published Monday, September 24th, 2012

Idea that Jesus had wife 'rubbish' and other letters to the editor

Idea that Jesus had wife 'rubbish'

For what it's worth, I'd like to comment on an article in the Sept. 19, Chattanooga Times Free Press: "A faded piece of papyrus refers to Jesus' wife"?

I do not claim to be a Bible scholar. I can tell you that I am 70 years old, I've lived in Chattanooga all my life. I've read the King James Bible through several times. I have found no reference to this rubbish.

I do recall when I was a child of 11 years old. I heard a similar story of this paper back then. The article was almost the same references.

LOU ANN LAWSON


Let's re-examine Romney's remark

The persistent abuse of Romney's "47 percent" remark is clear indication of two things: Democrats' underhandedness and journalistic complicity.

Let's take a look. Ignore the fact that the video was obtained illegally and look at the context of the remark.

Pretend you are one of the attendees who put $50,000 in the collection jar to help you decide who to fund in the presidential race. You want to evaluate his strategy, if any.

Now pretend you are Romney and you want to make the strongest appeal you can. How do you make them feel needed and important? Among other things, you say that 47 percent of voters won't send you a dime, so the burden of financing a Republican candidate falls on them. Note that Romney says he won't be financially supported by 47 percent, not that they are unimportant citizens but that they are not part of his financial support group. Probably overstated, but it's a sales pitch to a select group for a specific purpose, not a governing principle.

What Democrats have done is turn it completely around and inside out, and most media are feeding it to a population eager to believe without thinking. Let's all be smarter than that.

CLIF TINKHAM


School relocation worth the money

In reading the Sept. 20 article, "School project moves forward," I was astonished to find out that the East Brainerd Elementary School was relocating to a different site. In many ways, I am glad that the school project for the new relocation is under way.

Many times I have traveled that road where the school is located and during the busy hours of 3-6 p.m., that street is traffic-filled. Many children are being picked up by parents or school buses, which causes a huge traffic problem.

Another reason why I agree with Gary Waters, assistant superintendent for auxiliary services, in going forward with this project is because that street can be very dangerous for the children attending the school. I have witnessed cars racing down the street not paying attention to the speed limit.

I understand that the project will require a substantial amount of money, but I think the school, the students, and the school superintendent are ready for a new change.

KAMESHA WEEKES


Safety of clinical trials not certain

I commend the paper on the Sept. 11 article covering the availability and importance of clinical research trials in Chattanooga. However, as a clinical researcher with 16 years of experience, I am concerned about certain statements and facts in the article.

The statement that "Chattanooga doctors involved in research said clinical trials allow them to offer safe and tested technology to patients..." is a misrepresentation of fact. This error also appears in this sentence: "Patients should remember that clinical trials have been tested extensively before they are tested on patients, Bhatka said, which means the treatment is safe."

In fact, manufacturers are required only to prove product safety in animal studies before they are tested in healthy human volunteers. The large majority of clinical trials are conducted specifically to determine if an investigational medical device or drug is safe.

It is inappropriate for any absolute claims of safety to be made by physicians or companies throughout the testing of a new product. That is a decision made only by the FDA when approving the product for marketing in the U.S. Clinical Trial volunteers deserve correct information when considering participation in this important research.

KAREN L. GILBERT


Consider contrast in candidates

As American citizens, we all have a responsibility. That includes finding out the truth about candidates, the important truths, like how they behave as fellow citizens.

We've seen what Obama will do. He stopped a menacing depression in its tracks, rescued GM, killed Bin Ladin, and extended health care. He did all of this in the face of withering and snide opposition determined to force failure on the president of the United States. Obama has not brought all the change some voters hoped for, but he's worked hard, improved the mess left by Bush. And, Obama's investments are here, in the U.S.A.

Let's consider what Romney will do. What he's done is get rich by stripping American companies of assets, firing workers, and sending money out of the U.S. Romney flip-flops, and won't release tax returns for his income during the Bush years. Romney's invested in the Cayman Islands and Swiss bank accounts.

