published Tuesday, September 4th, 2012

''Official' prayers don't belong' and more Letters to the Editors

'Official' prayers don't belong

Controversy swirls around schools and civic groups that bring prayer to their activities. A cradle Catholic, I am always a bit puzzled and amused by Christians who are angered when told they must dispense with "official" prayers. To be perfectly frank, since I view most other Christians as my beloved brothers and sisters who have, unfortunately, gone astray, (are thus heretical,) I agree that your prayers, and those of Buddhists, Islamists, Wiccans, etc., should be left out of public organs for which we all pay. Isn't that what our Constitution says?

Regarding school prayer: Why not operate your own religious schools, where your children may pray freely? Then you must, of course, pay for two school systems. We Catholics pay for public schools because we believe that every child deserves a good education. We pay for our own because we know that public schools are incompetent to teach religion.

BILL LAUDEMAN


Christie speech full of selfishness

I had to listen to the speech delivered by Gov. Chris Christie again to make sure I heard what I thought he said as a spokesperson for his party. I was shocked as I listened. The "real" truth was twisted as usual. Misinformation dominated the message. The message was one of selfish intent and selfishness. I believe it was offensive and demeaning to the elderly, poor and others.

Criticism of teachers' unions and the "lifetime employment" for "bad" teachers was way, way off base. Teachers' unions only provide their members with due process if a problem arises. "Fundamentally reducing government" means a more dangerous workplace and "no benefits." Quite a deal for corporations! The "take it or leave it" mentality of insensitive corporate management will prevail as it did before government stepped in to halt their unspeakable practices if the Republican Party regains control of the White House.

The most compelling theme was "Choosing respect over love." That's the part that made me go back and listen to the speech again. After hearing these words, I am more convinced than ever before that the Republican Party and their presidential team of Romney and Ryan are definitely "not my kind of guys!"

MIKE CARTER

North Chattanooga


Another Wilkins lot unnecessary

Why would Wilkins Research build another parking lot when they admit they can't get their employees to use the extra parking lot they already have? Why would they then say they only plan to use it occasionally "for special events," but -- and here's the kicker -- they are going to spend $275,000 to build it?

Why did planning commission members quickly agree to approve the business' request and go beyond the city recommendations by allowing a through-way onto our dead-end street? Why did they not give any consideration that business expanse would increase traffic in one of the most congested areas in the city?

Furthermore, there are only two ways to leave our neighborhood. If they don't exit by Gunbarrel, they must drive down Joiner to East Brainerd Road, a path that would have them driving past East Brainerd Elementary School. Lynn Wilkins said she didn't want her employees to make left turns onto Gunbarrel. What about the safety concerns of increased traffic past an elementary school?

The proposed zoning change isn't needed to build a parking lot, and Wilkins Research owns other homes on Joiner directly behind their building. Some have speculated a zoning change will open the doors to additional expanse.

DEBRA SCHUH


Gun prohibition is what's needed

An assault rifle is only useful to (a) intimidate human beings, (b) injure human beings, (c) kill human beings. It is unlikely that this is included in "the right to bear arms."

Handguns have exactly the same functions and no more. The argument can be made that handguns are useful to kill rats and other vermin. Perhaps so, but vermin don't justify large-caliber handguns. Another argument is that handguns can be used to develop the skill of target shooting. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The standard argument for civil ownership of these guns is "people kill people, guns don't." If these weapons were not readily available, people would have to find some other not-so-convenient or easy way to kill people.

The solution to his problem is the prohibition of any gun other than full-sized military machine guns that have a barrels shorter than, say, 11 inches that can fire more than one bullet for each pull on the trigger. Military and the police could wear spring clip holsters.

ROBERT F. CAHILL

Hixson


Obama record is disappointing

I am so disappointed in our president -- I cry daily. I had such hopes for our country when he said he would shut down Guantanamo prison, and I was sure he would make Bush and his mob pay for their crimes and stop these insane wars, as he promised.

G.W. Bush's last year as president launched 46 Hellfire missiles, one every 40 days. Obama has fired 320; that's one every four days. I'm talking "drones" that our Congress has just appropriated $20 billion to surveil us.

Our tax money just bought a drone for a police station in Texas (of course); cost, $300,000! And there was a protest demonstration Aug. 27 where the towns-people want to prevent the City Council from spending their scarce money on a tank!

Our first drone attack was in Yemen 2004, where 14 mothers and 21 children were vaporized. The total now is over 2,000 innocent civilians. I know, in good conscience, I can't support the murder of these precious people, so I won't be selecting a president. I don't cotton to serial killers, no matter which party rules.

May God forgive us our brutality. My country tears of thee.

ROBERT LEE BROWN

Missionary Ridge


GOP platform is mind-boggling

Republican candidates and GOP stars tried hard to run away from their schizophrenic and mind-boggling party platform.

Republicans say, "Get government out of our lives." Cut regulations on corporations and the financial industry. Fix Medicare/Medicaid with vouchers for insurance companies that may not accept them for any number of reasons. Give grants for Social Security for investment firms -- the same firms that decry less regulations than before 2008's financial crisis.

Contrast that with a platform that outlaws abortions for any reason -- rape, incest, a woman's health; supports vaginal probes; suppresses voter rights with overblown fraud claims; promotes self-deportation; and shamelessly panders to the religious right to substitute constitutional law with the Bible. Paul Ryan says, "Our rights come from nature and God, not the government!" Really? This platform is the most government-intrusive, draconian and frightening in America's history.

Economies are cyclical. Little can be done by politicians to affect them except negatively by four years of Republican obstructionism. No new revenues from the wealthy to balance the budget, but plenty of taxes to burden the middle class. New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie said, "Respect over love." Respect for big money, no love for the people.

Dig out the facts and vote smart!

GREG WILLIAMS

Signal Mountain

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Fendrel said...

