published Saturday, October 13th, 2012

Choice

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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dude_abides said...

I guess he feels that this would be a choice even a woman could make!

October 13, 2012 at 12:14 a.m.
John_Proctor said...

He feels that it's the ONLY choice a woman should be allowed to make.

October 13, 2012 at 12:15 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

How about school choice? The government has no trouble dictating my life and getting into my pants (pocket) on that one.

How about lifestyle choice? If you don't want a baby, don't buy a ticket in the baby lottery. If you do want a baby, get into a reasonable marriage first: remember Dan Quayle was right. Does "choice" mean murdering a little baby for the convenience of one's sex life? (Well, two's sex life, or more.)

Love your neighbor enough to deny them sex outside marriage, and to deny them marriage unless you're reasonable sure it'll be workable (budget, lifestyle, and so on). Love your babies enough to give them a chance, as you were given one.

October 13, 2012 at 12:17 a.m.
fairmon said...

Abort this subject from this nfp page. It is the law, why are people still debating whether it should be allowed or not? Actually it should not be a federal issue but that doesn't seem to stop the growing central government from intervening in peoples lives at every turn as more and more people encourage them to.

October 13, 2012 at 12:27 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "Abort this subject from this nfp page. It is the law, why are people still debating whether it should be allowed or not?"

Perhaps that is because, depending on which week it is and which way the wind happens to be blowing, Mitt Romney has vowed several times to overturn Roe V. Wade and to put Planned Parenthood out of business.

Now he can't accomplish such a feat on his own, if elected, however, whichever man happens to be elected as President in November, will likely have opportunity to appoint one or two Supreme Court Justices to the bench, which could impact any decision made should the issue of abortion come up again.

This Presidential election puts that long standing law in peril.

"Actually it should not be a federal issue but that doesn't seem to stop the growing central government from intervening in peoples lives at every turn as more and more people encourage them to."

Conservatives who are also on the strict anti-abortion bandwagon have been working for an opportunity like this for decades. If Mitt Romney is elected, and if he happens to be a true-blue pro-life candidate, and if one or two Supreme Court Justices retire, will he install one or two Conservatives in the Nation's highest Court who harbor a deep resentment against abortion?

This is a serious question that people must ask themselves before casting their vote come November. It is as serious an issue as anything else on the table for this coming November.

Harp, the issue as it currently stands and the law of the land as it exists, is not an example of the Government intervening in people's lives. There law as it is now allows people the freedom to make a very personal choice relevant to their own lives.

Anti-abortionists most definitely want to use the power of Gov't to intervene in people's lives and`many people are convinced that a Mitt Romney presidency will finally deliver the chance to do so.

They may be right or they may be wrong. Mitt Romney can not be trusted either way, based on his wavering back and forth on the issue, as recently as a few days ago.

October 13, 2012 at 1 a.m.
alprova said...

AndrewLohr wrote: "How about lifestyle choice? If you don't want a baby, don't buy a ticket in the baby lottery. If you do want a baby, get into a reasonable marriage first"

Asking or expecting many or most people to never have sex until after they are in a "reasonable" marriage, is as realistic a proposal as expecting people to convert to Christianity two minutes after ringing a doorbell.

"Does "choice" mean murdering a little baby for the convenience of one's sex life?"

No, it shouldn't be, but if that is the criteria that one uses to seek an abortion, any consequence that comes from it should be between them and God.

"Love your neighbor enough to deny them sex outside marriage, and to deny them marriage unless you're reasonable sure it'll be workable (budget, lifestyle, and so on)."

It would be interesting to know your whole life story, as someone who would type the above. Have you lived a perfect life? Did you first have sex only after you were married, or were you saved after living in sin yourself?

"Love your babies enough to give them a chance, as you were given one."

Yesterday, you were willing to forgo all of that to support people who may vote for a man, who may or may not have demanded a woman to abort his own offspring, because he might "vote less badly than a Democrat."

Sigh...

October 13, 2012 at 1:21 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Bennett following left's guideline. Libya too hot a topic so let's distract and talk about abortion.

October 13, 2012 at 1:25 a.m.
miraweb said...

Ryan is a bit more predictable than Romney. Romney keeps forgetting he's "severely conservative." His staff are writing hourly memos to tell the party faithful what Mitt really meant to say.

So how many of you guys are ready for a Mormon Supreme Court Justice? My money is on a Marriott.

October 13, 2012 at 1:30 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira: That was tacky. Disappointed in you.

October 13, 2012 at 1:39 a.m.
miraweb said...

I heard George W is still looking around Maine fishing holes to find those Iraqi WMDs. Could locate them any day now.

Sorting out a confusing situation in Libya in a couple of weeks just doesn't compare. Romney has to try and make something of it so people don't stop and think about how really badly he messed up that week. He was just coming off that stellar Olympics jaunt.

Must have thrown him off his game.

October 13, 2012 at 1:48 a.m.
miraweb said...

I don't think that is an unfair question, Jack.

Mitt hired people he knew from church to staff Bain.

Mitt hired people he knew from Bain to staff his campaign, a large number of whom just happen to be Mormon.

When it comes time to name a new Justice, is Mitt likely to break habit and go far outside his tight little world or will he select someone he already knows?

For people on the left a justice who may have actively campaigned in California against prop 8 would be a serious concern. People on the right who have been told by their pastors that Mormons are some sort of Satanic cult would have other problems with a Mormon on the court for the next 40 years.

That may not be the prettiest view of American voters, but it isn't unrealistic.

October 13, 2012 at 2:18 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira: You're injecting religion into it. Also, you seem to be admitting defeat.

October 13, 2012 at 3:04 a.m.
EaTn said...

Abortion is the one issue that candidates can continually rally gullible support while smoothing-over other issues. Bush was elected under that premise: eight years came and went with nothing changed on abortion.

October 13, 2012 at 6:58 a.m.
dougmusn said...

@Jack_Dennis @1:25: We can discuss Libya if you wish--it's not too hot a topic. I would remind you of the words of the Prussian Fieldmarshall Helmuth von Molkte: "No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy." This is true whether you are on offense or defense. It is the job of the ambassador of a country and his staff to interact with the citizens of the foreign country in which he or she works, an activity which is inherently risky. The only way to prevent any death or injury to our people is to withdraw into a fortress and never leave and never let anyone inside. Ultimately this would be indistinguishable from having no representation in a country or region. Ambassadors, FSO's and staff accept these risks just as I accepted the risks attendant to wearing the uniform of our Navy for just under 14 years.

We all mourn the death of our ambassador and his staff. We will figure this out and adjust our "battle plan" in defense of our interests. Pointing fingers, screaming and shouting to lay blame only interferes with a necessary process of growing wiser.

October 13, 2012 at 7:16 a.m.
degage said...

Mira, stop with the hate crap. you are so obsessed with Mitts religion it is getting tiresome. If I was to say Obama is a athiest you would be all over me, and I think he is a christian in name only. He acts like a petulant child claiming to be something he is not. We get it ,you believe in Obamas socialist agenda and are worried it will end if he loses.

I guess you weren't alive when people were wringing their hands that a catholic was running for president. Kennedy won and the world didn't end. Catholics didn't take over the US and if Mitt wins the mormon won't take over so relax and get a life.

October 13, 2012 at 7:20 a.m.
rolando said...