The stark contrast leaves no doubt about which man we can trust. As a responsible, taxpaying American citizens, we're voting to re-elect President Obama.

CHARLES AND KATHERINE ZAMMIT, Sewanee, Tenn.


Romney clueless on middle class

Are you poor or middle class? What do you earn in a year? Do you consider yourself middle class or poor?

According to Mitt Romney middle class Americans earn $200,000 to $250,000 per year. I guess by Mitt's reasoning people earning under $200,000 per year are poor.

I say let the rich vote for Mitt and the rest of us poor and middle class vote for Obama.

Mitt is just not in touch with us poor and middle class citizens.

ROBERT PALMER


Sharing the road is two-way street

It is good to have bicycles share our roads. Now they need to share the responsibilities.

In order for everyone's safety they should have all the safety features and other equipment that lets other motorists know what they intend to do. First, they need a headlight, taillight, turn signals and a stop light. Next, they need to be licensed, registered, taxed, and have insurance to cover the damage and wrecks they cause. The also need medical coverage.

Now we are getting somewhere and we will all be much safer.

JERRY PLACE, Rossville, Ga.


All you left leaners could be next

Being an independent voter, I vote for the man/woman, not what pleases a political party. In the past I vote for Truman, Kennedy, Reagan and Bush, whomever I thought would do the best job for the country.

This time around I feel this administration is doing more harm to our country than any other administration in my lifetime. Obama's socialist policies and actions or lack of action scare the heck out of me. I am leaning pretty hard to the right for my vote this time. What I do not understand is all the left leaning media, as they have the most to lose.

Be forewarned all you left leaning editorialists and cartoonists, you may be next.

VINCE PATTERSON, Signal Mountain

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ToHoldNothing said...

Would it really negate Jesus' message if he had a wife? Perhaps the notions of him telling his disciples to basically abandon everyone to follow him could've been an issue, but I honestly don't care one way or another, because even if such a person as Jesus historically existed, it demonstrates nothing of the truth of his claims or the claims of his disciples that he resurrected, etc.

September 24, 2012 at 12:40 a.m.
shen said...

Which Jesus? Like Michael, Aiden, Jacob, Madison, Sophia are common American names for today, there were many with the name Jesus for that time. There's actually an agenda behind saying that (yeah, that one) Jesus had a wife. Supporters of this have already tried to create modern day descedents of Jesus presently living in Europe. There was a story on this issue a few years back, with pictures of today's allege Jesus klan and all living in Britain, I recall.

September 24, 2012 at 2:55 a.m.
ToHoldNothing said...

True, Jesus was essentially equivalent to Josh almost in Romanization and Anglicization.

I've heard legends of Jesus going all the way over to Japan and having descendants there.

And we can't forget the obvious Da Vinci Code reference with Jesus having a son he didn't know about. Maybe he didn't have a wife, he had a lover, which would very much negate his whole adultery is just looking at a woman with lust thing, I imagine. But being married wouldn't be the worst thing, since he did say that a man married and left his parents, which he technically did anyway.

If we were going to specify we'd say Jesus of Nazareth, son of Joseph and all that. Though I recall Nazareth is kind of clouded as to whether it actually existed or not.

September 24, 2012 at 3:57 a.m.
EaTn said...

The issue of whether Jesus had a wife does not affect the fact that He lived and died for our sins and will provide eternal life after death, for those who will accept that Him as their savior.

September 24, 2012 at 6:13 a.m.
Fendrel said...

Maybe it was Jesus' brother that had the wife...

September 24, 2012 at 8:51 a.m.
Fendrel said...

EaTn, of course it does...the sin nature for which Christians insist we need a sacrifice is passed through the male line (not the female), if Jesus were married and had any children they would not inherit a sinful nature and thus would not require Christ's sacrifice to get into heaven ... I think that would throw Christianity a pretty big curve ball don't you?

