney. “I would just say to you, I don’t believe that we have millions and millions of people in this country that don’t want to work. I’m not saying that’s what [Romney] said. I think we have millions of people in this country that are out of work and are dependent on the government because they can’t find a job.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/83938.html

November 15, 2012 at 4:24 p.m.
timbo said...

miraweb...you all must be suicidal to vote for President Piss Ant.

As far as revenge, you idiots don't affect the rich. You might make them pay a little more tax but they control jobs and the economy. All we have to do is lay off and hold money for growth investment and all of the union members, welfare queens, 2 bit politicians (Obama) can suck wind.

If you do raise my taxes I will pass it on to my customer and you dumb asses will pay more. If I get mad enough, I can just close my business and move to Belize. If my country is going to be run by third world rejects, then I might as well live somewhere with a nice beach and a cheap cost of living.

France has been taken over by the left and that is just what is happening. The rich are leaving in droves and taking their money and jobs with them.

You can't control us period. Your childish "revenge" is only hurting yourselves.

So go ahead and knock yourself out.

November 15, 2012 at 4:30 p.m.
fairmon said...

justonewoman....you were on a roll until at the end you added the below statement. Biden is a buffoon and is not someone to become POTUS if, heaven forbid, something happened to the president.

jowsaid included in an otherwise well written post....

I voted for the guy who picked Joe Biden for a VP. Joe’s love for his country, his willingness to give of himself, his smarts and experience are top notch.

November 15, 2012 at 4:30 p.m.
joepulitzer said...

hey, delmar, oh, never mind.

P.S. I SEE YOU STILL BELIEVE IN Barrack Osanta. But, hey, I understand: you're getting an Obama phone for Christmas.

November 15, 2012 at 4:37 p.m.
jesse said...

I 'm gonna bite the bullit and admit tu quo actually said something i agree with! The unions have been shootin themselves in the foot for 70 years! They are the reason we don't have a steel indst. in the U.S.A. no mo!Not just wages BUT job rules,benefits and perks!

November 15, 2012 at 4:40 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

"I voted for the guy who picked Joe Biden for a VP. Joe’s love for his country, his willingness to give of himself, his smarts and experience are top notch."

Now THAT's the craziest thing I've heard lately.

November 15, 2012 at 4:45 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Lr103: You have selective memory. No hate-talk from the left, huh? How about racism, war on women, bible-thumpin, etc.? Your crowd totally demonized a decent man. Wise up.

November 15, 2012 at 4:48 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

I do love the photographs of DesJarlaid. He always appears as though he's smelling something stinky on his upper lip.

In fact he is! It's one of his patients!

November 15, 2012 at 4:54 p.m.
mtngrl said...

Jack_Dennis said...

"Lr103: You have selective memory. No hate-talk from the left, huh? How about racism, war on women, bible-thumpin, etc.? Your crowd totally demonized a decent man. Wise up."

You just perfectly described the hate from the Right...

November 15, 2012 at 4:54 p.m.
jesse said...

Hey Jack, J.O.W. is an idjit! you been on here long enough to pick up on who's real and who's full of it!!

November 15, 2012 at 4:56 p.m.
Lr103 said...

JackieD-baby said: Jack_Dennis said... Lr103: You have selective memory. No hate-talk from the left, huh? How about racism, war on women, bible-thumpin, etc.?

That wasn't hate-talk jackied-baby. What part of any of the above you mention isn't true?

November 15, 2012 at 4:56 p.m.
fairmon said...

nucanuck said... Maybe we should ban ALL political parties! Maybe every candidate should run on his/her own merits. Ban Lobbying! Get the corporate money out of politics.

Any grouping that causes us to behave as tribes seems to be destructive.

nucanuck....You propose an uutstanding comcept but you do know both mobs will attack you for verbalizing such an idea.

November 15, 2012 at 5:04 p.m.
jesse said...

Why do they keep sayin DEJarlis was sleeping w/his patients! I can gar on tee you he wasn't sleeping! He was bangin their brains out! JUST SAY IT!!OUT LOUD!! He's a low life bottom feeder that ,in two years will be lookin for a JOB!!

November 15, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
Lr103 said...

miraweb said: Rubio said, I don’t want to rebut him point by point,” Rubio said of Romney. “I would just say to you, I don’t believe that we have millions and millions of people in this country that don’t want to work. I’m not saying that’s what [Romney] said. I think we have millions of people in this country that are out of work and are dependent on the government because they can’t find a job.”

If the above had been the GOP platform instead of the stirring up all of those hate groups; steretyping and caricature of minorities primarily, women etc., and even fellow whites{47%s} they'd have likely won. But they still don't get it. Rom Rom is still running with and spewing from the hate machine, according to some of his latest speeches. Not even his own Republicans who have tried can get him to STFU! LOL

November 15, 2012 at 5:12 p.m.
miraweb said...

Hey Jack - I found a new sticker for your car:

http://www.cafepress.com/dibble.727577015

November 15, 2012 at 5:17 p.m.
chatt_man said...

mira - I'm guessing those Republican members of the Senate committee had a wine tasting to go to.

November 15, 2012 at 5:34 p.m.
fairmon said...

Both parties have extreme groups. The republicans are called "tea party" and individuals are labeled tea party members whether they attend and participate in tea group meeting or not. The democrats have a similar extreme group but they have not yet been labeled unless the own whatever is the democrats extreme group. The DNC could have a name that group fund raiser, A few come to mind that would be descriptive but probably not politically correct.

Against abortion...you may be tea party.

Against illegal immigration...you may be tea party

Against a growing government...you may be tea party

Against higher taxes....you may be tea party

Against wasteful spending....you may be tea party

For smaller government...you may be a tea party crazy

For a strong defense.....you may be a tea party zealot

You want more people working and paying their own way....you are an extremist and no doubt a tea party activist.

You are forever banned from the OWS group. You are obviously not willing to provide me a living in the manner to which I would like to be accustomed. You are so unfeeling you would require those among us that are able to work and be self supporting to do so. Why not just make the wealthy support us, they can afford it, instead of providing me an opportunity to be wealthy when I prefer to not work?

November 15, 2012 at 5:36 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Miraweb Notes: "Most of the Republican members of a Senate committee investigating the terrorist attack at the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, Libya, skipped an classified briefing by administration officials on the incident Wednesday, CNN has learned. When CNN noted that McCain had missed a key meeting on a subject the senator has been intensely upset about, McCain said, "I'm upset that you keep badgering me."

Unfortunately, the Republicans have continued to put their party antics before their country. I think these people have become a national disgrace and dishonor us all. They’ve also conveniently forgotten the numerous attacks on U.S. Embassies And Consulates under the George W. Bush administration:

June 14, 2002, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan Suicide bomber kills 12 and injures 51.

Feb 20, 2003, international diplomatic compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
Truck bomb kills 17.

February 28, 2003, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan
 Gunmen on motorcycles killed two consulate guards.

July 30, 2004, U.S. embassy in Taskkent, Uzbekistan
Suicide bomber kills two.

December 6, 2004, U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
Militants stormed and occupied perimeter wall. Five killed, 10 wounded.

March 2, 2006, U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan
Suicide car bomber killed four, including a U.S. diplomate directly targeted by the assailants.

September 12, 2006, U.S. embassy in Damascus, Syria
Gunmen attacked embassy with grenades, automatic weapons, and a car bomb (though second truck bomb failed to detonate). One killed and 13 wounded.

January 12, 2007, U.S. embassy in Athens, Greece
 A rocket-propelled grenade was fired at the embassy building. No one was injured.

July 9, 2008, U.S. consulate in Istanbul, Turkey
 Armed men attacked consulate with pistols and shotguns. Three policemen killed.

March 18, 2008, U.S. embassy in Sana'a, Yemen
 Mortar attack misses embassy, hits nearby girls' school instead.

September 17, 2008, U.S. embassy in Sana'a, Yemen 
Militants dressed as policemen attacked the embassy with RPGs, rifles, grenades and car bombs. Six Yemeni soldiers and seven civilians were killed. Sixteen more were injured.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/09/12/1130950/-If-diplomatic-attacks-are-a-sign-of-weakness-Bush-was-the-weakest-of-all#

November 15, 2012 at 5:52 p.m.

Harp3339, don't sell the GOP short, they've labelled Democrats plenty. Some of them are found on these pages. Haven't you noticed?

But no, the Tea Party is an identifiable group and has articulated its positions, even in its own name. And they do have problems with their character, even if they'd rather have us believe them to be true patriots and their opposition illogical leeches and traitors while railing against how unfair it is that they are portrayed negatively?

And you are just as guilty of that offense, so why bother with the pretension of sanctimony? If you're going to going to criticize, at least do it without the obviously hypocritical pleas of unfair judgment.

Nucanuck, why ban when you won't accomplish much? Better to work with the results than pretend that'll work. Party-based proportional representation would accomplish a lot.

Timbo, the 2010 elections when the Republicans got less total turnout than in 2008, 2004, 2000? Noticing a pattern? Heck, you almost had less than when losing in 1992.

How do you have record margins when you only win because the other side didn't show up? And you're making that argument yourself to invalidate the results of this year, so...really, don't protest about staying home being a sign of support. You just invalidated that yourself.

Sorry, but your logic is lacking.

As usual.

Keep on doing what you are though, I can use your posts as recruiting tools.

November 15, 2012 at 6:12 p.m.
miraweb said...

I don't think it is a question of why so many crazy people vote with Republicans. There is plenty of crazy to go around in this country.

What I can't figure out is why so many crazy people seem to be leading the Republicans.

Is it really that hard to get good talent (which the GOP has) through the primaries?

Maybe it is because money is embedded in the process. Are folks just a lot less critical about a person's character and chops if they have access to a huge bank account?

Or is it when two or three big spenders walk into the ring, the real talent steps aside?

November 15, 2012 at 6:36 p.m.
ricardo said...

Teabaggers: The GOP can't win the general election with them, and they can't win the primaries without them. Hmmm, what to do?

November 15, 2012 at 6:50 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

miraweb said... Or is it when two or three big spenders walk into the ring, the real talent steps aside?

It was the poster boy for the Republican 10th District Senate race, Greg Vital, who attempted to dissuade others from running by saying "I've got more money than God!"

Fortunately, he didn't get a chance to increase his assets at the public expense.