The Obama is not an athiest; he is a closet Muslim -- his actions fairly scream it. Bending over and [figuratively] kissing the Arabian King's ring was the first of many clues.

He will have no compunction against killing non-Muslim Americans; something like 1 billion rounds of hollow-point ammo have been ordered by his administration. [Hollow-point or dum-dum bullets are outlawed in international warfare so they are for use against Americans and no one else.]

October 13, 2012 at 7:40 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

If Mitt Romney is elected, and if he happens to be a true-blue pro-life candidate, and if one or two Supreme Court Justices retire, will he install one or two Conservatives in the Nation's highest Court who harbor a deep resentment against abortion?

alpro...You don't really know who he would select and certainly not what they would decide on an issue IF this issue were even to come before them. You know any reco for SCJ must be approved by congress? I don't have a preference between Obama and Romney but I would not have this issue be a deciding factor. I understand my vote for Gary Johnson may not count except for my personal principles but regardless of who is elected I will still be right when I say I told you so.

Any candidate or president that takes over 30 minutes on this subject is taking time away from much more critical issues that have to be addressed now and constantly for years to prevent the financial failure of this country.

The first and foremost duty of protecting and defending America should be expanded to include protecting against an implosion that destroys us from within as has happened to those great dynasties in history. Each thought and said it is "different this time" we are too great and powerful to ever fall from being the richest and most powerful in the world. Trust us, their leaders said, we will not allow that to happen. Anything sound familiar to you history buffs?

October 13, 2012 at 8:04 a.m.
ricardo said...

I love how conservatards are now such intelligence experts on Libyan embassy security when they could not find Iraq WMD's or prevent 9/11. Such hypocrites.

October 13, 2012 at 8:07 a.m.
ricardo said...

harpo-

I agree that the abortion issue is a distraction while we have many more problems to address. However, the right wingnut base of the conservatard party continually add this litmus test to their nominee. They want less government in our lives, until it comes to issues like prayer in schools, abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research, or taking off "IN GOD WE TRUST" from our money. Pure hypocrisy.

October 13, 2012 at 8:18 a.m.
rick1 said...

ricardo, if you are going to blame Bush on WMD's then be honest and talk about what democracst said about Iraq and WMD's

“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability.” — Robert Byrd, October 2002

“This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.” — From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos.

“Saddam’s goal … is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed.” — Madeline Albright, 1998

“Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement.” — Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

“I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons…I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out.” — Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

October 13, 2012 at 8:39 a.m.
miraweb said...

Jack and Dégagé

You are right. I withdraw my statement about a Mormon justice. It was wrong to say that.

October 13, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.
fairmon said...

This 'toon again takes another shot at the Desjarlais situation. He has now given his side of the story so voters in the 4th district will decide what they believe and who they prefer. Three days in a row the issue is about a Dr. with a Kojak look that now says he is against abortion while his opponents say he wanted a patient he had sex with that was never pregnant to have one. Are a large number of TFP readers in Tennessee's 4th district?

October 13, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

There is something perverted and unprincipled about politicians like Paul Ryan who pontificate and pile on the moralizing rhetoric when it comes to women and embryos while completely ignoring the immorality embedded in their own neocon theology.

October 13, 2012 at 8:48 a.m.
rick1 said...

“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.” — Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

“The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.” — Bill Clinton in 1998

“(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983″ — National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

Sandy Beger also destroyed documents just before he was to testify in front of the 911 Commission and we will never know what those documents contained.

Sharing of information among Intell and Law Enforcement was a huge problem as well.

This started under the Clinton Administration and Clinton was in office for 8 years. Bush was in office for 9 months when we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11. To blame all of this on Bush is absurd.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/fbiciansa_infor.html

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/wall.pdf

October 13, 2012 at 8:49 a.m.
mymy said...

24 Days to Go!

It is still the economy/jobs/foreign policy/direction of country/National Security here/abroad and the growing debt.

Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock

October 13, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.
fairmon said...

miraweb said... Jack and Dégagé

You are right. I withdraw my statement about a Mormon justice. It was wrong to say that.

miraweb...That took courage but you are disqualified from running for political office. It is admirable to think about a statement further and admit it may have been better not said. But, in politics admitting you may be wrong on any issue is not politically acceptable. You would be accused of flip flopping etc. etc..

October 13, 2012 at 8:54 a.m.
conservative said...

For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well. My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately woven in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..

October 13, 2012 at 9:06 a.m.
jesse said...

I disaree w/most of mira's views BUT you gotta admit she/him is a stand up type person! Now My-my on the other hand? I went to bed last night and was trying to nod off and tic-toc was runnin thru my brain and i had to get up and have a shot to kinda zone out so i could go to sleep!! LOL of course i gotta admit i was just lookin for an excuse!!

Conservative has totally lost his mind!!He been hangin w/ Andrew and Orr too long!Hell even andrew ain't this looney!

October 13, 2012 at 9:07 a.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel said... There is something perverted and unprincipled about politicians like Paul Ryan who pontificate and pile on the moralizing rhetoric when it comes to women and embryos while completely ignoring the immorality embedded in their own neocon theology.

Is that a broad brush slap at the Catholic religion? You have decided the morality or immorality of Catholicism? Does that mean you don't like Biden since he says his Catholic religion is who he is? Does that mean you had no use for the Kennedy family?

Or, does it mean you think democrat Catholics are all good and republican catholics are all bad? I guess my man Gary Johnson may also not meet your morality measurements?

October 13, 2012 at 9:09 a.m.
jesse said...

Hey Harp! mtlaurel is just as far out in the ZONE as jonses,nooga,dude and bulbs! when you adhere to the Party line no matter what it eliminates the need to THINK!! Alprova is a good example of this!!

October 13, 2012 at 9:18 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolado wrote: "He will have no compunction against killing non-Muslim Americans; something like 1 billion rounds of hollow-point ammo have been ordered by his administration. [Hollow-point or dum-dum bullets are outlawed in international warfare so they are for use against Americans and no one else.]"

Rolando, you're passing on another silly, stupid, ignorant rumor, born out there in anti-Obamaville.

The rumor seems to be traced to a retired Major General Jerry Curry, a man that most people have never heard of, outside of the crowd that reads Infowars on a daily basis. Oh...and he's running for President too.

He's one of several controversial ex-military members who have attained celebrity status with the kooks across the country who believe every conspiracy theory out there in anti-Obamaville.

http://curryforamerica.com/

The article that went viral among the kooks;

http://thedifferencesofus.com/2012/08/21/who-does-the-government-intend-to-shoot/

Depending on which source article you read, the amounts purchased by the Obama Administration range anywhere from 174,000 all the way up to 1.2 billion rounds. The Governmental departments alleged to be making the ammo purchases morphs from site to site.

Do you know what is missing in all of these claims? Proof. Not one supplier of ammunition has been able to cough up an order or a signed receipt, proving that the the claim has a shred of credibility.

Claims have been made that if Obama is not reelected, that he intends to use the ammo to retain his fortress in the White House, a conspiracy also born in Curry's article. We have one poster in this very forum who has offered that incredible assertion more than once.

Who do these people think is going to take up arms against Americans on behalf of the President?

Any assertion that there is any such thing as an unprecedented use of hollow points on Americans is rather silly. Hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of police ammunition, due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.

This rumor most certainly is making its way across the web and the kooks are eating it up. Paranoia in the U.S. is at an all time high.