BILL LAUDEMAN,

Very well said. Atheists like myself have no problem with someone saying a prayer, but don't make the rest of the world participate in it when you are representing our government. Feel free to teach the history or belief systems of the world's religions, but if you are trying to indoctrinate then do it on your own time, not in the public school system. Is that really asking so much?

September 4, 2012 at 8:55 a.m.
LibDem said...

But, without politicians to tell us when, where and how to pray, we'd do it all wrong.

September 4, 2012 at 2:35 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Greg Williams, your letter is on the mark. There is a good reaon the Repubs, during their sideshow, kept stressing the notion of "respect" for the politicians (namely themselves) who are going to be making the "hard" choices of cutting back and depriving the midlle class and the poor of even more. They were cleverly prepping their boot lickers to "respect" them as they give them the shaft and create more austerity, all the while coddling the fat cats and big business with continued tax cuts and corporate welfare.

I recall several of the speakers mentioning how we must all share in the burden of getting this economy moving again but not one of them ever made mention of asking the super-rich to share in that burden. Apparently they have done more than their fair share in creating all of these wonderful jobs for us and they have taken such bold risks in getting where they are. It is enough, I suppose, that we simply be allowed to admire their success as we strive to emulate their greatness, and as we wait for them to create more of those wonderful minimum-wage jobs that will get this country back on the road to greatness. What a joke.

So far it appears the Repubs are succeeding in hoodwinking their gullible middle-class and working-class supporters because those fawning, giddy attendees at the convention were licking up their phony speeches like a 2-yr.-old licking a lollipop.

September 4, 2012 at 4 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Excellent letter, Mr. Laudeman. But how else can the Hamilton County Commission grandstand except by praying and using tax payer's money in a case they will lose? Too bad those commissioners can't be sued individually. Or maybe they can with their continued violations.

The next commission meeting when to call to prayer is issued from the Commission minaret, everyone should begin praying aloud, whirl like dervishes, grab snakes and toss around in the air, speak in tongues, and call on the Flying Spaghetti Monster to touch the Commissioners with His Noodly Appendage in the holy names of Pasta and Pesto, His Chosen Disciples.

That would make great TV and publicity for the Hamilton County Commission, the Place that Time Forgot.

September 4, 2012 at 5:52 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

CONCLUSION:

Acts 5_Holy Bible"... And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:..."

But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

September 4, 2012 at 6:45 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

'Official' prayers don't belong*

Oh my! I would have thought one would represent the Catholic Faith much differently.

Please read this: Acts 4:19..Holy Bible

"... But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye..."

How could any true Christian ever believe that it is more noble to listen to man than it is to listen to Jesus Christ of Nazareth?

Please read what Jesus (through His Servant) says before You answer:

1 Timothy 2:8 "...I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting...."

Please, please remember, This is a Christian Nation...This is a Christian World (Much greater in number than any religion). Our Nation was founded on Christian principles. Even the first permanent settlement here was entirely Christian based with the approval of the Mayflower Compact. Who will You follow, Christian?

Ken ORR

September 4, 2012 at 6:59 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

"Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives (plural. David's marriage to many women didn't seem to ruffle God's feathers in the least; it was not because David had multiple wives that he was punishing him. So much for the notion that God only sancitifies marriage between one man and ONE woman) while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight (apparently women are mere objects or chattel to God and are worthy of being raped in public). You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'" Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." (The child dies seven days later. Apparently babies are not so special to God either, as he takes out his punishment of the father on them). 2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB

Yet another inspiring and uplifting Bible quote, exemplifying the ABSOLUTE love, goodness, and mercy of the all-loving Christian God.

September 4, 2012 at 7:15 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"This is a Christian Nation"

False.

"This is a Christian World"

False.

"Our Nation was founded on Christian principles."

False.

"Even the first permanent settlement here was entirely Christian based with the approval of the Mayflower Compact."

And the Constitution of the United States of America is a completely secular document from beginning to end. The Mayflower Compact plays no part in our government.

0/4. Try again.

September 4, 2012 at 7:20 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

A little maintenance: The above comment did not appear as intended, even after editing. The following is the corrected version: Regarding prohibiting prayer in Jesus Christ's Name:

Acts 5_Holy Bible"... And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

I don't think it came of 'nought'! Over two millennia later, well, You can't even sign a check in the United States without acknowledging Jesus Christ's birth.

September 4, 2012 at 7:21 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"You can't even sign a check in the United States without acknowledging Jesus Christ's birth."

And false again.

0/5.

September 4, 2012 at 7:23 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Poor Mr. Orr. He's been into the communion wine again, making up more tall tales, and telling all what a good Christian he is.

He'll quote you the Bible, tell false stories about gay people, claim credentials he doesn't possess, lie about his made-up quotes, lie about his copyrights, and never produce evidence for any of his claims.

Read Mr. Orr's babbling here. Notice the weasel-way he squirms when called out on his lies.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/sep/03/crutchfield-needs-to-stay-a-letters-to-the-editors/?opinionletters#comments

Remember the 9th Commandment — Thou Shalt Not Lie (unless you're a homophobic Christian and then it's OK).

September 4, 2012 at 7:38 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Easy123,

I know You are trying, and, You should be. But, could we please just look a little closer? Could we gather our information from the source? I want You encouraged, I'm not trying to dis You. The folks who really know about interpreting our Constitution are credentialed...they make up the Senate, and, House of Representatives>>>CONGRESS! Try, try, try to understand/learn from this:

"The Chaplain of the United States Senate opens each session of the United States Senate with a prayer, and provides and coordinates religious programs and pastoral care support for Senators, their staffs, and their families."

And, and, and now look at our Congressmen/Women in The United States House of Representatives!

Houston pastor Joel Osteen prayed before Congress Tuesday morning April 24, 2012 , asking God to use Representatives to carry out his divine plan for the U.S.

Here’s a full transcript of Osteen’s prayer. For video, visit the Hill website.