September 24, 2012 at 9:45 a.m.
EaTn said...

Fendrel....that's assuming Jesus may have had children, which is not claimed in this issue. My point is that God became man in Jesus to shed blood and die for our sins to justify us for eternal salvation. That I don't understand, like many things about God, but I accept it on faith because I can't save my own soul regardless of how good I am.

September 24, 2012 at 10:51 a.m.
Fendrel said...

EaTn, With respect, you have no soul to save, whether you are good or not is entirely dependent on you. You have one life to enjoy and in which to contribute something to your fellow man...this one. No eternity of bliss and no possibility of perpetual suffering.

At least that's what all the evidence points to..everything else is just wishful thinking with no more support than belief in unicorns, leprechauns, nymphs and fairies. While I admit it can be kind of fun to contemplate their existence I certainly wouldn't let belief in them control my actions in this life.

More to the point under discussion, if Jesus was married it then certainly would introduce some interesting possibilites for discussion. Most evangelical Christians would probably agree that the "divine" purpose of marriage is procreation, if Christ was married and did not produce any children, you'd need to reexamine that assumption, and of course, if he did produce children, then you have the whole concept of salvation called into question. Also if he didn't have any children then you have to ask yourself if he and the wife ever engaged in sex...which then raises the issue of birth control (certainly we wouldn't want to argue for an impotent Jesus, would we?)...another thought would be, if Jesus was married...who performed the ceremony? I mean Jesus wasn't exactly in the good graces of either the Jewish priesthood or the Roman government, was he?...just thoughts :)

September 24, 2012 at 1:02 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Christians are constantly grasping at straws in their attempt to prove that JC existed. This latest "discovery" is no more conclusive of his existence than someone finding a fragment of a page from "The Wizard of Oz" 2000 years from now and citing it as proof that the wizard existed. A book of fiction is still book of fiction. Even if Jesus were for real, what difference does it make whether he was married or not? And if he's the myth that he is anyway, there is even less difference.

There is virtually no conclusive historic or scientific evidence outside the Bible that JC existed. Of course, the Bible is all the "proof" Christians need, but then there is little hope for people who are so devoid of reason and intellectual curiosity that they would rather remain in willful ignorance than seek out the truth. His entire story is as preposterous as any of the Old Testament tales and to attempt to make them - and him - literal is evidence of a mind that is terribly and pathetically stunted.

The notion of original sin as a way of explaining human nature is equally stunted and in fact an immoral philosophy that allows us to shirk responsibility for our own actions. To think that there is a God who punishes and rewards with eternal life or eternal suffering based solely on whether we obey his command to believe exactly how he commands us to believe (and Christians call that "free will?” What a joke.) is not only absurd, it's insane.

There is an abundance of well researched literature revealing how an in what ways the story and person of Jesus Christ is merely an amalgam of the pagan myths of the many virgin-born, miracle-working, water-walking, death-defying men-gods very similar to JC and who preceded the advent of Christianity as it has come to be known. If there are any Christians who wish to break out of your small box of ignorance and have your eyes opened, you will find some worthwhile reading there.

September 24, 2012 at 1:22 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Fendrel, you make some very interesting points as to how Christians might have to rethink some of their beliefs if indeed they were to find that Jesus had been married, and especially if he had children. But he actually contradicted himself on a number of occasions anyway, and his followers either don't think about the contradictions or they craftily spin them to mesh with how they want to believe. I'm sure that most Christians would find a way to continue justifying their narrow, hard-core beliefs and remain safely within their bubble.

September 24, 2012 at 1:43 p.m.
EaTn said...

Here's hoping you all soon realize that your intellect and a dollar will buy you a cup of coffee when it comes to saving your soul. Yes, the soul is the essence of a person, without which we would be nothing. Have you ever noticed the difference between the essence of someone who believes in something bigger than themselves and those who don't? Eternity is a long time to ponder why you passed up a golden opportunity to accept the Savior Jesus.