November 15, 2012 at 6:52 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Daytonsdarwin said: “Tea Party members who agree with Todd Akin and Richard Mourdock's pre-election statements concerning rape, abortion, and God's will, please signify by posting "Aye."

Speaking of arrogant Republicans like Akin and Mourdock, I just read about a tragic incident involving a woman who was refused a life-saving abortion in Ireland:

"This is a Catholic country," was what Irish doctors told Savita Halappanavar after she learned she was miscarrying her pregnancy and asked for an abortion to avoid further complications.

She spent three days in agonizing pain, eventually shaking, vomiting and passing out. She again asked for an abortion and was refused, because the fetus still had a heartbeat.

Then she died.

She died of septicemia and E Coli. She died after three and a half days of excruciating pain. She died after repeatedly begging for an end to the pregnancy that was poisoning her. Her death would have been avoided if she had been given an abortion when she asked for it – when it was clear she was miscarrying, and that non-intervention would put her at risk.

But the fetus, which had no chance of survival, still had a heartbeat. Its right to life quite literally trumped hers.

US politicians and "pro-life" advocates like Joe Walsh will tell you that there are no circumstances under which women need abortions to avoid death or injury. . .

And the Republican party is trying to put laws similar to those in Ireland on the books in the United States – laws that would allow emergency room doctors to refuse to perform abortions, even in cases where the pregnant woman's life or health depends on terminating the pregnancy.

The GOP isn't exactly the most science-friendly or fact-reliant crowd in the world, but to them, women like Savita either don't exist or just don't matter."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/14/savita-halappanavar-medically-unnecessary-death?intcmp=239

November 15, 2012 at 7 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

tu_quoque said... "I know that you have collaborative backup and will produce it for your claim and would never be a POS rumormonger."

Here you go "Alter Boy."

"http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/20...

I like it when scumbags invoke God. It gives God so much credibility.

Apparently, God wasn't impressed with his money either.

November 15, 2012 at 7:19 p.m.
miraweb said...

Doctors make lousy priests - and priests make lousy doctors. That was a real tragedy in Ireland and never should have happened.

November 15, 2012 at 7:26 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tu_quoque says: "Nice list MountainLoon but here is the real test. Point out the attacks you listed that fit the relevant criteria."

Please, Tu_quoque. Before any possible comparison can be made you will need to provide the actual facts that back up your accusations. Indeed, the least you can do is to provide us with the testimony and notes from the recent classified Senate committee meeting investigating the attack at the U.S. consulate in Benghazi. Of course, you will have to figure out which Republicans actually showed up for the meeting to get this information since only three of the eight GOP members of the committee attended the two hour briefing.

November 15, 2012 at 7:33 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

mountainlaurel said... "When CNN noted that McCain had missed a key meeting on a subject the senator has been intensely upset about, McCain said, "I'm upset that you keep badgering me.""

Maybe McCain had a Savings and Loan to bailout, a defense contractor buying lunch, Blackwater or Halliburton called to caddy for them, or a lobbyist to make sweet, sweet, love to.

With political losers like McCain and Romney, Christian Nationalist Tea Baggers like Akin and Mourdock, hucksters like Huckabee and Judge Roy Moore, who needs the Comedy Channel?

November 15, 2012 at 7:33 p.m.
dude_abides said...

dayton... There's something you should know. Tu_ is a Gaytheist Republican. It doesn't believe in God. It rents members of it's own gender for 'romance.' Other than that, it's a conservative! Isn't that enigmatic? What a complex and puzzling beast, huh?

November 15, 2012 at 7:37 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Joe Walsh is creepier than Jimmy Swaggert. He didn't win re-election so maybe he has time to pay his child support that's been in arrears.

Good example of fatherly love for children.

Which god is laughing his ass off? There's about 4000 gods to choose from. I prefer the Gods in Red Bank. Pretty nice guy except when the wife burns his dinner. Then it's time to get out the stick and beat the wife and kiddies while telling them how much he loves them.

That God?

November 15, 2012 at 8:01 p.m.
Lr103 said...

tu_quoque said... Nice list MountainLoon but here is the real test. Point out the attacks you listed that fit the relevant criteria of President BullSh!t’s current F’up. How many did we know in advance that an attack was probable and not take appropriate actions to prevent or counter it? How many did the site staff ask for more security and were denied? How many had what little security they did have for the most point removed? How many had nearby rescue that was ordered not to respond? How many had the attack last long enough that military force could have saved at least some of those killed but was not employed? How many did the administration lie about the details of the attack to protect their own self interests at the polls? How many did the administration lie to the families to their faces as to why the victims died and what was being done in response? How many did the administration’s inaction embolden terrorists to slaughter additional American citizens at will?

According to DEMuG: "House Republicans cut the administration’s request for embassy security funding by $128 million in fiscal 2011 and $331 million in fiscal 2012....Last year, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned that Republicans’ proposed cuts to her department would be “detrimental to America’s national security” —a charge Republicans rejected."

"Ryan, Issa and other House Republicans voted for an amendment in 2009 to cut $1.2 billion from State operations, including funds for 300 more diplomatic security positions. Under Ryan’s budget, non-defense discretionary spending, which includes State Department funding, would be slashed nearly 20 percent in 2014, which would translate to more than $400 million in additional cuts to embassy security."

"That's the problem with budget cutting: it sounds great when you're thumping tubs on the campaign trail in front of adoring tea party crowds, but when the actual work of governing comes up, those cuts have to come from actual programs that do actual things. Like protecting our embassies."

Strange, Rom Rom so quickly jumped on the Benghazi attacks to use as leverage against the president while the assault on the embassy was still undweray. Couldn't wait. As if? As if? hmmmm ????

November 15, 2012 at 8:03 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Dude_ and Dayton. both skidmarks on the underpants of the left.

November 15, 2012 at 8:22 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tu_quoQue said: “So you have made the medical diagnosis remotely that it was the lack of an abortion and not medical malpractice or other complications.”

Well, Tu_quoque, quite a few people seem to be concerned about the incident including Ireland’s health services. I note they’re appointing an investigator:

“Ireland’s heath service is appointing an external investigator to head the inquiry into how an Indian woman died of blood poisoning after she was repeatedly refused an abortion in an Irish hospital.

Savita Halappanavar's husband, Praveen, said his wife asked for a termination in University Hospital Galway after being told her baby would not survive. He claimed she was refused a termination because medical staff at UHG believed there was still a foetal heartbeat even though his wife died in agony afterwards.

The Health Service Executive's national incident management team has confirmed it is investigating the 31-year-old dentist's death last month.

In a statement, the HSE said it was in the process of appointing an independent, external report in obstetrics and gynaecology to join its inquiry team.

On Thursday night candlelit vigils were held in memory of Halappanavar in Dublin, Galway, Cork and Limerick, and the Irish embassy in London was picketed. In the largest of the demonstrations, 2,000 people protested outside the Irish parliament over what they called the "political cowardice" of the country's leadership on the abortion issue.

A mass protest against Ireland's abortion ban is to be staged in Dublin on Saturday and there are calls for other Irish embassies across the EU to be picketed at the weekend.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/15/external-investigator-irish-abortion-death?intcmp=239

November 15, 2012 at 8:24 p.m.
degage said...

Lr103,are you saying , in2009 the republicans could pass anything? Forget that the house and senate was all super Dem and a republiacn couldn't get anything passed. They still can't get anything passed in the senate. Reid just refuses to bring anything to the floor for vote that comes from the house.Iwouldsay per Obama orders.

November 15, 2012 at 8:25 p.m.
dude_abides said...

tu_quoque said... "Try it Dud ... I know you want to and..."

Thanks, but I don't think I could overcome the coefficient of friction. Besides, I saw what Obama did to Romney, and there could be no topping that! Poor Mitt was "rent" asunder. LOL

November 15, 2012 at 8:39 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Jesus Christ, Jack_. WTF was that? tu_ got you worked up?

November 15, 2012 at 8:48 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

I think Jack's been in his mother's underwear drawers again.

November 15, 2012 at 9:06 p.m.
Lr103 said...

tu_quTOOTS said: That's very odd since he only addressed the riots that occurred in Egypt and the State Department's shameful apology for the fact that we have freedom of speech in this country.

POTUS News:Sept 12, 2012 Romney: "Romney had charged earlier today that the Obama administration's response to the attacks in which four Americans died was "disgraceful" and amounted to apologizing to the militants. But the Republican presidential candidate came under fire from both Obama and Republicans for the timing and the tenor of his remarks"

That's why the president suggested Rom Rom has a tendency of shooting first and aiming later.

November 15, 2012 at 9:19 p.m.

Nah, he had an aim in the first place, he just didn't check his weapon or the target area for bystanders.

The path to the White House was never through deceit.

November 15, 2012 at 9:39 p.m.
ricardo said...

daytonsdarwin said..."I think Jack's been sniffing his mother's drawers again."

November 15, 2012 at 10:08 p.m.
miraweb said...

TQQ - Every emergency room sees on a regular basis women who are miscarrying. A miscarriage becomes potentially life threatening when some of the tissue that was supporting the fetus, or the fetus itself, begins to die while it is still within the mother.

That dying tissue often becomes a source of infection that can develop into a blood infection, or septicemia.

There is no chance the baby will live.

There is a very high chance the mother will die.

Catholic hospitals in this country routinely treat this condition with a medical procedure called a "therapeutic abortion" that cleanly removes all remaining tissue from the womb. It is considered a different situation than an optional abortion both medically and morally.

In this country, failure to do so would be considered malpractice.

In the Ireland case, there was an exceptionally long delay before the procedure was performed. The mother developed a very serious blood infection and both died.

Irish hospital operate under a different standard that U.S. hospitals and in this case delayed the procedure far longer than would have happened here.

The situation is not uncommon. Emergency departments see these patients many times a week.

November 15, 2012 at 11:02 p.m.
miraweb said...

This was written today by an Irish author about the incident:

In The Origins of Totalitarianism, speaking of defences mounted by the perpetrators of atrocities during the Holocaust, Hannah Arendt says that adult citizens cannot obey. Children and animals can obey, but adults have the capacity to morally assess the actions that their sociopolitical systems demand of them.

Adults do not obey, they consent. And yes, the system might punish you for failing to carry out its evil will – for choosing to remove a dying, insensate foetus from the womb of a woman in agony who is begging you to do so – but fear of consequence does not absolve you.

