published Sunday, October 14th, 2012

The Paint Job

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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AndrewLohr said...

Obama's plan: save money by paying doctors less. Let system go broke. GOP plan: keep the system for the old, bring in something sustainable for the young. A small voucher under your or my control may serve better than a big bureaucratic system.

October 14, 2012 at 12:08 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Sick, old people are a drag on earnings. Taking care of seniors is crushing the small hospital industry. The GOP believes in abortion, it's just an extremely late term version that kicks in at 65 years of age.

October 14, 2012 at 12:22 a.m.
hotdiggity said...

Good one Clay!

October 14, 2012 at 1:39 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

"Well, we do provide care for people who don't have insurance.If someone has a heart attack, they don't sit in their apartment and die. We pick them up in an ambulance, and take them to the hospital and give them care. And different states have different ways of providing for that care." - Mitt Romney

I don't care what side of the political fence you're on, there's no way to defend a stupid, outrageous comment like that. But I'm sure you boot licking baggers will stand by your man regardless.

Mittens is so pitifully out of touch that he doesn't have a clue what the average working person has to endure in the real world. He has never been without health insurance a day in his life, and he has been fortunate enough to afford the absolute best health care that money can buy. He cannot begin to empathize with the average American. There's nothing wrong with being rich, but when you lack any sense of empathy or understanding, you're just a rotten, soul-less, egotistical slob.

And it's not just a matter of compassion. If we had universal health care, people could go to the doctor for check-ups and preventative treatment, thereby vastly reducing serious illnesses and conditions. Waiting to treat someone in the ER is the worst, most expensive, least effective means of treatment. For those of you whining about how your tax dollars shouldn't have to pay for the uninsured, well, you're paying for them anyway - a large part of those exorbitant hospital costs incurred from the uninsured are passed on to the insured in the form of higher premiums.

In the meantime, let's all take pride in the fact that we are the only country in the industrialized world that doesn't provide health care for its citizens. God bless Amurika. We're afflicted with so much stupidity, we certainly need her blessing!

October 14, 2012 at 1:56 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ricky: What a load of it.

October 14, 2012 at 3:11 a.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennis wrote: "ricky: What a load of it."

Rickaroo, that was a fantastic post, and it outlined in a few paragraphs EXACTLY the problems that many people experience with the current system of health care in this nation.

Anyone who is uninsured, who experiences a heart attack, who is carted off to the hospital in an ambulance, who let's say is treated by inserting a stent or two to open up those blocked arteries, will be greeted with an ambulance bill for a grand or more, and a hospital bill that would likely be a full year's earnings, shortly after returning home.

That is enough to trigger another coronary event, in and of itself.

Last year, I had five strokes: Three minor and two major. On one of my major events, I was transferred to Erlanger from Hutcheson by ambulance. That eight mile ride was billed at $1,100.00.

When I contacted the service to discuss the bill, I quipped rather quickly that I wished that I had called a cab to take me to Erlanger, although the hospital would not allow it at the time. Believe me, I asked.

The five hospital bills I received totaled more than $100,000.00.

I've been hospitalized two times this year, once for congestive heart failure, and a week later for massive pulmonary edema. Between those two visits, which required spending several days in intensive care, and the follow-up visits required to stabilize my conditions, I have racked up another $100,000.00 in bills.

Thankfully, I am doing very well and just received a three month reprieve from having to shuffle off to one doctor or another every few days, but I have to take 14 different prescription medications, twice a day, to keep my body from revolting. My co-pays amount to about $600.00 a month.

All of my hospitalizations occurred before I was able to secure health care insurance three months ago. So, I'll be working to pay off these massive medical bills for the rest of my life.

Despite regular payments to medical providers, I am fielding calls from bill collectors on a daily basis on the unpaid amounts. One collection agency calls me every single day of the week, and they are told the same thing every day.

"There is no need in your company to call me, for I do not deal with collection agencies...period. All my payments will go to the medical provider." Click.

I have several local physicians to thank for saving my life more than once. Yes, the system of health care has served me well, despite my being uninsured. But I'm sure that I will not be able to pay off all these bills before I take the eternal celestial dirt nap, unless I live for another twenty years, which is very doubtful.

Due to a high value life insurance policy that I purchased years ago when I was in very good health, I am now literally worth far more dead than alive.

God bless the United States medical system of health care, which has been responsible for turning people into indentured servants, more so than anywhere on the planet.

October 14, 2012 at 4:48 a.m.
MTJohn said...

It really comes down to the choice between a health industry or converting to a system of health care. The great fallacy in advocating free market solutions is that our health industry is not sustainable - it will collapse because most of us can't afford it.

It should also be pointed out the current health industry was not built by the free market. It is a system in which we socialized the research and development and privatized the profit margins.

October 14, 2012 at 6:50 a.m.
EaTn said...

While growing up years ago on the plateau, this toon is typical of the only emergency ambulance service provided by the local funeral homes.

It should be crystal clear to the voters where the right-wingers stand on medical care for the 47%. Their hypocritical position on abortion while denying health care to preserve life is a joke at best.

October 14, 2012 at 6:54 a.m.
alprova said...

As Romney Repeats Trade Message, Bain Maintains China Ties

The tale of Asimco Technologies, an auto parts manufacturer whose plants dot eastern China, would seem to underscore Mitt Romney’s campaign-trail complaint that China’s manufacturing juggernaut is costing America jobs.

Read more at;

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/10/us/politics/as-romney-repeats-trade-message-bain-maintains-china-ties.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&;

October 14, 2012 at 8:04 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova....It does sound as though you received the right care on time with good results. That is good, I am glad it worked out for you that way. That is the way things are currently designed to work. You now have a long term financial obligation as many with similar experiences have unless they have TNCARE, medicare or medicaid which reduces the obligation or eliminates it.

How much do you think the government should take from each of us, including your neighbors, friends and family to help you and others pay for the care received? Apparently I am doing my part since my premiums next year will be around 22% more than this year with increases in co-pays and deductibles. The tax and eventual cost impact of Obama care remains to be seen.

There is a better and more manageable way than that described in the approximately 2600 pages of the AHCA with the potential of increasing the deficit and debt beyond anything imagined while failing to provide as people perceive it will. I know neither of us are going to convince the other that we are right and I am not trying to do that, just expressing a personal view and resentment of yet another decision a central government makes for everyone.

October 14, 2012 at 8:28 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Obama's China Problem... Illegal Contributions & Corruption?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10171451-38.html

Who is Jacob Lew? Like Predecessors, Obama's New Chief of Staff Has Financial Industry Background, Ties

http://www.ibtimes.com/who-jacob-lew-predecessors-obamas-new-chief-staff-has-financial-industry-background-ties-393714

Seems Obama has some ties to china himself. And is Romney still working for Bain?

October 14, 2012 at 8:31 a.m.
rolando said...

alpo, you are a whiny hoot...and a typical Progressive grasshopper; but you know that. Play today and let tomorrow take care of itself, right? Don't plan...just whine later, right?

Some years back, in a tirade against me, you b_tched on this forum that military members -- me in particular -- became "a drain on society" [WTTE] the day of their well-earned-with-their-life, paid retirement. Yet here you are, sucking on the taxpayers' teat and calling for more "free" medical care...talk about hypocrites!

You have refused to obtain health insurance for you and your family repeatedly over the decades...if memory serves, a family member died because of that refusal. You now depend on the taxpayers' dime for your own old-age health care and gripe because people like you have driven up the cost of hospital care. You think the hospitals absorb the cost? Not bloody likely. When you finally croak, those bills you have racked up will largely go unpaid. The hospitals will again stay in business through even higher bills because of you.

Kudos to your excellent healthcare providers.

Under the oversight of ObamaCare's Death Panel, it is questionable if you would have survived your first stroke...those over 70 showing up in an emergency room will receive only "supportive" care, aka "make you comfortable while you die".

My military service [the one you belittled] covers my healthcare and that of my family...that and all those decades paying into MediCare. Payback is a b_itch, isn't it?

October 14, 2012 at 8:35 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Under the oversight of ObamaCare's Death Panel, it is questionable if you would have survived your first stroke...those over 70 showing up in an emergency room will receive only "supportive" care, aka "make you comfortable while you die".

provide evidence for this please

October 14, 2012 at 8:48 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

BOMBSHELL: OBAMA.COM OWNED BY BUNDLER IN SHANGHAI WITH BUSINESS TIES TO CHINESE GOVERNMENT

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/10/08/Obama-com-Owned-by-Bundler-in-China-with-Business-Ties-to-Chinese-Government

October 14, 2012 at 8:50 a.m.
ricardo said...

harp- How much should the government take from each one of us to pay for roads, bridges, national defense, food safety inspectors,etc?

rickaroo (my Australian alter ego?) is right: The current system is on an unsustainable path. Health care costs must be brought under control.

October 14, 2012 at 8:52 a.m.
fairmon said...

MTJohn said...

The great fallacy in advocating free market solutions is that our health industry is not sustainable - it will collapse because most of us can't afford it.

MQTJohn....If we can't afford it what magic makes us able to afford the taxes to support the system. If we all can't afford something should those that can be denied. Taking away the free market incentive to find better care and treatment methods will certainly reduce the cost of health care.

Is this what you are suggesting? Stop all work on new medicines, stop all development work on new treatments, quit allowing those trying to discover and develop better methods and treatments to deduct R&D cost. Yep, that would control the cost. The government could take over and manage all the hospitals, physicians groups and other in the health care field and provide all of us with whatever taxes enabled them to provide. They could make sure those working or investing in the health care field know they are in it in order to provide skilled care and be benevolent, not to be well compensated or rewarded for taking investment risk.

You know, had that been in place for the past 20 years Alprova would not be indebted as he described. However, the reason for not being in debt may be he did not survive since those life saving methods would not have been available.

October 14, 2012 at 8:57 a.m.
delmar said...

Jack_Dennis said - ricky: What a load of it.

How so?

October 14, 2012 at 9:03 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Barack Obama's presidency 'has not helped cause of black people in US' Far from ushering in a new post-racial age, say studies, historic election did not lead to advancement of civil rights

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/13/barack-obama-presidency-black-people

So much for that assumption from the left.

October 14, 2012 at 9:06 a.m.
fairmon said...

ricardo said... harp- How much should the government take from each one of us to pay for roads, bridges, national defense, food safety inspectors,etc?

Federal roads and bridges should be user pays with tolls. Defense, food, water and other common protection interstate activities that essentially equally benefit everyone should be whatever is necessary to assure the responsibility is met. Federal government should not be involved in issues that can and should be handled by the states.

October 14, 2012 at 9:07 a.m.
ricardo said...

Obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, laziness (lack of exercise) are running at epidemic levels in this country. Perhaps this is a result of our lifestyle and cheap, readily available (albeit poor quality) food. Our healthcare system needs to focus on prevention and wellness, instead of treating chronic diseases that have progressed to latter stages, when they are extremely expensive to treat.

October 14, 2012 at 9:10 a.m.
ricardo said...

harp3339 said..."Federal roads and bridges should be user pays with tolls."

By your method, new roads or bridges could never be built, since you can't collect tolls on something that does not exist. How would you finance the construction costs? Are you suggesting that future users should pick up a shovel and a a hardhat and start digging?

Are states going to decide if prescription drugs are safe? Would Massachusetts decide that a drug compounding company is exempt from regulation, which would lead to fungal meningitis in patients in other states?

October 14, 2012 at 9:14 a.m.
dougmusn said...

I am of a vintage and have worked in places remote enough to have seen a time when the ambulance service WAS provided by the undertaker. Drive the patient to the hospital and corpse back to the funeral home. Very efficient. It did solve the problem of deadheading, though. Still, it struck me as very strange.

For AndrewLohr: A small voucher for care MIGHT work but it would be insufficient to purchase adequate health insurance. The less-than-affluent in this country are squeezed between a fear of illness making life in the words of Hobbes "nasty, brutish and short" on the one hand and impoverishment on the other. I have seen real people choosing between medicine and food. I have seen tragically huge health care bills. I have seen the arbitrariness of insurance companies seeking to deny needed care (what they call "medical loss") to save their money. We can do much better.

A program of TRUE primary preventive care would cut costs at least a third in 30 years. But that's the problem. We would need to understand the necessity of INVESTING in programs now to reduce costs later. The types of actions with lasting health benefits could include a variety of options such as:

ZONING: Encourage development to intermix residential and commercial space to get us out of our cars. Discourage building tract housing more than 1/4 mile from shops and stores. TRANSPORTATION: Always add a BIKE LANE when widening a road. Infill safe bike/walk lanes in existing roads. FOOD: Develop and deploy nutrition programs in schools including school gardens and yes, home economics. Increase farmer's markets. Cap agriculture subsidies at $500K per entity to reduce the growth of "industrial food". ATHLETICS: Increase emphasis of sport in the youngest children and in adults instead of focusing our support on HS-college football teams. Bring back community sports activities. DIRECT CARE: Free immunizations per CDC recommendations every week in locations close to residences. Develop "Shotmobiles" alongside bookmobiles. Subsidize providers so they can pass through cash to patients--at the first preventive care visit every year, the doctor pays YOU $10. Pay a patient $10 for a visit to discuss living wills and end-of-life care (this is NOT the feared 'death panel' regardless of what any might say--a discussion does not require any specific conclusion).

I could go on but you get the idea--health care and sickness care are two different things. I would much prefer to support all methods to keep people healthy than pay the exorbitant costs of medical rescue. I would also prefer to pay for all actions with scientifically proven benefit first before paying for other items where the technological imperative drives up costs without a concomitant increase in value in health.

This would be an iterative and recursive process, both messy and bumpy in execution with successes and failures. But, it would be better.

October 14, 2012 at 9:48 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

“It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now … Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus.”

I wonder if alpo and the liberal gang can tell us who stated that quote.

October 14, 2012 at 9:55 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

JFK, and he should have. The top bracket was taxed at 91%. It was dropped to 77% in 1964. So, then, what is it now? Are we in the same situation? I think not.

October 14, 2012 at 10:03 a.m.
mymy said...

23 Days to Go!

It is still the economy/jobs/foreign policy/direction of country/National Security here/abroad and the growing debt.

Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock

Without a strong economy nothing will be possible.

Romney/Ryan 2012

October 14, 2012 at 10:08 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I was thinking-if I and my neighbors were taxed like Romney (14%) we could collectively create several jobs-yard care, house cleaning, interior renovation; local contractors would be able to hire more people. Even with the modest incomes represented by my neighborhood. Add to that: eating out (local restaurants and wait staff) entertainment (local theater) shopping (bookstores, wine, local crafts). Wow-that makes a lot of us "job creators", does it not?

October 14, 2012 at 10:32 a.m.
ricardo said...

dougmusn, good post at 9:48am

October 14, 2012 at 10:34 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

That's right. And it proves that lowering taxes creates more revenue. That also proves that uncontrolled spending is killing us. $1 trillion deficits every year cannot be sustained no matter how high government raises taxes.

Obamacare adds untold trillions of dollars to a new entitlement program that cannot possibly work. You'd be hard pressed to find a program that the government has control of that has stayed within it's original cost predictions.

October 14, 2012 at 10:36 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

I'm thinking that ALPO is a fictional character. NO REAL PERSON would blather so much personal information. Alpie, maybe you should cut back on those bonuses you're paying your hundreds of employees. Redirect those funds to paying your bills. You're insufferable, man.

October 14, 2012 at 10:40 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

The 15% you speak of is capital gains tax. Which has already been taxed at the income tax level once. That old lie from the left doesn't hold water. Why should the same money get taxed every year at the higher income tax level? So unless you have investments and interest on your investments that get taxed more than your income, you have no argument. Apples and oranges.

October 14, 2012 at 10:45 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

No, Toes-it shows that the "job creators" may not be the uber-wealthy. They have their low taxes now. How about we up theirs and lower ours and give us a chance to "create jobs"? I pay twice the tax rate that Romney pays, and it is a large amount compared to what I must pay for basic living-food, house, transportation, health insurance, utilities.

October 14, 2012 at 10:47 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Yeah Jack. I still think he's full of it. He's probably ranking member of the "reelect Obama" campaign of wherever. Talking points straight out of Obama's website. He sure carved a nice little "fairy tale" life for himself.

October 14, 2012 at 10:54 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

If you're earning $388,350 a year, your paying 35% in federal income tax. Anything lower than that pays a lower rate still. Show us where Romney pays 15% on his income taxes. That's a bunch of malarkey.

October 14, 2012 at 11:01 a.m.
ricardo said...

The sad part about this debate is that there are still some folks in this country who think that health care is a right reserved only for those who can afford it. This is wrong. Every living person in this country deserves to get well when they become ill or injured. Period. If they cannot afford it, the it is up to the rest of us to help them to pay for it. This the same "redistribution" system that pays for a poor old grandma who gets a $100,000 bill to treat her breast cancer. She obviously didn't pay that much into the system when she was working, so the difference is subsidized from you and me.

Health care is a God given right. Jesus would help the least of His neighbors. Why won't you?

October 14, 2012 at 11:12 a.m.
mymy said...

