published Monday, August 19th, 2013

Just say a little prayer: Obama's move signals potentially big changes

President Barack Obama closes his eyes as he listens to offerings of prayers at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, Thursday, Feb. 7, 2013. While speaking, the president said he hopes they maintain the morning's bipartisan spirit a little longer.
President Barack Obama closes his eyes as he listens to offerings of prayers at the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington, Thursday, Feb. 7, 2013. While speaking, the president said he hopes they maintain the morning's bipartisan spirit a little longer.
Photo by Associated Press.

The Obama Administration has filed a brief with the U.S. Supreme Court in support of prayer at public meetings.

The amicus brief was filed in the Galloway v. Town of Greece case, one that closely parallels a lawsuit here in Hamilton County and is expected to settle all government prayer cases. In the Greece, N.Y., case, the plaintiffs want prayer halted before public meetings, arguing that prayers there are exclusively Christian and therefore endorse Christianity over other religions. A U.S. Court of Appeals agreed, saying the town’s prayerful openings were unconstitutional. Now the case is up for a final review by the nation’s highest court.

Lawyers for the administration and two groups of lawmakers from the House and Senate, nearly all Republicans, separately filed amicus briefs arguing that councils and commissions should be allowed to open their meetings with a Christian prayer.

This will be a landmark case, and the Obama move — any politics aside — is a big deal because of what it could mean.

The Galloway case tests previous court rulings which held that public prayer at the beginning of a government body’s session is “properly limited” as long as it “is not exploited to proselytize or advance any one, or disparage any other, faith or belief.”

The Obama administration, like the Republicans, argues that “invoking Divine guidance for the day’s deliberations is a tolerable acknowledgement of beliefs widely held among the people of this country. … Whereas … legislative prayers neither proselytize nor denigrate any faith, the inclusion of Christian references alone does not constitute an impermissible advancement or establishment of religion.”

In the preamble of the administration’s brief, U.S. Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr. writes that throughout U.S. history, and dating back to the first session of the Continental Congress in 1774, the United States Congress has appointed chaplains to open each legislative day with a prayer. This remains a required rule in both the House and the Senate.

For all the disparagement in the South of President Obama and his faith, this is not the first time he has bucked more liberal faith concepts.

George W. Bush started cabinet meetings with prayer and encouraged the formation of Bible study groups at the White House, but President Obama went a big step further to embrace public religion by opening many of his public events with prayers that were commissioned and vetted by administration aides.

Those prayers, which kicked off many of the president’s outside-the-beltway rallies, have been written and read by local community members who’ve been selected by the White House.

“If a similar thing had been done by President Bush’s White House, I guarantee you there would have been a lot of people crying foul,” said Bill Wichterman, President Bush’s liaison to religious groups, in a recent U.S. News and World Report online report.

One could argue — any many do — that a city council meeting or a county commission meeting is not like a church service, and it shouldn’t be treated as though it is. On the other hand, somebody needs to guide the people we elect, because they rarely listen to us.

We would argue that prayer — like cooperation and compromise — should be universal and all embracing, even when specified religions sometimes are not. We don’t have to take God or Jesus out of anything. We just need to let Allah and Yahweh and others in.

One more thing, if you are a believer, no one can tell you not to pray. And frankly, no one does. All you have to do is bow your head.

Let religion be inclusive, not separating.

Amen.

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ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Now, please tell me, if someone stated "You can obtain the answer to this math problem utilizing any and all possible available formulas", just what would You think?

What does it take to form a specific chemical substance in chemical bonding? Oh, ah, just any ole' catalyst and combination of atoms will do. Yeah, really! The same atom attractions that form gold also form diamonds...NOT, NO, NOTA! All roads do not lead to God, Jesus Christ, God The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No Way!

Be very careful!

Jesus said,

Saint Matthew 10:32-33

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven."

King James Bible

Jesus saith unto him, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me".

August 19, 2013 at 5:35 a.m.
librul said...

Yep - that's the Obama "justice department" ... can't be bothered to prosecute war criminals - that would be embarrassing, since Obama IS one. But we gotta pander to the religionists and put another knife in the back of the Constitution and abuse the rights of those who eschew sectarian fairytales. Amerika is a dead country walking.