Father, we thank you that you show your goodness and your favor to the United States of America and those who govern it. We ask that you bless this House of Representatives and each member who serves in it.

Help these lawmakers to search their hearts that they may serve with dignity and honor and through them our nation will achieve the destiny that you have set before us. Give them wisdom as they make good decisions, courage that they will hold fast to your truth and compassion that all should prosper from their laws.

We receive your presence here today, and Father, we pray that these lawmakers will remain mindful of you, that they will honor you in everything that they do here. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen.

September 4, 2012 at 7:45 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Easy123 said this is false:

"You can't even sign a check in the United States without acknowledging Jesus Christ's birth."

ORRMEANSLIGHT says: "Just try dating your check using the Saudi Arabian calendar, or, the Chinese calendar, or, the Malayalam calendar,etc. etc.. Easy123, I am surprised at You!"

September 4, 2012 at 8:05 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

Our Constitution is secular. There is no question of that fact.

After all these years, I thought it was the Gregorian Calender! It's really the Jesus' Birthday Calender. You're a moron, Ken Orr. A complete and utter imbecile.

September 4, 2012 at 8:19 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Wow. That check stuff convinces me. That's great proof that God exists, Jesus walked on water, and the Holy Spook flies around like a invisible bat.

Science can stop now. Orr has presented the incontrovertible evidence the ages have awaited. Those absurdities in the Bible must be true! Hail Orr!

Or are you lying again?

September 4, 2012 at 8:26 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

daytonsdarwin, Easy123,

Please just consider saying,"Jesus, if You are real, please come into my heart. I am sorry, but, I just don't believe You are God, but, I would like to know the truth." Then, go about Your regular business. I want You to live eternally in Heaven. Now, call that a lie! kwo

September 4, 2012 at 10:12 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Easy123,

For all the names You have called me, well, just take this!

"I AM RUBBER, YOU ARE GLUE...THAT BOUNCES OFF ME, AND, STICKS ON YOU!!!

And, if that hurts You, well, the Truth doesn't hurt unless it is supposed to. kwo

And, while You are learning: Observe:

"Use your better judgment, most of what you read on the Internet are opinions, not facts. Even more so, opinions stated as facts." - Abraham Lincoln

September 4, 2012 at 10:20 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"Please just consider saying,"Jesus, if You are real, please come into my heart. I am sorry, but, I just don't believe You are God, but, I would like to know the truth." Then, go about Your regular business. I want You to live eternally in Heaven. Now, call that a lie!"

That's a lie. Please consider saying, "Knowledge, if you are real, please come into my brain. I am sorry, but, I just don't believe in you, but, I would like to know the truth."

"Use your better judgment, most of what you read on the Internet are opinions, not facts. Even more so, opinions stated as facts." - Abraham Lincoln

That is another lie.

September 4, 2012 at 10:23 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Still waiting for your evidence of your claims, Mr. Orr.

"Please Jesus, make Mr. Orr tell the truth if you are real. He's told so many lies in your name maybe you'd like to strike him down as you Father used to do innocent men, women, and children for His glory. Tell me, Jesus, is it OK for Mr. Orr to lie and be dishonest?"

Nothing, nada, zip. Seems that Jesus is on vacation and just as empty as you, Mr. Orr.

September 4, 2012 at 10:28 p.m.
adluna said...

More grass paved over so that Wilkins Research employees won't be inconvenienced? Really? And adding yet more traffic around East Brainerd Elementary School? Add the additional unnecessary traffic on what is now a quiet back street and you've got a triple for the greedy, thoughtless, money changers that are making the whole of East Brainerd a nightmare. It's time to stop the type of uncontrolled excess that is ruining our quality of life, not to mention threatening the safety and well being of our most valuable asset, our children. Would the late Madge H. Wilkins really think this eyesore would "make the community a better place"?

September 5, 2012 at 4:08 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

Old Easy believes like all atheists: Only they are the "intellectuals" and know the truth; everyone else(those who disagree) are morons who know nothing of the truth and are heading toward a hopeless grave. Right, Easy?

September 5, 2012 at 8:21 a.m.
Easy123 said...

joepulitzer,

"Only they are the "intellectuals""

No.

"and know the truth"

Nope, just constantly searching for it.

"everyone else(those who disagree) are morons"

Just those that neglect reason, logic and facts.

"who know nothing of the truth"

Some do, some don't.

"and are heading toward a hopeless grave."

We are all headed toward a hopeless grave. Our lives are all we know for sure that we have.

You were 1/5. Would you like to give it another shot?

September 5, 2012 at 8:45 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

Mr. Laudeman: Do you think Simon Peter prayed to Mary? Do you think Simon Peter molested male children? Sounds like you Catholics are there heretics.

September 5, 2012 at 8:53 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Joepulitzer,

The vast majority of Catholics don't molest children. Sounds like you're a moron.

September 5, 2012 at 9:21 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

Jp, it doesn't take a super intelligence to see that the Bible is not a literal historical account. It is a rendering of a primitive peoples' simplistic concept of who they thought God to be. Just a modicum of critical thinking skills and common sense will reveal to anyone that the reason there are so many historical inaccuracies and scientific impossibilities in the Bible is because those things never really happened. They are just made-up stories. So atheists/agnostics like us do have a very hard time understanding why so many people cling to a belief in a literal God and literal stories that are obviously no more real than Santa Claus or Grimm's fairy tales.

I won't say that anyone who believes such nonsense is a "moron" (your word), but it is obvious that your fear of going to a "hopeless grave" is what clouds your thinking and prevents you from seeing the truth. Christians and other monotheistic religionists have a compelling need to live forever and they are willing to embrace childish, nonsensical beliefs in order to give them a hope of immortality.

September 5, 2012 at 9:22 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

It's Time for Another Look at The Bible

Just when you thought the Bible couldn't be any crazier with that talking serpent, burning bush, and walking on water shenanigans, the Holy Hijinks continue with —

How to Tell Your if Your Wife is Unfaithful.