JD: Figured out some time ago that there was something squirrely about Alpo. I suspect he could be a TFP employee/friend etc. Some others are suspect also.

October 14, 2012 at 11:13 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

He said he paid 14%. That is probably because he has enough wealth that he can live off the proceeds. Most of us must earn a salary. I am not poor, but until I retired I was making a decent living and my tax bracket was 28%. The tipping point in wealth is making enough to invest-a large investment will make enough to live on. Romney's wealth fits that category. I am not saying he shouldn't have it, but the trickle down isn't working. The average joe pumps money into the economy by using local business. If the average joe has less, he will not hire locals or shop local businesses as much. He will put off the house renovations, do his own yard work, eat at home more and eat out less. I am a big proponent of using local-big chains enrich the pockets of CEOs more than locals, (they do hire locally and sales tax helps locally) but if you want to help small businesses, give the average joe more disposable income.

October 14, 2012 at 11:16 a.m.
fairmon said...

posted yesterday about Libya....

This is a cover up and to say it is being made a political issue just shows how desperate you are Al. Since you monitor 30 plus polls a week you know it is not good for Obama.

I hope it is a cover up since if it isn't that is a more frightening and worse failure. Biden exclaiming we didn't know about a request for more security and protection which may be true and says a lot about what is going on in Washington D.C. The fact they thought it resulted spontaneously from a video which likely had not been seen by the heavily armed attackers is enough to scare the heck out of any person with clear and logical thinking.

I would feel better if they said we knew of the request for more protection but made a judgement error in not providing it. I rather hear them say we knew all that but wanted to keep Americans from panicking and being fearful.

October 14, 2012 at 11:24 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Re: Libya-There was a lot of misinformation going around in the hours following the attack, and some of it was never addressed (heck, Sarah Palin said on Fox that the Ambassador had been sodomized before being killed, for dog's sake, a claim NEVER substantiated and never recanted by Fox). That said, if the Ambassador and his staff requested more security and never got it, heads should roll. All the way to the top if necessary. But let's deal with facts, not internet rumors or early information that has since been corrected.

October 14, 2012 at 11:30 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Why do people like Bennett think the government is the only entity that can manage health care effectively? If the government is so darn good, why do their programs always have to mandatory. What is wrong with giving people control of their own money?

Big Government Socialism - Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

Anyone that supports these programs and talks about freedom is lying to you!

October 14, 2012 at 11:31 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

mymy: Alpie a TFP ringer, huh? Could be. Now there's a job to be proud of. bwahahahaha

October 14, 2012 at 11:35 a.m.
fairmon said...

ricardo said... harp3339 said..."Federal roads and bridges should be user pays with tolls."

By your method, new roads or bridges could never be built, since you can't collect tolls on something that does not exist. How would you finance the construction costs? Are you suggesting that future users should pick up a shovel and a a hardhat and start digging?

two options:

1-Government build then recover the tax payers investment with tolls.

2-Contract with an independent operation that builds, maintains and charges a toll for use to recover their investment plus a profit treated like a regulated utility. The success of this has been demonstrated in the U.S. and other countries.

Borrowing money and trillions in debt misleads people and causes them to think the government can and should provide all their needs and wants.

October 14, 2012 at 11:35 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

BIN LADEN'S DEAD!! Obama's only foreign policy brag was that he killed Bin Laden, and thereby diminished AL-Qaeda. So by admitting that AL-Qaeda was behind the attack, he was admitting that his only foreign policy achievement was, in fact, a load of crap.

So to get a chance to blame our free speech fell right in line with Obama's view of "blame America first".

October 14, 2012 at 11:38 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

lkeithlu said... "if the Ambassador and his staff requested more security and never got it, heads should roll. All the way to the top if necessary."

Should, but do you believe they will? One guy stepped down over Fast & Furious. That was a huge debacle that should have resulted in a house cleaning right to the top of the Justice Department.

Lets predict now that one person in the State Department will be the scapegoat and the real culprits will go unpunished. The Obama administration is a master of avoiding responsibility. Surely this whole thing was the fault of a video. I am surprised I have not heard them blame the Bush administration.

October 14, 2012 at 11:38 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Any administration that brazenly lies to the American public should be absolutely rejected by the voters. We have been conditioned to accept lies as a part of politics. This is very dangerous. I don't care if it is a democrat or republican. If they are caught in a bold faced lie to the American voters they should be removed from office and convicted for conspiracy to commit fraud, at the least.

October 14, 2012 at 11:41 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

BRP: All true. But The Community Organizer seems to be made of teflon. His minions and millions of teat sucking backers (not to mention the MSM) give him a pass on everything.

October 14, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
fairmon said...

ricardo said.....Are states going to decide if prescription drugs are safe? Would Massachusetts decide that a drug compounding company is exempt from regulation, which would lead to fungal meningitis in patients in other states?

See comment regarding interstate commerce applicable to food, water and would include the FDA role. There is less buyer beware than there should be....people will buy anything because the government hasn't told them not to. I have no sympathy for Madoffs victims since they failed to investigate before investing, he used their greed to fleece them. He is getting what he deserves but he should not have been able to be so successful.

October 14, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
ricardo said...

BiRP-

Your libertarian colors are starting to fade. You should be advocating to get the hell out of all foreign countries and let them fend for themselves, and focus on problems here in the homeland. What true libertarian would believe that the US has any interests in a cesspool like Libya?

October 14, 2012 at 11:47 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I disagree, Harp. Unscrupulous business practices lure in unsuspecting consumers and rob them of everything. Eventually they are exposed but there are still victims. We depend on the government to take a role in educating consumers AND regulating businesses to some extent. Same goes for health care. I don't want to government to provide all health care, but I don't want to be rejected for coverage because I am not "good for the bottom line" of a for-profit business. I also don't want to purchase a product that is unsafe, and before there was government regulation, a lot of businesses sold unsafe products to unwary consumers, resulting in countless injuries and deaths. Is there too much regulation? In some areas, probably so. But to leave safety in the hands of business that can make more money if they cut corners? No. There has to be a balance, and we don't have it in health care.

October 14, 2012 at 11:56 a.m.
ricardo said...

harp- How were the meningitis victims supposed to know that their drugs were tainted? Do you have any sympathy for them?

October 14, 2012 at 11:56 a.m.
ricardo said...

keith-

The conservatards will retort that the citizens can sue the company for negligence in producing unsafe products or drugs, but they are also the same ones who want stronger tort reform, to protect these very same companies from liability.

So, weaker regulation, combined with stronger tort reform, equals no protection for consumers.

October 14, 2012 at 12:01 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

With 30+ million now on the government Obamacare, and no more doctors to see them, the very first thing that will have to happen is rationing. And then the next thing will be cost. And just how will the government decide to cut cost? Of course by forcing us to eat what they say, drink what they say, how much we can smoke (if at all).etc....

So by government running healthcare, that in itself opens the door for the government to mandate all sorts of "behavior adjustments" on us. Which is the main reason for the urgency of the healthcare takeover in the first place. Alpo's blather about "Obama just wants to help us because he cares" crap is just that, crap. It's all about having more control of the American people.

October 14, 2012 at 12:09 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ricardo: Great solution. Do nothing, huh? Reasonable tort reform would not preclude righteous suits. You must be an ambulance chaser.

October 14, 2012 at 12:10 p.m.
ricardo said...

Toecheese-

Your health insurance company already tells you what to do. If you had a pre-existing condition, tough luck. If you smoke, tough luck. If you lose your job, tough luck.

October 14, 2012 at 12:12 p.m.
ricardo said...

Jack_Dennis said..."ricardo: Great solution. Do nothing, huh? Reasonable tort reform would not preclude righteous suits. You must be an ambulance chaser."

No, just someone wants justice when a doctor amputates the wrong body part, or a company puts profits ahead of safety and injures me or mine. And who gets to decide what is a "righteous suit"? The plaintiff or the defendant?

October 14, 2012 at 12:16 p.m.
alprova said...

"alpo, you are a whiny hoot...and a typical Progressive grasshopper; but you know that. Play today and let tomorrow take care of itself, right? Don't plan...just whine later, right?"

Are you under some impression that my circumstance is due to a lack of planning? You would be wrong Sir.

You know about my wife, or you should if you had been paying attention. I had medical insurance in place on the day that my wife had a car crash where she was seriously injured. The minute that Memorial Hospital called my insurance company to approve the coverage following to transfer her from the ER to ICU, the insurance company canceled a policy that I had in place for more than 20 years.

I was paying $1,300 a month for that insurance. I sold a very lucrative business to a friend to pay more than $480,000 in medical bills over the next four years. I took a job to provide health care coverage. I was fired from that job, point blank, on the same day that Barack Obama was inaugurated, because of the medical claims related to my wife's care.

We were denied insurance numerous times since 2009. Then my condition took a turn for the worse last year. Thanks to ObamaCare, through the PCIP pooled plan that the HHS and the State of Georgia has set up, I am now insured once again. My wife, now fully recovered and back at work, is insured through her employer.

"Some years back, in a tirade against me, you b_tched on this forum that military members -- me in particular -- became "a drain on society" [WTTE] the day of their well-earned-with-their-life, paid retirement. Yet here you are, sucking on the taxpayers' teat and calling for more "free" medical care...talk about hypocrites!"

Sir, not one penny of those bills I have accumulated has been paid by one taxpayer, nor have I applied for any assistance.

You still refuse to accept that you are indeed a taxpayer teat sucker and you have been your entire working life. The Gov't has always supported you 100%, does it not?

"You have refused to obtain health insurance for you and your family repeatedly over the decades...if memory serves, a family member died because of that refusal."

I have no idea what you are referring to. I have had two, three year lapses in health care insurance in the past decade. No one in my family died due to a lack of insurance. My first wife and son were killed in a car crash in 1977, when struck head-on by a drunk driver.

"You now depend on the taxpayers' dime for your own old-age health care and gripe because people like you have driven up the cost of hospital care. You think the hospitals absorb the cost? Not bloody likely."

Again, Sir...I haven't asked a damn soul to pay my medical bills. I didn't ask to be fired from a job that provided health care benefits. I didn't ask to get sick. I didn't ask to be saddled with pre-existing health issues that insurance companies turned their nose up to me, refusing to sell me a private policy.

(To be cont.)

October 14, 2012 at 12:22 p.m.
alprova said...

(cont.)

"When you finally croak, those bills you have racked up will largely go unpaid. The hospitals will again stay in business through even higher bills because of you."

If I live long enough, those bills will eventually be paid in full. When I die, the life insurance I have in place will pay them off and leave my wife in good shape for the rest of her life.

"Under the oversight of ObamaCare's Death Panel, it is questionable if you would have survived your first stroke...those over 70 showing up in an emergency room will receive only "supportive" care, aka "make you comfortable while you die"."

Rolando, that is utter B.S. and you know it. The death panel claim has been debunked to the nth degree. Clearly, you have not read the bill yourself to discover the facts.

I'm 53 years old by the way, so I'm not in danger of being exterminated by any mythical death panel anytime soon.

And given that I still write checks to the IRS each and every quarter, such a mythical panel making a decision to kill me off would cut off a revenue stream that helps support yourself.

"My military service [the one you belittled] covers my healthcare and that of my family...that and all those decades paying into MediCare. Payback is a b_itch, isn't it?"

I remind you that every penny you "paid" into Medicare was a giveback to the Gov't that supplied you with every one of those pennies from start to finish.

You can pretend all day long that you just paid me back, but the fact is that I am one of millions of people who have been supporting you most of your working life, because for the past 32 years, I have actually had to sit down and write checks to the IRS each and every quarter for income that I generated myself. You received a Gov't check.

I'm sorry that you cannot understand the difference.

October 14, 2012 at 12:22 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

My insurance company has NEVER asked me any of those questions. Not a one. I don't know what the hell you're talking about. My wife and I are perfectly happy with our insurance company. Get a clue. More liberal lies and talking points make you look pathetic.

October 14, 2012 at 12:23 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

And why wouldn't the government run healthcare system put cost savings ahead of safety? Everything about Obamacare will have to revolve around cutting costs. We're going to hear the same liberals that cried and whined that we need Obamacare crying and whining about the cost being too high.

October 14, 2012 at 12:34 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

ricardo said... "BiRP-Your libertarian colors are starting to fade. You should be advocating to get the hell out of all foreign countries and let them fend for themselves, and focus on problems here in the homeland. What true libertarian would believe that the US has any interests in a cesspool like Libya?"

That's BuRP, ricardo!

Actually, I do advocate for getting (our military) the hell out of foreign countries, except as is necessary to protect our diplomatic presence there. The "need" for us to maintain a military presence in so many places around the globe is just one more lie we have been conditioned to believe through decades of repetition.

Why are we still in Germany and Japan? We take the burden of paying fully for their own defence off of them so they can further bloat their social programs and create an artificial model for the leftists to point at as an "example" for us to follow.

October 14, 2012 at 12:40 p.m.
miraweb said...

I worked three years in an emergency room. We had a policy of seeing everyone who came through the door, but the hospital up the road shipped people all over the place that they didn't want to see.

The law finally changed after a lot of people arrived dead after riding around all night looking for help. Hospitals didn't have to treat everyone, but they were now required to at least take a look at people, first. If you had life-threatening bleeding or an infection, they had to see you that night.

Otherwise - too bad.

That same hospital had a patient who was badly injured in an accident and had to have pins put in to hold fractured bones together. The hospital refused to see her to take the pins out because she didn't have insurance and she now had an unpaid bill for the emergency care.

In that case, the woman tried to take the pins out herself and got a horrible infection. When the story hit the news the hospital suddenly decided they might be able to help her out.

A hospital may treat you - but they don't have to treat you for free. If your life is not threatened, they don't have to treat you at all - and they don't have to follow up with you later.

Most will make every effort to get back whatever they can from you. They may be seeking reimbursement from Medicaid at the same time. You might not even be aware that they have filed a Medicaid claim on your behalf.

They can take you to court to seize your assets. They can sell your bills to collectors who can hound you until the statute of limitations runs out.

Not exactly what you need when you are dealing with a serious illness.

Mitt's idea that hospitals are in the habit of sucking it up and writing the bills off has no connection to reality.

An adult can decide to forgo care (if she or he is conscious, that is).

If you've got kids and don't seek medical care, you can be charged with negligence.

Thirty years ago there were still hospitals that had agreements for free care. These hospitals received grants to help them build and expand. In exchange, the promised to offer free care to the community for a certain length of time.

Most of those hospitals repaid that obligation decades ago.

If you are retired, your company can decide to drop retirees insurance coverage. If you lose your job, you can lose your health insurance. If you keep your job, your company can decide to stop covering health care.

We are all one illness from financial disaster, no matter what kind of insurance you have.

October 14, 2012 at 12:43 p.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennis wrote: "I'm thinking that ALPO is a fictional character. NO REAL PERSON would blather so much personal information."

I've "blathered" nothing personal enough to lead you to my front door, have I?

"Alpie, maybe you should cut back on those bonuses you're paying your hundreds of employees."

Sir, I have cited the fact that I have only three employees.

"Redirect those funds to paying your bills."

I'm in control of my finances, thank you very much.

"You're insufferable, man."

I don't post for your approval or perusal. Feel free to pass over everything I type. How many times have I made this clear to you?

You spend your days making pokes and jabs at what other people write, without offering very much at all in the form of discussion, but it is I who is insufferable? Who the hell do you think you are?

Change your depends diaper, find yourself a baby bottle to suck on until your belly is full, and nod off for an hour or two and then sit back down in front of your computer and start typing your little barbs of wisdom. That seems to be the extent of the life you lead these days.

Can you truly be any more pathetic?

October 14, 2012 at 12:47 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES02800 wrote: "The 15% you speak of is capital gains tax. Which has already been taxed at the income tax level once."

Incorrect. Gains paid out by a corporation are offset against corporate taxes and claimed as expenses. They are a tax deduction before they wind up being taxed at the 15% rate by the individual who receives the capital gains.

"That old lie from the left doesn't hold water."

That silly lie by those on the right has never held water.

"Why should the same money get taxed every year at the higher income tax level?"

All income, regardless of where it is derived, under our current system of taxation, deserves to be taxed at the individual tax rates. The lower capital gains rate favors the wealthy, for most people in the middle and lower income class have little investment income to be taxed at that lower rate.

October 14, 2012 at 12:58 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

With 30+ million now on the government Obamacare, and no more doctors to see them

Toes, are you suggesting that these 30 million were not seeing doctors before?

October 14, 2012 at 1:08 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Hmmm . . . I understand the GOP and Mitt are planning to use the GOP hearse to pick-up Medicare patients, but has there been any word about what kind of vehicle the GOP and Mitt are planning to use to pick-up the 46 million Americans without health insurance?

October 14, 2012 at 1:24 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Alpo's assumptions are straight out of mediamatters. And they are assumptions.

"....deserves to be taxed at the individual tax rates".

By which authority does it "deserve" to be taxed higher" Yours? What a card.

October 14, 2012 at 1:29 p.m.
miraweb said...

I am always fascinated at the "sanitizing" effect corporate hierarchies have. If you can claim to be "just the money" then any of the awful things your companies might do can't possibly be your fault.