Thank you Rolando, for reinforcing that you are nothing more than a proponent of the kook agenda.

October 13, 2012 at 9:31 a.m.
moon4kat said...

rolando, by your "logic," George W. Bush must be a Muslim. Or, have you conveniently forgotten all the photos of Bush walking along, holding hands with the Saudi king??

October 13, 2012 at 9:40 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Clay trying to drum up the abortion argument again. Why isn't Clay talking about Obama's fantastic energy policy? Or how about his awesome economy ? Or maybe Clay could cartoon about Obama's wonderful foreign policy achievements.

Studies have shown that the #1 concern for women is the economy. Clay's getting nervous and he's trying to shoot an old arrow.

October 13, 2012 at 9:45 a.m.
alprova said...

Rick1, you can post 500 examples of statements made by Democrats endorsing the need to invade Iraq, and it will forever and always be meaningless.

We now know that Congress was force-fed an intelligence report by GWB and Dick Cheney that was nothing short of B.S. from start to finish.

You people are all over the President for what happened in Libya on 9/11/12, due to mythical intelligence reports that allegedly landed in his desk, while totally forgetting that the specific intelligence reports regarding Saddam Hussein were absolutely falsified in order to rally Congress to side with GWB, who clearly had an agenda to take out the man who nearly took out his Papa.

I happened to catch Bill Maher's show last night. His guests were Ann Coulter, whom I found to be quite pleasant and a little more reasonable than usual, U.S. Representatve Darell Issa, Ben Affleck, and the Governor of Montana, whose name escapes me at the moment.

Ben Affleck destroyed Issa at one point, which resulted in the audience exploding in applause, when he chided Issa for politicizing the events in Libya as an attempt to unseat the President.

Issa came off looking like the boob that he is. Whenever I see that man, I think every time of Joseph McCarthy.

October 13, 2012 at 9:52 a.m.
conservative said...

Biden the moral moron :

Biden began by acknowledging that he agrees with the Catholic Church's teaching that life begins at conception, but he clarified that he believes that only "personally." Amazingly, on live national television, the vice president then went on to state that though he thinks infants in the womb are living human beings, he does not believe in using the force of law to protect them. Notice that Biden is not saying the unborn are not human, and therefore it is okay to destroy them. He is implicitly acknowledging his belief that those children are in fact human beings, and then giving tacit approval for them to be legally dismembered. The vice president of the United States just made a moral case for murder. Shocking.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/10/bidens_churchstate_schizophrenia.html#ixzz29Bf0GfJ8

October 13, 2012 at 9:58 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 rants: “Is that a broad brush slap at the Catholic religion? You have decided the morality or immorality of Catholicism? Does that mean you don't like Biden since he says his Catholic religion is who he is? AND Jesse rants: "Hey Harp! mtlaurel is just as far out in the ZONE as jonses,nooga,dude and bulbs! when you adhere to the Party line no matter what it eliminates the need to THINK!!"

Well, Jesse & Harp3339, I guess the two of you are not aware the leaders of the Catholic faith – the Catholic Popes - have rejected Paul Ryan’s neo-conservative premptive war type politics on grounds that they do not meet the Christian definition of “just wars.”

In fact, John Paul II, was a prominent critic of President Bush’s invasion of Iraq and said that it was up to the United Nations to solve the international conflict through diplomacy and that a unilateral aggression is a crime against peace and a violation of international law.

So again, I say: There is something perverted and unprincipled about politicians like Paul Ryan who pontificate and pile on the moralizing rhetoric when it comes to women and embryos while completely ignoring the immorality embedded in their own neocon theology.

October 13, 2012 at 10:19 a.m.
dude_abides said...

How is the trout fishing going, jessie? Did you forget to go to Tellico? Lemme guess, Tellico Trout Farm is a wi-fi hot spot! You're web surfing from your fish finder!

October 13, 2012 at 10:22 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Democrats before Iraq War started....

Ok alpo, now you need to prove that they were "force-fed" an intelligence report from Bush and Cheney, or they read the exact same report from the same intelligence sources AS Bush and Cheney.

October 13, 2012 at 10:24 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

WMD Quotes from Democrats

October 13, 2012 at 10:29 a.m.
mymy said...

Everybody should be listening to Neil C. on Fox-10 am Sat. mornings.

The dicussion is the economny and what will happen if nothing is worked out before Jan.1.

October 13, 2012 at 10:30 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Democrats Hypocrisy Over The Iraq War

October 13, 2012 at 10:31 a.m.
degage said...

toes, I'm sure Al will say those remarks from the Dems were taken out of context. He can't agree they said those things and continue to blame Bush. Biden voted for the iraq war and the other night he lied and said he didn't.

October 13, 2012 at 10:32 a.m.
miraweb said...

It is always that same difficult argument. If something is important - does that necessarily mean the government is the only way to handle it?

When abortion was illegal it did not go away. It was dangerous. It was expensive. But it was not non-existant.

Illegal abortion kills women. Illegal abortion injures women.

I see conservatives running around saying that the government should step in, must step in, will step in because that is the best way to deal with unexpected pregnancies.

The following day these same people have a vice-presidential candiate waving her flags denouncing "death panels" (or counseling for the elderly for living wills as sane people call it - we miss you Sarah!) or a Presidential candidate inventing that Obamacare will have a "15 member board" set up just to deny them care (it is a payment review board who has a legal bar preventing denial of health care in the law - as sane people read it).

People talk about the need for a moral case yet can't seem to make any coherent case about when the government should be in charge and when the rest of society (say clinics, churches, non-profits, schools, physicians) might be a better way.

Just when did we decide that "man stuff" is suited for the private realm but "women stuff" requires cops, jail, and government enforcement?

As far as access to birth control - that alone will prevent millions of abortions.

There is a question whether institution's religious feelings or women's religious feelings should be injured in the implementation. It really does look like one or the other will have to bend here.

I think we have the right balance. If free birth control is available - women who have religious objections can choose not to use it. Women who do not have religious objection can choose to use it.

In birth control if you can only give a choice to either a women who can get pregnant or a celibate man who will never, ever get pregnant, I would say the woman is a lot closer to the issue and should be the first to have her say.

October 13, 2012 at 10:38 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

It's strange how these democrats say that Bush was "stupid" and "an idiot", but all seem to agree that he was so brilliant minded as to perpetrate a massive "hoax" as the Iraq war. Or better yet, he was so "stupid" he planned the whole 9/11 attacks involving hundreds of people and kept it all under wraps for 11 years so far.

They can't have it both ways.

October 13, 2012 at 10:39 a.m.
miraweb said...

Bush was a moron. Cheney on the other hand . . .

October 13, 2012 at 10:41 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

mira says this: "As far as access to birth control - that alone will prevent millions of abortions".

Ok, tell me this, under which republican president was birth control not accessible? Which republican president was it that banned birth control again? I must have missed that one.

October 13, 2012 at 10:44 a.m.
jesse said...

HEY DUDE! weather went bad on my azz! But i will be up there next weekend IF IT AIN'T rainin!! BTW: I knew you was keepin track of my azz! I just quit my job and am now 100% RETIRED so gonna be doin a LOT of fishin and campin and such!

October 13, 2012 at 10:46 a.m.
dude_abides said...

