published Friday, November 30th, 2012

Many don't care about Earth's age and other letters to the editors

Many don't care about Earth's age

Paul Krugman's "Grand old planet" piece (Nov. 24) must have been a red-faced embarrassment to anyone who read it pre-publication. Krugman, a Nobel winner in the economics and politics category, agonizes over whether the Earth is 6,000 years old or millions of years old, with the fear that the search for raw materials underground may be at risk from religious disrespect of scientific certainties. He writes, "How are we going to search effectively for natural resources if schools trying to teach modern geology must give equal time to claims that the world is only 6,000 years old?"

I fear Mr. Krugman's attempt to bash Marco Rubio before the 2016 election, if there will be one, you have overlooked at least a couple of facts that are beyond question.

First, the 6,000-year thought is not universally accepted by Christians, and in any case, Jehovah God was excused from class many years ago.

Second, folks who dig in the ground are not influenced by whether it is a billion years old or from the day before yesterday. They smell money and may not even know how to spell science, theology or Krugman. Good grief! Get a grip.

CLIF TINKHAM


Cut dirty business in government

Are political party falsehoods protected by First Amendment free speech rights? Whether you believe in broad or deliberate definitions of it, an early election history precedent may exist; due to varying definitions of the republic itself, election campaigns included some tantrums. Now they're so calculated we can only understand free speech with developmental theory.

Theory No. 1: A specific right: Citizens may openly criticize government without fear of punishment. Development: published or repeated slander or ridicule in the press or by Internet. Subject to civil suit or criminal trial, and challenges Theory No. 2.

Theory No. 2: Broad and controversial. Due to Supreme Court leeway, public obscenity and pornography often allowed, but usually determined by towns and cities. Development: Due to government infringement on Amendments IV and I, private-sector surveillance and wiretapping occurs, and public objections usually are ignored.

Where government leads, populations follow. We need strong standards that diminish dirty business in politics and government. Otherwise Americans can't feel comfortable riding buses -- or seeking office.

Republican and Democratic parties, fearing free discussion of constitutional problems, usually exclude third-party candidates. Right-to-vote issues win in unbiased courts and lose where voting isn't seen as guaranteed free speech.

RACHEL WHEELER

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daytonsdarwin said...

Seems that science marches on. Even Christian fundamentalist Pat Roberson acknowledges the falsity of creationism's young earth.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/11/29/pat-robertson-challenges-creationism/

Is this a true miracle or what?

November 30, 2012 at 8:57 a.m.
Livn4life said...

To Rachel Wheeler: I hear what you are saying. Yet we live in a day of uninformed people who hear what they want to hear, true or not, most often not and vote in that direction. This continues to empower the government. We have yet to see how far this will go in the US but the last election indicates we are well on our way to more government take overs, limits, sanctioning, regulation. It is what it is. daytonsdarwin, NOWHERE, repeat NOWHER has creationism claimed the earth has to be young. Creationism is based in faith. It was the scientific domain which put the age on the earth from their conclusions based on their understanding of what creationism was saying. The truth is, was and always has been, we do not know exactly how old the earth is, no human being was there when it was formed.

November 30, 2012 at 9:27 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Second, folks who dig in the ground are not influenced by whether it is a billion years old or from the day before yesterday. They smell money and may not even know how to spell science, theology or Krugman

Assuming you mean geologists (as miners are directed where to dig by geologists) understanding the age of the earth and the processes that shape it mean EVERYTHING. No one finds hidden resource reserves by using the bible.

November 30, 2012 at 9:28 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Livin4life wrote: "NOWHERE, repeat NOWHER has creationism claimed the earth has to be young."

Wrong again. http://creationmuseum.org/

From the first paragraph at the Creation Museum: Children play and dinosaurs roam near Eden’s Rivers.

Continue reading if you can. It's hilarious.

The sad part is that many Americans (over 50%) still believe this way. No wonder that America is often considered the trailer-trash of the world when it comes to scientific understanding, in great part due to religious baloney.

November 30, 2012 at 9:49 a.m.

CLIF TINKHAM, you may not have noticed, but there's a very vocal group of self-professed "Christians" who want to put their beliefs front and center into the school curriculum.

But actually, folks who dig in the ground very much need to understand the processes at some level, and not be deluded by deliberate fantasy that ignores reality.

RACHEL WHEELER, yes, it seems they are, since Mitt Romney got away with so much.

Livn4life, that's easily refuted.

http://conservapedia.com/Age_of_the_Earth

You can say not all creationists believe that way, you can say you don't, but don't lie to our faces and say that creationists making that argument don't exist.