This is particularly noticable in health care. Large financial firms own a huge amount of health care. They are driven to squeeze dollars from every asset they hold.

In health care those "assets" are staff, facility, medicine, and supplies. Squeezing those assets has very bad results in the real world.

One example: Our friends at Bain Capital own 163 hospitals, 110 independent surgery centers, and 145 behavioral treatment centers including 11 boarding schools for "special needs and troubled" kids.

Bain claims to control "4 - 5%" of all inpatient hospital admissions in the country.

Those programs that take kids into the desert with $8 an hour staff and let dehydration cause a death or two - are owned by Bain.

One kid with Aspbergers died when two $9.50 an hour night-shift employees were "not authorized" to call 911. Just one of their holdings: Aspen Educational Services, currently has six wrongful death suits against it.

It is the very dark side of "harvesting" value.

http://www.salon.com/2012/07/18/dark_side_of_a_bain_success/

October 14, 2012 at 1:31 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES02800 wrote: "If you're earning $388,350 a year, your paying 35% in federal income tax. Anything lower than that pays a lower rate still. Show us where Romney pays 15% on his income taxes. That's a bunch of malarkey."

The above statement shows that you have not been paying attention.

Mitt Romney currently lives almost exclusively on investment income. It appears that this has been the case for several years.

PriceWaterhouseCoopers publicly stated that he has paid an average effective tax rate of 20.20% over the past 20 years, on more than $450 million in income.

In 2010, he paid an effective tax rate of 13.9%, per his released tax return. He paid $3 million in taxes on $21.7, almost all of which was investment income.

October 14, 2012 at 1:34 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

"AndrewLohr says: “A small voucher under your or my control may serve better than a big bureaucratic system."

Exactly how small is this GOP voucher, Andrew? And what happens if a person is in the middle of surgery and the voucher has reached its limit? Will the surgeon just turn off the oxygen, pick up his/her instruments and walk out of the operating room . . . or what?

October 14, 2012 at 1:36 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

"Of course switching traditional thinking from the tried and proven method of treating patients like they're individuals to the socialist approach where human beings are simply cogs in the wheel of society fits well with the plan to make our health-care system into single-payer program".

From ricks link above.

October 14, 2012 at 1:36 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ALPO: You know nothing of the life I lead. You, on the other hand, vomit personal information that most of us care nothing about. You must be a ringer.

October 14, 2012 at 1:39 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Rolando says: My military service [the one you belittled] covers my healthcare and that of my family...that and all those decades paying into MediCare. Payback is a b_itch, isn't it?

Wow. . . You’re very fortunate to have this kind of healthcare coverage for your family, Rolando. I think the U.S military healthcare model is one of best. . . The way it is set up is very similiar to the type of healthcare model they use in England.

October 14, 2012 at 1:47 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

The investment income that he initially EARNED and therefore already PAID the income tax rate for. And then reinvested it and begun to pay a lower rate. You really believe that the investment income just fell out of the sky? Well it didn't. It was EARNED first and foremost. And taxed accordingly at the federal income tax level. And then invested and taxed at the capital gains level.

October 14, 2012 at 1:47 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

I remember alpo saying 26% of his employees were minorities. With only three employees, the math doesn't add up. Unless he believes a minority is a fraction of a person.

October 14, 2012 at 1:54 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES02800 wrote: "My insurance company has NEVER asked me any of those questions. Not a one. I don't know what the hell you're talking about. My wife and I are perfectly happy with our insurance company. Get a clue."

Clearly, you have employer sponsored health care insurance, which comes with guaranteed coverage, with no health related questions in order to be issued a policy.

If the day ever comes that you, yourself...purchase a health care insurance policy, or if you attempt to hire on with a self-insured employer, you're certain to face those kind of questions.

There are employers who are refusing to hire, or are firing employees who smoke, even if they never light up on company property and only smoke when not at work. All that it takes to go from an employed person to that of an unemployed person, is a written company policy in place, and a failed random test for tobacco use.

Self-insured employers are legally allowed to screen prospective employees for health issues.

"More liberal lies and talking points make you look pathetic."

You really need to brush up on your knowledge before you start calling people liars. It's really getting to be a bad habit of yours.

October 14, 2012 at 2:01 p.m.
ricardo said...

Is anybody watching Felix Baumgartner's jump from space?

http://www.redbullstratos.com/live/

October 14, 2012 at 2:03 p.m.
alprova said...

"Alpo's assumptions are straight out of mediamatters."

Sir, I am an accountant. I need not refer to a thing but the tax codes to justify what I write regarding taxes.

I visit Mediamatters very seldom. It's nice to know that we're on the same page however.

"And they are assumptions."

The tax codes as written by the IRS are facts. Nothing assumed at all.

"....deserves to be taxed at the individual tax rates"."

"By which authority does it "deserve" to be taxed higher" Yours?"

I never asserted that "authority" was involved. That is my opinion, and nothing more.

October 14, 2012 at 2:23 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

MTJohn said: “It should also be pointed out the current health industry was not built by the free market. It is a system in which we socialized the research and development and privatized the profit margins.”

Yes, it’s also an industry that was not built on efficiency. For some unknown reason, the U. S. health industry has never liked to put out money for routine physicals and preventive care. They've always preferred to wait until they had to put out hundreds of thousands of dollars as a result of not providing routine physicals and preventive care.

October 14, 2012 at 2:36 p.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennis wrote: "ALPO: You know nothing of the life I lead."

Really? Your posting habits around the clock, seven days a week, seem to support my stance rather well.

"You, on the other hand, vomit personal information that most of us care nothing about."

Jack, you've not been appointed to represent the opinions of "most people" who frequent this forum, but even if you were, I could not care less what anyone thinks about my decision to relate my personal experiences, especially yourself.

"You must be a ringer."

You're certainly free to believe whatever you wish, and whatever that may be, it will never affect or detour my resolve to dispense truths, to the best of my knowledge, at all times when I post in this forum.

October 14, 2012 at 2:36 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Alprova, it sounds like you have been through hell and back with your horrendous experiences with health problems, accidents (so sorry to hear about the tragic loss of your first wife and son), and the insurance companies. Your testimony provides a perfect example of how broken and inadequate our present system of health care is. Fortunately you seem to have gotten some of the best treatment possible and you are alive today because of it; but it is shameful and sad that you had to endure such stress and hardship to obtain it, and that now you are saddled with such monumental debt.

I'm disgusted as I read some of the commenters here ridicule you with accusations of how it's your own fault. This from rolando is particularly disgusting: "alpo, you are a whiny hoot...and a typical Progressive grasshopper; but you know that. Play today and let tomorrow take care of itself, right? Don't plan...just whine later, right?"

Obviously he completely ignores at least half of what you have written; otherwise he would see that you have been responsible and played by the rules all along. But he and so many others like him refuse to accept the cold hard reality that most of the uninsured are not irresponsible sloths and it is not their fault that they cannot afford to pay the obscenely high cost for health insurance or they cannot qualify for it due to other factors. But they like to believe their little fantasies that all poor, unemployed, uninsured, homeless, or othewise disadvantaged people are just lazy or stupid, because then they can go on feeling smug about their own good fortune and believing that it's all due to their wise planning and righteous living or whatever.

Some people have been very fortunate with their health plans, have not experienced any major setbacks, like claims being denied or being dropped for various reasons, and if that is the case, they probably have employer sponsored health plans in which there aren't nearly as many loop holes and exclusions as in the individual plans. But they don't seem to realize that they are only one incident away from something happening to change all that. Maybe then they will have their eyes opened, they will become more empathetic, and they can see how unfair and broken our private-sector, for-profit health care system is.

Health care is not a privilege, it is a right that we all should have as a consequence of living in a so-called civilized society. Our taxes pay for police and fire protection, and almost everyone, whether liberal or conservative, believes that is a good thing because they protect us from things that are beyond our control. Likewise our taxes should contribute to our health care because so many things happen beyond our control there, too.

I have said it before and I will say it again and again and again: universal health care, or Medicare for all, is the only way to go.

October 14, 2012 at 2:39 p.m.
alprova said...

"The investment income that he initially EARNED and therefore already PAID the income tax rate for. And then reinvested it and begun to pay a lower rate. You really believe that the investment income just fell out of the sky? Well it didn't. It was EARNED first and foremost. And taxed accordingly at the federal income tax level. And then invested and taxed at the capital gains level."

Income used for investment purposes is not re-taxed...ever. No one has ever argued that funds invested has not been taxed already, that is if people who invest are honest about all the sources of their income.

When people invest in stocks that pay capital gains, the only taxes assessed is the 15% rate on the profit that the already taxed income generated in capital gains. Capital gains is fresh income. It deserves to be taxed at the same rate as any other earned income.

There is no double taxation at all and there never has been.

I hope this clears up your confusion on the matter.

October 14, 2012 at 2:51 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks Rickaroo, for saying what I could not articulate. If you have employer's health insurance, you do okay. I lost mine when my husband retired and went on medicare, and I left my job. To cover myself and my college age son, the insurance company gave me the option I could afford: $200/month with $5000 individual deductible, and both of us have a pre-existing (not serious) conditions that were not covered. Had I been of poor health, I would have been screwed-as it is I take no medication and other than for injuries have never been hospitalized or treated for anything serious. I shudder to think of these with pre-existing conditions. Some people have genetic tendencies or inherited conditions that are not related to life-style. I just happen to be lucky.

October 14, 2012 at 2:56 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

The United States is the biggest corporation in the world. A corporation so inept it has not completed a budget for more than four years. A corporation filled with lawyers that are adept at lying and snaring us in contracts without our knowledge. A corporation that has the ability to make you work for it at the point of a gun.

October 14, 2012 at 2:57 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES02800 wrote: "I remember alpo saying 26% of his employees were minorities."

You're again confused. I don't think it is intentional.

Part of my business involves partial financing of the purchases that my customers make.

The issue I was being grilled about on that day was the approval of loans for minorities.

I stated categorically that 26% of the people I had on the books at the time were minorities.

I have never cited the race of any of my employees.

"With only three employees, the math doesn't add up. Unless he believes a minority is a fraction of a person."

That's simply because you were attempting to divide the wrong figures.

October 14, 2012 at 3:01 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

So what happens when you must wait six months or much longer for an mri or other test to find out if your cancer has spread or not? Who will you blame then?

October 14, 2012 at 3:03 p.m.
rick1 said...

Toes, here is a report on wait times in Canada with their govt. healthcare.

The report uses data from the Fraser Institute’s annual survey of hospital wait times, which found that Canadians waited 9.5 weeks, on average, from an appointment with a specialist to receiving treatment in 2011, up slightly from 9.3 weeks in 2010. Across all provinces and medical specialties, the report estimates that Canadian patients waited a combined 11.8 million weeks for treatment in 2011.

The report notes the true private cost of waiting for medical care in Canada is likely higher than $1.08 billion in 2011, or $3.29 billion over the same period when hours outside the work week are included. Importantly, neither estimate includes the cost of care provided by family members and any reductions in their productivity due to worry and grief. Non-monetary medical costs such as increased risk of mortality or adverse events that result directly from long delays for treatment are also not included in the estimates. Finally, the estimates consider only waits from specialist to treatment and do not capture the private cost of waiting for either diagnostic scans such as CT or MRI, or for an appointment with a specialist.

"Canadians endure some of the longest waits for medically necessary treatment in the developed world," Esmail said.

"Rationing of health care in Canada not only deprives patients of timely access to medically necessary treatment, it also causes them to lose out on wages, productivity, and enjoyment of life while they wait."

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/news-releases/Surgical-waitlists-in-Canada-cost-patients-more-than-$1-billion-in-lost-time/

October 14, 2012 at 3:44 p.m.
alprova said...

Rickaroo wrote: "Alprova, it sounds like you have been through hell and back...(snip)"

Thank you. I have indeed been through quite a lot, but I know that God will never put upon my shoulders, more than I can carry.

"Your testimony provides a perfect example of how broken and inadequate our present system of health care is. (Snip)"

I am indeed very thankful for the fantastic care I have received.

I know that I am in far better shape than others out there, who are not so fortunate to live in areas with access to compassionate health care professionals.

The issues I faced when dealing with my wife's recovery was a bit more negative, but we managed to pull through it.

"I'm disgusted as I read some of the commenters here ridicule you with accusations of how it's your own fault. This from rolando is particularly disgusting (snip)"

Rolando and I have been sparring for 3 years over his rampant hypocrisy that I point out from time to time, where he attacks the mouth that feeds him and his, as if he could survive without his Gov't support.

"Obviously he completely ignores at least half of what you have written; otherwise he would see that you have been responsible and played by the rules all along."

That is true. Prior to the date of my wife's crash, I had planned for any and every eventuality possible. My health care insurer made a decision on that day to terminate my policy.

"But he and so many others like him refuse to accept the cold hard reality that most of the uninsured are not irresponsible sloths and it is not their fault...(snip)"

He has his and damn everyone else who finds themselves without. I have pointed this out to him many times.

"Some people have been very fortunate with their health plans, have not experienced any major setbacks, like claims being denied or being dropped for various reasons, and if that is the case, they probably have employer sponsored health plans in which there aren't nearly as many loop holes and exclusions as in the individual plans. But they don't seem to realize that they are only one incident away from something happening to change all that. (snip)"

Despite all that has transpired, I don't wish anyone to ever go through what I have been through. But until one does face it, they really don't have the first clue just how bad it can be.

"Health care is not a privilege, it is a right that we all should have as a consequence of living in a so-called civilized society."

It isn't a guaranteed right, but it should be, and thankfully, there are still many medical professionals out there who believe this also.

"I have said it before and I will say it again and again and again: universal health care, or Medicare for all, is the only way to go."

I totally agree. A lot of minds will have to be changed to ever see it come to pass.

October 14, 2012 at 3:44 p.m.
rick1 said...

Tu, Al will say all of those statements were taken out of context.

October 14, 2012 at 3:46 p.m.
alprova said...

Here's a great comparison of the current U.S. system of health care to that of Canada's. Some of what you may read, might surprise you.

It's not all bad up there, despite the hyperbole out there. In large cities like Toronto and Quebec, there are indeed fewer providers to serve those higher populations, but rural care is fantastic.

October 14, 2012 at 4 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Tu, Al will say all of those statements were taken out of context"

But of course. Every time the issue of health care comes up, out come the obscure articles that attempt to convince everyone that our health care system is the best on the planet.

It isn't and it hasn't been for decades.

Canada is rated at 30 out of 187 other nations by the World Health Organization, and we are seven points below Canada. France is number one, a country with one of the most socialized health care systems in the world.

Italy, Singapore, Spain, Austria, Japan, Norway, Greece, Iceland, United Kingdom, Ireland, Switzerland, Columbia, Sweden, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Australia, Chile, Denmark, and a bunch of other countries that people have probably never heard of, out-rank the United States in providing health care for their citizens.

No one trotting out the negative comparisons can ever explain or refute the WHO list, and they never will.

October 14, 2012 at 4:13 p.m.
degage said...

my elderly mother in law has had quite good health until last friday. She complained of severe pain so she went to her doctor and saw the nurse practitioner, she said it was arthritis and gave her a shot. She was misdignoised and the pain got worse. Went to emergency room, found out what it was then was told they wouldn't do anything about it because of her age. Gave her some pills that make her sick and drousey. Age vs cost!

October 14, 2012 at 4:18 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, I guess if Canadians do not mind having some of the longest wait times in the developed world then things are not so bad.

If you think Canada's healthcare plan is so good then please more there.

Canada’s waiting lists are also among the longest in the developed world. Consider for example, the 2010 findings from a survey of individuals in eleven nations, 10 of which maintain universal access health insurance programs. According to the Commonwealth Fund, among the 10 universal access nations surveyed (Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, and the UK):

•Canadians were the most likely to wait four months or more for elective surgery; and were less likely to wait less than one month for elective surgery than all but Sweden;

•Canadians were the most likely to wait six days or longer to see a doctor or nurse when sick, and were the least likely (tied with Norway) to receive an appointment the same day or next day;

•Canadians were the most likely to wait two months or more for a specialist appointment and least likely to wait less than one month for a specialist appointment; and

•Canadians were the least likely to wait less than 30 minutes and most likely to wait four hours or more for access to an emergency room.

That is hardly the sort of access you might expect from one of the developed world’s most expensive universal access health insurance systems.

http://www.fraserinstitute.org/research-news/news/display.aspx?id=2147484441

October 14, 2012 at 4:19 p.m.
alprova said...

Tu_quoque wrote: "Idiot … he was responding to me and not Toes."

I know that. You were the idiot posting the pro-USA articles on health care.

Then you followed that up with moronic postings alluding to those infamous death panels that do not exist and never will.

October 14, 2012 at 4:27 p.m.
miraweb said...

Massachusetts, my fair state, is six years into "Romney/Obamacare". I needed a checkup on an old back injury. My doc had me in the office in two days.

I can live with that.