You mouth breathers can post all the crap you want trying to revise history, but it was Bush's war. You people defended it when it was ongoing, and now you're trying share the blame. You gave him a second term, for Christ's sake! I personally consider the outing of Valerie Plame an act of TREASON. This was and will continue to be known as Bush's War.

October 13, 2012 at 10:47 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Oh, I see now, it was all CHENEY'S fault! Talk about conspiracy theorist! So please elaborate on just how they kept thousands of mouths shut about this vast conspiracy. Eleven years and not a peep from anyone on being part of Bush and Cheney's war and 9/11 plots.

Yeah, now THAT'S really believable.

October 13, 2012 at 10:51 a.m.
miraweb said...

Quick quiz:

Birth control pills (without insurance) cost out of pocket:

A. $100 per year

B. $500 per year

C. $1000 per year

D. $1500 per year

There are 46 million who don't have health insurance - we can assume that at least 23 million of them are women.

If you don't know the answer, you aren't qualified to make a decision here.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/calculator-birth-control-expensive-really-cost

October 13, 2012 at 10:52 a.m.
dude_abides said...

jessie, my guess is that you'll be doing more 'such', than anything else.

October 13, 2012 at 10:53 a.m.
miraweb said...

Birth control pills - including the annual exam required to get them - cost about $1500 per year.

A baby costs a whole lot more.

October 13, 2012 at 10:54 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira You're the only lefty on here that has a set. If you know what I mean.

October 13, 2012 at 10:56 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Watch the video ! It's your lying democrats trying to "revise" history. They ALL voted for the "Bush's war". That is a FACT! Now who's rewriting history again?

Head in the f_ucking sand.

October 13, 2012 at 10:57 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Conservative proclaims: “Biden the moral moron.”

Hardly, Conservative. In fact, I believe the opposite would be closer to the truth. Unlike Paul Ryan, Vice-President Joe Biden is demonstrating that he respects the rights of his fellow citizens and fully understands that it is wrong to impose his religious beliefs onto others.

October 13, 2012 at 10:58 a.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel said....

Well, Jesse & Harp3339, I guess the two of you are not aware the leaders of the Catholic faith – the Catholic Popes - have rejected Paul Ryan’s neo-conservative premptive war type politics on grounds that they do not meet the Christian definition of “just wars.”

Why am I not surprised that you again find support for your personal view from any source then site it to support your opinion. I didn't realize we were looking to the pope to evaluate or guide our foreign policy. Does Obama consult with and follow the popes advice on foreign policy issues? I wonder what the pope thought about Biden's response which was in essence I am glad the abortion option is the law of the land so I don't have to take a position on that issue since my catholic religion is who I am.

October 13, 2012 at 11:05 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Treasonous bunch of neocons. Lying to the world. They made us a laughing stock. "I'm a war President!" LOL 'The Decider' The biggest loss of credibility this country has ever suffered. Obama has done an awesome job of repairing many of the relationships Bush urinated on, and you want that crowd back.

October 13, 2012 at 11:07 a.m.
miraweb said...

Toes - In this century nearly every unintended pregnancy includes a failure of birth control.

Sometimes it is foolishness - and so many fools there are. Sometimes it is financial. Sometimes it is knowledge (just look at that idiot Akin).

Sometimes it is the natural limits of what birth control can do.

As long as we have unexpected pregnanies - we have pretty good evidence of a couple of people without adequate access.

We can fix the financial part (and, in fact, we just did).

We can fix the knowlege part (except maybe in Missouri).

Fixing the fools part we may have to leave in the hands of God.

October 13, 2012 at 11:07 a.m.
miraweb said...

Dude -

That is the real concern. It isn't Team Romney. It's Team NeoCon and Team Wall Street.

What could go wrong with that?

October 13, 2012 at 11:08 a.m.
miraweb said...

Thanks, Jack. That's high praise.

October 13, 2012 at 11:10 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

I'd love to see a comprehensive list of Obama's great foreign relations accomplishments. Obama's the laughing stock of the world right now.

October 13, 2012 at 11:13 a.m.
fairmon said...

miraweb...

I agree with you. There is no doubt tax payers would be better served assuring birth control methods were readily available to one and all plus the option of free sterilization for males and females. Tax payers may realize a good return on investment by paying for abortions as long as tax payer funded abortions included sterilization. That would do a lot to slow or stop the proliferation of the dependent sector of society. I could get behind a well run program like that instead of the half a$$ fraudulent way the government does things.

October 13, 2012 at 11:13 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Jack_Dennis said... "Mira You're the only lefty on here that has a set. If you know what I mean."

What an uncouth thing to say to a woman, Jack_! You don't even realize it, do you? You were truly trying to say something nice to miraweb and instead you insult her entire gender by suggesting she has attributes of a 'superior' gender?? You really and truly don't get it, do you? Now would be a good time to apologize to miraweb, displaying the same strength of character you say that she showed.

October 13, 2012 at 11:15 a.m.
fairmon said...

miraweb said...

Toes - In this century nearly every unintended pregnancy includes a failure of birth control.

miraweb where did you get that statistic? Surveys indicate it is the failure to use birth control or improper use that results in unplanned pregnancy which means most are from ignorance which is another reason to assure abortion is easily available and encouraged in many cases.

October 13, 2012 at 11:19 a.m.
degage said...

Mire, 1500? thats bull crap and you know it. My grandaughter said she pays $9.00 a month for her birth control pills. Her cigaretes cost close to 100.00 a month. And cable cost 80.00 a month, cell phone 60.00 a month. Of course the ladies can't live without cable cigs and cell phone. It depends on priorities.

October 13, 2012 at 11:20 a.m.
miraweb said...

Your granddaughter takes birth control pills and smokes?

Just how much will her blood clots and stroke add up to?

October 13, 2012 at 11:25 a.m.
miraweb said...

Sorry harp, I wasn't clear.

I didn't mean birth control in use - but it failed. I meant a failure to use birth control.

October 13, 2012 at 11:26 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

I get it dude less_: I also get that you're filled with hollow self-importance and smugness.
If MIRA thinks I owe her an apology, I'll do so. How about it Mira?

October 13, 2012 at 11:27 a.m.
miraweb said...

It's OK Dude. I don't mind being accused of having some brass.

October 13, 2012 at 11:28 a.m.
dude_abides said...

LOL! You're gonna make her ask for an apology? Are you kidding?

October 13, 2012 at 11:31 a.m.
dude_abides said...

miraweb... Your grace can't lessen his buffoonery. My turn... I bet Jack_ has an ample bosom! Several "sets." LMBO !

October 13, 2012 at 11:36 a.m.
miraweb said...

It may be generational thing. I have a friend who prefers "brass ovaries" but I think the traditional phrase is useful, meaningful, and just plain fun.

I also say "girls" sometimes when I am out with my women friends and in my posts say "he" when something gender sensitive would be better.

Some folks do feel strongly about that language and language does matter.

But, if Jack wants to tip his hat in my direction with that fine praise - who am I to doubt his judgement.

October 13, 2012 at 11:39 a.m.
degage said...

Mira, It's her decision and I'm sure she knows the risk. Do you really think she is the only person smoking and taking the pill. You see what I was trying to get across to you is our young people Would rather have cable, cell phones and all the other bells and whistles than pay for there own birth control. I paid for my own birth control pills 50 yrs ago, and yes we did have them. Insurance didn't pay for them then either.

October 13, 2012 at 11:41 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira knows I meant no disrespect. You, dude_, seem to be hung up on mammaries/or testicles. My guess is the latter.