August 19, 2013 at 6:49 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Now, please tell me, if someone stated "You can obtain the answer to this math problem utilizing any and all possible available formulas", just what would You think?

What does it take to form a specific chemical substance in chemical bonding? Oh, ah, just any ole' catalyst and combination of atoms will do. Yeah, really! The same atom attractions that form gold also form diamonds...NOT, NO, NOTA! All roads do not lead to God, Jesus Christ, God The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No Way!

You are smoking some strange weed this morning, Ken.

August 19, 2013 at 8:07 a.m.
conservative said...

Ike,

You may not like his analogy but it is true.

Read it again or maybe again, you will get it.

August 19, 2013 at 8:15 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Just what does it have to do with this article?

Wait, now I see it. Strange, but in Ken's own round-about way, understandable.

August 19, 2013 at 8:16 a.m.
conservative said...

The writer:

"We would argue that prayer — like cooperation and compromise — should be universal and all embracing, even when specified religions sometimes are not. We don’t have to take God or Jesus out of anything. We just need to let Allah and Yahweh and others in."

The woman does not know that God, Yahweh and Jesus are all the same God.

This is what you get when Liberals who do not believe in the God of Scripture pretend to know about the God of Scripture.

August 19, 2013 at 8:22 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Actually, Allah is also.

August 19, 2013 at 8:32 a.m.
conservative said...

Not a chance

August 19, 2013 at 8:36 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Actually, the Big Three (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) have shared origin. The differences between them are pretty small, even though the practices of each differ quite a bit.

August 19, 2013 at 8:40 a.m.
conservative said...

Here is an analogy of how it works.

You are Ike, and your have certain characteristics and attributes and beliefs and a distinct physical appearance.

Another comes and says she is Ike, but she differs in her characteristics and attributes and beliefs and physical appearance.

Are the two the same Ike?

August 19, 2013 at 8:49 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

So you believe in multiple deities? Curious

August 19, 2013 at 8:52 a.m.
conservative said...

"Actually, the Big Three (Islam, Judaism and Christianity) have shared origin. The differences between them are pretty small, even though the practices of each differ quite a bit."

Yikes! Yikes!! and Yikes!!!

Yes, the differences are small like night and day and north and south and Liberal and Conservative and Heaven and Hell

August 19, 2013 at 8:54 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

You didn't answer my question. You believe that Allah, Yahweh and God are not the same deity, so you believe in multiple deities, right?

August 19, 2013 at 8:56 a.m.
conservative said...

"So you believe in multiple deities? Curious"

You always have to make it up don't you?

You constructed a straw man, a lie.

August 19, 2013 at 8:57 a.m.
conservative said...

Do you believe in multiple Ikes?

August 19, 2013 at 8:59 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

You still haven't answered the question. Do you believe in multiple deities or not? Simple question, conservative.

Last I checked, I was not a deity.

August 19, 2013 at 8:59 a.m.
conservative said...

You are extremly obtuse.

Of course I don't believe in multiple deities just as I don't believe in multiple Ikes.

August 19, 2013 at 9:07 a.m.
conservative said...

Now you answer my question of 8:49

August 19, 2013 at 9:08 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Not a belief. There is only one of me. (genetically) Now, if you believe there is only one deity, what is the name of this deity? What if the believer is not an English speaking person? If you speak Spanish, this deity is "Dios". If you speak French, it is "Dieux". If you speak Russian, it is "Бог". If you speak Arabic, it is " الله " which using our phonemes and alphabet is "Allah".

I am not being obtuse. You are being ridiculous. Of course, from your pre-Enlightenment Christian viewpoint, perhaps that is to be expected.

August 19, 2013 at 9:15 a.m.
conservative said...

Your error is that you will not acknowledge that a name is associated with the characteristics and attributes of that person or that believed in diety.

The difference in the name Allah and God is more than spelling.

August 19, 2013 at 9:23 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

But it is one deity, right? So the difference is how believers worship that deity.

August 19, 2013 at 9:24 a.m.
conservative said...

Now tell me how Allah and God are the same God.

I am in the mood for laughter.

August 19, 2013 at 9:24 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Again: it is ONE deity. So the difference is in the believers.

August 19, 2013 at 9:25 a.m.
conservative said...