Just follow the directions below and you'll be on your way to the Intelligent Design Scientific way to prove she's been spreading more than the word of Jehovah.

Follow along in your Bible (it's underneath the fifth of Jack Daniels and Cosmo magazines, next to the bottles of Valium and Oxy).

"Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him . . . Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest . . . And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water . . .And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people." Numbers 5:12-27

There's no need for private investigators, reading her email, or checking her underwear drawer for fancy undies. Take the little lady on down to Abba's House of Worship and Fried Chicken and let the local witch doctor do the deed. He's standing by to spread damnation at the drop of a shekel.

Either she'll be pure and walking away, or she'll be as bloated as a tick on a hound while her leg stinks of gangrene. Pay the Holy Honcho with a coupon for a free buffet at the local feeding trough (holy water or sweet tea not included). If she's innocent take the wife home for her daily beating or if guilty out to the parking lot are for stoning (St. Paul's Rocks of Ages stones available at the coffee house inside the sanctuary, for a love offering of ten dollars, cash only).

There you have it. So read the Bible. It's more fun than Noah getting drunk and naked after a boat ride.

September 5, 2012 at 9:32 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

Keep the posts coming, Easy, they're my best weapon.

September 5, 2012 at 9:45 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

joepulitzer seems like a happy and loving christian, doesn't he? It's great that Bubba Ray Jesus (no kin to Billy Bob Jesus of East Ridge) has filled his heart with joy. What a testament to Gawd's redeeming love!

September 5, 2012 at 9:54 a.m.
joepulitzer said...

Darwin, I bet you two boys are pro same-sex marriage. Right?

September 5, 2012 at 10:05 a.m.
Reayne said...

Did I read that correctly? Did Orr SERIOUSLY try to use an Abraham Lincoln quote about the internet?

September 5, 2012 at 10:07 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Reayne,

It takes some people longer than others to detect puns, intellectual jokes, multi-meaning punch lines, etc. It does happen to most people, i believe, to have to think, and then, think again, before they get the humor. But, CONGRATULATIONS Reayne! You Got It! The Holy Bible Says, Proverbs 17:22

"A merry heart doeth good like a medicine: but a broken spirit drieth the bones."

I truly hope i helped provide that 'medicine' that did You good today!

Ken ORR

September 5, 2012 at 10:38 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Conclusion:

Atheists are such a tiny 'fringe' group of individuals that some people (not me) call them 'minority Weirdos'. Agnostics, not quite as tiny of a minority as atheists, can 'almost' be seen on the proverbial radar screen. If both of these tiny minorities can be labeled as 'abnormals', it certainly would not be something of which i would agree. There are many groups who fly their 'Freak Flags' (I certainly am NOT calling atheists Freaks of society), yet, such a pitifully tiny minority group of which the likes of Madalyn Murray O'Hair , her son Jon, and granddaughter Robin may have belonged, causes one to wonder if they have no sense of that which science has not yet discovered!

........http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O'Hair.........

Ken ORR

September 5, 2012 at 10:52 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Still waiting for evidence of your claims, Mr. Orr. I see that your Jesus didn't answer my prayers. You're still telling lies.

As to the Abe Lincoln quote, the first time he used it was for real!

Mr. Orr is a poor old deluded fellow. He's an example of what the Tea Party has become in Hamilton County. While they hate big government, they love big religion (as long as it's their particular brand of whacked-out Christianity).

But I love Mr. Orr's postings. He's drives thinking people away from a literal belief in God and the Bible by his continued rantings.

Just look at him as Chattanooga's version of a revivalist street preacher crossed with Fred Phelps and the Mad Hatter.

September 5, 2012 at 11:06 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"Atheists are such a tiny 'fringe' group of individuals that some people (not me) call them 'minority Weirdos'."

About 4% in the United States. Over 12 million people.

"Agnostics, not quite as tiny of a minority as atheists, can 'almost' be seen on the proverbial radar screen."

They are included in that 4%. About 16 % have no religion.

"If both of these tiny minorities can be labeled as 'abnormals', it certainly would not be something of which i would agree."

Should we label African-Americans, Asias, Latinos, etc. "abnormals" as well? They are minorities. You're an idiot and a bigot.

"causes one to wonder if they have no sense of that which science has not yet discovered!"

Science will never discover your fake god.

September 5, 2012 at 11:44 a.m.
Easy123 said...

JoePulitzer,

Keep the posts coming, they're good for a laugh.

September 5, 2012 at 11:46 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

joepulitzer said...

"Darwin, I bet you two boys are pro same-sex marriage. Right?"

I don't care who marries who. It's none of my business or yours. The state has no business getting involved either. At a 50% divorce rate for straights they can't claim how successful it's been for them.

If 2,3 or 10 people want to get married, I don't care. Why do you get your panties in a wad about it? No one is asking to marry you.

September 5, 2012 at 11:56 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Yep, I think it was daytonsdarwin who told me about that ole' Abe utilizing/evaluating/criticizing the internet. If it was daytonsdarwin, then, I'm due an apology! Abraham Lincoln didn't even buy a computer when sent the advertisement from Bill Gates (so i've heard, but, don't know if it's true). kwo

September 5, 2012 at 11:57 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Time for your lithium Mr. Orr, before you start seeing Satan flying around your padded cell again. Mental institutions are full of the religiously deranged so I'm sure you've met Jesus, Allah, and the Virgin Mary on your wing. Good news, though! They're bringing in the Holy Ghost tonight wearing a straight jacket and he/she/it has asked to be your roomie.

Still can't produce evidence of your claims about credentials, copyrights, and homosexual jokes?

September 5, 2012 at 12:11 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

joepulitzer,

Logic demonstrates that individuals who do not stand against certain behaviors obviously support those named behaviors. kwo

September 5, 2012 at 12:31 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"Logic demonstrates that individuals who do not stand against certain behaviors obviously support those named behaviors"

Logic does not demonstrate that. You have just cited an informal fallacy. It's called "false dilemma".