October 13, 2012 at 11:43 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Obama supporters are already planning to start riots if Obama loses. What a great bunch.

October 13, 2012 at 11:44 a.m.
dude_abides said...

You just couldn't bring yourself to apologize freely, could you Jack_? You took a shot at it, but it had to have a "if she thinks so" clause included. Even after she displayed that strength earlier (though I think she was right), you couldn't emulate it. Try these folks, they may help you:

http://www.dalecarnegie.com/secrets_of_success/?keycode=google06_ServicesBranded&gclid=CPCirNCq_rICFQbonAodaxAAHg

October 13, 2012 at 11:44 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Remember Jack, according to the liberal mantra, it takes "the village people" to raise a child. And we all know duped -again just loves the village people.

October 13, 2012 at 11:47 a.m.
miraweb said...

I don't even mind a little chivalry from Dude.

If you hold the door for me, I will smile and say 'Thank You.'

If my tire goes flat, I will be praying for a well meaning good ol' boy to stop and help me out - and not just because I have arthritis in my hands and getting the lugs off is pretty darn hard.

I keep a hammer next to the tire iron for emergencies.

Now if y'all would pay me a decent wage, we could get along pretty good.

October 13, 2012 at 11:53 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Biden Claims He Voted Against Afghanistan, Iraq Wars

http://freebeacon.com/biden-claims-he-voted-against-afghanistan-iraq-wars/

Here duped, maybe you can spend the rest of the day trying to tell us how Biden didn't lie to the American people with THAT little nugget.

October 13, 2012 at 11:55 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

dudely_ appears to be lost in the 90's. BTW, you're wasting keystrokes posting links.

October 13, 2012 at 11:55 a.m.
miraweb said...

True enough, degage - and without cable and a cell phone you might have had time to need it a bit more.

;)

October 13, 2012 at 11:58 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Excellent, Jack_! Now you've insulted women and homosexuals! You accusing me of 'testicle hang ups' is an attempt to ridicule me by calling me gay. Who is next, Jack_? Those multi-wived Mormons?

October 13, 2012 at noon
miraweb said...

Circling around - If you want to prevent one abortion, carry a sign.

If you really want to prevent a million abortions:

Quit trying to roll-back Obamacare.

Fix what needs fixing, and let's get on with it.

October 13, 2012 at 12:01 p.m.
dude_abides said...

TOES02800 said... "Remember Jack, according to the liberal mantra, it takes "the village people" to raise a child. And we all know duped -again just loves the village people."

I so enjoy your duck-billed platitudes, toes! Quack, quack, quack.

October 13, 2012 at 12:08 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

No, dudely_: I've insulted no one. Mentioning testicles is not insulting. You having a keen interest in them is just curious. I have no beef with gays, nor Mormons. You guys keep bring them up. The reality is, you lefties are guilty of exactly the thing you say you oppose....choice, tolerance, inclusion, etc... I guess it's the false elitism your side claims. Funny though. (in a sick kind of way) Have another glass of Chardonnay and get back to us on you dial-up.

October 13, 2012 at 12:09 p.m.
dude_abides said...

To what end would you say someone has a hang up regarding testicles, Jack_, if not to suggest they were gay, and therefore flawed? Be nimble, Jack_. lol

October 13, 2012 at 12:27 p.m.
dude_abides said...

I know you don't mean to be a rogue, Jack_, because I've seen you get sappy on here with various females. Sort of an Actaeon Complex, I would think. You know, where a guy in the company of a winsome woman gets all 'stumbly-cain't-talk-good.'

October 13, 2012 at 12:42 p.m.
MickeyRat said...

Staying on subject:

If one wonders what the US would look like if Republicans and religious fundamentalists ruled. We only need to look at the Middle East to see where religious fundamentalism leads to...

October 13, 2012 at 12:49 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, said democrats making comments about Iraq having WMD's and you say they will forever be meaningless and Congress was force fed intelligence report by GWB and Dick Cheney that was nothing short of B.S. from start to finish.

So what you are saying is that Democrats are unable to have an idenpendent thought of their own and then when things do not work out they can blame everyone else because they can never take responsability.

I see you are still following the regimes talking points with Libya and now you are going to say it is just a poltiicial issue.

October 13, 2012 at 12:51 p.m.
miraweb said...

It's just a political issue.

October 13, 2012 at 12:55 p.m.
mymy said...

With the serious issues people should be concentrating on in this country, the continued discussion of social issues shows how stupid people are.

Anyone whose vote is based on a social issues is stupid for women especially. Too many worry about their social life instead of their economic life. There is a slim to none chance of finding Prince Charming and if you think you have found one there is no guarantees it will last. So, get off your back and start working on your financial future so you can take care of yourself!!!!!

October 13, 2012 at 12:56 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 shifts: “Why am I not surprised that you again find support for your personal view . . . then site it to support your opinion. I didn't realize we were looking to the pope to evaluate or guide our foreign policy.”

I believe you’re trying to avoid addressing the main issue, Harp3339, which is Ryan’s hypocrisy and whimsical religious views. When it comes to issues involving contraception, embryos, abortions, and the rights of rape and incest victims, Ryan cites his religion as a justication for denying the rights of these women to make their own choices. But when it comes to matters involving the immorality embedded in his predatory foreign policies, Paul Ryan conveniently places his religion aside and suddenly claims separation of church and state.

Harp3339 asks: “Does Obama consult and follow the popes advice on foreign policy issues?”

No, President Obama supports and understands the need for separation of church and state.

Harp3339 asks: “Wonder what the pope thought about Biden's response?”

I suspect the pope would be critical of Joe Biden's position in the same way that he is critical of Paul Ryan’s immoral and predatory foreign policies, Harp3339.

October 13, 2012 at 1:01 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Dudely_, you got me there. I DO have a thing for winsome women. Do you?

October 13, 2012 at 1:04 p.m.
miraweb said...

Ah, Ann . . er . . . mymy - nice to see you gracing the 47% with your exalted presence today.

Calling people "stupid" is also the best way to get people to vote for your candidate. "Idiot" is a nice choice as well as "moron."

October 13, 2012 at 1:06 p.m.
mymy said...

Mira: You are a stupid/fooling woman!!!!

October 13, 2012 at 1:08 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira: idiot? Moron? Did you learn those terms from Easy123? :)

October 13, 2012 at 1:13 p.m.
miraweb said...

Always something to learn from everyone, Jack.

"Victim" worked really well for Mitt Romney. He made a ton of friends there.

October 13, 2012 at 1:15 p.m.
miraweb said...

Plus, mymy - we all know that having children has absolutely nothing to do with your economic life.

No impact at all.

October 13, 2012 at 1:19 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Again Jack_ uses homosexual in-your-endo. You gotta lose that fixation, bro! You're wrestling with your inner demons and they're all men. Go to church or something. (in-your-endo... lol)

October 13, 2012 at 1:44 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "So what you are saying is that Democrats are unable to have an idenpendent thought of their own and then when things do not work out they can blame everyone else because they can never take responsability."

No, that's not what I am saying at all. Everyone in Congress, both Republican and Democrat, was mislead by the intelligence submitted to them, regarding Suddam Hussein, Iraq's weaponry, and their supply of nuclear material.

According to several sources, Dick Cheney had enough pull in Washington, to manipulate the information contained in the intelligence reporting that Congress received.