September 24, 2012 at 4:54 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Eatn,

Intellect is all any of us have. Your wishful thinking is exactly that; wishful. You have no sense of eternity. It is just a word. You live, you die. There is no "eternity" for you.

September 24, 2012 at 4:57 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

EaTn, I was a Christian once. I believed just as you believe. But then I grew up. Do not dare to presume that you have somehow reached a loftier, more spiritually evolved level of thinking. Indeed you are stuck in your little box of blind faith and you think that is enough. How sad.

Just because I and others see beyond the silliness of your sky daddy and your mythical savior, that doesn't mean we don't belive in anything bigger than ourselves. Life and the universe, by their very nature, are infinitely more vast than any individual. I just happen to think that we are all a part of that universe and life itself and not detached from it and in need of "salvation" to make us whole. It is truly a sad and limiting way to look at life, seeing people as "saved" or "unsaved," and to be unable to see and appreciate a person's uniqueness, just as they are.

Personally I don't care what anyone believes, spiritually speaking, but when you say that people who believe differently than you believe are lost, unsaved souls, then you lose any and all respect I might have for whatevery fantasy, like God and Jesus, that you choose to believe in.

September 24, 2012 at 5:37 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Well, I didn't use enough screen names on this post earlier, so, I am going to modify it this way:

ToHoldNothing, Rickaroo, Easy123, Fendrel, A blind man said to his teacher, "That mountain you claim is less than 10 feet from us definitely is not there". You know what? He was correct. For him, the mountain was not there. He did not see a thing, he was not able to perceive what was actually there! Could it be proven to exist for the blind man if he had used his other senses to perceive it? Yes, but he refused to use them. His teacher implored the blind student to use his other senses, but, still he refused. The Word of God implores us to study to show ourselves approved unto God. Also, that faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. If ..i refuse to study, and 'hear' the Word of God, then, i cannot 'perceive the mountain', so to speak. Whose fault is that? Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. I please God through my faith. Therefore, I know the first cause of existence. Like non-believers, i do not know from where the first cause came. Nor, do i know how the first cause came about. The non-believer has faith that the first cause is not God. The believer sees God. The non-believer experiences perceived benefits by not believing, and, the believer, by believing. Believers have chosen to use their sense of faith to believe in Jesus Christ. We believe non-believers are like the blind man above who chose to not use one, or more, of his other senses to perceive the obvious.......kwo

Saint Thomas said, "... Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."***And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Then saith He to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold My hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into My side: and be not faithless, but believing".

And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed".

September 24, 2012 at 7:33 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

Strike that. Reverse it. Then you'll be on the right track.

September 24, 2012 at 9:17 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Easy123, Amazing! Perceptive! Thought Provoking~~~~

September 24, 2012 at 9:39 p.m.
ToHoldNothing said...

There is no virtue in religious faith, because it not only expects us to believe with even any remotely compelling, let alone demonstrable evidence, but then it tries to make it a virtue for believers when it has a story where a skeptic is proven wrong and Jesus praises him for his belief when his doubt is proven wrong. But then he insists that believers who don't have such experiences should just believe anyway? How is this encouraging any kind of critical thought that he initially praised Thomas for in some sense?

You know the first cause or you believe it exists? The former would suggest knowledge that would make you equal to that God in being able to be aware and cognizant of its existence in the same way we'd know a fellow human existed. The latter is at least being intellectually honest.

And the blind man example is a self fulfilling prophecy, because you assume there is a 6th spiritual sense to use and that atheists are so stubborn they won't use it, even though we have no reason or evidence to believe such a thing exists. If there is a sixth sense, it is our ability to think and judge with our minds, apart from non sentient entities, like our pets and livestock

And one more thing, if your God is pleased, that seems to imply that God has wants and can experience human emotions by having those needs satisfied even temporarily. But this lowers God to a human level and suggests nothing of its necessity and self sufficiency, let alone its supposed perfection. This one statement that God is pleased by faith undermines a great deal of your theological claims about God's qualities.