To those doctors who continued to check for a heartbeat as Halappanavar deteriorated, this is also your fault.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/15/ireland-medieval-abortion-law-savita

November 15, 2012 at 11:15 p.m.
fairmon said...

hwtnb commented......

But no, the Tea Party is an identifiable group and has articulated its positions, even in its own name. And they do have problems with their character, even if they'd rather have us believe them to be true patriots and their opposition illogical leeches and traitors while railing against how unfair it is that they are portrayed negatively?

The question is why are they portrayed any more negative than the democrats or other republicans that are nuttier than fruit cakes? Leaches, liers and the aggrandizing self righteous gravitate to the democrat side while hypocrits and war mongers are prone to be attracted to the republican agenda.

November 15, 2012 at 11:32 p.m.
miraweb said...

Have you seen the hats? ={:-)

November 15, 2012 at 11:42 p.m.
fairmon said...

What do these countries have in common? United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait, Cayman Islands, Bahrain, Bermuda, Bahamas. UAE income per capita is the lowest at $48,200, Qatar is at $88,000 etc. etc.

None have an income tax due to oil exports and/or tourism. The major tax is social security ranging from 5% to 10% matched. Not a lot of people clamoring to move to these countries. My guess would be in some cases the cost of living, in others the lack of liberty and freedom which many Americans seem willing to give up while the cost of living and taxes increase.

November 15, 2012 at 11:47 p.m.
alprova said...

dude_abides wrote: "dayton... There's something you should know. Tu_ is a Gaytheist Republican. It doesn't believe in God. It rents members of it's own gender for 'romance.' Other than that, it's a conservative! Isn't that enigmatic? What a complex and puzzling beast, huh?"

:')

November 16, 2012 at 12:09 a.m.

harp3339, are you asking why they're portrayed more negatively?

Isn't that presuming that they are?

I don't agree with that presumption.

I do find many things I consider negative about the Tea Party, and I feel expressing that is quite important. I do not find myself impressed by the attempts by members of said group to protest such criticism by claiming that they are somehow persecuted.

I actually find that claim to be validating my opinions since they tend to try to convince me of that while showing their hypocrisy since they just finished some accuracy-deficient diatribe on the evils of Communist liberals or illegal minorities.

As for your second question, actually, a lot of people are moved to those countries.

As contract labor. Which tends not to include Americans, who recognize that for the shoddy bargain it is.

There are a fair number of American tourists though. Take that as you will.

November 16, 2012 at 1:02 a.m.
wrdrennan said...

We hope so, Clay. We hope so.

November 16, 2012 at 1:31 a.m.
alprova said...

Tu_quoque wrote: "AlBaby you be wanting some of that action?"

No thanks troll.

"If you want I'll strap it on and drive you home just like you Libtard boys like it."

Classy...and it leads me to wonder if a session of passion with you would include whips, chains, and coercion into the writing of bad checks.

Seek some help...for your own mental health.

November 16, 2012 at 3 a.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel and miraweb are like pit bulls, once they lock on to something they won't let go if it can be slanted to a negative against anything not advocated by the most liberal big spending democrat. It seems that in their view anyone concerned about deficits and debt are selfish and uncaring. Anyone making a profit are inconsiderate low lifes that should be risking their money to provide jobs not for a return on the investment. The libertarian agenda would cause them to have a seizure and convulsions.

November 16, 2012 at 4:07 a.m.
fairmon said...

The markets look to keep tumbling today, your shorts should keep coming down until you take them off as you watch the longs get drilled. This stock market jargon sounds as pornographic as the exchange between tu_q and alprova but it isn't.

November 16, 2012 at 4:42 a.m.
dude_abides said...

OMG. Now it's a woman again!

harp blames alprova for the tu_ exchange?

November 16, 2012 at 7:44 a.m.
fairmon said...

Hostess bakeries, makers of twinkies and other treats, is in chapter 11 bankruptcy. Hostess is expected to announce their closing next week and permanent termination of 18,500 employees. The company needed concessions from unions which the teamster union understood and agreed to but the bakers union will not accept the court approved plan leaving the company no choice other than to cease operating.

Hostess may just be the tip of the iceberg with the uncertainty out of D.C. such as temporary tax rates, the PPAHCA impact on individuals and businesses, plus the approaching debt ceiling stand off etc. These and the situation in Europe and the middle east are unsettling detriments to the economy. Many people are reluctant to make major purchases, businesses are hesitant to expand or hire, Business loans are more difficult with lenders in a very cautious mode. Either parties predictable agenda would be better than the present situation.

November 16, 2012 at 7:58 a.m.
fairmon said...

Is the tea party right? Probably not but the republican party as a whole would be wise to agree to every administration and democrat proposal made. Should the republicans be right in their assessment of doing that the country would crash into the wall and prove them right enabling them to be in control. If they learn they were wrong and the democrats not as wrong as perceived they could make the needed adjustment to their agenda and still be in the game.

November 16, 2012 at 8:06 a.m.
fairmon said...

dude_abides said...

harp blames alprova for the tu_ exchange?

No blame, but it takes two to have an exchange. Al's reference to chains, whips etc. in responding could make one wonder if he was fishing or hinting.....LMAO. (just kidding Al)

November 16, 2012 at 8:17 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Hostess bakeries, makers of twinkies and other treats, is in chapter 11 bankruptcy. Hostess is expected to announce their closing next week and permanent termination of 18,500 employees. The company needed concessions from unions which the teamster union understood and agreed to but the bakers union will not accept the court approved plan leaving the company no choice other than to cease operating.

Boy that Bakers's Union must really be proud. They really showed'em.

November 16, 2012 at 8:19 a.m.
fairmon said...

The market futures have turned up, do you know where your shorts are? It may be about time to take them off for a while and nibble on an APPl[e].

November 16, 2012 at 8:35 a.m.
fairmon said...

From CNBC...

Americans interested in getting the national debt crisis under control likely will have to endure cuts to popular programs like defense, Social Security — and the nationalized health insurance program known as Obamacare. That's the conclusion of Alan Simpson and Erskine Bowles, authors of the widely disseminated report commissioned to devise ways to unwind the $16 trillion national debt and $1 trillion-plus government budget deficits. Speaking in stark terms and folksy language, the duo laid out the dire reality of the situation.

The problem is especially apparent in health care, which they identified as one of five key areas where debt-reduction has to focus. Congress in 2010 passed President Barack Obama's national health care plan that will go into effect fully in 2014. "This baby is on automatic pilot," "It can't possibly succeed. There is no cost containment in this baby until down the road, and we know what will happen down the road — nothing."

In addition to health care, the other four targeted areas are defense, the tax code — Bowles called it "the most ineffective, inefficient, globally anti-competitive tax code that any man could dream of" — Social Security and compound interest on the debt. In defense, the U.S. spends more than the next 17 countries combined. "I think we've been disproportionately responsible for world peace and I don't think America can afford to be the world's policeman," Bowles said.

After getting mountainlaurel, miraweb and alprova's agreement the administration and congress may be wise to listen to this democrat and republican that do not hold and are not running for office.

November 16, 2012 at 8:59 a.m.
alprova said...

One has to wonder what is going on in the heads of union leaders who do not see the writing on the wall.

It's a sad thing to see Hostess liquidated, rather than for the 5,000 Baker's Union workers to keep their jobs by conceding to work for a little less. And there is no denying that they took 13,000 others down with them, who were willing to concede.

Hostess brands will be bought by somebody, but make no mistake about this one -- It is the fault of 5,000 union workers who refused to save their jobs and why it has played out this way.

In 1980, I too worked for a cloth mill that was facing financial difficulties. They called a meeting of all the employees, where the company laid it all out on a table. They opened the books and invited every single employee to see for themselves the fact that if wage concessions were not made, that the mill would close in 60 days.

The Union reps called a meeting of their own with the employees, where speaker after speaker convinced the workers that the mill was lying to them. The end result was a majority vote to not give the mill any concessions.

I shook my head, quit my job the day after that union meeting, and secured a new job. 45 days later, the mill ceased all operations without warning. They just shut the doors and laid 3,000 people off, many of whom had worked there for 20 years or more. Over the next year, I witnessed most of my former co-workers lose everything they had ever worked for. When unemployment ran out after six months, it got serious. There were no extensions offered by the State to anyone.

3,000 people in a town of 4,500 scrambling for non-existent jobs is a tough thing to witness. But in my opinion, most of them did it to themselves and I found it very hard to feel sorry for them.

Most of those dolts just rode out their unemployment, believing that the mill would reopen. It remains closed and completely empty to this very day.

There is no love lost between myself and unions. I find it very sad that people's intelligence and good sense goes into a total nosedive whenever they join a union.

November 16, 2012 at 9:03 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

"Is there any wonder (pardon the pun) that Big Labor is at a low point in membership and public support? The notion that it’s better to send 18,500 people to the unemployment lines and dissolve — not merely sell, but break up and eviscerate — a venerated company is the sort of zero-sum mentality that should send American workers fleeing from organized labor" -Jennifer Rubin

Exactly, Ms Rubin

November 16, 2012 at 9:10 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp, there is no question that defense spending needs to be cut, and deeply. We need to limit defense spending to the borders of our own nation.

The tax code is in serious need of a total overhaul, but my opinion my differ from yours as to what needs to be done.

First of all, the top tax rate, on incomes above $200,000 needs to rise to the rate it was before Bush cut it. The 15% rate needs to be made permanent.

Any and all tax breaks for the wealthy need to be gutted, with the exceptions of those extended to all Americans to offset normal living expenses.

Tax exemptions to businesses and corporations that have a healthy bottom line need to be taken away.

All income needs to be taxed at the same rates, according to whichever rate one falls into.

The above would be a good start.

ObamaCare, when fully implemented, will and should cause insurance rates to free-fall for everyone. Once the vast majority of Americans are insured, including the healthy, the revenue flowing into all of them will have a positive effect on every insurers bottom line.

This panicking by employers across the country is premature, senseless, and it will backfire on those who are flapping their wings now.

I read a story about a Denny's franchiser in Florida this morning, who is imposing a 5% surcharge on all restaurant tabs and cutting worker's hours below 30 hours a week, to avoid ObamaCare.