You're really bad at logic. And reason, truth, evidence, etc.

September 5, 2012 at 12:41 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Logic dictates that Mr. Orr hasn't a clue as evidenced by his babble, lies, and fallacies.

But give him credit for this—he does provide wonderful comic relief through his divinely inspired rantings. Who knew that when Jehovah wasn't out torturing and killing to show His great love for humanity, He'd still have time to make Mr. Orr the punch line?

And you thought Gawd was just an old sourpuss!

September 5, 2012 at 12:45 p.m.
ebenji87 said...

Mr. Orr, I think you need to find some better hobbies to spend your time on. I frequent this site and it seems like there are few pages without your ridiculous rants repeated incessantly. You are not helping anyone by this, in fact, I would think you are more of a hindrance.

Your messages are always the same nonsense, almost like you are just copy and pasting this mess again and again. I'm sure you are well aware of the definition of insane, aren't you? Doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different outcome. Get psychological help NOW, sir.

September 5, 2012 at 1:27 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

ebenji87,

If You so desire, do a word study. That word being 'epiphany'. Sometimes folks just don't get it until enough illumination is transferred.

Cognitive Theory postulates Spaced Repetition is a learning technique. This incorporates increasing intervals of time between subsequent review of previously learned material in order to exploit the psychological spacing effect. Cite: From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, read, ebenji87, and, try to learn (No pun intended!). I will break this down so that even i could understand it. The limbic system has much to do with emotions. The pineal gland, amygdala, thalamus, hypothalamus, and more, interplay/interface within the reticular formation. (These words are mostly from my 11th grade teachings, so, check me out for accuracy +(:>) One big reason marijuana consumers lack learning/memory ability is the effect that cannabis has on the reticular formation. Anyway, a huge component of learning is emotion. i rarely copy and past except when, as in utilizing Holy Scripture, i know the new reader needs the exact/precise information. Usually, even then, i paraphrase myself! Moral teachings are often highly emotional. But, i don't want to try to show You how much i know...i want to show You how much i care. Because i do, indeed, care about others, i utilize effective Cognitive Principles. O.K.?, kwo

September 5, 2012 at 8:01 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Because i do, indeed, care about others, i utilize effective Cognitive Principles. O.K.?

Not effective at all, Ken Orr. Sorry to burst your bubble, but fundies don't understand the brain because they don't accept evolution at all.

September 5, 2012 at 10:04 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Uh Oh! Here we go...evolution. Well, even with our sun burning out, most pseudo-evolutionists will not accept that the law of atrophy destroys the very contrived foundation of evolutionary theory. The 'second law of thermodynamics' objection is lame. Back to the Higgs Boson (God Particle). Well, even if that elementary particle was located/discovered, it only leads us back to the presumption that something...came from nothing, or at least that nobody knows from where the first cause originated, or, how it came into being. Good to see You lkeithlu. I was afraid Your computer had broken, or, something. kwo

September 6, 2012 at 12:50 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"most pseudo-evolutionists will not accept that the law of atrophy destroys the very contrived foundation of evolutionary theory."

It's "entropy", Mr. Physicist. And it doesn't destroy the theory of evolution at all. Our world and life is not a closed system. The Sun is the energy source that keeps our world running. Do you deny the existence of the sun? And by the way, the Sun will likely enter the red giant phase in around 5 billion years.

"The 'second law of thermodynamics' objection is lame."

Evolution doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

"it only leads us back to the presumption that something...came from nothing, or at least that nobody knows from where the first cause originated, or, how it came into being."

And it will never lead anyone to a deity.

Your denial of evolution is proof enough of your ignorance. Do you deny gravity as well? Hubble's Law of Cosmic Expansion? How about Einstein's Theory of General Relativity?

You are a fool. Denying evolution is equivalent to denying gravity or electromagnetism. Evolution isn't up for debate. It's a fact.

So much for those physics credentials you claimed to have!

September 6, 2012 at 1:28 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Poor deluded Mr. Orr. He's an excellent example of why religion has no place in science, and Calvinist dogma has no basis in reality.

When you start from the premise that God and the Bible are literal and historical facts and not a myth read as metaphor, you have Mr. Orr as the result.

Fundamentalists trying to defend superstition, ignorance, bigotry, and Biblical immorality as goodness is similar to all big lies of religious mass movements. They ask you to abandon reason, science, and reality.

The universe is overflowing with wonder and awe and they reduce that magnificence to dogmas of original sin, undeserved guilt, and miscreants in the form of supernatural deities.

It's not too late for you Mr. Orr. Renounce your superstitious, blind, and ignorant beliefs and come into the fold of a universe filled with more sublime beauty than fanciful pearly gates and streets paved with gold.

Heaven is here now, on this earth, at this place. Come to reason and abandon your false hopes and imaginary schizophrenic supermen.

Let us rise and turn to the Book of Thoreau and sing, "Heaven is under our feet as well as over our heads."

Live life today; not in an imaginary hereafter. Won't you repent?

September 6, 2012 at 8:30 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Easy123,

No, No, No! When I say entropy, then, I mean entropy...When I say atrophy, then, I mean atrophy. If You can't tie the two concepts in with one another (relating to) then, I understand that You have that limitation. I have many limitations also. Yet, my use of fewer words forces people to think for themselves. I have a friend who broke it down like this (the following), and, well, has much more patience than I do. So, utilizing mercy for You, read this:\

The first law of thermodynamics informs us that energy can be neither created nor destroyed and that energy or matter cannot be naturally created from nothing. It may be changed from one form to another, but never created or destroyed. Yet, the evolutionary premise demands the initial creation of matter and energy from nothing.
The second law of thermodynamics, stated quite simply, is that spontaneity causes degradation — the tendency to run down. In other words, the universe runs just one way: it is like a great watch that is running down, not evolving to a higher state. The second law of thermodynamics describes a universal law of decay and disintegration over time. This is the diametric opposite of the evolutionary concept. Material things are not eternal. Nothing stays as fresh as the day one buys it; material items rot, rust, and ultimately return to dust. Everything ages and wears out. The effects of the second law of thermodynamics are all around us, touching everything in the universe. This second law of thermodynamics is, in fact, one of the major reasons many evolutionists have dropped their theory in favor of Creationism. The logic is inescapable!