Tell me how two people in the phone book with the same name are the same person

I am in the mood for laughter

August 19, 2013 at 9:27 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

But you are now saying that there are two deities! Make up your mind!

August 19, 2013 at 9:28 a.m.
conservative said...

"Again: it is ONE deity. So the difference is in the believers."

HaHa!

No, Allah is a false diety with different characteristics than the true God of Scripture.

August 19, 2013 at 9:31 a.m.
conservative said...

How many Ikes with your same charateristics are there?

August 19, 2013 at 9:34 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

But Allah is a deity and God is a deity. Two deities. How about Yahweh? After all, Judaism is far older than either Christianity or Islam. Three deities?

August 19, 2013 at 9:34 a.m.
conservative said...

If Jesus and Allah were the same you and other Liberals would not be opposed to prayers in Jesus name.

Now, what are you going to do?

August 19, 2013 at 9:36 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Answer the question, conservative. Two or three?

Also, if an arabic christian prays to Allah, which Allah is it?

August 19, 2013 at 9:37 a.m.
conservative said...

I will gladly answer the question but you must first answer mine.

August 19, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I asked first.

August 19, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.
conservative said...

No you have refused to answer several questions of mine.

August 19, 2013 at 9:47 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

BS, but okay, I'll play.

There is only one of me. Really. Even my name is unique, not that a name matters.

Two people in the phone book with the same name can be the same person if the phone company made an error (I've seen that happen) but there are lots of people in the phone book that have the same name and are different people. Not sure how that supports your argument. It seems to support mine (more than one deity).

I am happy for publicly supported prayer to be allowed. Either to the deity for which there is the most physical evidence to suggest his/her/its existence, or prayer to all deities. As of right now, there is the same amount of physical evidence to support the existence of each and every deity. (none)

August 19, 2013 at 9:51 a.m.
conservative said...

I first wrote:

"The woman does not know that God, Yahweh and Jesus are all the same God."

you wrote:

"Actually, Allah is also"

I responded:

"Not a chance"

Do you still maintain that Allah is the same as God and Yahweh and Jesus?

August 19, 2013 at 10:04 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Only if you acknowledge that God, Yahweh and Allah are three gods.

If you don't, I maintain that they are all names for one deity.

August 19, 2013 at 10:04 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks for playing. Gotta go.

August 19, 2013 at 10:20 a.m.
conservative said...

No, because God, and Yahweh and Jesus are all the same God. God, the God and only true God of the Bible has many attributes, so this one God, this same God of the Bible had many names in the Bible

Allah was NOT one of them. Allah is the Muslim god the god of the Koran a different god from the God of the Bible.

Different is well different, the opposite of same.

If you still maintain they are all the same diety then that is your error.

August 19, 2013 at 10:34 a.m.
conservative said...

If Jesus and Allah were the same you and other Liberals would not be opposed to prayers in Jesus name.

Now, what are you going to do?

August 19, 2013 at 10:42 a.m.
conservative said...

If Jesus and Allah are the same what is your gripe with prayers ending in Jesus name?

August 19, 2013 at 10:43 a.m.
conservative said...

Many people have nicknames that describe a characteristic of them

but their person has not changed from their given name.

No, I am not saying God has nicknames, don't even try. It is just another simple analogy.

August 19, 2013 at 10:53 a.m.
soakya said...

Lke, Why don't you ask a muslim if allah is the same God of the bible.

August 19, 2013 at 11:06 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

No, because God, and Yahweh and Jesus are all the same God. God, the God and only true God of the Bible has many attributes, so this one God, this same God of the Bible had many names in the Bible. Allah was NOT one of them. Allah is the Muslim god the god of the Koran a different god from the God of the Bible.

So there is more than one deity.

If Jesus and Allah are the same what is your gripe with prayers ending in Jesus name?

I already answered this question.

August 19, 2013 at 12:09 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Arguing over imaginary gods, saviors, and other supernatural Sky Daddies is like arguing over Batman verses Superman.

There's no heaven, hell, Gotham or Metropolis. But I'll take Batman over Jehovah anyday. Batman dresses better, has nicer manners, and didn't impregate an illiterate girl with his seed to give birth to himself, then die for himself. That plot wouldn't make it out of a third-grade class yet somehow people are supposed to believe that crap.