Why? If he cuts hours to prevent having to provide health insurance, why the need to impose the 5% surcharge? Health Care insurance exchanges will provide affordable options for coverage, and that will be the case for employers located in states that are refusing to set them up. The Gov't stands ready to offer them on a nationwide basis.

Uninformed people, even those smart enough to be in business, are acting very stupid and are shooting themselves in their feet. Rather than to inform themselves to the facts, or to consult the services of accountants who can set them straight and offer them sound advice and who can point them in the right direction, they would rather over-react to the hype and bad information going around out there.

Mitt Romney could have been a beacon of light, for he set up a very similar system of health care in his own state -- a system that is still in place and working for the residents of Massachusetts. But he chose to take the popular Republican take on ObamaCare, and attempted to wash his hands of RomneyCare.

With each passing day, Americans are waking up to the fact that ObamaCare is a good thing. Its popularity is rising. By the time Obama leaves office in January, 2017, ObamaCare will be one plank of his legacy.

November 16, 2012 at 9:35 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Leno: 'The Economy Is So Bad MSNBC Had To Lay Off 300 Obama Spokesmen'

November 16, 2012 at 10:08 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Petraeus testimony clearly indicates administration whitewash. Of course the press and you leftists on here will continue to give The Community Organizer a pass on this. I get that.

November 16, 2012 at 10:41 a.m.
miraweb said...

That must be why they showed the video of the attack in yesterday's meeting. You know - the one that the GOP Senators were too busy to get to.

Clearly, they are hiding something.

November 16, 2012 at 11:36 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Al, have you read Obamacare? I admit I have not and have some real reservations about it. My biggest problem with it is businesses having to abide by the rules or be fined, such as the requirement of contraceptives and abortion pills. Again, I am going on what I have heard not read but I know of several suits in the courts system at this moment in regards to this requirement. Don't you feel that your freedom of choice on this particular element is being taken away? I know you are big on freedom and rights so does this not bother you?

November 16, 2012 at 11:40 a.m.
miraweb said...

The law is easy to find. There are even summaries at the top of each section and an FAQ if you feel you aren't interested in every administrative detail.

One of interest is Title V:

The Act funds scholarships and loan repayment programs to increase the number of primary care physicians, nurses, physician assistants, mental health providers, and dentists in the areas of the country that need them most.

With a comprehensive approach focusing on retention and enhanced educational opportunities, the Act combats the critical nursing shortage. And through new incentives and recruitment, the Act increases the supply of public health professionals so that the United States is prepared for health emergencies.

The summaries and timelines are in the links in the yellow box to the left.

http://www.healthcare.gov/law/full/index.html

November 16, 2012 at 11:55 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...

thanks Miraweb... now just to find time to read it.

November 16, 2012 at 12:15 p.m.
miraweb said...

Always the hardest part of the job.

Why am I suddenly craving a Twinkie?

:)

November 16, 2012 at 12:17 p.m.

nurseforjustice, your freedom of a choice is as a patient, a recipient of healthcare services. Why should your boss/employer/company owner/church leader be allowed to preemptively deny you appropriate health care coverage for religious reasons?

See, the freedom to deny others is the only "freedom" being taken away by the law in this case.

You, as an individual, are free to avail or not avail yourself as you choose. For yourself.

Not for me.

Those lawsuits are attempts to take away a person's freedom of choice and give it to somebody who isn't even acting for medical reasons.

So really, who is for freedom?

alprova, regarding Hostess, I believe the executives at said for are vulture capitalists who have acquired the brand took some mighty high salary increases, and were always planning to liquidate.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304072004577323993512506050.html

November 16, 2012 at 12:39 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Petraeus testifies CIA's Libya talking points were changed, lawmaker says.

Who got to Susan Rice??? (I know...it's an ongoing investigation)

November 16, 2012 at 1:01 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Happy. I very much disagree with you. This country was founded on the freedom of choice. They were getting away from governmental intrusions on every part of their lives and businesses. I know of several businesses that don't want to participate in particularly this aspect of the law because of their moral beliefs. Birth control is not a right. It is a privilege. No matter how you spin this one you are wrong.

November 16, 2012 at 1:09 p.m.
Walden said...

Some comments by Senator Tom Coburn, MD (R-OK) regarding the dangers of Obamacare. Coburn is, by the way, an authority whose opinion on this matter we should all prefer over some third rate hack CPA residing in North Georgia.

"More than two years after the passage of Obamacare, the data overwhelmingly show the law will fail to achieve its core objectives of lowering costs and improving access. That, ironically, may have been the design. By making private insurance unaffordable for everyone, it will become available to no one. All that will be left is government-centered, government-run, single-payer health care.

Let’s look at the law’s promises that were rigged to fail.

First, supporters of the law said the law would bend the cost curve down and reduce health-insurance costs. Yet health-insurance premiums are increasing faster than before the law was passed and experts confirm costs will increase along with federal health spending.

Second, defenders of the law said the bill would massively extend health-insurance coverage. But in June the Supreme Court threw out the forced Medicaid expansion which the Congressional Budget Office originally estimated was responsible for half of new coverage under the law. And despite claims of increasing coverage, more Americans are without health coverage today than when President Obama took office.

November 16, 2012 at 1:14 p.m.
potcat said...

If i believed Al's story and i don't. He said,soon as my fellow Mill workers started considering Unions,I quit the day after and got another job. The Company was on the side of truth and the union Reps liars.

Al said, i find it sad that intelligence and good sense goes into a total nosedive whenever they join a union. Oh,so you are the one that gages intelligence and good sense, i don't think so. Who the f... died and made you the gatekeeper of intelligence on this thread or any other subject. You go to websites that give you information you want to hear, goverment and non profits sites,B S. Get off this site for at least half a day and read a book. Better yet, go educate and entertain your self at the same time by going to the History channel web site. It has the most informed and entertaining series, "The Men Who Built America". The segment, "When One Ends, Another Begins", might give you a tad bit of insight into Unions and why the American people so desperately needed them,jack Ass.

November 16, 2012 at 1:17 p.m.
Walden said...

More Coburn to come. Technical difficulties in posting the rest.

November 16, 2012 at 1:21 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

WOW!!!! too much pot, cat!

November 16, 2012 at 1:22 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

pot-cat: How dare you challenge Cliff Clavin....AKA Alpo?

November 16, 2012 at 1:27 p.m.
potcat said...

Really ,you think so? Assumptions and judgements, why am i not surprised.

May i ask the nurse, what exactly did i write that WOWED and made you think i had smoked pot??

November 16, 2012 at 1:35 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Took longer than I thought for left to break out the race card re Susan Rice. Today it's the "woman" card. Unfreakinbelievable.

November 16, 2012 at 1:36 p.m.
miraweb said...

Jack - by rep you mean Peter "We've got to profile these fellas" King (R-NY) who has made it his personal mission to do as much political damage to Susan Rice as he can before term limits boot him out as chair of the intelligence committee because of the flack he took for his racist hearing in 2011?

Is that the guy you mean?

November 16, 2012 at 1:47 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Well, potcat, just your name seems to scream too much pot. Almost every post you make would lead someone to believe your brain is influenced by something. But particularly your foul language in the above post said to someone only expressing a life lesson he has learned. He did not impose his beliefs on anyone but only expressed his opinion of the subject, of which he is very good at. And this is an opinion type of blog if I am not mistaken.

You can take or leave what I have said, makes no difference to me. I too am just expressing my opinion.

November 16, 2012 at 1:47 p.m.
miraweb said...

The fight between Peter "I don't care what factcheck says" King and Rice has absolutely nothing to do with Benghazi. He is a self-absorbed misogynistic old fart who is throwing his weight around in an inside the beltway temper tantrum.

November 16, 2012 at 1:57 p.m.
ibshame said...

Meghan McCain on her father's Republican Party:

"I’ve spent most of my adult life fighting for change from inside the Republican Party. We Republicans need to look at the future instead of living in the past. We have to learn from what the last two presidential elections have taught us. We must accept each other and the different opinions within the party instead of trying to cannibalize people that diverge from an arbitrary purity test. I refuse to let the extremists win. We can’t let the Tea Party bully us any longer. We can’t keep worrying about ultraconservative white male voters. At the end of the day, I still believe I’m on the right side of history, and we can’t let this party sink away. We can and we must evolve. I don’t know exactly how yet, but I for one am ready to spend the next four years helping us get there. And if we don’t move forward, adapt, and become relevant again, the Republican Party isn’t going to survive. It will just continue to alienate more moderate voters like myself. If I don’t see some changes in the next four years, I’m going to consider registering as an Independent in 2016."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/16/meghan-mccain-on-why-the-republican-party-needs-to-wake-up.html

Maybe she needs to tell her father some of this so he can get that loser's chip off his shoulder.

November 16, 2012 at 2 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Yawn.

November 16, 2012 at 2:10 p.m.

nurseforjustice, I see a bunch of platitudes and rhetoric, but nothing in what you said can address the fact that the people whose alleged freedoms you defend want to use their own power and authority to deny other people's choices with regards to their individual health care, with their reasoning based on their religious beliefs instead of objective concerns about healt. Can you please answer me why a boss should be allowed to decide for their employees, why you believe that freedom to deny the liberties of others due to one's own religious beliefs is so important?

You can keep trying to defend it as a freedom from governmental intrusion, but I see it for what it is. An attempt by a bunch of moralists to impose their will upon others in defiance of the very same freedoms you hypocritically purport to defend.

Here's what the government is doing to businesses: No, you can't deny your employees access to birth control. Sound medical evidence indicates the benefits of that access, and thus it is important that citizens be allowed to utilize it.

Here's what your supposed morally concerned businesses want to do: Deny the freedom of the employees to access birth control because they think that's what their God wants. (Or worse, in the case of the Blunt Amendment which basically gives the employer carte blanche to decide whatever they want is anathema to their religious beliefs and deny it.)

Tell me why you believe that latter must be protected as a matter of law.

Or do you think I'm so foolish to believe that this isn't about taking away the freedom of an employee by giving an employer the power to deny their employee's health care decisions? Or that some of the elements in question wouldn't outright criminalize contraceptives given the chance?

But hey, keep trying to spin it as defending the freedom of a bunch of religious zealots to dictate what healthcare people receive.

That'll fool some of the people.

Not me though.

Keep religion out of my health care.