September 24, 2012 at 10:52 p.m.
Fendrel said...

EaTn,

Simply put, belief in the supernatural is absurd. I enjoy a good magic show, whether it's Penn and Teller or David Copperfield or just some street performer, but even when I don't understand how they accomplish their magic, I'm not silly enough to actually believe the magic itself is real.

Religion, gods, angels, devils, heaven, hell, souls and spirits are nothing more than our imaginations run wild..they have no evidence to support them and anyone who truly believes that they exist is, at best, just being ridiculous.

September 25, 2012 at 8:36 a.m.
Fendrel said...

EaTn, Let me try this a different way. Every time someone like yourself proposes the existence of a divine being, a flurry of posts appear here asking for evidence of such a claim. None is ever forthcoming. As a result the only basis for your belief is simply that you want to believe it is true, in other words, faith.

What the rest of us find incredulous is not your belief in God, but rather that you are proposing that belief in something which has no evidence to support it, is some how to be preferred over believing in what the evidence out there shows is an accurate representation of the universe that we live in! You would have us forgo the use of our senses, our ability to gather and analyze facts, to exercise reason and logic in favor of make believe and fantasy!

September 25, 2012 at 8:54 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

For those whose faith only allows them believe in what they can presently perceive with their five senses....Please view the following:

You cannot logically prove that all of creation is without intelligent design. Ontologically speaking, God is the greatest great of which there is no greater great. I can prove there is intelligent design, and, that there does exist a greatest great of which there is no greater great.

You find yourselves eliminating all future discoveries within various fields of science, physics, quantum/astro/mechanics/biology, etc.

You believe you know everything that exists between earth and say, a galaxy that is 13 billion light years away.

You refuse to investigate indisputable factors, such as the following:

Biblical prophecy: Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter;no errors. (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.) Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 10 to the 2000th (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!

Archeology: Well documented artifacts such as the Western Wall (19 BC) is an important Jewish religious site located in the Old City of Jerusalem. Just over half the wall, including its 17 courses located below street level, dates from the end of the Second Temple period, being constructed around 19 BC by Herod the Great. The remaining layers were added from the 7th century onwards. The Dead Sea Scrolls are a collection of 972 texts consisting of biblical manuscripts from what is now known as the Hebrew Bible and extra-biblical documents found between 1946 and 1956 on the northwest shore of the Dead Sea. (You know there of hundreds of more examples!)

Anthropology: Since God is a person and He does not have a body, but is spirit, we can safely argue that possessing a body is not the 'sine qua non' of being a person. That is, personhood can exist apart from embodiment. The term anthropology comes from two Greek words, namely, anthropos meaning man and logos meaning word, matter, or thing. We use the word anthropology to refer to the study of man and a Biblical anthropology is the study of man as understood primarily from Scripture. (The Anthropological Case can be easily substantiated). Cite: Study By: Greg Herrick

Historicity: Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Julius, Africanus, Origen, Pliny the Younger, Witnesses. Many, Many, others!

Even Albert Einstein knew that all of 'so-called' science must bow down to the fact of metaphysics and that which is yet unknown, and, yet to be discovered.

Ken ORR Ken ORR

September 25, 2012 at 10:06 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Continuation from above...Even Albert Einstein knew that all of 'so-called' science must bow down to the fact of metaphysics and to that which is yet unknown, and, yet to be discovered. Ken Orr

For those whose faith only allows them believe in what they can presently perceive with their five senses....Please view the following:

A gentleman, Kenneth Samples, said it better than I can: "Christian truth-claims do not violate the basic laws or principles of reason. Christian faith and doctrines (for example, the Trinity and the Incarnation), though they often transcend our finite human comprehension, are not irrational or absurd. Here is an example that we have been discussing: The God Particle (Higgs Boson). Even the existence of event horizons of intergalactic black holes (singularity) had to be postulated, then, proven. Well. "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:..but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,...".......Romans: Chapter 1, Holy Bible.

Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

September 25, 2012 at 10:10 a.m.
Fendrel said...

I'm sorry Ken but your "proofs" and assumptions are wrong on many levels.

Most importantly, not knowing something does not imply that any old fairy tale will suffice to explain it. There are many things which I do not know, but a simply lack of knowledge is not the same thing as evidence for the divine.

Christian "truths" violate the most basic premise of reason since all of them flow from the assumption of divine, extra dimensional being which violates all of the known laws of science.

September 25, 2012 at 11:17 a.m.
Easy123 said...

Ken Orr,

"You cannot logically prove that all of creation is without intelligent design."

That's not how it works. You have to prove it first. You can't prove a negative.

"I can prove there is intelligent design, and, that there does exist a greatest great of which there is no greater great."

Then do it.

"You find yourselves eliminating all future discoveries within various fields of science, physics, quantum/astro/mechanics/biology, etc."

False. We are eliminating the discovery of the undiscoverable/non-existent.

"You believe you know everything that exists between earth and say, a galaxy that is 13 billion light years away"

No.

"2,000 Biblical prophecies"

How do you know they were fulfilled? You are basically saying the Bible is true because prophecies in one part of it were fulfilled in another part. That isn't evidence. You are using the Bible to prove the authenticity of the Bible.

"Archaeology"

What you have presented isn't proof of anything. The Western Wall was part of Solomon's Temple. It doesn't serve as proof of intelligent design.

"Anthropology"

What you have presented here is incoherent babble. It makes no logical sense and does not serve as proof of anything other than your gullibility.

"Historicity"

Most of the ancient historians did not live during the time of Jesus. Those historians heard about "Christus" third and fourth hand many years after Jesus was said to have lived. None of their accounts serve as proof of intelligent design or the historicity of your so-called "messiah".

"Even Albert Einstein knew that all of 'so-called' science must bow down to the fact of metaphysics and that which is yet unknown, and, yet to be discovered."

Not Christian metaphysics. You cannot assume an intelligent designer until it is proven. It would be just as easy to assume that a giant unicorn defecated and the universe formed.

"Christian truth-claims do not violate the basic laws or principles of reason. Christian faith and doctrines (for example, the Trinity and the Incarnation), though they often transcend our finite human comprehension, are not irrational or absurd."

Christian truth claims do violate basic reason. How can any human being know whether something transcends our finite comprehension? You cannot make that claim because by doing so, you are claiming to comprehend things which you just admitted are impossible to comprehend. It's a fallacious argument.

"For those whose faith only allows them believe in what they can presently perceive with their five senses."

All we have are our five senses, jackass.

Present some more so-called "proof". I'd love to shoot it down.

September 25, 2012 at 12:30 p.m.
Fendrel said...

Easy123,

I agree with most of what you said, I know what you are driving at with proof of a negative, however, in certain cases I can prove a negative..for instance I can prove that I have no money in my pocket simply by turning it inside out and letting you examine it.

For Orr, if you want to invoke logic, the let's assume, for the moment, that observation of the universe proves some type of intelligent design...what if I were to tell you that I believe a supernatural designer created everything we see, but that the Christian God is only one of his minions and has been feeding us lies this whole time and claiming for himself the works that another designer created ... let's call it supernatural plagiarism, how would you go about proving me wrong? For any proof that offer, I could claim that your god is just usurping the works and thoughts of another even more powerful god...ultimately the only thing you could fall back on is your "feeling" that yours must be the true one...which, of course, is no proof at all.

September 25, 2012 at 1:03 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Fendrel,

I understand what you're saying. My statement was referring to the problem of induction. One cannot prove, with any level of certainty, that any deity exists.

September 25, 2012 at 1:11 p.m.
Fendrel said...

EaTn, Orr....

What! A group of heathen atheist idolaters waiting with bated breath to read about proofs for God and the religious right, as quiet as the response to prayer uttered from the lips of an innocent child.