"I see you are still following the regimes talking points with Libya and now you are going to say it is just a poltiicial issue."

What happened is under investigation. To expect that it can be investigated to a logical conlusion over a three week period is ludicrous.

Names are being named, and eventually, those responsible for securing that compound, will be held responsible. It will not reach all the way to the White House, despite all efforts to blame them.

It has definitely been politicized. An idiot can see that. I suspect that you know it too, but anything that can be remotely pinned on the President is a-okay.

Karma is a beotch, and all those who are playing this stupid game, will eventually receive their own due justice.

October 13, 2012 at 1:54 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said....

According to several sources, Dick Cheney had enough pull in Washington, to manipulate the information contained in the intelligence reporting that Congress received.

Unnamed reliable sources no doubt just like Harry Reid's illegal tax info. sources. I don't think you don't believe that but it does reflect poorly on republicans to say it.Iis it not possible as explained many times that the information from French intelligence sources that was not veirifed then later found to be unreliable fooled most people in Washington? It wouldn't be the first time they all looked foolish nor, as recently learned with the Libya fiasco, will it be the last. Our intelligence gathering and analysis has became weaker since congress became more involved than ititially when the CIA and others had more freedom and money. We are probably better off with them being reigned in and we do need to stop being the aggressor nation.

October 13, 2012 at 2:22 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Pakistani Taliban Shoots 14-Year-Old Girl for Women's Rights Activism

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/10/09/pakistani-taliban-shoots-14-year-old-girl-for-womens-rights-activism

But islam is such a peaceful religion. Alpo says so.

October 13, 2012 at 2:37 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

alprova-October 13, 2012 at 1:21 a.m.

"Love your babies enough to give them a chance, as you were given one."

Yesterday, you were willing to forgo all of that to support people who may vote for a man, who may or may not have demanded a woman to abort his own offspring, because he might "vote less badly than a Democrat."

Sigh...

Took the words right out of my mouth.

I would have thought that Andrew, our most outspoken critic of abortion here, would have been the first to denounce Mr. DesJarlais.

How naive of me to expect our Bible quoting poster to walk the walk.

-We have two kinds of morality side by side: one which we preach but do not practice and another which we practice but seldom preach. ~Bertrand Russell

October 13, 2012 at 2:39 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Perhaps if Obama would have attended more of those pesky national security meetings, he would have gotten the memo on more security at Benghazi. Either the administration is lying, or they're incompetent beyond belief. I say they're both.

October 13, 2012 at 2:41 p.m.

The choice to end the life of another human being is a choice that certainly falls under the jurisdiction of responsible and humane civil governments to prohibit. The barbarism unleashed after Roe v. Wade has had disastrous ripple effects on women, children, nuclear families, and communities, to say nothing of the unraveling safety net for retiring baby boomers. The only beneficiaries have been low-life sperm donors. Some choice.

October 13, 2012 at 2:51 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, you are the first to jump on someone when they do not provide the name of the source.

As I posted earlier even Bill Clinton said Hussein had WMD's in 1998.

“The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.” — Bill Clinton in 1998

Libya is still under investigation but everyone knows Obama and his team were lying when he, Hillary and Susan Rice were running around telling everyone it was protestors who were upset with the You Tube video.

That lie is blowing up so now Obama and Biden are throwing Hillary under the bus saying the State Department never told them more security was requested. Even if that is true then why was Hillary standing next to Obama saying it was because of a You Tube Video?

This is a cover up and to say it is being made a politicial issue just shows how desperate you are Al. Since you monitor 30 plus polls a week you know it is not good for Obama.

October 13, 2012 at 2:52 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

rick1: Away with you and those pesky facts.

October 13, 2012 at 2:59 p.m.
ricardo said...

Pesky fact: NO WMD's WERE FOUND IN IRAQ.

October 13, 2012 at 3:05 p.m.
ricardo said...

Pesky fact: Republicans in Congress cut Obama's request for more embassy security by $264 million.

October 13, 2012 at 3:08 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ricardo: Numerous ranking Dems said they were there. Were they lying?

October 13, 2012 at 3:09 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Pesky fact: KELLY: Libya security cut while Vienna embassy gained Chevy Volts Examining the State Department’s misplaced green priorities

KELLY: Libya security cut while Vienna embassy gained Chevy Volts - Washington Times http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/oct/10/kelly-libya-security-cut-while-vienna-embassy-gain/#ixzz29CxjTK22 Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

October 13, 2012 at 3:14 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Pesky fact: Email Shows State Department Rejecting Request of Security Team at US Embassy in Libya

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/10/email-shows-state-department-rejecting-request-of-security-team-at-us-embassy-in-libya/

October 13, 2012 at 3:16 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Fact: State Dept denied repeated requests for more security.

October 13, 2012 at 3:17 p.m.
ricardo said...

What was the outcome? How many WMD's were found in Iraq after the invasion? I realize these are difficult questions to answer for you, because it challenges the validity of pre-war intelligence provided to government leaders (both Dem and Repube).

October 13, 2012 at 3:19 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "As I posted earlier even Bill Clinton said Hussein had WMD's in 1998."

Bill Clinton never said that Hussein had WMD's. He stated repeatedly that the United States would deny Iraq the ability to develop them.

Sounds very much like the rhetoric being spewed about Iran.

"...“The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.” — Bill Clinton in 1998"

I can find no credible source for the above quote, or the year in which it was allegedly offered. It, like all conspiratorial wisdoms, is all over the web on the usual websites, none of which are mainstream or considered credible.

"Libya is still under investigation but everyone knows Obama and his team were lying when he, Hillary and Susan Rice were running around telling everyone it was protestors who were upset with the You Tube video."

Nobody is lying. The head man in intelligence has categorically stated that this is the information that was passed on to him and that he passed up to the White House.

As more details came in, that intelligence was revised.

"That lie is blowing up so now Obama and Biden are throwing Hillary under the bus saying the State Department never told them more security was requested. Even if that is true then why was Hillary standing next to Obama saying it was because of a You Tube Video?"

Because you bozo, that was what she was told too, to begin with.

Nobody but you Republican wingnuts are buying into yet another in a long line of conspiracy theories that most people all over the United States is yawning at.

"This is a cover up and to say it is being made a politicial issue just shows how desperate you are Al. Since you monitor 30 plus polls a week you know it is not good for Obama."

I'm not desperate at all. A bump in the polls means very little, in light of the fact that there are two more debates to go. It's not over until the fat lady sings.

October 13, 2012 at 3:19 p.m.
ricardo said...

Jack_Dennis said..."Fact: State Dept denied repeated requests for more security." October 13, 2012 at 3:17 p.m.

There were probably countless requests for additional security for Middle Eastern diplomatic facilities on the anniversary of 9/11. Were they supposed to send a battalion of soldiers to each one? Hindsight is always 20/20. This was another case of poor intelligence and response to a perceived threat.

October 13, 2012 at 3:24 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Alpo said: "Bill Clinton never said that Hussein had WMD's".

Bill Clinton: Clear Evidence of Iraqi WMD Program

October 13, 2012 at 3:32 p.m.
alprova said...

"No one has yet to argue that the DC-3 would have definitively made a difference for the four Americans killed that night. The security team in question, after all, left Libya in August."