November 30, 2012 at 10:15 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Living4life wrote : ". . .we do not know exactly how old the earth is, no human being was there when it was formed."

Neither was Jehovah. But scientific methods are more accurate than a book of myths.

November 30, 2012 at 10:41 a.m.
una61 said...

Sadly, many adults have not overcome their childhood indoctrination with the myths of Genesis. When will church leaders publicly admit that the Genesis stories are myths and stop indoctrinating impressionable children with these myths?

November 30, 2012 at 11:32 a.m.
degage said...

Ikeithlu, haven't seen you on the forum lately thought you might be under way. How is your trip going and where are you now. Have you jumped off to fla yet.

November 30, 2012 at 2:40 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

We crossed Apalachee Bay Monday/Tuesday and entered Tampa Bay Wednesday! (after getting the tar beaten out of us offshore Wednesday afternoon) We are now in Ft. Myers. Thanks for asking!

November 30, 2012 at 3:31 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Hold on to Your Holy Hat! Demons, Devils, and Unholy Ghosts Can Rape You!

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/spiritual-warfare/15889-can-you-be-raped-by-the-devil

Just when you thought it couldn't get worse, now Satan is checking out your privates!

This is for real. Some Christians, including Ron Phillips (he writes for this group), apparently believe this stuff!

No wonder America is losing in education. People are teaching this to kids.

You can just imagine this conversation in a school taught by these whackos.

"Now, little Johnny, what's 2 plus 2? For instance, last night the devil raped your 6 year-old sister in her bed then a succubus and incubus joined in, and a demon named Elvis took Polaroids, so how many spirits were on the bed?" asked the teacher.

"Four," says little Johnny. "But God told me to kill my sister for allowing it to happen, so she's in hell, burning for eternity thanks to our loving God and Jesus."

"That's great, little Johnny. You've been listening to preacher again. Praise God!"

Any wonder why people become agnostics/atheists? Any wonder why people don't want religion taught as historical facts in public schools?

It's time to scrutinize religions and their teachers just like politicians.

November 30, 2012 at 5:03 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Who is this that darkeneth counsel without knowledge?

The amount of time between verses one and two of Genesis 1st chapter, is absolutely unknown to us.

We do know that sATAN ruled prehistoric creatures (not humans of today) before Noah's Flood. This is also when dinosaurs were on earth.

Lucifer was cast down to earth with 1/3 of the heavenly host. Interesting that we have also come to the earth (albeit a re-plenished earth).

Please research the 'Gap Explanation' regarding the age of planet earth (Bible).

For you scoffers >>>>>>>"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing".

Ken ORR

December 1, 2012 at 1:14 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Except, Ken Orr, there is zero physical evidence of a global flood. Zero. Zero evidence of dinosaurs living at the same time as humans. Zero evidence of an ark. And it has been demonstrated that the ark could not have been built big enough to do the job, it has been demonstrated that there is not enough water to cover the earth, and if there was, the energy released from that much rainfall in such as short time would boil it all away. Your fairy tales were oral mythology from primitive people trying to explain a world they did not yet understand. It is time to grow up, join the 21st century (heck, the 19th century would do) and put away fairy stories.

BTW, if you have finished that list of books you asked for, I have more, some on this very topic.

December 1, 2012 at 5:11 a.m.
degage said...

Ike, Glad to hear you made it,that trip to tampa is tough this time of year. Ft Myers is a good place , are you in ft myers beach, north ft,myers. Naples has a nice marina if your draft isn't to deep. Have to stay in the markers. Where are you headed from there? you must think I'm nosey but I guess I'm missing the fun.

December 1, 2012 at 7:16 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

We are headed to coastal GA first, then we'll come back south. Right now we are at Ft. Myers Yacht Basin. We draw 5 feet so there are places we cannot go, that's for sure.

December 1, 2012 at 7:37 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

"We do know that sATAN ruled prehistoric creatures (not humans of today) before Noah's Flood. This is also when dinosaurs were on earth."

It's statements like this that make me laugh. Another fine example of why religious myths shouldn't be taught as historical and scientific facts to children in schools.

December 1, 2012 at 8:28 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Science Finds God>>>>>>Choose Right!<<<<<<<

December 1, 2012 at 9:16 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Science Finds God>>>>>>Choose Right!<<<<<<<

December 1, 2012 at 9:20 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

There is no counsel, nor knowledge, nor devices, which can be taken against the Lord God of Hosts.

The anti-Christs know who they are. They practice great folly.

sATAN ruled over his nations on earth before yet Adam and Ever were created. sATAN is a defeated enemy who will next be cast into the bottomless pit. After this he will be cast into the lake of fire. Then, the last enemy which is death, will be cast into the lake of fire with sAtan.