Thanks in advance.

November 16, 2012 at 2:16 p.m.
fairmon said...

Happy bulbs belief is....

alprova, regarding Hostess, I believe the executives at said for are vulture capitalists who have acquired the brand took some mighty high salary increases, and were always planning to liquidate.

I think your assumptions are totally wrong. Salary employees have been reduced in number and took a 8% or better cut including the CEO. The teamsters union had agreed to the adjustments. It did sound like the CEO planned to correct the adjustment in a year or so if the company was successful. In spite of what you and mountainlaurel think there are some executives that are more honest than most in government positions and those executives do care about people while balancing needs of employees and with investors expectations.

I suspect union bosses influenced the bakers union employees by saying the company would give in, that the company really did not have a financial crisis. The union concern is they may get requests from other employers for concessions. Unions initially were important and did help the plight of workers. They have evolved to being as corrupt and self serving intent on protecting themselves first as many, not all, of the non-profit government leaches that claim to be necessary because they are serving people.

Alprova you seem confident someone will buy the company. Who and why would anyone do that? No one bought the still closed mill you sighted as a personal experience. Perhaps they can get a TVA job with good pay and benefits and a $12,000 annual bonus for doing what they are already paid to do. Another non-profit serving you similar to blue cross blue shield.

November 16, 2012 at 2:25 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

I never said religion one time. You are the only one bringing that up. I said, "morals". What you are describing as a right to birth control is absurd. You have the right to birth control now as a citizen of the USA. But to force your employer to give it to you is just plain wrong.

I have the right to a brand new car because as old as I am I should not be walking 20 miles a day to work and back. So for health reasons I need a new car. Should it be my employers responsibility to provide me with that car? I hope you said of course not, because it is not their responsiblity. You are confusing rights with privileges. But keep spinning tho. You are giving it the old college try I will give that to you. Hope everyone has a nice weekend.

November 16, 2012 at 2:30 p.m.
potcat said...

By brain is influenced by life not pot. As for foul language get over it. I expressed my opinion on what i felt was an untruthful and stupid statement on unions that arrogant al spewed on an opinion blog, get it??? My perspective on this subject is an opinion in which insulted me and many in my family, millions of workers before us and in 2012.

Nurse seems to believe everyone should be just alike or your brain is on drugs. How damn boring.

November 16, 2012 at 2:38 p.m.
fairmon said...

hwtnb said....

Keep religion out of my health care.

Purchase your own health care and there is no issue. Glad to if you will keep government out of my business other than local, state, federal labor laws and regulations regarding on the job safety and health and all the other laws affecting interstate commerce. How can a government that is nearing bankruptcy think they know what is best for a business or that they can manage a business successfully?

November 16, 2012 at 2:40 p.m.
ibshame said...

Here's a story about the election that will make your head spin. IF (AND THAT'S A BIG IF)TRUE, IT WOULD EXPLAIN TURDBLOSSOM'S MELTDOWN THAT NIGHT. LOL

"Karl Rove Loses Election After Being Checkmated By Cyber Sleuths?

Last month, we offered a million dollar reward for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone who rigged a federal election on November 6th. We urged computer experts to contact us with information about any election manipulation of the tabulation results.

We Received A Letter

On November 12th, we received a letter from “The Protectors,” apparently a group of white hat cyber sleuths, mentioning our reward and stating that two months ago, they began monitoring the “digital traffic of one Karl Rove, a disrespecter of the Rule of Law, knowing that he claimed to be Kingmaker while grifting vast wealth from barons who gladly handed him gold to anoint another King while looking the other way.”

“The Protectors” said that they had identified the digital structure of Rove’s operation and of ORCA, a Republican get out the vote software application. After finding open “doors” in the systems, they created a “password protected firewall” called “The Great Oz,” and installed it on servers that Rove planned to use on election night to re-route and change election results “from three states.”

The letter indicated that “ORCA Killer” was launched at 10am EST and “The Great Oz” at 8pm EST on November 6th. “The Protectors” watched as ORCA crashed and failed throughout Election Day. They watched as Rove’s computer techs tried 105 times to penetrate “The Great Oz” using different means and passwords.

Finally, they issued the following warning to Mr. Rove: don’t do it again or they would turn over the evidence to Wikileaks founder Julian Assange."

Read More:

http://occupyforaccountability.org/index.php?q=node/1075

November 16, 2012 at 2:49 p.m.

nurseforjustice, that's nice, you didn't mention something, but are you ignorant of the arguments being made on the side whose views you are expressing? Maybe you should check on their positions. It's in those lawsuits you're talking about, with groups claiming it's their religions freedom at stake. Not to mention numerous public statements. And I've found most people tend to believe that morals are derived from their religious beliefs, especially in regards to the use of contraceptives. Have you not noticed how many Catholic leaders are behind these suits? Can you produce one person who is making this argument while disavowing its religious connection? I'd be very surprised if you did. It doesn't change the existence of numerous others though, and you have chosen to express support for them. So you're going to have to live with their position. Besides I'm still going to be opposed to the employer making that decision for their employees regardless of how they arrived at their moral position.

And no, an employer isn't forced to give birth control to anybody. Unless perhaps they're a pharmacist. They're required to not deny access to birth control through the employer-based health insurance we primarily have in this country. Birth control is prescribed by a doctor, and dispensed by a pharmacist. The relationship the employer has is the paperwork since we have a system of health insurance in this country that is primarily tied to one's employer.

Don't like that? Then tell us how you want to change the system. I can see several possibilities that would take the responsibility of filing paperwork away from the employer. But absent that, that's the way most people get their health insurance in this country, and as such, the employer is in a position of authority and control over the parameters of the health care an employee receives. You have expressed support for this, as if it somehow gave the employer a necessary freedom. I don't care to give them the "freedom" to deny appropriate health care based on their morals, because I see that as unjustly and inappropriately taking away from others the freedom to make their own individual decision.

That's really all this is about, the right to tell other people what health care they can get. I support making that decision based on objective medical standards. Why do you support it being made based on religious strictures?

Keep spinning though, no matter how many silly examples you push, you still won't get away from the fact that the "freedom" you are pushing is one to deny other people their choice.

Oh, and BTW, that health insurance isn't free in the sense of a gift, it's part of the employee's compensation.

November 16, 2012 at 3:03 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said....

With each passing day, Americans are waking up to the fact that ObamaCare is a good thing. Its popularity is rising. By the time Obama leaves office in January, 2017, ObamaCare will be one plank of his legacy.

Alprova...you cannot imagine how much I hope you are right but having worked with those in the health care and insurance field for several years my fear is you are terribly wrong. It may well be his legacy but you may be wrong about why it will be. I guess, as Pelosi said, we will just have to pass it then wait and see. Remember the words if you like what you have you can keep it and you will not be affected. I and many I know are proof that is not correct. I don't doubt some idiot told him that because he doesn't have time and shouldn't need to have a thorough understanding of the ACT. He doesn't have any more time to be an expert on it than those congress members that didn't read it but criticized or praised it and voted by the party line without reading it.

You needed insurance and your state took the action that enabled you to have it. I do not blame or begrudge you or anyone else in a similar situation in the least. However, it was not necessary to make it so complex understanding is nearly impossible. It is not paid for now or in the future without major changes or cost to anyone with health care insurance. The premises are not correct but sound good.

November 16, 2012 at 3:04 p.m.

harp3339, first off, do you have a source for your claims regarding executive compensation at Hostess? I posted a link to the WSJ, you posted nothing but your own words. I wasn't making a bare assumption based on prior premises, thank you very much, but recounting what I have seen and read, and what I believe based on that reading.

Do note the difference.

And here's the link again:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304072004577323993512506050.html

And I agree with alprova, that somebody is likely to purchase it, as there's a high degree of value in the name of many Hostess products. Twinkies, for example, are an icon among many, and that has a high degree of value. Not nutritional, mind you, but that's another issue.

And as for the purchase your own health insurance...well, great, as soon as we can get away from the employer-based health care system we have in this country, that'll be a viable option. Until then, I don't see that as a reasonable option, so I'll have to insist on reforming the system first.

Until then, keep religion out of health care access, and out of my government as well. Actually, even after that, keep religion out of it. You can follow any religion you want, but don't make any decision for me.

But no, I can't and won't promise to keep government out of your business, because I don't know what your business is, and there's a lot of things where it turns out the government has an appropriate role, and no, the US government isn't nearing bankruptcy. Even if it were, you can't use that argument as a blind argument against regulation, because you know what?

There's many different people involved, not one singular person making any and all decisions. Some of them are unquestionably irresponsible (though we certainly will disagree about who they are, I remember you supporting Allen West, who it looks is less likely to return to office), but others are not.

But you are asking me to assume from the existence of a few bad ones that the whole is at fault.

I decline to do so. Yet you will keep doing so, won't you, while thinking I'm the one who is making that kind of assumption.

Besides, in this case, the government isn't making a decision what's best for a business, but what's best for the citizens as a whole. Those are different priorities, and sometimes they do not coincide.

What's best for General Motors, may not be what's best for the Country, and vice versa.

Also Pelosi was talking about the rampant duplicity and dis-ingenuity being talked about regarding the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. Sometimes you have to experience something in order for the emotional impact to be proven wrong. Shots, for example.

November 16, 2012 at 3:14 p.m.

BTW, anybody tempted to post a line complaining about long posts, try to refrain, or you'll just make yourself look bad.

November 16, 2012 at 3:30 p.m.
fairmon said...

hwtnb...

Some employers are setting up reimbuseable health spending accounts and depositing a nontaxsble amount comparable to what they are now spending per employee. The money goes in an account for each employee. The employee then decides and shops the level of health care they want and what they want to purchase then withdraw what is needed to cover their legitimate cost. This enables the employer to have a predictable cost, meet the AHCA requirements and enables the employee to decide if they want a cadilac policy or something less with high deductibles, co-pays etc. and if they want it with or without presription coverage. The employee could decide who they wanted the isurer to be, wow, more competion among insurers, can you imagine that? Remaining funds, if any, can be withdrawn to cover any elgible health care cost or rolled over to the next year. The government can require insurers to cover anything they want to but it gets mmployers out of trying to decide what they want or don't want to cover. It gets the employee out of the one shoe fits all approach some smaller employers take. That apporach may scare some that like having someone decide for them and telling them what is best, they do like having a big brother or nanny.