"An “SST” is a Security Support Team, about 16 Special Forces troops assigned to protect officials from the U.S. State Department. This particular SST was assigned to the U.S. Embassy in Tripoli."

October 13, 2012 at 3:33 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Retardo said: "Hindsight is always 20/20. This was another case of poor intelligence and response to a perceived threat".

So the Iraq war was another case of poor intelligence and a perceived threat. So glad you can finally forgive Bush.

October 13, 2012 at 3:41 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

$500 million to Solyndra was a good idea, but a detachment of marines to trouble spots is too much? Obama's a poser, liar and fraud. Ambassadors are appointed by the president, answerable to the president. Give us a break.

October 13, 2012 at 3:48 p.m.
alprova said...

For many years, Saddam Hussein was suspected of having WMD's.

The intelligence gathered at the time that the Congress voted to invade Iraq was false. It contradicted what the weapons inspectors had found, and it wound up being proven to be false when all was said and done.

Who said what, and when is not the issue and it's pointless to argue about it. All the intelligence offered on Iraq was flawed and some of it was outright manufactured, as no one can dispute today.

We destroyed a nation and assisted in deposing its leader under false pretenses, and one man, and one man only made the request of Congress to support him in calling for our military to go in under those false pretenses.

That man was George Walker Bush.

May he rot in Hades for his part in leading this nation into the set of events that led to thousands of our own men and women to give their lives to "help" a nation that now hates us more than they ever did, and for his part in causing the deaths of approximately 100,000 innocent Iraqi lives.

October 13, 2012 at 3:56 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

WOW!! You are TRULY full of it alpo. Talk about conspiracy theorists! Please give factual details about which portion of the intelligence report was "outright manufactured"! What an a_shole you are. Prove the conspiracy bozo!! May YOU rot in hell as well fool! And not soon enough!!

October 13, 2012 at 4:02 p.m.
tderng said...

yeah ricardo,but according to Biden that great intelligence gathering department that couldn't sniff out an obvious,apparently projected in advance,assault in Libya is supposed to keep them appraised of Iran's attempts to make a nuclear weapon?

"We'll know if Iran is close to having a Nuclear weapon" Joe Biden 10/11/2012 Just after he said "we weren't told (by the Intelligence community) that it was a terrorist attack. We were told it was caused by the video."

I don't have much confidence.

October 13, 2012 at 4:06 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Top 5 Crimes of Saddam Hussein

Reprisal Against Dujail

On July 8, 1982, Saddam Hussein was visiting the town of Dujail (50 miles north of Baghdad) when a group of Dawa militants shot at his motorcade. In reprisal for this assassination attempt, the entire town was punished. More than 140 fighting-age men were apprehended and never heard from again. Approximately 1,500 other townspeople, including children, were rounded up and taken to prison, where many were tortured. After a year or more in prison, many were exiled to a southern desert camp. The town itself was destroyed; houses were bulldozed and orchards were demolished.

2 Anfal Campaign

The campaign consisted of eight stages of assault, where up to 200,000 Iraqi troops attacked the area, rounded up civilians, and razed villages. Once rounded up, the civilians were divided into two groups: men from ages of about 13 to 70 and women, children, and elderly men. The men were then shot and buried in mass graves. The women, children, and elderly were taken to relocation camps where conditions were deplorable. In a few areas, especially areas that put up even a little resistance, everyone was killed.

Hundreds of thousands of Kurds fled the area, yet it is estimated that up to 182,000 were killed during the Anfal campaign. Many people consider the Anfal campaign an attempt at genocide.

3

October 13, 2012 at 4:10 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES, the proof is in the pudding.

No weapons capable of mass destruction were ever found.

No enriched Uranium was ever found.

Not even an ounce of yellow cake uranium, that U.S. intelligence claimed he had purchased was ever found.

What more proof do you need to understand that every reason we invaded that sovereign nation was false?

October 13, 2012 at 4:12 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

3 Chemical weapons against Kurds

As early as April 1987, the Iraqis used chemical weapons to remove Kurds from their villages in northern Iraq during the Anfal campaign. It is estimated that chemical weapons were used on approximately 40 Kurdish villages, with the largest of these attacks occurring on March 16, 1988 against the Kurdish town of Halabja.

Beginning in the morning on March 16, 1988 and continuing all night, the Iraqis rained down volley after volley of bombs filled with a deadly mixture of mustard gas and nerve agents on Halabja. Immediate effects of the chemicals included blindness, vomiting, blisters, convulsions, and asphyxiation. Approximately 5,000 women, men, and children died within days of the attacks. Long-term effects included permanent blindness, cancer, and birth defects. An estimated 10,000 lived, but live daily with the disfigurement and sicknesses from the chemical weapons.

Saddam Hussein's cousin, Ali Hassan al-Majid was directly in charge of the chemical attacks against the Kurds, earning him the epithet, "Chemical Ali."

October 13, 2012 at 4:12 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

4 Invasion of Kuwait

On August 2, 1990, Iraqi troops invaded the country of Kuwait. The invasion was induced by oil and a large war debt that Iraq owed Kuwait. The six-week, Persian Gulf War pushed Iraqi troops out of Kuwait in 1991. As the Iraqi troops retreated, they were ordered to light oil wells on fire. Over 700 oil wells were lit, burning over one billion barrels of oil and releasing dangerous pollutants into the air. Oil pipelines were also opened, releasing 10 million barrels of oil into the Gulf and tainting many water sources. The fires and the oil spill created a huge environmental disaster.

October 13, 2012 at 4:13 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

5 Shiite Uprising & the Marsh Arabs

At the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, southern Shiites and northern Kurds rebelled against Hussein's regime. In retaliation, Iraq brutally suppressed the uprising, killing thousands of Shiites in southern Iraq.

As supposed punishment for supporting the Shiite rebellion in 1991, Saddam Hussein's regime killed thousands of Marsh Arabs, bulldozed their villages, and systematically ruined their way of life. The Marsh Arabs had lived for thousands of years in the marshlands located in southern Iraq until Iraq built a network of canals, dykes, and dams to divert water away from the marshes. The Marsh Arabs were forced to flee the area, their way of life decimated.

By 2002, satellite images showed only 7 to 10 percent of the marshlands left. Saddam Hussein is blamed for creating an environmental disaster.

October 13, 2012 at 4:15 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

It wasn't just Bush that thought there were WMD's. Many of your beloved democrats thought so as well. Saddam murdered many more of his own people than did the U.S.A.! How many more of his people would have been raped, murdered and tortured to death if not for the war in Iraq?

October 13, 2012 at 4:20 p.m.
tderng said...

Let me rephrase that.I don't have ANY confidence.

October 13, 2012 at 4:22 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ALPO: With respect to rotting in hades, do you wish that also for JFK, LBJ, Dean Rusk, Robert McNamara, Richard Nixon, et al. No greater crime against our own people was ever perpetrated than Viet Nam. I'm sure you agree.

October 13, 2012 at 5:37 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, the source is only credible when you say it is because you after all the defender of the truth when it suits your agenda.

Al says "Nobody is lying. The head man in intelligence has categorically stated that this is the information that was passed on to him and that he passed up to the White House."

Is this the same intel agency that Biden threw under the bus on Libya during the debate and later said is providing good intelligence on Iran saying Iran is years away from making a nucelar weapon? May want to check how good that Iran intelligence is.