October 14, 2012 at 4:29 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, read this article with an open mind and honesty tell me the WHO is not bias in their rankings on health care.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp101.pdf

October 14, 2012 at 4:34 p.m.
alprova said...

degage wrote: "my elderly mother in law has had quite good health until last friday. She complained of severe pain so she went to her doctor and saw the nurse practitioner, she said it was arthritis and gave her a shot. She was misdignoised and the pain got worse. Went to emergency room, found out what it was then was told they wouldn't do anything about it because of her age. Gave her some pills that make her sick and drousey. Age vs cost!"

There's more to the story than what you are presenting.

You say that she found out "what it was" but you failed to state what it was that was found.

What was it?

October 14, 2012 at 4:34 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Alpo would much rather move to France. They're gearing up to start taxing the "rich" at 75%. Remember the liberal mantra: STRIVE FOR MEDIOCRITY!!

October 14, 2012 at 4:35 p.m.
miraweb said...

Life expectancy:

France - 73 years

USA - 70 years

DIE THREE YEARS SOONER!!

http://www.prosperity.com/country.aspx?id=US

October 14, 2012 at 4:43 p.m.
alprova said...

Rick1 wrote: "Al, read this article with an open mind and honesty tell me the WHO is not bias in their rankings on health care."

I'm sorry, but I question the credibility of Cato for three reasons.

1.) Their board is comprised of people big in finance and mega-corporations. Most are highly invested in U.S. health care interests.

2.) David Koch is a board member. He has contributed $395 million to medical facilities scattered across the country. He is staunchly opposed to health care reform.

3.) Cato is widely known for taking a hard-line Libertarian viewpoint on all the issues.

October 14, 2012 at 4:56 p.m.
degage said...

Al, A nerve in the spinal cord. And she has a spot on her lung.

October 14, 2012 at 4:59 p.m.
degage said...

Al, you dismiss some studies because you think they take libertarian viewpoint but then you bluster when we dismiss your liberal links.

October 14, 2012 at 5:03 p.m.
miraweb said...

Degage - sorry to hear your mother-in-law is not doing so well. I clearly don't know enough about the situation to give any advice.

October 14, 2012 at 5:04 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

ALPO: I still think you're a ringer. Here's the context: I think you suck.

October 14, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
alprova said...

TOES02800 wrote: "Alpo would much rather move to France."

Cite?

"They're gearing up to start taxing the "rich" at 75%."

Anyone who makes more than $1.7 million (US dollars) per year, has been taxed at that rate for years.

"Remember the liberal mantra: STRIVE FOR MEDIOCRITY!!"

What taxation has to do with mediocrity is anyone's guess.

October 14, 2012 at 5:08 p.m.
alprova said...

Jack_Dennis wrote: "ALPO: I still think you're a ringer. Here's the context: I think you suck."

Oh my. I'll be sleepless in North Georgia, just because Jack Dennis thinks I suck.

I must have hit a nerve when I brought up depends diapers.

October 14, 2012 at 5:12 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

A big bird shared this info with me and I thought I would pass it along . . .

“Only the developed, industrialized countries -- perhaps 40 of the world's 200 countries -- have established health care systems.

Most of the nations on the planet are too poor and too disorganized to provide any kind of mass medical care.

The basic rule in such countries is that the rich get medical care; the poor stay sick or die.”

“The United States is unlike every other country because it maintains so many separate systems for separate classes of people.

When it comes to treating veterans, we're Britain or Cuba.

For Americans over the age of 65 on Medicare, we're Canada.

For working Americans who get insurance on the job, we're Germany.

For the 15 percent of the population who have no health insurance, the United States is Cambodia or Burkina Faso or rural India . . .”

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/countries/models.html

October 14, 2012 at 5:13 p.m.
conservative said...

Those who resent Romney for the 15% capital gains rate are either grossly ignorant, hypocritical, envious or a combination these.

The 15% capital gains rate or less of taxation is available to ALL Americans. Many who whine here who are in the 10-15% tax rate on ordinary income would pay less.Instead of buying drugs, alcohol, tobacco, a fancy truck, entertainment, going out to eat etc you can invest that money at the 15% rate or less just like Romney.

October 14, 2012 at 5:14 p.m.
alprova said...

degage wrote: "Al, you dismiss some studies because you think they take libertarian viewpoint but then you bluster when we dismiss your liberal links."

If you have been paying attention, I do my level best NOT to link to Liberal sites.

October 14, 2012 at 5:14 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

degage: You MUST know that liberalism is the wholesome truth by which everyone prospers! It worked so well in Europe!

October 14, 2012 at 5:15 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, you tell everyone on here that it is your job to search for the truth, when in fact you have just proven you are nothing but a fraud a liar and a hack. You will not even look at the study with an open mind to see what documentation they have provided to reach their conclusion.

October 14, 2012 at 5:15 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al said "If you have been paying attention, I do my level best NOT to link to Liberal sites."

Enough with the lies Al, every site you link to is a liberal site.

October 14, 2012 at 5:18 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

That's true conservative. Liberals claim the republicans are the greedy, but in fact it's the liberals themselves that want something for nothing. Government this and government that. You have more than I do so you should give me yours. There's greed for you.

True prosperity requires sacrifice. The liberals feel they should have prosperity off of someone else's sacrifice while they give up nothing. It's just not "fair" for someone to have more than another. Unless it's the liberals themselves.

October 14, 2012 at 5:20 p.m.
miraweb said...

I think it is fair to say that Koch and Cato have definate agendas. They themselves would acknowledge that.

There are sites with bias on both the left and the right. I generally check the facts if I see something on Kos or HuffPo just as I do if it comes from redstate.com (Karl Rove's godchild) or Fox News.

October 14, 2012 at 5:25 p.m.
alprova said...

degage wrote: "Al, A nerve in the spinal cord. And she has a spot on her lung."

Okay then, I'm sure that your MIL was dismissed from the ER to follow up with a pulmonary specialist to find out what the spot on the lung is all about.

Spinal nerve pinches are often very temporary, and the normal treatment, regardless of age, is pain pills.

You presented her visit to the ER as if she was sent home to die, and I knew that was not true.

I've stated a couple of times, that I am in charge of the finances and health care expenses of a half-dozen elderly people. All of them have been hospitalized over the past year, and each of them has received superb health care.

One 81 year old has been hospitalized four times in the past two months, with two heart attacks, and two instances of severe internal bleeding, and the man has received fantastic care at Memorial Hospital. The very first hospitalization, he went to Parkridge, and one doctor there absolutely expressed orally that he was too old to treat, which resulted in an immediate transfer to Memorial at my insistence.

There are indeed people out there masking themselves as medical professionals, who harbor different viewpoints as to whether or not the elderly are worth treating.

The best course of action if and when one encounters something like that, is to seek an immediate second opinion.

October 14, 2012 at 5:30 p.m.
rick1 said...

So Al is now qualified to give medical advice. There can not be enough room in your house for both your wife and your Ego?

October 14, 2012 at 5:42 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Al, you tell everyone on here that it is your job to search for the truth, when in fact you have just proven you are nothing but a fraud a liar and a hack. You will not even look at the study with an open mind to see what documentation they have provided to reach their conclusion."

You're only stating that because you happen to agree with the premise behind that article. I'm a "fraud a liar and a hack" because I exposed the fact that the board members of Cato have a clear interest in controverting long standing and well documented standards used to evaluate the health care systems of 187 countries?

Of course they want to convince people that our system of health care is superior, as it is. The board members are heavily invested in for-profit medical ventures, that are being threatened by reforms that will reduce the performance of those investments, and rightfully so.

The fact that members of the public expect to profit from health care, is madness.

I saw no documentation included in that article. I saw alternative measures used to arrive at a different conclusion. That's not documentation. That's an elimination and an intense disregarding of widely accepted data used to evaluate health care systems.

WHO uses five standards by which to evaluate health care systems. Cato wanted to wipe out all but two of them, because they felt the other three were unfair.

Find an article written by someone without an agenda to push, and I'll be happy to consider it.

Otherwise, the WHO standards are still widely accepted for their credibility and because they absolutely do go to great lengths to document what they printed.

October 14, 2012 at 5:49 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "So Al is now qualified to give medical advice."

What medical advice did I offer? I offered consumer advice, as in what to do if you are not satisfied with what a medical professional is telling you, and you can rest assured that I am more than qualified to know what to do in a similar situation.

I lived it repeatedly a few years back.

"There can not be enough room in your house for both your wife and your Ego?"

Aw...now don't be such a sore loser, just because I didn't think much of your incredible source that attempted to debunk the WHO list.

October 14, 2012 at 5:57 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

rick1: The man (alpo) is shameless. Maybe he was bullied as a kid.

October 14, 2012 at 5:57 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

TOES02800 shouts: " Remember the liberal mantra: STRIVE FOR MEDIOCRITY!!"

OK, so tell us. . . how will Mitt and the GOP’s Medicare plan take care of Val & Dottie?

“Val, a retired truck driver, has diabetes. His wife Dottie has high blood pressure.

They can’t afford their medications and often take less than the full dose or just go without. They don’t want charity but do feel there should be some sort of subsidy for people like themselves in the middle-class.”

October 14, 2012 at 6 p.m.
ricardo said...

I think we can all tell who is being bullied, from the number of whining complaints about a certain poster. :-)

October 14, 2012 at 6:02 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Nurses Run: Surprise protest shakes Paris

Get people hooked on the government, then when the money runs out, chaos ensues. Proven fact.

October 14, 2012 at 6:12 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Enough with the lies Al, every site you link to is a liberal site."

I'm not sure that Fox News would agree with your statement. I've been linking to that site quite often lately.

October 14, 2012 at 6:13 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "The 15% capital gains rate or less of taxation is available to ALL Americans."

You forgot to add that it is available to all Americans who have disposable income to invest.

"Many who whine here who are in the 10-15% tax rate on ordinary income would pay less.Instead of buying drugs, alcohol, tobacco, a fancy truck, entertainment, going out to eat etc you can invest that money at the 15% rate or less just like Romney."

You've got the answer to everything, don't you?

If someone doesn't have the money to live off of investment income, which would allow them to take advantage of that 15% tax rate, it can only be due to the fact that they "buy drugs, alcohol, tobacco, a fancy truck, entertainment, or because they eat out too much," right?

I'm sorry, but that is just about the most outrageous comment you have offered to date. You're a real piece of work, you evangelical ignoramus.

Go back to posting irrelevant Biblical scripture and follow it up with a quotation of the 1st Amendment.

You made much more sense when you did that.

October 14, 2012 at 6:24 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Rick1 says: “here is a report on wait times in Canada with their govt. healthcare.”

And a report in the U.S. shows that our country has 46 million people without healthcare insurance. . . I suspect they wouldn’t mind waiting in a line.

October 14, 2012 at 6:25 p.m.
rick1 said...

Not a sore loser Al, you just used a lame way of not using the Cato report, since you were not able to challenge the facts they posted in the report.

October 14, 2012 at 6:28 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Not a sore loser Al, you just used a lame way of not using the Cato report, since you did not challenge anything in the report."

For Pete's sake. I most definitely did challenge what was contained in the report. Go back and read my post at 5:49 pm.

October 14, 2012 at 6:32 p.m.
rick1 said...

Tu, Alpo has a memory like Obama and forgets about all of the liberal sites he uses.

October 14, 2012 at 6:33 p.m.
degage said...

Tu and rick1, Al just took over where Easy123 and Happy left off.

When easy said he got paid for each post I really laughed. Now I'm thinking he might have been telling the truth and he is now unemployed. Don't have a clue about happy, maybe he saw the light and became a conservative and doesn't want his liberal buddies to know.

October 14, 2012 at 6:51 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, I did miss your report at 5:49pm

Cato published the report but it was written by Glen Whitman Associate Professor of Economics California State University.

October 14, 2012 at 6:52 p.m.
alprova said...

I don't care who wrote it. It was contrived with a definite agenda in mind, which was a very feeble attempt to discount the data that WHO used to evaluate health care systems.

October 14, 2012 at 7:07 p.m.
fairmon said...

miraweb said... Life expectancy:

France - 73 years

USA - 70 years

DIE THREE YEARS SOONER!!

Could it be they have much less obesity, better diets, more walking and other healthy life style activities or are you convinced it is due to their socialized health care which just took a hit due to their failing economy and the fact they are already at a 75% tax rate of those that were investing in their businesses. I have talked to some folks from France and others that have visited there this year. I promise you a closer look and you may not be so enamored.

October 14, 2012 at 7:23 p.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel posted...

And a report in the U.S. shows that our country has 46 million people without health care insurance. . . I suspect they wouldn't mind waiting in a line.”

How many of those could afford it but elect to not have health care coverage? They may have to drive an older car or do without an I-phone and the apps. They can get care now without waiting in line for days, check out alprova's history. How many people do you know that have been refused treatment for an injury or illness? Do you know anyone that has Tenn-care? You do know they are part of the stat you like to use.

Should there be a better system? No doubt but I can promise you it is not Obamacare and all the surprises in that 2600 pages plus with a lot of garbage and not yet developed policy. I cannot stand Pelosi but she was honest when she said the only way to know what is in it is to pass it, she failed to add and learn the hard way.

October 14, 2012 at 7:36 p.m.
patriot1 said...

I'm thinking Alpo may be a "composite character"....much like Obama's girlfriend in his bio...I agree with Jack, lots of info put out there.

October 14, 2012 at 7:41 p.m.
ricardo said...

harp- It's been 2 years since the ACA was signed into law. If there was something nefarious in those 2600 pages, don't you think that Fox News or Rush would have brought it out into the light by now?

October 14, 2012 at 8 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

dégagé, I think Easy left for the Peace Corp.

October 14, 2012 at 8:23 p.m.
tderng said...

mountainlaurel said...OK, so tell us. . . how will Mitt and the GOP’s Medicare plan take care of Val & Dottie?

“Val, a retired truck driver, has diabetes. His wife Dottie has high blood pressure. They can’t afford their medications and often take less than the full dose or just go without. They don’t want charity but do feel there should be some sort of subsidy for people like themselves in the middle-class.

Well mtnl,since these folks are retired they must have medicare and nothing will change for them. I'm not sure if they pay for the supplemental coverage to cover their meds,but if they do not,they should. My copay for my maintenance drugs (for diabetes and high blood pressure)is about $6 per medication.I am on about 7 medications and pay only about $35-$40 per month for them.The supplemental coverage costs me about $80 out of my S.S. income and is worth every penny of it.

October 14, 2012 at 8:35 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

The 15% capital gains rate or less of taxation is available to ALL Americans. Many who whine here who are in the 10-15% tax rate on ordinary income would pay less.Instead of buying drugs, alcohol, tobacco, a fancy truck, entertainment, going out to eat etc you can invest that money at the 15% rate or less just like Romney.

We don't buy drugs, tobacco, much alcohol, electronics, big trucks, vacations, or restaurant meals. We invest what we can and have for 30+ years. There is no way we could amass a fortune big enough to live off of. So we had jobs and payed income tax. At a rate twice that of Romney's investments, which he was living off of. No comparison. Take your stereotypes and shove it, conservative.

October 14, 2012 at 9:08 p.m.
conservative said...

alprova...

I wrote what I meant to write. I didn't forget anything. You see, "disposable income" is income after necessary living expenses. Those things I listed qualify as "disposable income." If Liberals see drugs, alcohol, tobacco, entertainment, eating out, a fancy truck instead of a less expensive and more practical truck as necessities, that would be their opinion, not mine.

I have the "answer to everything" I write in my opinion, just as you do. You don't write something you don't believe, do you?

Regarding your -

"If someone doesn't have the money to live off of investment income, which would allow them to take advantage of that 15% tax rate, it can only be due to the fact that they "buy drugs, alcohol, tobacco, a fancy truck, entertainment, or because they eat out too much," right?"

Now, that is your strawman and your snide remark.

I see nothing "outrageous" about Americans foregoing pleasures and making sacrifices for the sake of their children and retirement when they invest their "disposable income", instead of looking to government for a handout.

Most importantly, Biblical Scripture is never "irrelevant" -

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

October 14, 2012 at 9:08 p.m.
dude_abides said...

What a bunch of stooges you neocons are! LOL Jack_degage you should be glad easy's not here to eviscerate you daily. I would think you'd be glad to let the memory of those a$$ stompings fade. You're a bunch of hyenas trying to gang up on alprova, who methodically dispatches your pearls of ignorance to the trash heap as a hobby. "I wonder where easy123 is, the Peace Corps?" Jesus, Jack_, that's like 4 times you've said that, and it wasn't worth the first repeat.

October 14, 2012 at 9:12 p.m.
conservative said...

IKe...

Romney's tax rate on income would be the same or even more than yours.

His capital gains rate would be the same or more than yours as well.

Don't let people exploit you, check it out for yourself.

October 14, 2012 at 9:26 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

The difference is that capital gains is ALL Romney pays because he doesn't depend on an income. My modest investments are taxed at 14%. My income at 28%. His investments are enough. He came from wealth. Your insulting stereotype is off the mark.

No one is exploiting me. But Romney does not understand middle class because he has never been there.

October 14, 2012 at 9:34 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

I really get a kick reading the posts of some of the conservatives here when they quote Biblical scripture to bolster their arguments over social issues.