September 6, 2012 at 2:55 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Oh, and Easy123, do attempt creating some original thinking. Your brain will continue to atrophy if You continue to just lift everything from other people's original thoughts. kwo

Just a word to the wise...hopefully that would be You, Easy! +(:>

September 6, 2012 at 3:02 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Orr wrote: ". . .many evolutionists have dropped their theory in favor of Creationism."

Who? What famous evolutionists, respected in the scientific world, have done so?

orr wrote: "Your brain will continue to atrophy if You continue to just lift everything from other people's original thoughts."

This from someone who's only source is the Bible and creationism? How funny. Even your Tea Party clan don't defend you as you're an embarrassment by association to them.

Mr. Orr's complete lack of knowledge of science is amazing. Mr. Orr lives in his self-created dark ages.

Oh, we're still waiting for you to present evidence of your claims of copyright, credentials, and your homosexual joke as you said you would. Or has your evidence mysteriously evaporated again?

September 6, 2012 at 3:34 p.m.
dao1980 said...

ORRMEANSLIGH, your lack of understanding regarding the sciences you abuse is beyond belief.

If you're really interested in genetics, please study genetics.

If you're really interested in physics, please study physics.

If you're really interested in cosmology, please study cosmology.

If you're really interested in correct answers, please be ready to invest the time and energy in actually understanding the world around you.

Otherwise you sound like an un-educated twit, regurgitating non-science under the false assumption that it can be passed of as science.

Your prognostications are too full of inaccuracies for me to touch on them all within the next few sentences. But here are a few quickies.

-

Matter is created constantly in the universe from you would call nothing (due to your lack of education) - but is actually "something" that you refuse to understand. Please study accretion, as well as the coalescing of molecules into gasses, into solids, into other heavenly bodies, and gravity on all scales and in all observable instances.

-

Laws of thermodynamics are just that, and are in no way a keystone that you can use to trap all other sciences into your blind god-bubble.

-

The universe seems to be accelerating in its expansion.

-

If our species is "decaying", then why are we getting taller with every generation? (Easily a childs observation - one of many)

-

After the man made materials that you refer to (steel, iron) rust and rot due to oxidization, they then return to the soil from which we mined the ore to produce them in the first place.

-

Your ridiculous claim of "many evolutionists have dropped their theory in favor of Creationism" is true fundy junk at it's best, and an outright lie in any other light.

I don't know why I've responded to your crap, I keep telling myself that I'll not do it again.

September 6, 2012 at 3:49 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

dao1980 wrote: "I don't know why I've responded to your crap, I keep telling myself that I'll not do it again."

I know why, probably for the same reason I do. To encourage free minds, particularly young minds, to rail against dark age superstitions, religious ignorance, religious bigotry, and hope that continued light on the failed Biblical fairy-tales can be excised from science classrooms and government offices.

To open minds, not close them. To show organized religion as anathema to progress, and to offer liberation to those who desire to come forth from the 2000 year-old mental disease of immoral and murderous imaginary deities and the cruel results of those religious true believer's escapades.

With the internet and the ability to quickly research the Bible, gods, and other man-made religious creations, the slow but steady collapse of a literal God and Bible is occurring. As science reveals creationism as magical thinking and gods of every type as creations of ignorance and the power hungry, church attendance is steadily falling, particularly from fundamentalist churches.

The old Calvinist methods are viewed as neanderthal, guilt-ridden viewpoints of religious fanatics, whose dogmas are life-condemning, not life affirming. They're the orthodox, dogmatic hate mongers of humanity who justify unspeakable barbarities in the name of a monster god, and prey on children with the hate-filled message of original sin, hell, and damnation.

That's my reason for opposing Orr and his kind. Freedom is not found in serving masters, particularly imaginary and anthropomorphic symbols of religious despotism.

There's more honesty and life in a two-year-old's smile and questions than all the Bibles and gods created by man.

September 6, 2012 at 4:32 p.m.
dao1980 said...

Good stuff daytonsdarwin. I'm reminded of a recent clip from our old buddy Bill Nye.

September 6, 2012 at 4:45 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"When I say atrophy, then, I mean atrophy."

There is no "law of atrophy". You are ignorant.

"Yet, the evolutionary premise demands the initial creation of matter and energy from nothing."

No, evolution does not have anything to say about the origin of life. Evolution is the change in populations over time. Again, evolution has nothing to say about how life originated. You are ignorant.

"In other words, the universe runs just one way: it is like a great watch that is running down, not evolving to a higher state."

Wrong again. Our Universe is not a closed system. The Sun supplies energy to our earth. The second law of thermodynamics only applies to CLOSED systems. Organisms do not "evolve to a higher state". You are ignorant.

"The second law of thermodynamics describes a universal law of decay and disintegration over time."

No, the second law of thermodynamics only applies to CLOSED systems. Our earth is not a closed system because of the existence of the Sun. You are ignorant.

"This is the diametric opposite of the evolutionary concept."

Wrong. You are ignorant.

"Material things are not eternal. Nothing stays as fresh as the day one buys it; material items rot, rust, and ultimately return to dust."

Evolution has nothing to say about "material things". Evolution is the change in populations (organisms) over time. You are ignorant.

"The effects of the second law of thermodynamics are all around us, touching everything in the universe.

Wrong. The Sun keeps energy supplied to all living organisms. You are ignorant.

"This second law of thermodynamics is, in fact, one of the major reasons many evolutionists have dropped their theory in favor of Creationism."