When the Ft. Hood terrorist shooting happened Obama told everyone not to jump to conclusions until all the facts were in. Are you going to tell me that in less then 24 hours Obama had all of the facts about the terror attack in Lybia?

Al says "Because you bozo, that was what she was told too, to begin with." They lied Al, your Prophet Obama instructed Hillary and Susan Rice to go out and tell the American people this was the result of a You Tube video before he had all of the facts is dishonest. Not to mention we spent $70,000 on commercials to say we were sorry is reckless as that caused more unrest and destruction at our Embassies through out the Middle East and also put Americans in grave danger. Why would we do this Al when we didn't have all the facts in? It is a cover up Al. Obama told everyone there was no longer an al-Qaidea after Bin Laden was killed and Biden was running around telling the whole world Bin laden is dead GM is alive. Biden's big mouth is a big part of wy this happened.

Al says "Nobody but you Republican wingnuts are buying into yet another in a long line of conspiracy theories that most people all over the United States is yawning at."

Keep pushing that it is another conspirscy theory. I will bet you most people believe it is a cover up and The Obama Admin is lying. Of course when you are spewing nothing but Obama talking points I wouldn't expect anything less from you.

October 13, 2012 at 5:41 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

"....a long line of conspiracy theories." That's amazing. Even for you, ALPO.

October 13, 2012 at 5:50 p.m.
degage said...

Biden looks just like jeff Dunhams dummy Walter.

October 13, 2012 at 6:05 p.m.
conservative said...

Biden the moral moron, part 2 :

But while that was the most astounding part of Biden's answer, it wasn't the only thing worth noting. Right before he expounded on his belief in legalized homicide because he "just refuse[s] to impose [his personal views] on others," Biden had announced, "My religion defines who I am, and I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. It has particularly informed my social doctrine."

Uh...wait a second. Biden is proudly touting the fact that the aggressive government redistribution schemes he favors are motivated by his church's teachings on caring for the needy. In other words, he has no problem "imposing his personal views on others" when it comes to the welfare state.

It's an interesting worldview, isn't it? Government-sponsored theft is legitimate on moral grounds, but government protection of innocent, defenseless life is unreasonable. That's the modern Democrat Party.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2012/10/bidens_churchstate_schizophrenia.html#ixzz29DmHdQPh

October 13, 2012 at 6:38 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

conservative: Joey memorized that line and has no idea what it means.

October 13, 2012 at 6:40 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Degage Tries to be Funny: "Biden looks just like jeff Dunhams dummy Walter."

Pathetic try, Degage. . . Indeed, there were some much funnier lines going around on “Women sound off on Twitter” at Huffington Post on the night of Vice Presidential Debate:

“Ok, I’m covering this from a totally intellectual angle. WTF is that pointy hairy thing on Ryan’s forehead.”

“Biden has not taken a sip of water once. Ryan is gulping it down like he’s in the desert . . . Or a liar.”

“I cannot have a VP with a pointy hairline. . . And when he says values he sounds like Kevin Arnold.”

October 13, 2012 at 7:53 p.m.
degage said...

laurel, I guess you haven't seen a side by side of Walter and Biden. So you had to print what you thought was funny about Ryan. Tit for Tat.

October 13, 2012 at 8:38 p.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennis wrote: "No greater crime against our own people was ever perpetrated than Viet Nam. I'm sure you agree."

On that we do indeed agree.

October 13, 2012 at 9:18 p.m.

The Obama Administration's dishonesty and their naive view of human nature, of world religions, and of power politics on the world stage are costing the lives of American troops week after week, and sabotaging America's ability to be a voice for justice and peace among the nations. It will take decades to recover from the Intern's debacles.

October 13, 2012 at 9:27 p.m.
alprova said...

"Al, the source is only credible when you say it is because you after all the defender of the truth when it suits your agenda."

Not so at all. If Fox News won't even report it, it is absolutely incredible.

"Is this the same intel agency that Biden threw under the bus on Libya during the debate and later said is providing good intelligence on Iran saying Iran is years away from making a nucelar weapon? May want to check how good that Iran intelligence is."

Some of you people need to face a little reality. Not every time that an attack is planned, do the terrorists make an announcement that they are going to do it. They have to know by now that there are moles embedded within their ranks. It is certainly plausible to imagine a scenario that involves keeping their mouths shut.

"When the Ft. Hood terrorist shooting happened Obama told everyone not to jump to conclusions until all the facts were in. Are you going to tell me that in less then 24 hours Obama had all of the facts about the terror attack in Lybia?"

Absolutely not, but you and I both know that had he not addressed the nation with some information on the incident, that howling would have been heard on the Moon.

As it was, they were given what they had by the intelligence gathering agencies, and they relayed it. Every time there was something offered, it came with the announcement that an investigation was ongoing and that updates would come when more was known.

"They lied Al, your Prophet Obama instructed Hillary and Susan Rice to go out and tell the American people this was the result of a You Tube video before he had all of the facts is dishonest."

Believe what you wish. What you believe is of no consequence.

"Not to mention we spent $70,000 on commercials to say we were sorry is reckless as that caused more unrest and destruction at our Embassies through out the Middle East and also put Americans in grave danger."

Yada, yada, yada...

"Why would we do this Al when we didn't have all the facts in? It is a cover up Al. Obama told everyone there was no longer an al-Qaidea after Bin Laden was killed and Biden was running around telling the whole world Bin laden is dead GM is alive. Biden's big mouth is a big part of wy this happened."

Blah, blah, blah....blah, blah.

"Keep pushing that it is another conspirscy theory. I will bet you most people believe it is a cover up and The Obama Admin is lying. Of course when you are spewing nothing but Obama talking points I wouldn't expect anything less from you."

Tit for tat. You're like a broken record. It's pointless for you and I to discuss this, for you are so convinced that anyone up in the White House has a good reason to lie about what happened.

Well they don't and they didn't. They related the information they had as they got it. It's just that simple.

October 13, 2012 at 9:31 p.m.
miraweb said...

A good article in the WSJ makes the point that the winner of the 2012 election may be the guy that doesn't have to deal with 2013.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444897304578046922633657256.html

October 13, 2012 at 9:57 p.m.
alprova said...

As Massachusetts Governor, Romney Was Often Away

"BOSTON — When the ceiling collapsed in the Big Dig tunnel here, Gov. Mitt Romney was at his vacation home in New Hampshire. When the Bush administration warned that the nation was at high risk of a terror attack in December 2003, he was at his Utah retreat. And for much of the time the legislature was negotiating changes to his landmark health care bill, he was on the road."

Read the rest at;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/us/politics/mitt-romney-often-away-when-he-was-governor.html?pagewanted=1&_r=0

October 13, 2012 at 9:59 p.m.
alprova said...

Breaking: Billy Graham Endorses Romney Then Scrubs Site Calling Mormonism A ‘Cult’

"illy Graham, on Thursday night, endorsed Mitt Romney for president, and shortly thereafter, his website was scrubbed of a statement Graham or his organization made calling Mormonism a "cult."..."

Read more at;

http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/breaking-billy-graham-endorses-romney-then-scrubs-site-calling-mormonism-a-cult/politics/2012/10/12/51106?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheNewCivilRightsMovement+(The+New+Civil+Rights+Movement)

October 13, 2012 at 10:10 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Yeah, Alpo. Romney bought Graham off. Promised him a million a year for life.

October 14, 2012 at 1:21 a.m.
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