Why is it that anytime there is a discussion or toon regarding policies to help the poor or the needy these posters can never quote the teachings of Jesus Christ regarding these issues. Do they find it hard to follow the directives of the deity they worship?

Andrew? conservative?

I hereby propose a new acronym..CINO. Christian In Name Only.

October 14, 2012 at 9:49 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "I wrote what I meant to write. I didn't forget anything."

I'm sure you didn't.

"You see, "disposable income" is income after necessary living expenses."

What you are failing to acknowledge is that most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck. Disposable income above and beyond the necessities of life is a luxury for far too many.

"Those things I listed qualify as "disposable income." If Liberals see drugs, alcohol, tobacco, entertainment, eating out, a fancy truck instead of a less expensive and more practical truck as necessities, that would be their opinion, not mine."

So lets see if I have this down pat. Those who have disposable income to invest, never buy drugs, alcohol, tobacco, entertainment, eat out, or drive a new vehicle. Did I get it right? They just invest every penny over the bare minimum needed to sustain their meager lifestyles.

And by emulating the rich, by forgoing all the above, people will magically have enough disposable income to invest, and in a few short years, they too will join the Mitt Romney's of the world and will then be paying taxes at a 15% rate.

"I have the "answer to everything" I write in my opinion, just as you do. You don't write something you don't believe, do you?"

Your opinion is full of crappola and it's not very realistic.

"I see nothing "outrageous" about Americans foregoing pleasures and making sacrifices for the sake of their children and retirement when they invest their "disposable income", instead of looking to government for a handout."

It must be fun to hang around you, if you practice what you are preaching today. I suppose you don't do drugs. You probably don't drink alcohol or smoke. You've never seen a movie or have cable TV. Eating out is prohibited. And I guess you drive a 25 year old beater back and forth to church.

So..when are you going to be living off of your $450 million that you have invested by sitting around and twiddling your thumbs all day.

Oops. I almost forgot. You have internet access and a computer. OMG...your kids must be deprived of a meal per week, so that you can pay that $50 bucks a month for internet service, rather than to delay your plan for their future, and the day that will eventually come when you too can pay taxes at that magical 15% rate.

Quite frankly, I am surprised that you are not teaching your kids to fend for themselves and to not expect Papa to provide them an education or an inheritance. At least then, you would be consistent and in line with the dumps you take in this forum.

"Most importantly, Biblical Scripture is never "irrelevant""

Inserted in the topics of conversation over the past week or so, they most certainly were irrelevant.

You're nothing short of one delusional evangelical nutbar, living life as if you reside on a cloud.

You're just another Republican cheerleader, completely lost in space, and they are playing you like a fiddle.

Carry on...

October 14, 2012 at 10:07 p.m.
miraweb said...

Good points, ikeithlu. I remember that part of what made George HW Bush a one term president was his fascination with magical grocery scanners and an unfamiliarity with the price of milk or socks.

I hope Romney's prep team takes him to a Walmart for an hour or so. He could see all sorts of new things.

October 14, 2012 at 10:09 p.m.
ricardo said...

Romney can learn a lot from his housekeeper or gardener. He just needs to make sure they have a green card.

October 14, 2012 at 10:33 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tu_quoque said: "It seems very odd that for you Libtards the quantity hasn’t chanced over the last couple of decades."

Actually, Tu_quoque, the U.S. Census Bureau reports that in 2011 there were 48.6 million uninsured people in the U.S. . .In 2010 the number of uninsured persons was 50 million. . . I suppose some of the reduction is due to Obamacare, which allows parents to keep their children on their policies. . . I know this went into effect in September 2010.

Tu_quoque wonders: "What I’m wondering is how many of those people are left when you deduct illegal aliens, healthy young people etc."

Well, Tu_quoque, once the mandate is in effect I guess you won’t have to wonder anymore.

October 14, 2012 at 10:45 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Dudely_: I'm flattered you hang on my every word. LOL

October 14, 2012 at 10:52 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “How many of those could afford it but elect to not have health care coverage?”

The NYT's Nicholas Kristoff has an interesting article about a collegue of his who opted not to buy health care coverage. . . It’s sad article:

“I didn’t buy health insurance because I knew it would be really expensive in the individual policy market, because many of the people in this market are high risk. I would have bought insurance if there had been any kind of fair-risk pooling.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/14/opinion/sunday/kristof-a-possibly-fatal-mistake.html?pagewanted=all

October 14, 2012 at 10:56 p.m.
alprova said...

Gary Johnson: Mitt is “without one molecule of brain”

"Gary Johnson served eight years as the Republican governor of New Mexico, where he endeared himself to libertarians by vetoing hundreds of bills that conflicted with his small-government worldview. An avid extreme sports enthusiast, he’s climbed Mount Everest and run Ironman triathlons since leaving office in 2003, while also becoming one of the country’s most outspoken voices against the drug war."

Read the rest at;

http://www.salon.com/2012/10/13/gary_johnson_romney_is_without_one_molecule_of_brain/

October 14, 2012 at 11:21 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tdemg said: Well mtnl,since these folks are retired they must have medicare and nothing will change for them. I'm not sure if they pay for the supplemental coverage to cover their meds,but if they do not,they should.

But the Affordable Care Act changed the formula to make prescription drug coverage more affordable so some things would change for these seniors if the Affordable Care Act were repealed, which is what Mitt Romney says he wants to do:

“Nearly 5.4 million Medicare recipients saved more than $4.1 billion on prescription drugs as a result of the Affordable Care Act, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said in an August news release.

Seniors in the Medicare prescription drug coverage gap known as the 'donut hole' have saved an average of $768," she said.

The law helps make Medicare prescription drug coverage more affordable. . .

In 2010, Medicare recipients who hit the prescription drug donut hole received a $250 rebate.

Last year, people with Medicare who reached the donut hole got a 50 percent discount on covered brand-name drugs and a discount on generic drugs.

Recipients will pay less and less until 2020, when they will be responsible for only 25% of the cost of their drugs until they reach the yearly out-of-pocket spending limit, according to a 2010 posting on healthcare.gov by Jonathan Blum, director for the Centers of Medicare and Medicaid Services.”

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/04/politics/fact-check-senior-drugs-costs/index.html

October 14, 2012 at 11:33 p.m.
fairmon said...

ml's NYT article about the friend of a friend saying.......

"I would have bought insurance if there had been any kind of fair-risk pooling.”

Another woulda, coulda, shoulda story in the most liberal rag on earth, the NYT....another supporting article for your opinion ML, you are consistent.

October 15, 2012 at 12:07 a.m.
fairmon said...

ricardo said... harp- It's been 2 years since the ACA was signed into law. If there was something nefarious in those 2600 pages, don't you think that Fox News or Rush would have brought it out into the light by now?

I don't listen to Limbaugh and very seldom watch FOX news but I do doubt they have taken the time to read the bill. Suggest you read it yourself. It is not easy to read and takes a lot of time, more than a 2600 page book would take.

October 15, 2012 at 12:39 a.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel posted...

Nearly 5.4 million Medicare recipients saved more than $4.1 billion on prescription drugs as a result of the Affordable Care Act, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said in an August news release.

Another way of saying that would be the deficit and borrowed money enabled 5.4 million medicare recepients to spend $4.1 billion less on prescription drugs.

That may be OK but how, who and when will it be paid for? Two unfunded wars, unfunded prescription drugs and now more unfunded prescription cost with the lowest percent of eligible workers employed than any time in history. Economic growth has been less each of the last several months. The average work week and average income is not increasing and in some cases going down. So, we just apply for a few more credit cards and keep doing the same thing. I need another pep talk about how great democrats are and how bad republicans are so I won't be supporting Gary Johnson.

Do you manage your personal finances that way? If yes, how many times have you filed bankruptcy?

October 15, 2012 at 12:54 a.m.
alprova said...

To the 16-Year-Old Who Knocked on My Door, Asking That I Vote for Obama

"You looked so young when I opened the door, a clipboard tucked against your side and your cheeks flushed, smiling expectantly."

"I assumed at first that you were seeking donations for the high school baseball team or taking pledges for Jump Rope for Heart. But the first words out of your mouth were, "May I tell you why it's important to vote for Barack Obama?"..."

Read the rest at;

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/14/1144484/-To-the-16-Year-Old-Who-Knocked-on-My-Door-Asking-That-I-Vote-for-Obama

October 15, 2012 at 2:34 a.m.
alprova said...

The Final Word on Mitt Romney’s Tax Plan

"Mitt Romney's campaign says I'm full of it. I said Romney's tax plan is mathematically impossible: he can't simultaneously keep his pledges to cut tax rates 20 percent and repeal the estate tax and alternative minimum tax; broaden the tax base enough to avoid growing the deficit; and not raise taxes on the middle class. They say they have six independent studies -- six! -- that "have confirmed the soundness of the Governor’s tax plan," and so I should stop whining. Let's take a tour of those studies and see how they measure up."

Read the rest at;

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-12/the-final-word-on-mitt-romney-s-tax-plan.html

October 15, 2012 at 2:43 a.m.
alprova said...

Father of murdered US ambassador to Romney: Leave my kid alone

"The father of slain US ambassador to Libya, Christopher Stevens, is calling for politicians to stop making the death of his son into a campaign issue."

"And there’s only one campaign, and one political party, that’s been treating the murder of our ambassador as an “opportunity,” and that’s Mitt Romney and the Republicans."

“It would really be abhorrent to make this into a campaign issue,” Jan Stevens, 77, said in a telephone interview from his home in Loomis, California, as he prepares for a memorial service for his son next week."

Read the rest at;

http://elections.americablog.com/2012/10/father-of-murdered-us-ambassador-to-romney-leave-my-kid-alone.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Americablog+%28AMERICAblog+News%29

October 15, 2012 at 2:54 a.m.
alprova said...

Romney’s 800 Vetoes Shatter His Bipartisan Myth

"In the first presidential debate, Governor Mitt Romney claimed he had a bipartisan record as Governor, but history tells another story. In 2006, his last year as Massachusetts Governor (in which he was absent more than half of the year), Romney issued 250 vetoes, all of which were overturned by what the Romney camp dubbed a “hostile” legislature. It’s not just Democrats who didn’t get along with Romney, though."

"Most of Romney’s vetoes were overturned, sometimes unanimously. Romney used the vetoes to claim he was a budget hawk, but in addition to his budget vetoes, he also vetoed a bill to raise the minimum wage, a stem cell bill and a bill to make the morning after pill available over the counter, among others. All were overridden. The Concord Monitor, observing Romney’s “frosty relations with legislators” noted in 2007 that this, “effectively removed Romney from the final stage of the state’s budget process.”..."

Read the rest at;

http://www.politicususa.com/romneys-800-vetoes-governor-belie-claim-bipartisan.html

October 15, 2012 at 3:01 a.m.
alprova said...

Romney’s Medicaid shell game

"Mitt Romney is lambasting federal aid in his campaign for the presidency, including derisive comments against those who receive government assistance. But he pulled all the stops to pursue federal aid as governor of Massachusetts, even hiring “revenue maximization” contractors to scour federal programs for every possible penny — and using financial schemes to maximize and then divert the aid from his needy constituents."

"In his first budget proposal, Romney promised balancing the budget without tapping reserves, and “without the use of fiscal gimmicks.” However, buried in the details, he suggested tapping reserves such as taking $4 million from the Catastrophic Illness in Children Relief Fund, and he included fiscal gimmicks to maximize and divert federal aid into his general state coffers."

Read the rest at;

http://articles.boston.com/2012-10-12/opinion/34403616_1_federal-aid-revenue-maximization-federal-taxes

October 15, 2012 at 3:06 a.m.
alprova said...

Illinois City Calls On Mitt Romney To Stop Bain-Owned Company From Outsourcing 170 Local Jobs

WASHINGTON -- "The city council of Freeport, Ill., approved a resolution Monday evening that will call on presumptive Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney to step in and save roughly 170 local jobs being outsourced by a company owned by Bain Capital."

"Last year, Massachusetts-based Sensata Technologies announced that it was closing its Freeport plant by the end of 2012 and shipping the jobs to China. The U.S. positions, the company claimed, would be phased out gradually. Sensata Technologies makes sensors and controls that are used in aircraft and automobiles."

Read the rest at;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/16/mitt-romney-freeport-illinois-outsourcing_n_1676991.html

October 15, 2012 at 3:14 a.m.
degage said...

Notice everyone Al doesn't use liberal links. that is what he said and I say hogwash. Huff post and Boston.com ad the others are liberal.

October 15, 2012 at 6:20 a.m.
conservative said...

Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..

October 15, 2012 at 7:49 a.m.
fairmon said...

It is really getting ugly with no regard for being credible with people. No one is effectively addressing the deficits and growing debt. No one is talking about the dollar losing value and buying less which in part causes higher gas prices. It is not likely that voters will see through the misleading statements and insinuations by both parties. It is sad that many people are so busy they only get news sound bites and reco's from friends and family to decide how to vote. An incumbent is nearly impossible to beat since many people that are working conclude things are OK so I won't risk a change.

The saddest fact of all is it makes little difference which of them win, the eventual results will be very similar and without drastic changes the future will not be good for most Americans. There will be no "middle class" without a good manufacturing wealth creating jobs base which continues to be less and less.

October 15, 2012 at 8:09 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said... Illinois City Calls On Mitt Romney To Stop Bain-Owned Company From Outsourcing 170 Local Jobs

How could he do what they propose? He is no longer running that company. Have they looked at what it would take to enable that operation to be more profitable where they are? I doubt it, most politicians think businesses are the place to generate revenue known as a fools tax. People don't realize any tax, fees or other imposed cost are reflected in the price of the product or service they purchase.

alprova...do you consider all cost including local, state and federal taxes, fees etc. in calculating what you must charge for whatever you sale in order to be profitable. If you don't you may not be in business very long. Employers Match the individuals social security tax which is good but it is reflected in the cost of what we buy.

October 15, 2012 at 8:22 a.m.
rolando said...

No, alpo, your planning for you and your at-the-time wife has been p_ss-poor. It was so poor it resulted in her death [by your own admission some while back].

Yet you castigate those who make the hard decisions and plan for their family's future.

You are a typical me-first Progressive grasshopper.

In keeping with my standard regarding your bloviated posts, I respond only to your first paragraph [since they pretty well sum up the content of all of your posts.] You didn't really expect sensible person to read all that repetitive crap, did you?

October 15, 2012 at 8:40 a.m.
degage said...

Romney left Bain 12 yrs ago but dems still want to associate him with the running of it. Did you know Obama owns shares in sensata technologies the same one the Dems are trying to say Romney is to blame for closing the factory in Il. Romney has nothing to do with running the business so he has nothing to do with the closing of that factory.

Note that the cost of living hasn't gone up this year. Yes thats a joke but the Gov. is saying social security is only getting a 1.4% raise for that reason. Medicare will go up around 7dollars a month so it wipes out most of that amount. Thats what I call fuzzy math at the expence of seniors.

October 15, 2012 at 8:46 a.m.
mymy said...

22 Days to Go!

It is still the economy/jobs/foreign policy/direction of country/National Security here/abroad and the growing debt.

Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock

Without a strong economy nothing will be possible.

Romney/Ryan 2012

October 15, 2012 at 9 a.m.
conservative said...

Ike....

So, you have boiled it down to your envy and resentment of Romney. You are obviously hpocritical also in that you wish you were in the same situation.

Don't you know that Owebama is making a lot of money at that 15% also.

October 15, 2012 at 9:01 a.m.
conservative said...

alprova....

So, your MO is one snide remark and false accusation and strawman after another. You are one poor miserable man

Don't you see that you could spend most of the day and night and you do, throwing insults and of course losing sleep.

BTW, do you really believe people are reading all those very long comments of yours?

October 15, 2012 at 9:09 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

harp3339 said... "The saddest fact of all is it makes little difference which of them win, the eventual results will be very similar and without drastic changes the future will not be good for most Americans."

It is painful to watch everyone cheerlead for one or the other when they both will take us down the same path of a declining dollar, loss of individual wealth and the destruction of freedom. Freedom and a limited federal government has become a cliche with no substance in this country.

October 15, 2012 at 9:09 a.m.
tderng said...

alprova said... To the 16-Year-Old Who Knocked on My Door, Asking That I Vote for Obama.......All this article showed me was that our youth are being indoctrinated into the socialist mindset at an ever decreasing age.

By the way alprova,dailykos is an extremely far left website.As are ALL the others you referenced today.

I'm sure that the left would love for everyone to just sweep under the rug the death of our Libya ambassador and the others....Move along folks,nothing to see here!

October 15, 2012 at 9:14 a.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "alprova...do you consider all cost including local, state and federal taxes, fees etc. in calculating what you must charge for whatever you sale in order to be profitable."

To be perfectly honest, no I don't, and the reason I don't is because the profits in what I sell are rather enormous. My advantage is that nothing I sell was purchased with borrowed funds. It costs me nothing if it takes awhile to sell.

"If you don't you may not be in business very long. Employers Match the individuals social security tax which is good but it is reflected in the cost of what we buy."