I bet you can't name 3 people that have done so based on the second law of thermodynamics.

"The logic is inescapable!"

The logical fallacies you use are easily escapable. You are completely ignorant to science. You know nothing about evolution or physics.

How is it that one individual can be so stupid? Orr, you are the most ignorant human being I have ever come across.

September 6, 2012 at 5:04 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"Your brain will continue to atrophy if You continue to just lift everything from other people's original thoughts."

I haven't lifted any original thoughts. However, you have, remember:

"I have a friend who broke it down like this (the following)"

Word to the stupid: Take your own advice. Your projections won't fly. I'm smarter than you.

September 6, 2012 at 5:07 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Hey Easy, Observe and Learn...

  1. A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observation that describes some aspect of the world. A scientific law always applies under the same conditions, and implies that there is a causal relationship involving its elements.

Easy, if You just stay with me, You may begin to appreciate some of the same facts which i appreciate. kwo

  1. A scientific law refers to broad and general regularities in the behavior of matter and/or energy which occur over wide ranges of space and time and which have been observed so many times that future changes to how we explain these regularities are no longer given much consideration.

This give You and me the power/authority when to decide to label (lawfully, of course) phenomena a 'law, or, not'. Get confidence with understanding! kwo

September 6, 2012 at 5:51 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Bill Nye The Science Guy, i believe, has the identical reason as most atheists, and, agnostics have in denying Divine Creation. Namely, that he also may not be able to attain to the moral laws of Jesus Christ which... do not allow one to live like the lower animals.

September 6, 2012 at 5:59 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Orr, You have no credibility in science or anything else. When you were caught in three boldface lies, you folded like a broken card-table.

You are, however, a model example of why creationism and science are not compatible, why religion has no place in the classroom, and why science triumphs over ignorance and superstition.

September 6, 2012 at 6:02 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

dao1980,

And, You know, Bill Nye may have been so fearful of THE TRUTH that he wouldn't even enter the Creation Museum. He knew that once he was faced with the TRUTH, then, he would have to give up all the publicity he needed to make a living (Much like the FAKE Televangelists).

http://www.facebook.com/notes/creation-museum/look-who-drove-by-today/10150173506249832

Oh well!

September 6, 2012 at 6:35 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"A scientific law is a statement based on repeated experimental observation that describes some aspect of the world. A scientific law always applies under the same conditions, and implies that there is a causal relationship involving its elements."

You stole this from Wikipedia. Who am I staying with? You or Wikipedia? "Your brain will continue to atrophy if You continue to just lift everything from other people's original thoughts."

"A scientific law refers to broad and general regularities in the behavior of matter and/or energy which occur over wide ranges of space and time and which have been observed so many times that future changes to how we explain these regularities are no longer given much consideration."

You stole this too. Who am I following? You or about.com? "Your brain will continue to atrophy if You continue to just lift everything from other people's original thoughts."

http://atheism.about.com/od/sciencereligion/a/ScientificLaws.htm

"This give You and me the power/authority when to decide to label (lawfully, of course) phenomena a 'law, or, not'."

No, it doesn't. You don't get to decide whether something is a law or not. There is no "law of atrophy". You are ignorant.

September 6, 2012 at 6:40 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"Namely, that he also may not be able to attain to the moral laws of Jesus Christ which... do not allow one to live like the lower animals."

People do not need holy books to have morals. Atheists do not live like lower animals. You're ignorant.

"Bill Nye may have been so fearful of THE TRUTH that he wouldn't even enter the Creation Museum."

Real scientists don't have any reason to visit "the Creation Museum".

"He knew that once he was faced with the TRUTH, then, he would have to give up all the publicity he needed to make a living"

Pseudo-science, bunk science, and myth are not truth. Despite your misguided, unlettered efforts, they never will be.

http://ncse.com/news/2007/05/reactions-to-creation-museum-001073

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/08/10/the-creation-museum-1/

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/editorials/2007/05/27/create.ART_ART_05-27-07_G4_OQ6Q9L4.html

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jiVuN2BMp6tmuGBGOedALIY4_FaA

**You double-down on ignorance. You spew it with every post. You are a complete and utter moron. You are ignorant of science, reason, logic, truth, common sense, and factual evidence.""

September 6, 2012 at 6:49 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Conclusion:

O.K. daytonsdarwin, question...did You not understand the information I provided regarding copyrighted phrases being granted when embedded by authors within their books? If O.K., we'll start with that proof for now. Ask me questions about what You do not understand regarding these copyrighted phrases. I genuinely want You to have the knowledge. Now, before You begin Your questions to me...re-read the following: kwo

I can understand that You (most folks) don't understand. Well, there are at least two forms of copyright protection. 1... The first form 'may' not hold up in court as far as regards lawsuits, etc.. 2... The other form absolutely holds up in court for the purpose of lawsuit. A Judge may actually rule in favor of the first mentioned method.

I can't take the time now, but, #1 only requires a date stamp and declaration that You have copyrighted Your particular work...for example, one of my books. kwo

"A little learning is a dangerous thing!" (This is for me, You, all of us, I'm not directing this toward just You.

daytonsdarwin, I'll begin with this: "I have not lied about anything." kwo

FYI-"I write Illustrated Children's Books" I know that a phrase

can, indeed, be copyrighted! Also, I would prevail in a court of

law. ...State of Georgia v. Harrison Co., 548 F. Supp. 110 (N.D.

Ga 1982).... Like I tried to tell JustOneWoman, or,

HappyWithNewBulbs..."This is no longer 'Business as Usual',

there's a new kid on the block, get ready for the change."