Batman has a much better storyline and Batman won't condemn you to hell for not believing in him, his son, or the Flying Holy Spook.

Batman 1, Jehovah 0.

August 19, 2013 at 12:09 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

So now that we have settled the question that there is more than one deity out there, now we must decide which one is worthy of worship. What criteria should we use?

August 19, 2013 at 12:11 p.m.
conservative said...

"If Jesus and Allah are the same what is your gripe with prayers ending in Jesus name?"

"I already answered this question."

OK, treat me as obtuse. Tell me again.

August 19, 2013 at 12:20 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

Scroll up. Gotta go paint.

August 19, 2013 at 12:21 p.m.
conservative said...

"So now that we have settled the question that there is more than one deity out there, now we must decide which one is worthy of worship. What criteria should we use?"

Well, the true God of the Bible is the one and only one worthy of worship. He gives you free will to worship false gods, but there are consequences.

August 19, 2013 at 12:26 p.m.
conservative said...

"Scroll up. Gotta go paint"

You could have answered in the same time it took to avoid me.

I said treat me as obtuse, so treat me as obtuse.

August 19, 2013 at 12:29 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said...

"I said treat me as obtuse, so treat me as obtuse."

First, you need treatment for delusions. Then you can be treated for obtuseness. Or, pray for deliverance from delusions and obtuseness at the same time. Give Jehovah multiple choices. While you're on bended knees, ask him why he won't heal amputees. If Gawd can part the Red Seas, create the universe, and help Tim Tebow (though lately He seems mad at Tim) what's He got against amputees?

Christian fundamentalism -- Another entry in the DSM 5.

August 19, 2013 at 12:40 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

I saw that there were 50 comments to this article and I thought, "Great! Lots of posters with lots to say." Silly me. I should have known that somebody like the con-man would have been monopolizing the message board, regurgitating his same old preachments. And shame on you, lkeithlu, for encouraging him! He might be worth a response now and then but to keep going round and round with him is a shameful waste of time. You cannot argue with a lunatic.

I really liked what librul had to say and I'm going to copy and post it again because I think it bears repeating. Hope you don't mind, librul.

"Yep - that's the Obama 'justice department' ... can't be bothered to prosecute war criminals - that would be embarrassing, since Obama IS one. But we gotta pander to the religionists and put another knife in the back of the Constitution and abuse the rights of those who eschew sectarian fairytales. Amerika is a dead country walking."

Amen.

August 19, 2013 at 2:48 p.m.

Two cheers for Obama’s common sense constitutionalism on this issue. (Allow military chaplains to do their jobs, and you’ll merit your three cheers for accommodating religious freedom.)

Clergy should be allowed to pray according to their own customs, as they have always been allowed to do for legislative sessions and official ceremonies in the USA. Their First Amendment freedoms should not be shredded simply because a couple of atheists happen to have thin skin.

No biblical author ever used the word “God.” Arab Christians called God “Allah” before Islam ever existed. Next CINO will tell us that the King James Version was good enough for St. Paul.

While Batman’s storyline has built a fan club of over-weight, under-sexed, socially-inept men, it has yet to build or renew a civilization. No great art, music, literature, architecture, or ethical and legal systems have been created under its influence or inspiration. Just a wasteland of washed up comedians like George Carlin and their semi-literate fans.

August 19, 2013 at 2:50 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You could have answered in the same time it took to avoid me.

You're kidding, right?

Well, now we have it from the expert. There is more than one deity out there. His TROO God and some "false gods" (like maybe they don't have a license to practice being supernatural?)

August 19, 2013 at 3:49 p.m.
conservative said...

Now here comes WWWTW to school us specifically me.

He is still smarting from my correcting him and exposing him as a Liberal.

He writes:

"No biblical author ever used the word “God.”"

He is right in one sense about "no biblical author ever used the word "God"" because God is the AUTHOR of all Scripture! He just used His chosen godly men to write what He wanted them to write.

The Bible is God's revelation to man not man's speculations about God.

Man was not the author of any Scripture.

I REPEAT, MAN WAS NOT THE AUTHOR OF ANY SCRIPTURE.