Business is just fine and I expect it to be just fine for years to come. I should have done this one years ago.

October 15, 2012 at 9:22 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

conservative, either you didn't read my post or your reading comprehension sucks. Must be your brain on fundy religion.

October 15, 2012 at 9:25 a.m.
alprova said...

Rolando wrote: "No, alpo, your planning for you and your at-the-time wife has been p_ss-poor. It was so poor it resulted in her death [by your own admission some while back]."

Well I'll tell you what you sawed-off jerk, go dig up the post where I claimed my current wife died, because the fact is, that she is alive and well after a four year venture that included 8 very intensive surgeries, and numerous hospitalizations.

I again repeat, my first wife and son were killed on July 1, 1977 after being hit head-on by a drunk driver.

Your charge that I did not plan for what happened is of no consequence, nor do I care at all what your opinions are on anything. If you were a pimple on my butt, I'd pop you and wipe the residue away with an alcohol pad.

"Yet you castigate those who make the hard decisions and plan for their family's future."

I have no idea where that charge comes from.

"In keeping with my standard regarding your bloviated posts, I respond only to your first paragraph [since they pretty well sum up the content of all of your posts.] You didn't really expect sensible person to read all that repetitive crap, did you?"

You do whatever makes you warm and fuzzy. I'll not be losing a second's sleep over what Rolando thinks, believes, or assumes.

October 15, 2012 at 9:34 a.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "alprova....So, your MO is one snide remark and false accusation and strawman after another. You are one poor miserable man"

Sir, you are the one who threw out that list of things that if eliminated from one's life, would allegedly lead one to the 15% tax Utopian life.

Don't blame me for illustrating just how silly that assertion is.

"Don't you see that you could spend most of the day and night and you do, throwing insults and of course losing sleep."

Don't worry yourself about my losing any sleep. I work long days, five days a week. I set aside two days a week to kick back and enjoy life. On those days, you will see more from me.

"BTW, do you really believe people are reading all those very long comments of yours?"

I really don't care who reads what, but the people who beotch about them seem to have a habit of responding to them, despite their claim to not read them, for some unknown reason.

October 15, 2012 at 9:44 a.m.
fairmon said...

We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

October 15, 2012 at 9:48 a.m.
alprova said...

tderng wrote: "By the way alprova,dailykos is an extremely far left website.As are ALL the others you referenced today."

And notice that I did not present those links as proof of anything. I merely threw out those links to stimulate discussion. I offered no comment at all.

"I'm sure that the left would love for everyone to just sweep under the rug the death of our Libya ambassador and the others....Move along folks,nothing to see here!"

Even the father of the murdered Ambassador sees the politicization that is going on by the Republicans, especially Mitt Romney.

I think his word carries a bit more weight than that of the Mittster.

October 15, 2012 at 9:50 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Every classroom, corporate meeting, town hall meeting, homeowners assoc. meeting, etc ALWAYS has one guy like ALPO. Is it not so?

October 15, 2012 at 9:50 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said... Harp3339 wrote: "alprova...do you consider all cost including local, state and federal taxes, fees etc. in calculating what you must charge for whatever you sale in order to be profitable."

To be perfectly honest, no I don't, and the reason I don't is because the profits in what I sell are rather enormous. My advantage is that nothing I sell was purchased with borrowed funds. It costs me nothing if it takes awhile to sell.

Are you saying neither you nor your competition would reduce the price if all taxes, fees etc. were eliminated? You did say you had an accounting background and you can say regardless of how long your money is tied up and earning nothing is no problem. Sounds like one of those if it sounds too good to be true it probably is situations. Are the products on consignment with somone else having their money in them?

October 15, 2012 at 9:54 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Every classroom, corporate meeting, town hall meeting, homeowners assoc. meeting, etc ALWAYS has one guy like ALPO. Is it not so?

Yeah, JD-don't you just hate it when someone uses FACTS to back up what they say? Make lying so much harder.

October 15, 2012 at 10:07 a.m.
fairmon said...

Has anyone seen the contract for the debates? Anyone know who is on the presidential debates commission since the league of women voters backed away from them? Three of the ten sponsors have backed out leaving Budweiser as the largest. Other sponsors includes two law firms. Anyone recall when Mondale and Reagan rejected 80 proposed moderators before agreeing. Did you know the contract prohibits third party participation? Carter refused to participate when a third party was invited by the league of women voters. American voters have short memories and certainly refuse to read and learn from history.

Why did Obanma slough off the first debate? He knew who the moderators were and the format for the next two plus he know the most likely area of questions. They both know what the contract says. Obama knew Romney had no choice but to agree with his reps negotiating the contract since his only shot was the debates. Romney is about to get two butt kickings plus so many negative ads he can't count them. Gary Johnson will not participate in any of the debates nor will he be provided equal time by any media.

October 15, 2012 at 10:09 a.m.
conservative said...

One thing I have noticed that Liberals and Socialists ( yes, I know they are the same) constantly bring up in their argument for Socialized medicine is their charge of "obscene" profits by the insurance companies. Did you ever notice they never deem pornography obscene?

October 15, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Most people that don't have healthcare don't even want it. Take all the healthy 20, 30, or 40 somethings that don't feel the need to pay for health insurance because the chance of them needing it is low.

The liberal myth is that there are 46 million people out there that are huddled in the streets crying that they have no health care. That's a load of crap. maybe 15 million, but nowhere near 46. They highball the number so as to create a false sense of crisis.

Instead of starting with tort reform and many other less intrusive avenues to lower healthcare costs, The liberals immediately decided to take over one sixth of the country's economy in a bold move toward socialism.

October 15, 2012 at 10:13 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

lu: Talking long and loud does not constitute facts. Nor does endless links to partisan POV's.

October 15, 2012 at 10:20 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

The one thing I have noticed about conservatives/reactionaries (yes they are the same)is that the same plan they vilify was applauded when one of their own proposed it. Rather hypocritical.

October 15, 2012 at 10:20 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Florida Passes Plan For Racially-Based Academic Expectations With Asians Highest Blacks Lowest

http://somedude68-1.newsvine.com/_news/2012/10/15/14447002-florida-passes-plan-for-racially-based-academic-expectations-with-asians-highest-blacks-lowest

Talk about not having faith in the black youth! Liberals, the unadulterated racists.

October 15, 2012 at 10:24 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

lu: Talking long and loud does not constitute facts. Nor does endless links to partisan POV's.

a) His links are from all types of sites, including Fox b) You offer absolutely no evidence and very little of anything else except insults

October 15, 2012 at 10:27 a.m.
dude_abides said...

conservative said... "One thing I have noticed that Liberals and Socialists ( yes, I know they are the same) constantly bring up in their argument for Socialized medicine is their charge of "obscene" profits by the insurance companies. Did you ever notice they never deem pornography obscene?"

So you believe that all liberals like pornography. You are 'ignorance on parade.' You think that caring about the poor and common decency are mutually exclusive. If I thought like you do, I'd have to say that because there have been Catholic priests who raped and molested little boys, everyone who worships in a church is a child rapist. Your frothing at the mouth is obscene.

October 15, 2012 at 10:43 a.m.
TOES02800 said...

Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released... and here is the chart to prove it The figures reveal that from the beginning of 1997 until August 2012 there was no discernible rise in aggregate global temperatures This means that the ‘pause’ in global warming has now lasted for about the same time as the previous period when temperatures rose, 1980 to 1996

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2217286/Global-warming-stopped-16-years-ago-reveals-Met-Office-report-quietly-released--chart-prove-it.html#ixzz29NYa0RlA Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Flawed science costs us dearly

Just for the hell of it.

October 15, 2012 at 10:44 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

lu: It's hard not to be insulting after reading post after post from leftist hacks. Hacks that are shallow, narrow minded, partisan driven, elitists, and hypocrites. You wouldn't know objectivism if it swatted you in the partisan mouth.

October 15, 2012 at 10:45 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

JD, there are plenty of posters here I disagree with that offer both substance and evidence to back it. You offer neither, so take a long walk off a short pier.

October 15, 2012 at 10:51 a.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

lu: What is substance? My opinion? What is evidence? Link that you would poo-poo. This forum accomplishes nothing but division. No minds are changed. Or will be changed. It's just for fun, I guess.

October 15, 2012 at 10:57 a.m.
conservative said...

Liberals and Socialists (yes, I know that they are the same) constantly use the words "obscene" profits when referring to the profits of the health insurance industry.

Why don't they give specifics? Is it because facts would undercut their desire and efforts to destroy the health insurance companies?

As of May 12, 2011, the profit margin of health insurance companies was 4.4%!!!

As of May 12, 2011, the profit margin of health insurance companies was 4.4%!!!

As of May 12, 2011, the profit margin of health insurance companies was 4.4%!!!

As of May 12, 2011, the profit margin of health insurance companies was 4.4%!!!

As of May 12, 2011, the profit margin of health insurance companies was 4.4%!!!

http://www.ahipcoverage.com/2011/05/14/fact-check-health-plans-profits-accounted-for-12-of-1-of-total-health-care-spending-in-2010/

October 15, 2012 at 11:03 a.m.
conservative said...

As of May 12, 2011, the profit margin of health insurance companies was 4.4%!!!

Own an AT&T product or subscribe to their service?

As of June 30, 2012 the profit margin of AT&T was 12.36%!!!

Do the same Liberals and Socialists (yes, I know that they are the same) rail about their "obscene" profits?

October 15, 2012 at 11:47 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I have learned things here, JD. You, on the other hand, can't comprehend learning something. Guess that stopped when you finished school. Pity.

October 15, 2012 at 12:06 p.m.
miraweb said...

Harp asks: Why did Obanma slough off the first debate?

I suppose it could have been strategic. If it was, it was bad strategy.

I've been watching Obama's TV appearances and in the past 3 - 4 months he, honestly, has looked a bit tired.

I'm hoping his handlers are including an afternoon nap in his prep and that they are locking the door and leaving Biden to handle running the world for a few days so he can focus.

Churchill won WWII with an afternoon nap. Obama needs to leave the "hardest working guy in DC" bit behind and start managing his rest.

The election will depend on turnout. You can see this when you compare the "likely voter" polls (Romney even or ahead by 2 pts) with the "registered voters" polls (Obama ahead by 5).

If turnout is high - the Democrats win. If turnout is low, it will go to the Republicans.

Ohio will be the dirtiest election we've seen in a generation.

October 15, 2012 at 12:12 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

lu: mean-spirited and incorrect.

October 15, 2012 at 12:35 p.m.
ibshame said...

"Jack_Dennis said... lu: It's hard not to be insulting after reading post after post from leftist hacks. Hacks that are shallow, narrow minded, partisan driven, elitists, and hypocrites. You wouldn't know objectivism if it swatted you in the partisan mouth"

And you of course can be objective? That's a joke, right? All anyone has to do is go back and read some of your comments to see just what a hypocrite and right leaning "hack" you are. You're like one of those gang members who stand on the sideline just waiting to get your hits in on the person being attacked. You cheer the right wing nut jobs on because they represent your views. You think if you don't actually write some of the idiocy they have been known to put out there it keeps you from being in the same class of wing nuts with them.

You decry regional bias yet you epitomize the worst of it by cheering on those who race bait and insult(like TOES the racist ignoramus). Most of the time it's easy to ignore the likes of you and people like TuDumb, TOES and some others but when you make comments like the one above and try to elevate yourself above the fray when you are usually right in the mix, it's time then to point out your hypocrisy. A hypocrite by any other name is still a hypocrite.

October 15, 2012 at 12:38 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your words, darlin'

This forum accomplishes nothing but division. No minds are changed. Or will be changed. It's just for fun, I guess.

October 15, 2012 at 12:41 p.m.
miraweb said...

Jack -

There are certainly grade-school food fights that break out here from time to time (I don't think I have heard "dumbass" in any other conversation since the 4th grade).

However - I have seen thoughtful conversations also break through from time to time. I think it is worth having a discussion on what kind of country we want to build for our kids.

Politicians think it is about the votes. The rest of us think it is about our lives.

October 15, 2012 at 12:41 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

lu: Thanks, little lady.

October 15, 2012 at 12:47 p.m.
miraweb said...

Romney bails on his Thursday appearance on The View. Five smart American women asking questions is just too scary, I guess.

"It was no longer going to work in the campaign schedule but Mrs. Romney is very excited to join the ladies of The View."

An unnamed Romney spokesperson

"We were looking forward to it. Over the weekend, his people said that he had scheduling problems and would not be coming on with us. Nor at this point did he feel that he could reschedule. He can change his mind and we hope he does. It would be our pleasure to have him on the program."

Barbara Walters

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/10/mitt-romney-cancels-on-the-view.html

October 15, 2012 at 12:56 p.m.
miraweb said...

Time reports both campaigns agreed that the moderator would “not ask follow-up questions or comment on either the questions asked by the audience or the answers of the candidates during the debate.

But Crowley herself was not involved in that agreement, and the two campaigns have expressed concern that some of her recent comments suggest she plans to take a larger role in the forum.

“Once the table is kind of set by the town hall questioner, there is then time for me to say, hey, wait a second, what about X, Y and Z?” Crowley told CNN last week. “[T]hey launch the discussion and then the moderator furthers the discussions.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/15/both-sides-worried-that-candy-crowley-will-ask-questions/

October 15, 2012 at 1:10 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Mira said "Romney bails on his Thursday appearance on The View. Five smart American women asking questions is just too scary, I guess." Five smart American women, Mira? Holy Moly.

libshame; no hypocrisy here.

October 15, 2012 at 1:16 p.m.
miraweb said...

If Mitt were a gay latina -

October 15, 2012 at 1:18 p.m.
miraweb said...

Robert Reich's "Memo to the President":

You need to be yourself, and one of your qualities that the public finds reassuring is your steadiness and authenticity, by contrast to Romney’s unsteady flip-flopping and apparent willingness to say and be anything. But you will need to be more energetic and passionate.

http://marketplayground.com/2012/10/15/robert-reich-a-memo-to-president-barack-obama-on-the-next-presidential-debate/

October 15, 2012 at 1:22 p.m.
miraweb said...

If you're running away from Barbara Walters and Whoopi Goldberg, just exactly how prepared are you for Achmadinijad and Assad?

October 15, 2012 at 1:24 p.m.
miraweb said...

Something I didn't know - apparently Karl Rove was behind the Medicare prescription drug benefit. He thought it would wrap up Florida for George W. That may explain why the party of "fiscal conservatives" pushed it through without any pesky discussions about how to pay for it.

And George W has taken up painting. Dogs and Texas landscapes are his focus, now.

http://nymag.com/news/politics/elections-2012/jeb-bush-2012-10/index1.html

October 15, 2012 at 1:35 p.m.
dude_abides said...

When Rob Moore, chief financial officer of Pepper Pike-based Murray Energy, discussed this with WWVA, he said that managers "communicated to our workforce that the attendance at the Romney event was mandatory, but no one was forced to attend."

WTF ??

October 15, 2012 at 1:37 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Romney should have just thought of 'The View' as a family of sister wives, only a little less subservient.

October 15, 2012 at 1:42 p.m.
miraweb said...

TQQ mutters something or other

If you don't want to face Barbara Walters, then you politely refuse the invitation.

Running off into the night a couple of days before the show is pretty lame.

Who flip-flops on Barbara Walters?

October 15, 2012 at 1:51 p.m.
ibshame said...

"tu_quoque said...

I'm not afraid of dog shiat, I just don't want to step in it and I imagine that Romney doesn't as well."

No, I'm sure he would prefer having his dog shiat flying in face as his dog sits strapped atop the family car.

October 15, 2012 at 2:05 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

In his 11:04 p.m. post last night J_D included a link to an article (Village Voice) by David Mamet in which the writer/director makes his case for why he switched from being a liberal to a conservative. J_D encourages all "lefties" to read it. I suppose he thinks that showcasing a famous person who claims to have awoken from his "brain-dead" liberalism is somehow giving more credibility to conservatism.

For those of you who might not have read it, I encourage you to do so. It's a hoot. Here's the link again:

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-03-11/news/why-i-am-no-longer-a-brain-dead-liberal/

Good luck on making sense of his rambling, convoluted thinking. The guy makes no sense whatsoever. While I have enjoyed some of his movies (never seen any of his plays), and his reputation as a good writer/director is well deserved, I suppose, the poor fool is obviously as scatter-brained as the straw man in the Wizard of OZ when it comes to his thinking on what constitutes liberalism and conservatism.

First of all, I seriously question anyone who, in his 60s, is just now beginning to take stock of his political and philosophical views and has a complete reversal of his thinking in that regard. There is something seriously amiss with people like that, no matter what their claim to fame otherwise. Furthermore, he talks about how his previous liberal worldview that "everything is wrong with the world" is somehow not an accurate view. Well, duh! I don't know where he ever got the cock-eyed notion that liberals think that way anyway. Whatever notion of liberalism Mamet entertained, it's something I could scarcely relate to.

J_D, you conservatives are more than welcome to admit someone like Mamet to your ranks. He truly is "brain-dead" in his thinking and it's no wonder he switched sides. Thanks for posting that link for all of us to see further evidence of the twisted, incoherent conservative mind.