Those, who know who they are, will burn in eternal torment also. They are called the anti-Christ.

You who do not know of the pre-adamite generations, which experienced the dinosaurs, must study to show yourselves approved unto God.

December 1, 2012 at 9:35 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Poor old Orr. I'm afraid he's been dipping into the communion wine again.

Stay tuned folks, his rantings get better!

December 1, 2012 at 9:58 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Did you do your reading, Ken Orr? Are you reading to make your report on it?

December 1, 2012 at 10:59 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Greetings Dear lkeithlu~

Oh yes, and i continue to read. I guess the toughest concern for me at this point is: 1. Water is not used up. Water only transfers from place to place.

<p>Ecotechwater.com reports: How much water is used to produce a single day's supply of U.S. newsprint? {Hi Times Free Press +(:>}

300 million gallons is the answer.

If the entire earth's surface were leveled by smoothing out the topography of not only the land surface but also the rock surface on the ocean floor, the waters of the ocean would cover the earth's surface to a depth of 1.7 miles!

The H2o that fell on Noah, and the foolish who did not believe him, is the same water that falls on us. Even plant system's biomas that uses H2o decays into carbon and hydrogen, and back to water.

So even though we use a whole lot of water, well, if it goes somewhere, it'll be back.

I hope my reading/studying is paying off.......kwo

December 1, 2012 at 3:45 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Please do a study of 'The Gap Explanation' of the age of our earth. Adam and Eve did not live with the dinosaurs and cave men.

sATAN ruled the nations of that earth before Adam and Eve were created. That earth, which we can still age-test, was billions of years old.

Adam & Eve were commanded by Jesus Christ to 're-plenish' (re-fill) an earth that had once been filled by prehistoric cave men. Dinosaurs were a common thing in the earth of the 'Gap Explanation'.

There is no contradiction within Holy Scripture of The Holy Bible.......kwo

December 1, 2012 at 3:50 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Ken, ocean water is not usable. Safe fresh water is in short supply. From your comments I can see you haven't read at all. Detention for you.

December 1, 2012 at 5:45 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Poor old Orr. He's in la-la land again, but I believe his science and history get crazier with each telling.

He's why creationism/religion has no place in public schools or on public property.

Would you want him teaching your kids? Does his own kids believe this nonsense?

As the old song goes, "He's more to be pitied than censured."

Except Orr's for creating a theocratic rule in America with himself as King.

Relax, he'll be back with another chapter of "Amazing Stories" in a little while. He's got to change into his evening tin-foil hat first.

December 1, 2012 at 5:51 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

daytonsdarwin~

You are a Master of 'premium humor'. I wish You were a Christian Brother of mine.......kwo

December 1, 2012 at 7:04 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So Ken, what did you think of Diamond's book?

December 1, 2012 at 7:08 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

lkeithlu~

Yes i have read and studied a lot of what You sent. You know You completely overwhelmed me with resources. How could i finish all that and still carry on with life? I am not even close to finished. They inform about desalination of ocean water.......what's wrong with that? I think Saudi Arabia, and, Australia is doing a lot of desalination now.......kwo

December 1, 2012 at 7:10 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Desalination takes energy, Ken. Lots of expensive energy. Energy that developing nations, those with the biggest problem finding clean water don't have. Saudi Arabia is sparsely populated and sitting on a large oil source. Australia will find it difficult, even though they are prosperous. The American Southwest? The agrarian sections of GA, FL and CA? Farmers are struggling now-how are they going to pay for desalination????

Let's not even delve into problems with distribution. A lot of drought=stricken areas are inland, with no pipelines, no infrastructure, no roads.

December 1, 2012 at 7:17 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Diamond's? I will have to go to my links. I've got to leave out of the office now. I will beg my Wife to let me use the computer when i get home. (30 minutes). Until then, peace and blessings. ~Do You believe in 'blessings'?

December 1, 2012 at 7:18 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Nope, but I do believe in the inherent goodness of human beings who have a clear understanding of the problems our over-population presents to all humans and the quality of their lives. But they can do no good by being ignorant or deluded about the real issues mankind faces.

December 1, 2012 at 7:21 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You completely overwhelmed me with resources...

Sorry, hon, but you are starting from way behind and need to catch up. That means a lot of work, a lot of reading, a lot of learning. Learning is hard work, but research is even more so. One thing that drives me nuts is when people dismiss the large amount of knowledge that represents the life's work of thousands of scientists. "I don't know" is NEVER an excuse.

December 1, 2012 at 7:43 p.m.
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