November 16, 2012 at 3:46 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

Happy, you said, ... that's nice, you didn't mention something, but are you ignorant of the arguments being made on the side whose views you are expressing?

Not ingnorant, just choosing my words carefully.

you said... And I've found most people tend to believe that morals are derived from their religious beliefs, especially in regards to the use of contraceptives.

Does that mean that Atheist are without morals? I know some on here that would argue a good case agains that one. While I do agree with you that most of our basic laws and morals did come from the Bible, there are Atheist that are basically good people as well. I have never found lkeithlu to be amoral even tho we disagree on some issues. She is just one I think of at this time.

you said...Can you produce one person who is making this argument while disavowing its religious connection?

Nope, never intended to.

You said... I can see several possibilities that would take the responsibility of filing paperwork away from the employer. But absent that, that's the way most people get their health insurance in this country, and as such, the employer is in a position of authority and control over the parameters of the health care an employee receives.

As you stated, the employer IS in the position of authority. Again, the whole premise of this country's founding is this type of freedom. You are still confusing right to medical care with privilege. Some of the companies in the lawsuits are saying they will have to close their doors because they will not go against their morals, religious or non. So that will cause unemployment to rise, less taxes being paid because of this so then who will pay for these people's healthcare? You and I will when they go on the government teet for it.

There is so much more we could argue about but I belive you and I will never see eye to eye. So I am thru arguing with you. Frankly I could get a better arguement out of my 10 yr old.

November 16, 2012 at 4:05 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

"Well, potcat, just your name seems to scream too much pot.--nurseforjustice"

You are the nurse. However, I think a couple of the regular contributors to this forum might benefit from a couple of tokes. They already have dulled senses and a heaping helping of paranoia, so where's the harm? Colorado, rocky mountain high, is beautiful this time of year.

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me." --Hunter S. Thompson

November 16, 2012 at 4:13 p.m.
nurseforjustice said...

that last comment was a little ugly and so far we have been very amicable and I would like to keep it that way. My apologies.

November 16, 2012 at 4:14 p.m.
GratefulDawg said...

"BTW, anybody tempted to post a line complaining about long posts, try to refrain, or you'll just make yourself look bad. --happywithnewbulbs"

It's not the size of the post, it's the motion of the notion.

November 16, 2012 at 4:16 p.m.
fairmon said...

happy....

Thanks for the link the article regarding hostess said creditors were speculating that management may have increased salaries instead of paying for performance. Not unexpected as creditors will and should do all they can to gain the judges favor and recover as much as possible in the divestiture. It doesn't mention capital investors moving in, borrowing and investing in an effort to have a viable business or to make a windfall profit. I will look again to be sure I read all of it. I think the CEO has been there a while and has guided them through some tough times before. People seem to respond to and trust him except some of the bakers union members who are possible getting bad advice from their leadership.

November 16, 2012 at 4:18 p.m.

harp3339, except that option isn't acceptable to the employers who are aghast at the idea of funding contraceptives, which is the problem at hand. Having the option to choose between a half-dozen insurance companies selected by an employer who put them on the list due to their moral beliefs is not solving that issue.

If you wish to implement this system in such a way as to accommodate my requires, I won't necessarily object to it, but they have said they do.

nurseforjustice, maybe you should take time to choose your words even carefully, since you just put some words in my mouth. I never said anything regarding the Bible being the origin of our basic laws and morals, I merely expressed the position I observed in others, in particular those who you are defending. If you were unaware that their objections were founded upon their religious beliefs, I strongly suggest you familiarize yourself with their court filings.

It's at the core of their objections.

And yes, the employer is in the position of authority. That's the problem, as it gives them the capacity to make choices for others. I do not believe in their right to use that authority to deny individual's choice in regards to their health care based upon religious or other moral convictions.

If they want to close their doors, that's their choice, for their business and their operations, as they are free to act as they wish for themselves. Subject to any contracts or obligations they have. If they are providing a useful economic service, then somebody else can take their place, and it's no net loss to the economy. I don't see this downward spiral of despair you envision as resulting from it, any disruption will be temporary, not permanent.

They can take their marbles and go home, I will not give them the authority to decide for other individuals what health care those individuals receive though, not based on their religious scruples, any more than I would give an employer authority to decide a person's marriage, or how they raise their children, or anything else you care to name.

It's much like the alleged freedom to contract that was used to justify racial discrimination in housing deeds. Nothing more than an attempt to control others in the name of a false liberty.

You may not like that the argument invalidates yours, but the petty comparisons? They say something about your character, not mine.

additional: Thank you for recognizing your last words there were inappropriate, I appreciate you doing so.

November 16, 2012 at 4:33 p.m.

harp3339, the current CEO of Hostess Brands is Gregory Rayburn, and took the job in March.

http://www.vendingtimes.net/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=EB79A487112B48A296B38C81345C8C7F&nm=Vending+Features&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&tier=4&id=D34F7969B2434C9E9B8E1C21D92BCB88

He may have guided some companies through some tough times, but I wouldn't say he's been there a while, no.

November 16, 2012 at 4:42 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Meghan McCain leaving the Repubs, huh? They must be devastated.

November 16, 2012 at 6:12 p.m.
alprova said...

Potcat wrote: "If i believed Al's story and i don't. He said,soon as my fellow Mill workers started considering Unions,I quit the day after and got another job. The Company was on the side of truth and the union Reps liars."

Go back and read what I wrote. I stated clearly that following a vote against wage concessions, I quit and found another job.

Clearly, the union reps were lying, for the mill closed its doors 45 days after that meeting. Maybe you know of a good reason why a business guilty of lying to its employees about financial difficulties would shut the doors tight for 32 years.

"Al said, i find it sad that intelligence and good sense goes into a total nosedive whenever they join a union. Oh,so you are the one that gages intelligence and good sense, i don't think so."

5,000 employees of Hostess voted themselves out of a job. What possible level of intelligence or good sense can you derive from that?

"Who the f... died and made you the gatekeeper of intelligence on this thread or any other subject."

Who died? I dunno. I'm a free man and an American just like you. I'm allowed to offer my opinions just like everyone else too.

If you have some specific disagreement with my opinion, by all means offer it and why it is that you disagree with me.

"You go to websites that give you information you want to hear, goverment and non profits sites,B S."

I think even you know better than that.

"Get off this site for at least half a day and read a book."

I have a very fine library in my home. I cannot fathom what kind of books that I could read that would alter my opinion about unionism.

"Better yet, go educate and entertain your self at the same time by going to the History channel web site. It has the most informed and entertaining series, "The Men Who Built America". The segment, "When One Ends, Another Begins", might give you a tad bit of insight into Unions and why the American people so desperately needed them,jack Ass."

I've never, ever stated that unions did not have their place in this nation. The problem has always been that once unions get a taste of power, then the workers start to strangle the throats of the companies they work for. There are several examples of unions that have decimated many companies through their incessant demands.

That kind of behavior is the very reason why unions are going to disappear entirely if people don't wake the heck up.

November 16, 2012 at 7:54 p.m.
alprova said...

HWNB wrote: "Alprova you seem confident someone will buy the company. Who and why would anyone do that?"

Who? Any number of non-union bakers will want to buy the company and produce their popular products at a competitive price without the threat of union workers sucking the life out of them.

There are many big bakeries out there who do not have union workers, that will be very willing to purchase the Hostess name.

The Hostess name and their line of goods will survive. I am rather confident of that.

November 16, 2012 at 8:04 p.m.

Um, alprova, that's harp3339's question, not mine.

We are different people. Very different.

I think liquidation was inevitable though, why keep the contracts when what's valuable is the name, rather than the resources to produce the product?

But who sucked the life out of the company? That's a good question.

November 16, 2012 at 8:16 p.m.
fairmon said...

miraweb said....

The Act funds scholarships and loan repayment programs to increase the number of primary care physicians, nurses, physician assistants, mental health providers, and dentists in the areas of the country that need them most.

With a comprehensive approach focusing on retention and enhanced educational opportunities, the Act combats the critical nursing shortage. And through new incentives and recruitment, the Act increases the supply of public health professionals so that the United States is prepared for health emergencies.

miraweb that is a wonderful thing about the PPAHCA it goes beyond insurance. All that funding is wonderful but there is no detail about how and from where all that funding will come from......uh oh here it comes again. It may be that Obamacare is like Benghazi, still under investigation with some details withheld for security purposes.

Those that pushed it through would amputate a finger by removing one joint at a time.....I know it is going to be painful so quit lying to me and tell me it is going to cost the heck out of me so suck it up and pay up...I get madder than hell every time I see one of those lying a-holes talking about how it won't do anything except insure 30 million more people without costing anything! It will and all temporary tax rates need to expire, yours ane mine included plus abolish the thousands of pages of deductions used primarily be the wealthy. I really don't want to help pay for your house, your kids, your energy saving purchases, your electric car or any other vote buying deductions people get. Set the tax rates and every butt with an income pays that rate for their income level.

November 16, 2012 at 8:46 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said....

There are many big bakeries out there that will be very willing to purchase the Hostess name. The Hostess name and their line of goods will survive. I am rather confident of that.

I agree with that, the name has value and can be sold to help pay their creditors. I interpreted your prior statement to mean some idiot would pay to take over a business in the condition this one is. Only the government would do that and I don't think it will happen in this case, they can't muster the support. I heard a phone interview of the bakers union VP on the news and It became clear how this situation developed and cost 18,500 people a job. He sounded like a Hoffa Lawyer. He sounded like that old I am from the government and here to help you so trust me line.......

November 16, 2012 at 8:59 p.m.
fairmon said...

happywithnewbulbs said...

I think liquidation was inevitable though, why keep the contracts when what's valuable is the name, rather than the resources to produce the product?

But who sucked the life out of the company" That is a good question.

happy...the bakery grave yard is huge. It is a good question if you think that is the only reason businesses fail. In a capitalist world it can be competition, a better work force, better locations including being in a business friendly state.

November 16, 2012 at 9:10 p.m.

All of those things would count as sucking the life out of a company.

Because my language? That's not a reason why a company fails, that's just a description of a company failing. Was it too poetic for you?

November 16, 2012 at 9:45 p.m.
fairmon said...

alpeova said...