BTW...here is a link to an article in which Plexico Gingrich gives a funny but accurate rebuttal to everything that Mamet says. It's priceless.

http://www.ruthlessreviews.com/771/hackwatch-david-mamet-why-i-am-no-longer-a-brain-dead-liberal

October 15, 2012 at 2:17 p.m.
degage said...

dude did you know Obamas grandfather had 5 wives and his dad was still married to his first wife when he married obamas mother. Romney has been married to the same woman for 40 yrs. get off this crap of the mormon of old. Mormons haven't practiced polygamy for over 100 yrs. You deminish your post by harping on this BS.

October 15, 2012 at 2:18 p.m.
ibshame said...

"degage said... dude did you know Obamas grandfather had 5 wives and his dad was still married to his first wife when he married obamas mother. Romney has been married to the same woman for 40 yrs. get off this crap of the mormon of old. Mormons haven't practiced polygamy for over 100 yrs. You deminish your post by harping on this BS."

Maybe no one told you this but the reason Mitt Romney's Father was born in Mexico is because his Grandfather fled to Mexico so he could practice polygamy. Of course polygamy is just one of the things Mormons no longer practice unfortunately they still have enough left that they do practice that is outside MAINSTREAM religious beliefs such as baptizing the dead as one example.

October 15, 2012 at 2:30 p.m.
miraweb said...

I guess the Romney campaign calculated that they are far enough ahead that bailing in front of 3.8 million women of prime voting age was no biggie.

Plus all of Romney's donors are in New York this week at a "retreat" at the Waldorf-Astoria. I mean, a man has to have his priorities. There could be smoked-salmon!

October 15, 2012 at 2:30 p.m.
degage said...

ibshame, You mormon and christian haters need to get a life. When my baby died at the catholic hospital 54 yrs ago the priest baptised her without our permission. So catholics do also . What difference does it make to you athiest.

October 15, 2012 at 2:38 p.m.
ibshame said...

Looks like Dr. DesJarlais's past is coming back to haunt him some more: "NASHVILLE — A Washington-based group says it has filed a complaint against U.S. Rep. Scott DesJarlais, R-Tenn., a physician, for “conducting an inappropriate sexual relationship with a patient in violation of the law” a dozen years ago.

“Tennessee law is crystal clear,” said Melanie Sloan, executive director of Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington in a statement.

She said “doctors are prohibited from engaging in sexual relationships with patients. The only question remaining is, now that Tennessee authorities are aware of Rep. DesJarlais’ blatantly unethical and scurrilous conduct, what are they going to do about it?”

They want to know what Tennessee authorities are going to do about it? PROBABLY NOTHING. Those voters in his district are going to send him back to Congress because after all as one put it the other day, he's a Repub who will vote against Obama. It's so amazing how all these self-righteous, hypocritical jerks want to tell women what they can and can't do with their bodies. Yet when one like DesJarlais is faced with the CONSEQUENCES of his actions then he expects the woman to make the RIGHT CHOICE to let him off the hook so he can preserve his precious career and lifestyle. Talk about a hypocrite.

October 15, 2012 at 2:43 p.m.
ibshame said...

"degage said... ibshame, You mormon and christian haters need to get a life. When my baby died at the catholic hospital 54 yrs ago the priest baptised her without our permission. So catholics do also . What difference does it make to you athiest."

It was just as wrong for the Catholic Priest to baptize your baby WITHOUT your permission as it is for Mormons to baptize dead people without the consent or permission of the family members of the dead person. It was one of the reasons they were told to stop baptizing Jews because some of their family members had registered very STRONG objections to the practice. As for me being an atheist, no I'm not one. However, some of these so-called "HEAVEN BOUND" true-believers are going to bust the gates of hell wide open.

October 15, 2012 at 2:50 p.m.
chatt_man said...

ibshamed if all I could write about was what everyone already knows, a doctor should act professional at all times with their patients. All the things going on, and ibshame can't find anything better than DesJarlais to write about.

We're a shoein for November

October 15, 2012 at 2:52 p.m.
miraweb said...

Romney's world apparently has voters, women voters, and then - the people who really matter:

"All events are closed to the public and you should treat all statements, whether made during formal presentation or informal conversations, as off the record."

"Please be mindful of the security and confidentiality of your meeting notes and materials. Please do not post updates or information about the meeting on blogs, social media such as Facebook and Twitter, or in traditional media."

Letter from the Romney Campaign to attendees at the big hoe-down at the Waldorf-Astoria (not that there are any cell phone cameras in NYC that might catch some rich jerk saying something bad).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/15/top-romney-donors-descend-on-new-york/

October 15, 2012 at 3:01 p.m.
fairmon said...

niraweb said......

I'm hoping his handlers are including an afternoon nap in his prep and that they are locking the door and leaving Biden to handle running the world for a few days so he can focus.

It appears he is sleeping often and well but his timing appears to be real bad. Would it not be better to leave the world unattended a while than leave Biden in charge?

Romney may be a savvy and intelligent business man but Obama is street smart and a street fighter. He will kick a man in the balls, hit from behind whatever is needed to gain an advantage.

October 15, 2012 at 3:01 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Religion has no place in this election. But you left wing loons seem determined to bring it up ad-nauseam.

October 15, 2012 at 3:04 p.m.
ibshame said...

"chatt_man said... ibshamed if all I could write about was what everyone already knows, a doctor should act professional at all times with their patients. All the things going on, and ibshame can't find anything better than DesJarlais to write about. We're a shoein for November"

If by we you mean the Repubs are a shoein for November it's because of where you live not because it doesn't matter what this jerk did. Wingnuts are always talking about how President Obama was never properly VETTED but we all know that he was and IF there had been anything at all (that even hinted of this type of scandal) in his past it wouldn't matter if it happened 5 years ago or 20 years ago Wing nuts would have been all over it. So don't give me this bullsh*t about it not mattering because it does.

Here you have a self-righteous, psuedo pious jerk telling the public he's PRO-LIFE however, you have a transcript of him telling a woman to get an abortion so he can protect his career then you have the audacity to say it's NOTHING? But then considering how Mitt Romney has flipped and flopped as well as talking out of both sides of his mouth it's no small wonder you consider this NOTHING.

October 15, 2012 at 3:11 p.m.
ibshame said...

"Jack_Dennis said... Religion has no place in this election. But you left wing loons seem determined to bring it up ad-nauseam."

You're so easy sometimes until I almost feel sorry for you but then I don't. You want to leave religion out of this election right? Tell you what when the right wing loons stop calling President Obama a Muslim(which by the way is far more mainstream than being a Mormon) then you can talk about leaving religion out. Mormonism is not a mainstream religion no matter how much you pretend it is. IT IS NOT. Not in the past, not in the present and unless Mitt Romney is elected President it won't be in the future. Which is probably what motivates him to be so desperate to win at all costs.

October 15, 2012 at 3:15 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

So libshame; you would prefer a Muslim president to a Mormon? Is that what you're saying?

October 15, 2012 at 4:07 p.m.
miraweb said...

Murray Energy, the "you will attend" coal company, seems to have about 3000 employees.

And exactly 500 guys signed the letter? Not 479 or 531?

This really smells of damage control.

If a man has the lowball ethics to write that letter that got into the news, it isn't hard to guess what he might do when his hand get caught in the cookie jar.

I'm guessing he really didn't know it is wrong to bully and intimidate the people who work for you to vote the way you prefer. If you are that used to bullying your staff you might not even notice that you broke the law.

October 15, 2012 at 4:13 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Republicans put their political aspirations above God. They won't read the Book of Mormon, for fear they'll discover something they can't ignore.

Liberals have no problem with Desjarlais having sexual relations with an African American patient, it's just that he was married at the time, and it was his 4th affair, by his count. Liberals have no problem with Desjarlais' choice to seek an abortion for the woman who was pregnant with his child, it's just that he paints himself to be pro life. Liberals have no problem with conservatives voting their conscience, it's just when conservatives have no conscience and vote for pigs that makes us wince and sigh.

October 15, 2012 at 4:20 p.m.
miraweb said...

Here are the results of another of King Coal's Bob Murray's letter writing campaigns:

Ohio University gave the brush-off to a major Ohio coal company in October after company officials sent a letter to the OU Trustees and the Ohio Board of Regents urging the "removal" of some OU administrators and faculty for allegedly opposing the state's coal industry.

"I just said 'nuts' to that," recalled OU President Robert Glidden Friday. Glidden added that though the letter in question was not signed by coal operator Robert Murray, CEO of the Alledonia-based Ohio Valley Coal Co., he believes Murray was behind it. The letter also reportedly went to Glidden and a dean of OU's Eastern Campus in Belmont County.

OU and Ohio Valley are on opposite sides in a dispute over whether Ohio Valley should be allowed to mine for coal the company owns underneath Dysart Woods, a rare old-growth forest in Belmont County. OU owns the forest, which it uses as a land lab, and which is considered Ohio's most significant stand of virgin timber.

OU has not publicly opposed the most recent mining plan, but has said it needs to have it examined by its scientific experts.

Ol' "fire 'em" Bob has a long history.

http://www.athensnews.com/ohio/article-14330-ou-responds-defiantly-to-criticism-from-coal-company.html

October 15, 2012 at 4:27 p.m.
miraweb said...

My favorite paragraph from that article:

Also in 2001, Murray was acquitted of charges that he had physically assaulted Athens-based environmentalist Chad Kister. The assault allegedly took place during a break in a hearing by the Ohio Reclamation Commission in Columbus, which both Murray and Kister attended.

http://www.athensnews.com/ohio/article-38107-activist-group-files-elections-complaints-against-feisty-ohio-coal-operator.html

October 15, 2012 at 4:29 p.m.
dude_abides said...

When Rob Moore, chief financial officer of Pepper Pike-based Murray Energy, discussed this with WWVA, he said that managers "communicated to our workforce that the attendance at the Romney event was mandatory, but no one was forced to attend."

Local news radio WWVA has received several emails from workers claiming that the company records names of workers that don't attend those types of events.

I'll take their word over yours tu_. I mean, did managers communicate to other salaried managers ONLY? Seems 'workforce' might include more than just that slice of salaried employees you believe management communicated to. It was 'communicated' to the press that nobody was paid for the rally. Does this include the 'forced-to-go' slice of salaried employees, and the non-salaried workforce? Oh, wait, you don't believe the non-salaried miners are included under the term workforce. All we really know is that some people were told they had to go be a backdrop for a partisan event, and nobody got paid, so as not to give the appearance of partisanship. I don't care if it's one person, really, it's crookeder'n hell.

October 15, 2012 at 4:43 p.m.
miraweb said...

Here is one more letter from the literary Mr. Murray - this time to Utah Governor John Huntsman after the Crandall Canyon mine collapse killed 6 miners.

". . . It is unfortunate that I must be distracted from our rescue efforts to write this private letter to you, but, if you persist in your statements and your course of action, you governor, are going to jeopardize the 700 jobs in Carbon and Emery County. I cannot maintain them alone, and I definitely cannot do it if I'm going to be your whipping boy."

Murray then laid off 300 workers in Utah - at a different mine - as his revenge.

He's a real prince. Remember that when you see the Romney ad that has his workers in it.

If you kept reading on the Ohio academics article you would have seen that the letter was signed by the heads of three of Bob Murray's divisions.

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6722893

October 15, 2012 at 4:44 p.m.
miraweb said...

Here is Romney's speech - notice there is only one miner in that view that ever cracks a smile.

October 15, 2012 at 4:47 p.m.
dude_abides said...

tu_merity: The audacity to be coy when discussing others' livelihoods. Expressed, usually, from the fast lane of a pre-paved liferoad. See: 1)Cruella Deville, 2)Wicked Bitch of the East

October 15, 2012 at 4:52 p.m.
miraweb said...

Yeah - I always get big time chuckles when a guy throws a few hundred people out of work cause he's just sort of ticked off.

Funny stuff!

October 15, 2012 at 5:19 p.m.
miraweb said...

Sure. People at rallies don't want to smile or chant or clap (except for the boss).

And when you clap for the boss don't you usually let your face know, too?

That's just how folks behave. Must be why they call them rallies.

October 15, 2012 at 5:21 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Not any more than I can produce whistle blowing communications from any other industries that treat workers like slaves, tu_. Of particular interest, btw, is your smug opinion that Murray walked on an assault charge. This is what the average middle class worker doesn't, for some reason, see when choosing who to vote for! The wedge issues (God, guns, gays, etc.) you people use are possibly the most divisive, and therefore effective tools there are for divorcing power from the masses. Murray tries to come off as some sort of John Galt, but strikes me as more of a Tony Hayward. lol

October 15, 2012 at 5:29 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Harp3339 said: “Another woulda, coulda, shoulda story in the most liberal rag on earth, the NYT....another supporting article for your opinion ML, you are consistent.”

Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing, Harp3339. You write a post telling us that there are a lot of people out there who could buy health insurance but don’t do it. I respond to your post and provide a link to article about an individual who probably could have purchased health insurance, but didn’t and you rant about the story because it appears in the NYT.

Why is this, Harp3339? It seems to me that facts are facts. In this case, the facts are that health care insurance in the individual market is very costly, and many of the people who purchase health insurance in the individual market are considered to be high risk by the insurance industry. These facts are not going to change regardless of who publishes the story.

New York, NY, July 21, 2009—The individual health insurance market is not a viable option for the majority of uninsured adults, a new report from The Commonwealth Fund finds. Seventy-three percent of people who tried to buy insurance on their own in the last three years did not purchase a policy, primarily because premiums were too high.

In addition, among adults with individual coverage or who tried to buy coverage in the past three years, 57 percent said it was very difficult or impossible to find coverage they could afford, 47 percent said it was very difficult or impossible to find a plan with the coverage they needed, and 36 percent were denied coverage or charged more because of a pre-existing condition, or had the condition excluded from their coverage.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/News/News-Releases/2009/Jul/New-Report-Individual-Health-Insurance-Market-Failing-Consumers.aspx

October 15, 2012 at 5:33 p.m.
miraweb said...

It is amazing that Murray suddenly discovered (after three deaths and ten years) that the Tower Mine might be, perhaps, unsafe. This epiphany came just days after his fight with Governor Huntsman.

Another perspective from 2007:

Some big-business politicians have called for a congressional inquiry. Utah governor Jon Huntsman announced August 23 that he has set up a Utah Mine Safety Commission that will conduct a separate investigation.

The announcement came a few hours after Huntsman, who has sought to distance himself from Murray, publicly attacked the mine owner for “unconscionable” behavior toward the six trapped workers’ families.

Murray responded in a letter to the governor, publicized widely in Utah daily newspapers. Asserting that the governor’s remarks were damaging the company’s reputation, it read, “If you persist in your statements and course of action, you, Governor, are going to jeopardize 700 jobs in Carbon and Emery Counties. I cannot maintain them alone, and I definitely cannot do it if I am going to be your whipping boy.”

A few days later Murray announced the layoffs.

http://www.themilitant.com/2007/7133/713301.html

Huntsman was right to stand his ground. Safe mining practices would have saved both lives and jobs, but those mines did not have a good history. The fine on the Crandall Canyon collapse was the highest ever at that time.

October 15, 2012 at 5:56 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Yu_ make me laugh. You can't even wait. You supply my argument re: the emails so you can get on with it.

October 15, 2012 at 6:02 p.m.
miraweb said...

The Tower Mine (or Aberdeen, as it is followed in the safety records) reopened after six months. The miners who did not transfer to Illinois may not have been eligible for unemployment benefits after the layoff.

Murray said the miners would have to work three weeks on, one week off - and could visit their families in Utah on their own dime. A lot of miners didn't take that deal.

The local mayor said:

"The resource is too rich there. With newer technology down the road, I guarantee you that they’ll finish that mine. It’s tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars there.”

And they did.

October 15, 2012 at 6:09 p.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel said.....

In addition, among adults with individual coverage or who tried to buy coverage in the past three years, 57 percent said it was very difficult or impossible to find coverage they could afford, 47 percent said it was very difficult or impossible to find a plan with the coverage they needed, and 36 percent were denied coverage or charged more because of a pre-existing condition, or had the condition excluded from their coverage.

What is not going to make it more affordable? My premims just increased plus deductibles and co-pays went up. How many people do you know as I do that don't have insurance that could by giving up a few "wants" not needs. Just one example; this person has an I-phone with all the apps, a new leased automobile, Cable TV with all services, a netflix account, eats out more often than fixing at home, a short over night week end trip about once per month plus a week plus vacation each year. They do not have health care insurance but could with some life style adjustments. They are one of those in the can't afford it crowd. I assume they will now pay the penalty tax or get insurance?

Have you thought about why the insurance companies love Obamacare so much? Who do you think wrote the AHCA? No, not the sponsors, guess again. Keep looking you can probably find the truth in the library of congress.

October 15, 2012 at 6:19 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Obama blames Hillary for Libya, Kerry for the debate and Bush for everything else.--Rush.

So true

October 15, 2012 at 6:22 p.m.
miraweb said...