Hello? Where is everyone...please give us one, just one solid, logical, empirical proof for the existence of God which will compel our belief. We beg of you, dazzle us with holy brilliance, let God's power be seen and heard in your divinely crafted, Holy Spirit filled, response, vetted against the almighty's own storehouse of his omniscience. We patiently await an answer to our plea. In other words...either put up, or shut up.

:)

September 25, 2012 at 5:22 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

One thing is for certain, I have presented proofs on many, many levels. You choose to ignore the rationality of these proofs. Anyone may choose to do this ad infinitum. Your denials are meaningless, except, as regards Your eternal soul. The final argument is that your faith is in something else, or, non-existent. Either way, as the Bible makes known, even when fire is poured upon certain individuals, still yet, they will ignore plain evidence, and, wisdom. "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools".

Revelation 16th Chapter:

"And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give Him glory.

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."

Ken ORR

September 25, 2012 at 9:38 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Jesus Christ>>>John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life..."

Regarding Idea that Jesus had wife 'rubbish'

The same people who carry this lie regarding His marriage need to answer the following: They imagine they know, which verifies that truly, they do not.

Job 38- "...Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?... answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof...Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail...By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?... Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?...Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it."

September 25, 2012 at 9:47 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Orr,

"One thing is for certain, I have presented proofs on many, many levels."

Another thing is for certain, all of those alleged "proofs" have been debunked and showed to be illegitimate on many, many levels.

"You choose to ignore the rationality of these proofs."

Because they are irrational, fallacious, false, or incoherent.

"Anyone may choose to do this ad infinitum."

And anyone will until you offer legitimate proof of your extraordinary claims.

"Your denials are meaningless, except, as regards Your eternal soul."

The denials are far more meaningful than your so-called "proofs". Your "eternal soul" is a construct of your own mind. It is no more real than ghosts or demons.

"The final argument is that your faith is in something else, or, non-existent."

I have "faith" in nothing. I use reason, logic, and proof. You are the one with faith in the non-existent. You have been asked repeatedly to prove the existence of this deity you believe in. You have made claims that you have the proof. And you have yet to offer a shred of evidence or proof to substantiate your own beliefs. You simply believe because you want to. You beliefs have no basis in reality.

"Either way, as the Bible makes known, even when fire is poured upon certain individuals, still yet, they will ignore plain evidence, and, wisdom. "

There is no fire. You have presented no "plain evidence" to ignore. And you most certainly have not offered any "wisdom" in your mounds of incoherent, Bible-verse laced, jibberish.

"Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools".

You claim have claimed wisdom in various subjects for a very long time now but, much like your so-called "proofs", you always seem to come up exceedingly short. Truly, you are the only fool here. And I have no doubts that you will continue to be just that for a long time to come.

September 25, 2012 at 10:29 p.m.
jesse said...

So far i have seen NO proof that God exists BUT i also have seen no proof that He doesn't!Having never died yet i have no idea what happens or where you go,if anywhere when you check out!some times i think that we are all some imaginary figment of some clowns dream,at other times i am quite sure that i am the only real person on earth and every body else is some kinda quantum wave that vanishes as soon as i quit lookin at it! The best thing to come out of religion is it gives us a reason to argue,fight and kill each other over! If there was no religion it would be so quiet and peacfull we would all go insane from boredom!!LOL(btw: i look at political ideology's as a religion folks use to keep from dealing w/reality!

September 26, 2012 at 4:27 p.m.
Easy123 said...

jesse,

"i also have seen no proof that He doesn't!"

Here is your proof:

"So far i have seen NO proof that God exists"

September 26, 2012 at 5:52 p.m.
jesse said...

Well easy i guess your just to smart for me to get one on you!

Got all that book learnin and know how to find all them web sites and stuff ,just too much BRAIN POWER for me to fade!

I shudda know after watchin you show all them folks over on Clays page how dumb they are and how you got all them answers!!

Have fun!!

September 26, 2012 at 7:11 p.m.
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