The problem has always been that once unions get a taste of power, then the workers start to strangle the throats of the companies they work for. There are several examples of unions that have decimated many companies through their incessant demands.

A correlation could be when people can vote themselves wealth from the public coffer as we may have just witnessed. Entitlements, deductions, subsidies and other political favors result from people demanding them and politicians agreeing to them. This is similar to excessive union demands agreed to by gutless management destroying a company. When companies do that and their cost increases the consumer of their product or service pays for it or in this case becomes no longer available.

November 16, 2012 at 11:50 p.m.
alprova said...

HWNB wrote: "Um, alprova, that's harp3339's question, not mine."

Oops. Sorry. You two were going back and forth so much that I lost track of who said what.

"We are different people. Very different."

Yep.

"I think liquidation was inevitable though, why keep the contracts when what's valuable is the name, rather than the resources to produce the product?"

Agreed.

"But who sucked the life out of the company? That's a good question."

Well, given that they are currently owned and managed by two Vulture Capitalist firms and unions are involved, I'd say it was a little of both, but the final nail in the coffin appears to have been hammered in by the Baker's Union, which urged it's members to take an extremely stupid chance by creating a Mexican standoff that bit them on the butt.

November 17, 2012 at 12:52 a.m.
fairmon said...

hwtnb.... I finally found the information I had been looking for. How will any investor including venture capitalist investing in Hostess be able to recover their investment? How will they be able to make a profit on their investment? Six CEOs in eight years is a clue that the company may not have been well managed. The bankruptcy judge following the normal distribution of money process after the divestiture of all assets typically means creditors will receive some amount significantly less than each dollar owed. Share holders of common shares will likely get nothing. An investigation and understanding of salary adjustments with the CEO being paid over 2 million annually does appear to be appropriate.

November 17, 2012 at 3:40 a.m.
GameOn said...

Vulture Capitalist and Vulture Unions are a recipe for disaster. In this case, the Ding Dongs lead the Twinkies to the unemployment line.

November 17, 2012 at 6:39 a.m.
patriot1 said...

I saw a comment somewhere that "the parasite has killed the Hostess" that pretty much sums it up

November 17, 2012 at 7:37 a.m.
fairmon said...

harp3339, except that option isn't acceptable to the employers who are aghast at the idea of funding contraceptives, which is the problem at hand. Having the option to choose between a half-dozen insurance companies selected by an employer who put them on the list due to their moral beliefs is not solving that issue.

happy...I failed to make it clear, once funds are deposited the employer has no need for further involvement in employee health care decisions. The employee has the option and responsibility of selecting their plan and who their insurer will be. The employee can withdraw funds from the account for premiums reimbursement or other legitimate health care expenses. The employer has no need or reason to know the details of the employee decision. A health care reimbursement account (HRA) is similar to but different from a health care savings account (HSA). The HRA is primarily used by employers that provide employee health care cost assistance that is no more than the current $2500 per year limit before becoming reportable income. Increasing this maximum with the employer counting it as a cost to the business would allow more people to have control over their personal health care decisions.

For profit employers have much more incentive than nonprofits and governments to contain and have predictable employee health care cost. Unfortunately the government decision makers are immune to the pain they inflict on private employers.

November 17, 2012 at 8:06 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "Share holders of common shares will likely get nothing. An investigation and understanding of salary adjustments with the CEO being paid over 2 million annually does appear to be appropriate."

To the best of my knowledge, Hostess does not have any shareholders. It's privately owned.

November 17, 2012 at 8:14 a.m.
fairmon said...

Turn out the lights the party's over. Left over tea becomes cloudy and bitter, might as well throw it out and make some lemonade.

November 17, 2012 at 8:21 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

To the best of my knowledge, Hostess does not have any shareholders. It's privately owned.

You are right.

November 17, 2012 at 8:42 a.m.
nurseforjustice said...
November 17, 2012 at 9:22 a.m.
dude_abides said...

If you conservatives don't start listening to reason around here, I am going to draw up Articles of Secession from this site. Then you'll be sorry. I only require one signature, and I have an itchy mouse finger. I know, you're all thinking "don't do it, dude! You're talking crazy up in here! This will achieve nothing!" Well, I don't care. I am mad, disappointed and bitter. I will straight storm outta here and form my own forum where you either agree with me or I will re-secede! Maybe we should ALL secede... no, that would be stupid since there would be nothing to secede from... well, that hasn't stopped the petition signers in all 50 states, so...

November 17, 2012 at 9:23 a.m.
fairmon said...

seceding is an excellent example of be careful what you ask or wish for. The official government response to all secesionist could be free transportation to north Mexico (Texas) then allow secession of that one state after removing all federal tax payer funded or owned assets.

November 17, 2012 at 9:48 a.m.
fairmon said...

Nancy Pelosi is afflicted with egotism...a serious disease that many in politics develop. Does it result from exposure, their environment? The specific cause is undetrmined but could be some are less immune than others or there could be multiple causes. The strange thing is it makes everyone exposed to them sick except the person that has it. They are not aware of their illness and feel perfectly fine with it. Donald Trump has a case comparable to Pelosi's.

November 17, 2012 at 9:54 a.m.

alprova, I think those Vulture Capitalists firms you mention were seeking more and more ways to push things, till they got so bad nobody could fix it.

harp3339, I'm quite aware of your intention, but you don't seem to be aware that YOUR compromise is not acceptable to the groups with the moral agenda. However you wish to try to skirt it, they do not find it acceptable at all. Full stop.

And actually, government decision makers are not immune (we have these things called elections where the public can act), nor are they so thoughtless or inconsiderate as to ignore it. But sometimes, sometimes they have priorities that trump the desired cost-savings a private employer may wish for their own benefit.

It's terrible, isn't it? The government has obligations to care about besides the bottom line of profit seekers. But don't pretend that they don't care about the costs of regulations or laws. You can read those reports as part of the regulation passing, you can see them at the end of ballot referendums, and more. There's a reason for that. Because it's part of their job to care.

nurseforjustice, prove what? The existence of these groups? It wasn't in dispute. And if you notice, it's clearly framed as a religious issue.

And you know what? Another judge has ruled differently.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/10/03/50930.htm

November 17, 2012 at 9:59 a.m.
fairmon said...

Happy said...government decision makers are not immune (we have these things called elections where the public can act), nor are they so thoughtless or inconsiderate as to ignore it. But sometimes, sometimes they have priorities that trump the desired cost-savings a private employer may wish for their own benefit.

Elections are one reason for their immunity to the pain they inflict on some, their priorities are obvious. Any individual that believes a politician or government worker truly gives a twit about them, other than their vote, or anything beyond that other than their self preservation in their position is sadly mistaken.

In my opinion of course...

November 17, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.

harp3339? Elections are one reason for their immunity? Actually, no that's just the opposite. That would be the point.

But if you think that people in general are so lacking in compassion or concern, I feel sorry for your cynicism, but I note that the same argument would apply regardless of public or private employment.

Me? I prefer to deal with people who I believe aren't like that, and while I may be naive or optimistic, I don't believe all people are. Some are, but not all. And I hope not most. Too many, yes, I fear that, but I can hope it's not most.

November 17, 2012 at 10:16 a.m.
fairmon said...

harp3339, I'm quite aware of your intention, but you don't seem to be aware that YOUR compromise is not acceptable to the groups with the moral agenda. However you wish to try to skirt it, they do not find it acceptable at all. Full stop.

happy...how can you know that when the government does not enable them to exercise that option if they currently provide more than $2500 per year to pay the employees health care cost. There may be some that try to limit the employees choice but why would they?

I personally don't think the government has any business dictating to businesses anything involving employee health care cost or any other benefit. I have no problem making free birth control of any type available that are easily accessible to any willing user. Mail them to the home if needed, sign for them at no cost at the pharmacy. Whatever it takes to slow down proliferation of the next generation of the hard core unemployed.

November 17, 2012 at 10:21 a.m.
fairmon said...

Governments and the tea party have one thing in common. They want to impose upon people their personal views of what the correct social agenda and behavior is.

November 17, 2012 at 10:27 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Nurseforjustice says: "This article helps to prove what I was trying to say yesterday."

Good grief. . . One can only wonder what’s next with so called “religious” employers.

Will Jehovah Witness employers be allowed to prevent health insurance companies from including and covering the cost of obtaining a blood transfusion? . . Will Jewish employers be able to require their male employees to be circumcised?

Yikes. . . Will “religious employers” be able to deny their employees a payroll check because their employees might “pay cash” for something that offends the employer?

Don't these people have any respect for the right their employees to make their own choices?

November 17, 2012 at 10:27 a.m.
fairmon said...

happy...

But if you think that people in general are so lacking in compassion or concern, I feel sorry for your cynicism, but I note that the same argument would apply regardless of public or private employment

No doubt we have different experiences and mental maps. The vast majority of people are compassionate, caring and will help neighbors and others across the country in times of distress. People, including most employers, are considerate and kind hearted. Governments have no heart or soul and if they did too many would sell their soul to the devil to stay in office.

November 17, 2012 at 10:44 a.m.

harp3339, I've read their statements, they've made it quite clear in their legal filings and interviews. They are quite adamantly opposed to that kind of compromise.

And I personally think that any government which neglects its due and appropriate responsibilities regarding the health of its citizens is not fulfilling its duty to the public. I would be quite happy taking the role outside of any involvement with any given business though. And people who are upset at the government allowing contraceptives can get in line behind those upset at war-fighting, the death penalty, and other actions.

And no, I don't concur with your perception of the government, in fact I've found the opposite trend to be the case, that the people who would proverbially sell their soul for gain are more common in the private sphere. Including the religious. Actually, sometimes especially the religious.

I don't, however, believe in a literal soul-selling process, so do understand that's just a metaphor to describe what's really going on.

mountainlaurel, that would be permitted under the Blunt Amendment.

November 17, 2012 at 10:59 a.m.
fairmon said...

happy said...

I don't, however, believe in a literal soul-selling process, so do understand that's just a metaphor to describe what's really going on.

We agree totally it is strictly a metaphor. Your perception of government and mine appear to be essentially opposite, both likely for rood reason. Kruschev may have been right when he made so many Americans mad after a visit to this country by saying something like...the American political process cannot work, they will destroy themselves from within. No, we are not there, not close, but if governments keep growing and more people become dependent we may get there.