If it was about safety, there would be 12 people alive today who died in those two mines. Three men died at Tower. Six died in the collapse at Crandall Canyon. Three rescuers also died at Crandall.

At that time, Tower had an accident rate twice the national average. Funny how Murray never noticed that.

Bob Murray closed those mines because his ego was bruised. Huntsman let him, because they were unsafe.

Utah is a "right to work" state. Most of the miners were non-union. They asked the mine workers' union to represent them in the investigation.

My grandfather was a mine safety engineer. He told me about one mine he closed.

When he came back up out of the mine he pulled supports out of the wall so it would be impossible for any person to go back down there again.

There may be a lot of reasons those miners didn't smile.

October 15, 2012 at 6:32 p.m.
fairmon said...

The term affordable in the health care act is a little misleading since people with current coverage will be paying higher premiums. As I understand it those not previously insured that could have been will now have to pay for insurance whether they want it or not if their income is a certain percent about the poverty line. Or, those preferring to continue not being insured will pay a penalty that will be called a tax. Those below the poverty line will get assistance with the cost.

Do you recall the words "if you like what you have you can keep it". That is not holding true except for some public employees where tax payers wind up paying for their health care coverage. So, there are some people that will not be affected and have the experience of most people.

October 15, 2012 at 6:37 p.m.
raygunz said...

OT,Iknow,but thought some posters may have missed this since it's up on a "far left" site. heh!

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/15/1144772/-Republicans-lose-the-fight-to-keep-their-Nader-Gary-Johnson-off-the-ballot?detail=hide

October 15, 2012 at 6:37 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Nothing to run on = let's talk about the Tower mine.

October 15, 2012 at 6:39 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

Joy Behar favors BHO. What else you need to know?

October 15, 2012 at 6:41 p.m.
miraweb said...

I know, Jack - it's always less fun when Romney is holed up doing debate prep.

We just don't get the really good gaffes on those days.

If he'd done more of that earlier in the campaign, he might have broken this thing open by now. It only seems to be when he is standing in front of people and saying things that the trouble starts. :-)

October 15, 2012 at 6:46 p.m.
miraweb said...

He's kind of like if Biden were president but didn't have any foreign policy experience or knowledge of how to work with the Congress.

It could be a fun four years - at least for the comedians.

October 15, 2012 at 6:47 p.m.
conservative said...

As of May 12, 2011, the profit margin of health insurance companies was 4.4%!!!

Would Liberals and Socialists (yes, I know that they are the same) use and buy a product that they would also use to hypocritically rail against the health insurance companies "obscene" profits?

You betcha!

As of June 30, 2012 the profit margin of Intel Corporation was 20.94%!!!

October 15, 2012 at 6:57 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Obama weighs in on Nicki Minaj, Mariah Carey’s ‘American Idol’ feud: ‘I think they are going to be able to sort it out’

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/tv-movies/obama-thinks-war-avoided-american-idol-front-article-1.1183906#ixzz29PZJ8w3o

What an out of touch bastard. With everything going on, it's comforting to know that American idol has it's place in Obama's "busy" schedule.

October 15, 2012 at 7 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Where is the outrage over college tuition costs? Oh, well, they're liberal indoctrination centers, so they get a pass. College tuition costs have outpaced inflation by 500% in the last 20 years. Why is the president ok with that?

October 15, 2012 at 7:04 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Tu_quoque said to Miraweb: “they understand what that POS TheObozo is trying to do to them. Why don’t you venture up to coal country and tell a few of the nice gentlemen how you are supporting The Chosen One and see how many smile at you. Make sure you have the E.R. number on speed dial … honey.

Enough with the GOP and Romney fibs, Tu_quoque. Everyone knows what is going on with the coal industry – including Miller, the GOP and Mitt Romney. While it’s true the EPA has enacted some new rules, coal’s biggest problem is cheap gas:

“Two things about coal are true right now. First, the U.S. coal industry really is in decline — the nation is burning far less coal to generate electricity than it did five years ago. Second, the Environmental Protection Agency under President Obama really has enacted a bunch of new rules that will require coal-fired power plants to curb their pollution. Those rules will all cost money.

But it’s not exactly true that the Obama administration is causing coal’s current decline. That’s the argument that Mitt Romney and other Republicans have made lately, accusing Obama of waging a “war on coal.” And the charge is somewhat misleading. The U.S. coal industry would be struggling even without Obama’s pollution rules. Coal’s biggest problem at the moment is the recent influx of cheap natural gas in the United States, not the EPA. That’s a situation that even Mitt Romney would have a hard time reversing.

The clearest way to see this is by checking out the latest report (pdf) from the Brattle Group, an industry consulting firm (via Grist’s David Roberts). There’s some grim news in here for the coal industry. Between 59 and 77 gigawatts worth of coal capacity will likely be retired by 2016 — somewhere between one-fifth and one-quarter of the country’s coal-fired plants. That’s larger than previous estimates. But, the Brattle report concludes, market forces are the main culprit here:

Over the past few years, natural gas has become extraordinarily cheap, thanks to refined “fracking” techniques that allow companies to extract more gas from shale rock. What’s more, wind turbines have been sprouting up around the country and are getting steadily cheaper. The result? Both energy sources have been displacing coal. That would have occurred regardless of anything the EPA did.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/10/15/the-coal-industry-would-be-in-decline-even-without-obamas-policies/

October 15, 2012 at 7:06 p.m.
miraweb said...

My grandfather is quite safely dead and his actions can now only be judged by God.

In this case, God might approve a little vandalism.

October 15, 2012 at 7:11 p.m.
miraweb said...

There is now a YouTube channel dedicated to the GaffeMaster himself.

All of those Golden Oldies

"Corporations are people, my friend!"

"I care about Americans. I'm not concerned about the very poor."

"I like being able to fire people!"

"I have some great friends that are Nascar Team Owners!"

Order now and you get that very special collection - "Let's not turn the tragic deaths of people into campaign attack rhetoric!" So nice, Romney had to be asked twice!

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA9EED48F3583D6FC

October 15, 2012 at 7:38 p.m.
alprova said...

degage wrote: "dude did you know Obamas grandfather had 5 wives and his dad was still married to his first wife when he married obamas mother."

Hussein Onyango Obama had only three wives, and there is no proof whatsoever that Barack Obama, Sr. was still married to his first wife when he married Ann Dunham, despite what World Net Daily claims.

October 15, 2012 at 7:42 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

New Threats to Riot if Obama Loses Election

http://www.infowars.com/new-threats-to-riot-if-obama-loses-election/

I hope they do riot, so as to prove to the majority of Americans just who these brain dead Obamites really are.

October 15, 2012 at 7:46 p.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "Are you saying neither you nor your competition would reduce the price if all taxes, fees etc. were eliminated?"

Not very likely.

"You did say you had an accounting background and you can say regardless of how long your money is tied up and earning nothing is no problem."

I am a licensed accountant. And because I pay for my inventory the minute I purchase it, it does not cost me a thing if it takes some time to move it.

"Sounds like one of those if it sounds too good to be true it probably is situations."

Trust me, it isn't.

"Are the products on consignment with somone else having their money in them?"

No. I purchase the inventory with my own funds.

October 15, 2012 at 7:47 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Obama: ‘We Got Back Every Dime’ of Bailout; CBO: Bailout Will Lose $24 Billion

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/obama-we-got-back-every-dime-bailout-cbo-bailout-will-lose-24-billion

Another Obama lie to the brain dead sheeple.

October 15, 2012 at 7:50 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Alpo says: "Sounds like one of those if it sounds too good to be true it probably is situations."

Trust me, it isn't.

So which is it, "isn't good" or "isn't true"?

October 15, 2012 at 7:53 p.m.
alprova said...

Harp3339 wrote: "Gary Johnson will not participate in any of the debates nor will he be provided equal time by any media."

Harp...I'm truly sorry for Gary Johnson, but the man only has the support of 6% of his own home State of New Mexico. Obama has the support of 49% and Romney has the support of 31%.

I'm not saying that what has transpired has been fair, but clearly a third wheel that polls so low is being purposely left out of the fray, in the fear that voting majorities will be threatened, by both major political parties.

October 15, 2012 at 7:53 p.m.
ibshame said...

"Jack_Dennis said... So libshame; you would prefer a Muslim president to a Mormon? Is that what you're saying?"

It's amazing how right wing nuts now want to keep religion out of the election. Yet for the last 3 1/2 years all they've done is to say that President Obama is a Muslim as if that was somehow something very obscene or untrustworthy. The Muslim religion dates back thousands of years and there are millions upon millions of members in every country across the globe. Mormonism dates back to the 1820's in the United States. Of course one of the tenets of their religion is their belief that Jesus Christ came to the United States following the Resurrection. I don't know what proof they have of that but to each his own.

When one looks closely into Mormonism it soon becomes quite obvious these are not your run of the mill "born again" bible thumpers. It's just the bible thumpers are no longer concerned about religion now that someone who clearly belongs to a religion outside the mainstream is now running to replace President Barack Obama the "secret Muslim." Wingnuts are a pathetic bunch of hypocrites.

October 15, 2012 at 7:56 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Moozlims are pussies anyway. A unknown video released in July gets seen and they go on a rampage killing any American they find. (so the Obama lie states).

Yet Christians get bashed on a regular basis and do nothing of the sort. And still the left has so much empathy towards islam.

October 15, 2012 at 8:06 p.m.
ibshame said...

"TOES02800 said... Moozlims are pussies anyway. A unknown video released in July gets seen and they go on a rampage killing any American they find. (so the Obama lie states). Yet Christians get bashed on a regular basis and do nothing of the sort. And still the left has so much empathy towards islam"

You're as easy as Jack_Dennis. One thing you evidently are not is a student of history. Because if you were you would know right away to stay from the argument that Christians don't kill. You probably never heard of the Crusades, the Spanish Inquistion, the Protestant Revolt, Hitler's solution for the Jews(which he also claimed to have done in the name of Christianity), the KKK and the list could go on of the number of murders and killings committed in the name of CHRISTIANITY. Maybe instead of posting all the ignorant bullsh*t videos you post, you should get you a HISTORY BOOK and start reading.

October 15, 2012 at 8:20 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

So, libshame; Is there an answer to my question in that novella?

October 15, 2012 at 8:29 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Golly Beav!! All three debate moderators have been liberals so far! Coinkidink? I think not!!

October 15, 2012 at 8:30 p.m.
miraweb said...

Strange how it seems like Obama is spending a lot of time trying to retain his humanity, despite Washington, and Romney is trying to find his to get there.

President Obama surprised campaign volunteers in Williamsburg Monday with an armful of pizzas. One volunteer said the half-hour visit to the campaign office was rejuvenating. The president is in Williamsburg preparing for tomorrow night's presidential debate with challenger Mitt Romney.

http://www.wvec.com/news/Obama-in-Williamsburg-174243741.html

October 15, 2012 at 8:33 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

I'dbeashamedtoo, Hitler was just nuts. And the other bulls_it you mention is so thousand years ago. The KKK killed in the name of the democratic party. It's nice to see the murderous muslims have a friend in you. You're a regular riot.

I stand by my initial claim, muslims are pussies.

October 15, 2012 at 8:37 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

I wonder if those pizzas passed the Moochelle caloric intake test.

October 15, 2012 at 8:39 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

"The same people who think Romney is responsible for a company he left 12 years ago are the same people who think that Obama is not responsible for the last four years of the US economy". --Rush

October 15, 2012 at 8:53 p.m.
TOES02800 said...

Tea Party Obama Phone Lady Ad [ObamaPhone]

Brilliant!

October 15, 2012 at 8:59 p.m.
ricardo said...

I think some of you conservatards are in this video.

October 15, 2012 at 9:14 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

libshame: the new islamic apologist.

October 15, 2012 at 9:27 p.m.
miraweb said...

Oops - they forgot to lock up Ryan during the debate prep:

Brian J. Antal, president of the Mahoning County St. Vincent De Paul Society, said that he was not contacted by the Romney campaign ahead of the Saturday morning visit by Ryan, who stopped by the soup kitchen after a town hall at Youngstown State University.

“We’re a faith-based organization; we are apolitical because the majority of our funding is from private donations,” Antal said in a phone interview Monday afternoon. “It’s strictly in our bylaws not to do it. They showed up there, and they did not have permission. They got one of the volunteers to open up the doors.”

He added: “The photo-op they did wasn’t even accurate. He did nothing. He just came in here to get his picture taken at the dining hall.”

Upon entering the soup kitchen, Ryan, his wife and three young children greeted and thanked several volunteers, then donned white aprons and offered to clean some dishes. Photographers snapped photos and TV cameras shot footage of Ryan and his family washing pots and pans that did not appear to be dirty.

“Had they asked for permission, it wouldn’t have been granted. … But I certainly wouldn’t have let him wash clean pans, and then take a picture,” Antal said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/15/charity-president-unhappy-about-paul-ryan-soup-kitchen-photo-op/

October 15, 2012 at 9:40 p.m.
miraweb said...

K Street Lobbyists Shine Up The Resumes

Republican K Streeters say campaign officials have privately given assurances that their résumés will be welcome.

That’s in contrast to policies President Barack Obama put in place in an executive order signed on the first day of his administration. Obama prohibited most federal registered lobbyists from joining his government, and he imposed new post-employment restrictions on his aides heading to influence jobs.

Romney, a one-time businessman, champions the private sector from the campaign trail. And corporate lobbyists — whose clients include oil, tobacco, health care, transportation and technology firms — function as the private sector’s representatives in Washington, D.C.

“I don’t know why any administration would handcuff themselves by blacklisting any group of people,” said Republican lobbyist Sam Geduldig, a partner with Clark Lytle Geduldig & Cranford.

“Republicans have issues with unions, trial attorneys, mainstream media, Hollywood and ivy league professors. But to ban any candidate from consideration for being associated with a specific industry would be closed-minded.”

http://www.rollcall.com/issues/58_29/Lobbyists-Might-Join-Romneys-Team-218230-1.html?pos=olobh

October 15, 2012 at 9:48 p.m.
miraweb said...

Yes, Paul Ryan - you have some real brass:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTZDMVGs16E

October 15, 2012 at 10:18 p.m.
Jack_Dennis said...

The real war on women.... The Exalted One drops Hillary into the hot oil. Nice work by the coward.

October 15, 2012 at 10:46 p.m.
dude_abides said...

He's a true pig, miraweb. Training his kids to be the same. A true learning experience for the children, acting like they're not better than the homeless.

October 15, 2012 at 10:52 p.m.
dude_abides said...

"I know that history and hell is full of people that can rationalize that way."

Strong words from the Whore of Babylon. So God's gonna care more about the proprietary rights of a coal baron than the Native Americans the land was stolen from? Does God keep a running tally on who is in power presently and cast people to hell according to the temporary law of the land? Skanktimonious you.

October 15, 2012 at 11 p.m.
miraweb said...

TQQ - It may not be your grandfather who lived because of the action of my grandfather but there is someone's grandfather who did.

October 15, 2012 at 11:02 p.m.
miraweb said...

Here is a link to the Jewish view on whether you can break rules to save a life:

In Judaism, human life is essential and so pikuach nefesh, the obligation to save a life in jeopardy, is considered a major value to uphold. This obligation applies to both an immediate threat and a less grave danger that has the potential of becoming serious.

Pikuach nefesh is derived from the biblical verse, “Neither shall you stand by the blood of your neighbor” (Lev. 19:16). According to pikuach nefesh a person must do everything in their power to save the life of another.

I believe Jesus expressed a similar view on certain occasions.

I'm pretty comfortable leaving my grandfather's fate to God. It kind of works that way whether I'm comfortable with it or not.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/pikuach_nefesh.html

October 15, 2012 at 11:15 p.m.
miraweb said...

Get some sleep, TQQ. I'm guessing with the day's events Clay will have something quite tasty for us very soon.

October 15, 2012 at 11:38 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Sweeeet! The tu_ de gras! Hey tu_! Wake up. What's rational about telling the natives there's neither eternal reward nor damnation?

October 15, 2012 at 11:54 p.m.
miraweb said...

From a strictly legal interpretation, the statute of limitations has expired. By that standard my grandfather is an innocent man. Sure you want to go there?

October 16, 2012 at 12:14 a.m.
miraweb said...

You have to have a way to judge if a law is good or bad. If bad it can be changed and improved but only if you can judge it as such. There are a lot of moral systems from Plato on down that tackle this problem. You don't need to believe in diety to have a system, but you need to have some sort of a moral standard.

So what are you measuring your laws against or do they never change for all time?

October 16, 2012 at 12:20 a.m.
miraweb said...

The law says he is innocent until proven guilty. The statute of limitations has run. There is no legal way to prove him guilty. If he is not innocent then your conclusion is based on something other than the law.

Most moral systems start with 'I don't feel this is right.' They shouldn't end there.

October 16, 2012 at 12:35 a.m.
miraweb said...

That's true - everyone does have to sort it out. No apologies there. Get to work, kiddo.

October 16, 2012 at 12:45 a.m.
miraweb said...

Roe v wade and obamacare are the law.

If you are making judgments about them you are using a moral system.

October 16, 2012 at 12:59 a.m.
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