1...If an author has created a uniquely suggestive phrase, then the courts will protect it under copyright. But if an author's literary phrase is merely a trivial variation on that which already belongs to the public, copyright will not extend... Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp. 45 F.2d 119, 122 (2d Cir.) (Decision by J. Learned Hand)

Copyright disputes about short phrases end up clustering into three categories:

2...Ken's>>a phrase is appropriated to sell a service or product;>an author seeks to protect a singular literary phrase.<<Mine

There exists a first step in legalizing copyrighting, I have taken that step. Also, I have a new Children's Book, set in Africa, that has brought adults to loving tears. I will be willing to get You a free Kindle copy. (The Illustrator in Columbus, GA has it right now). The book is edited to meet Amazon.Com Kindle requirements, and, other E-book readers.

Ken ORR

September 6, 2012 at 6:49 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

Your "book" isn't published. Copyright laws do not apply. But you haven't even gotten a legal copyright. Therefore, you're talking out of your ass.

Again, your ignorance is palpable.

September 6, 2012 at 6:53 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Busted again, Orr. You said weeks ago it was already copyrighted. Weasel time again.

How about your physics credentials you promised weeks ago?

How about the evidence of the comedian you said told a homosexual joke?

You lies are only exceeded by your ignorance.

September 6, 2012 at 7:14 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Please listen/read, whatever, once again:

Your book (phrase) does not have to be published!!!!!!! When it is WRITTEN, a DECLARATION that it is a copyrighted work, along with a DATE STAMP, makes it a legal copyright that may, or, may not hold up in a court of law BEFORE it is submitted to the United States Copyright Office. "Whew" I am getting tired of this one". kwo

Following is a comment I wrote a few days, (or, whatever) ago:

"I can understand that You (most folks) don't understand. Well, there are at least two forms of copyright protection. 1... The first form 'may' not hold up in court as far as regards lawsuits, etc.. 2... The other form absolutely holds up in court for the purpose of lawsuit. A Judge may actually rule in favor of the first mentioned method [#1].

I can't take the time now, but, #1 only requires a date stamp and declaration that You, officially, have copyrighted Your particular work...for example, one of my books. kwo

Y'all are worth it, or, I wouldn't even take the time. Unlike dao1980, who wants to 'throw up his hands', walk away, and, give up on me. I have told dao1980, genuinely, that i value opportunities to learn through critical thinking. You don't have to hate someone to debate/disagree with meaningful discourse. I believe that the Times Free Press has, in part, provided an integral social network here, as long as readers adhere to their rules. Is there anything wrong with that? kwo

September 6, 2012 at 9:33 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

You cannot copyright a phrase. You can trademark it. But you haven't done that.

I don't think anyone believes that you wrote a children's book anyway. So no one believes your copyright.

Would you like to try again?

September 6, 2012 at 9:45 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

1...If an author has created a uniquely suggestive phrase, then the courts will protect it under copyright. But if an author's literary phrase is merely a trivial variation on that which already belongs to the public, copyright will not extend... Nichols v. Universal Pictures Corp. 45 F.2d 119, 122 (2d Cir.) (Decision by J. Learned Hand)

September 6, 2012 at 9:50 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

You cannot copyright a phrase. Being protected under copyright is not the same.

And I know for a fact that you are not capable of creating a "uniquely suggestive phrase".

Would you like to try one more time?

September 6, 2012 at 9:52 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Vast difference between a book and a phrase and your knowledge of intellectual property rights is sorely lacking. Regardless, you said it was legally copyrighted weeks ago. That was not true.

But while you're explaining, explain the credentials you have in physics as you said you would weeks ago.

Explain the joke you repeated twice and the story you repeated twice about a comedian saying , "Let's go to the hospice and look at the homosexuals." You told that story twice, you repeated the quote twice. You said you heard a comedian make that joke. I called BS on that. Yet you cannot give any evidence for that statement as to who, when or where it was said. Go ahead Orr, give your proof. It will be easy to verify.

But you can't because it was never said. You told one lie after another time and time again claiming evidence, yet you produce nothing but excuses.

So either produce your evidence or admit you've lied. It's one or the other. Either you have the proof you said you have or you're a liar.

So make me out the one in error and I'll admit I was wrong. The only evidence I see from you is your wild-eyed, fanatical religious bigotry — no proof of those science credentials you've claimed and no proof that the homosexual remark was anything but a deliberate fabrication on your part.

You can't present evidence Mr. Orr, because you're a liar and dishonest. As to your critical thinking ability, you have none. You're as intellectually and religiously fraudulent as the faith healers you condemn.

So put up your evidence, Mr. Orr, or admit you're a liar. We're all waiting Mr. Orr.

September 6, 2012 at 10:01 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Easy123, I will agree to disagree with You,(Copyright) but I 'absolutely' disagree with You. And You certainly wouldn't want to ever debate that with the person who sent my book to the Illustrator. Peace. You're a good person, no harm intended.

daytonsdarwin, no, i certainly am not lying. The joke, though, is loathsome, let it die, yes, let it die in peace. You have brought me many healthy laughs, laughs which renewed my spirit when i was in low spirits. For this one, please, it should be buried, or better yet cremated. Let it go to the domain and chambers of the dead. kwo

You will continue to weary me until i have disclosed those pesky ole' quantum/astro/mechanics physics. So, alas, here You are:

Early in the eighties i began drinking deeply of the available knowledge regarding the various disciplines of physics. I have taken many (and 'many' again) self help courses, actually closing down libraries, in the pursuit of perfection in the learning of these disciplines. I win debates as a natural matter of course when I am engaged with that particular challenge. I do have a couple of Grad courses on my official transcript, but, they are in education.

daytonsdarwin, must You continue to wear someone down until You get an answer? Especially someone who considers You a Friend? Even the person who might know me from Dayton's Atheistic Organization, he goes by 1980, or, something like that, even that person is rather persistent, but, valuable due to the true, warm humanity that manifests itself. kwo

September 7, 2012 at 5:53 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

O.K. Easy, we both seem to forget sometimes, or, just choose to not cite/reference our WikiPedias, etc. kwo

September 7, 2012 at 6:04 p.m.
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