Have you ever been responsible and accountable for assuring a large for profit business or a sizeable portion of a large business is profitable? Have you ever had to keep a balance between the business, employees, share holders and other stake holders? Or, are you one of those people that easily say I understand, I share your pain without having experienced or felt it?

November 17, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
fairmon said...

cynic or realist depends on who is making the observation.

November 17, 2012 at 11:49 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “People, including most employers, are considerate and kind hearted. Governments have no heart or soul and if they did too many would sell their soul to the devil to stay in office.”

I believe you’re getting carried away with your anti government rhetoric, Harp3339. Employers and governments are both established by people and as we all know some people demonstrate more integrity, wisdom, compassion, responsibility, and fairness than other people. To claim individuals involved in business have more heart and soul than individuals involved in government is silly. If this were the case, scenarios like this one wouldn’t be in the news:

“British oil giant BP pleaded guilty Thursday to more than a dozen felony charges related to the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil spill, including manslaughter and obstruction of justice. The deal will cost the company $4.5 billion, and immunize BP from further criminal prosecution over the disaster.

But while BP's corporate criminal liability may be settled, three BP employees now face federal indictments for their role in the spill that may put them behind bars for years. More indictments may follow, Attorney General Eric Holder said in a press conference Thursday. . .

Indicted were two former BP rig managers, Donald Vidrine, 65, and Robert Kaluza, 62, who were charged with 22 counts of manslaughter for negligence that led to the deaths of 11 workers on the doomed Deepwater Horizon rig. David Rainey, 58, a former BP vice president, was charged with lying to Congress and to federal officials about the size of the leak from the company's runaway well.

. . . In its plea, BP said that a "former vice president" was guilty of providing false information and withholding documents from Congress about the size of the leak. It also said the "proximate cause" of the 11 deaths on the Deepwater Horizon rig was negligence by the rig's well site leaders, Vidrine and Kaluza.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/bp-criminal-plea-indicted_n_2147070.html?utm_hp_ref=green

November 17, 2012 at 11:51 a.m.
MTJohn said...

harp3339 said..."Governments and the tea party have one thing in common. They want to impose upon people their personal views of what the correct social agenda and behavior is."

Harp - government and, for that matter, the tea party are impersonal non-entities. It is the people within those institutions that wish to impose their personal views. And, while that criticism is correct for the tea party, I do not think it is correct to suggest that of our government. After all, based on the Constitution, the government in this country is all of us, as in We, the People. That said, I would agree that some folks whom we have elected to high office are more interested in self-service than in public service. However, I do not think that is a legitimate criticism of the typical public servant.

November 17, 2012 at 11:53 a.m.

harp3339, that would be what the average cynic believes, that they are the ones with clear-eyed vision.

Sometimes they don't see their own self-imposed blindness.

I'm not afraid of the path the country is currently traveling, I'm far more concerned with the ideals of the cynics who want to go their way which I find to be far more treacherous.

You know how I think America would be destroyed? By giving in to the people with your attitude, or the ones willing to express it even though they're just using it for their own exploitation and gain. That's my cynicism showing, perhaps.

Then again, by some philosophical bents, America will be destroyed by its own change. We all destroy ourselves and make ourselves anew with every act. This isn't a bad thing.

Maybe I should say how America would be despoiled instead.

November 17, 2012 at 12:08 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

"A healthy level of distrust for all government and special interests is always the best policy."

That includes the special interests of orthodox religions, not limited to but including Muslim fanatics, Christian fanatics, Zionists, and Scientologists.

November 17, 2012 at 12:46 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

....and fanatical atheists.

November 17, 2012 at 2:39 p.m.
dude_abides said...

...like tu_quoque.

November 17, 2012 at 2:54 p.m.
ricardo said...

...and jonross and jack-dennis

November 17, 2012 at 3:01 p.m.
jesse said...

All "TRUE BELIEVERS" of whatever ilk!

November 17, 2012 at 3:23 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Jack_Dennis said...

"....and fanatical atheists."

I dare say you're a fanatical atheist as far as anyone else's "god" is concerned.

Waiting for proof of god, gods, demons, angels, Tooth Fairy, leprechauns. . .

The difference is as an atheist, I'm open for proof as opposed to true believers who have no proof, only faith. If you have proof, there's no need for faith.

I'm certainly able to change my mind with evidence, but not on illogical superstitions and ghost stories.

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof." Christopher Hitchens

November 17, 2012 at 3:53 p.m.
dude_abides said...

What a great time to be alive in this vibrant and diverse country! Fascists on the run, Mitt 'The Mayor of Whoville' Romney a mere footnote, all the rabid red state haters held at bay, baying at the moon like coyotes on crack, McCain and Graham toning down their BS, a freshly minted mandate in the President's pocket, it's time to take some sorry a$$es to the woodshed.

November 17, 2012 at 4:29 p.m.
ricardo said...

Yes indeed dude. It's a great time to be a Democrat! Radical, extremist teabagging was just a passing fad.

November 17, 2012 at 4:37 p.m.
degage said...

Dude, I just found out about Obamas aides owing almost a million in back taxes and 413 Epa employees that owe 19 million in back taxes also the tax court has 5 employees that owe 62,498in back taxes. Seems Obama wants everyone to pay their fair share except the dems that work for him.Maybe we should take Obamas buddies to the woodshed. This all came from ABC awhile back but was brushed under the rug to so Obama wouldn't look bad.

November 17, 2012 at 4:38 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Dayton123: Yeah, Chris Hitchens is a great source.

November 17, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Jack_Dennis said...

"Dayton123: Yeah, Chris Hitchens is a great source."

That might be the first intelligent thing you've ever said.

I'll take the likes of Christopher Hitchens, Carl Sagan, and Thomas Huxley over St. Paul, Billy Graham, and Mike Hucabee anytime.

November 17, 2012 at 5:33 p.m.
dude_abides said...

degage said... "This all came from ABC awhile back..."

Yes, a while back as in January 27, 2012! LOL

I guess you'll be reporting to us about Benghazi sometime next fall!

November 17, 2012 at 6:18 p.m.
degage said...

So right Dude,It was mentioned once then all got quiet,didn't want to much to be out there while the boss was talking about fair share. I just noticed it today so where has the media been all these months.

About Benghazi, that is a hot potato. Obama is right in the middle of sh-t on that one. But then you libs give him a pass on everything. He was to busy campaigning to bother with something like that. Off to a fund raiser, that is the important thing.

November 17, 2012 at 6:35 p.m.
dude_abides said...

What do you think, maybe $450 million and 2 or three years spent trying to find something on Obama? Does that seem about right? I know how bad you guys want him gone. You've all seceded from sanity.

November 17, 2012 at 6:51 p.m.
tipper said...

Here's how it will go. The Republican Party will jetison the Tea Party to remain a viable party. Write it down.

November 17, 2012 at 7:16 p.m.
degage said...

It is no secret I think Obamas agenda sucks. You libs don't seem to understand some people just don't want socialism and that is exactly what I think Obama is about. He makes no bones about telling us we should redistribute. He pits one group against another to futher his power. The Progressives are all about the power to control the masses. You should read Sal Alinskys book.

November 17, 2012 at 8:44 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp2229 said: “mountainlaurel and miraweb are like pit bulls, once they lock on to something they won't let go if it can be slanted to a negative against anything not advocated by the most liberal big spending democrat. . . The libertarian agenda would cause them to have a seizure and convulsions.

Is this your way of defending the Republican litmus test again, Harp3339? I must say for someone who claims to be a Libertarian you sure spend a lot of time on this board defending the Grand Old Party of litmus tests. Since so many GOP politicians are trying to force their alleged religious beliefs onto the women in this country, I think the tragic story of Savita Halappanavar is an important topic for discussion. Speaking of which I note that thousands and thousands of people attended a candlelight vigil expressing their concerns:

”Thousands of people attended candlelight vigils in Dublin, Galway, Kilkenny, Carlow and London this evening to demand the Government legislate on abortion following the death of Savita Halappanavar.

Beginning at the Garden of Remembrance, the Dublin march crossed O’Connell Bridge and snaked its way towards Dáil Eireann.

It was headed by a giant banner which read “Never Again”, adorned with images of the 31-year-old Indian dentist.

Organisers of the Dublin march said about 20,000 people had turned out, but a Garda spokeswoman said they estimated the figure to be between 10,000 and 12,000.

“Twenty years is far too long; ignoring women’s rights is wrong,” bellowed from a megaphone at the front of the procession. Loud, angry cries of “Never Again” filled the air.

By the time the demonstration reached Merrion Square, its tail end was still crossing O’Connell Bridge.

“The anger extends beyond Ireland,” organiser Sinead Kennedy of the Irish Choice Network told the crowd as they huddled in the rain at the beginning of the march.

“For more than 20 years we have seen political cowardice and inaction on this issue. The theme of this march is ‘never again’. Never again will a woman be allowed to die,” she said.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1117/breaking4.html

November 17, 2012 at 9:13 p.m.
alprova said...

Folks...you can whine, moan, rant, rave, or flat out cry. The bottom line is that Barack Obama is the President of the United States of America, and he will remain the President until January 20, 2017.

From all indications in this forum, it's going to be a very miserable four years for some of you.

But you know what? Despite what some of you think, your life will go on. America will go on and will continue to improve, despite all the fervent chick-wing flapping that some of you are known for.

Flap, flap, flap away...

November 17, 2012 at 9:23 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

JonRoss said...

"hitchens is dead."

Not quite as dead as your business abilities. He never went bankrupt nor failed to pay his creditors and bills, wrote books, magazine articles, made millions.

Unlike god, Christopher Hitchens was alive and made contributions to the world.

Other than simper, piss and moan, and play the victim, what have you done, littlejohnnyross?

November 17, 2012 at 9:35 p.m.

degage, the self-obliviousness of the right never fails to amuse.

Which losing presidential candidate just got done trying to stoke the fires of resentment? Oh yeah.

Maybe you con's think if you fool yourself, others are also deceived, but no, that's not true.

November 17, 2012 at 10:37 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

so dayton123: while bustin JonRoss's chops, please post your accomplishments.

November 18, 2012 at 12:04 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Derek Dooley is a republican.

November 18, 2012 at 12:08 a.m.
chet123 said...

chet123....i told you so!!!!

November 23, 2012 at 12:10 p.m.
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