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2Peter 1:20-21 NAS

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.2Timothy 3:16-17NAS

August 19, 2013 at 3:52 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Then again, no indigenous people have been murdered by followers of Batman, no wars started for Batman, no Batman Inquisitions, no slavery condoned by Batman, no faith-healing charlatans in Batman's name, no Batman condoned rape, incest, and murder. No weekly dues to watch and read Batman, Batman doesn't ask you to drink his blood and eat his body, no sappy, weepy songs about Batman and his blood, Batman doesn't ask you to believe nonsense or risk hell, and Batman doesn't ask you to wear miniature utility belts around your neck or build giant utility belts in his honor.

Plus, better movies about Batman.

George Carlin — funnier than Jehovah. Grumpy ol' Jehovah. He and His whole family need therapy and medication for depression, OCD, narcissism, and psychosis.

Batman 2, Carlin 1, and Jehovah still with a goose egg.

August 19, 2013 at 3:53 p.m.
conservative said...

Ike,

Now you go to the Liberal playbook.

You failed to refute the truth so you attack the person presenting the truth.

August 19, 2013 at 3:55 p.m.
conservative said...

"No biblical author ever used the word “God.”"

Did you notice how WWWTW put "God" in quotes? Well, you see Scripture was not written in English, English was not even around then. So of course the English word "God" did not appear in the original Scriptures.

He thinks he is clever.

However, the Greek word Θεός (Theos) was translated into our English language as God.

Now you know what Liberals try to do.

August 19, 2013 at 3:58 p.m.
conservative said...

WWWTW also wrote:

"Arab Christians called God “Allah” before Islam ever existed."

Allah is the god of the Koran not the Bible.

It is a different god, not of the Jewish or Christian Scripture.

Do not be misled by WWWTW.

August 19, 2013 at 4:05 p.m.
conservative said...

Yes, I see that I added an extra W. You know who I meant.

August 19, 2013 at 4:12 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You failed to refute the truth so you attack the person presenting the truth.

You presented no truth for me to refute. You simply confirmed for me the notion of multiple deities. And I did not attack you. I mocked you. Very different.

August 19, 2013 at 7:16 p.m.
conservative said...

"You presented no truth for me to refute"

I first wrote:

"The woman does not know that God, Yahweh and Jesus are all the same God."

you wrote:

"Actually, Allah is also"

I responded:

"Not a chance"

Do you still maintain that Allah is the same as God and Yahweh and Jesus?

August 19, 2013 at 10:04 a.m.

August 19, 2013 at 7:38 p.m.
conservative said...

There have always been a myriad of false dieties and gods.

You worship your false gods of Liberalism and human wisdom.

Again there is only one true God and it is not Allah.

August 19, 2013 at 7:47 p.m.

“Author” and “write” are synonyms.


“Christian” and “European” are not.

August 19, 2013 at 8:18 p.m.

Mohammed couldn’t bear the thought of living at peace with pagans, so he wrote the Koran and then led his followers into holy war against them. The New Testament is a different sort of book altogether. The way it portrays Theos is worlds apart from the Koran’s image of Allah. I think that’s what CINO is clumsily trying to articulate.

August 19, 2013 at 8:50 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said...

"There have always been a myriad of false dieties(sp)and gods. Again there is only one true God."

Praise Jebus! I've found a picture of con man's one true god.

http://tinyurl.com/m6qjqar

August 19, 2013 at 9:04 p.m.
conservative said...

"“Author” and “write” are synonyms"

They can also be the opposite such as when one who's words and thoughts are all his own versus one who only writes the thoughts and intentions of another.

Liberals deny that God was the author of Scripture and insist that mortal man wrote it. Thus they think they can question the authority of Scripture and are not accountable to obey it.

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 2Peter 1:20-21 NAS

All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.2Timothy 3:16-17NAS

August 20, 2013 at 6:38 a.m.

Like all Pharisees, CINO strains on a gnat while swallowing a camel. If he knew how to read above a fourth or fifth grade level, he would know that I never once, even remotely challenged the divine authorship of Scripture. CINO is quick to assume the worst about anyone challenging his own presumed godhood.

He ignores the fact that his contrast of the words “God” and “Allah” isn’t based on any such contrast in Scripture. (Most likely, he is simply parroting the slogans of his favorite preacher(s).) He is adding to Scripture what isn’t there, a practice that is strictly forbidden by Scripture. “God” and “Allah” are words used in two different languages to translate the Greek word “Theos” and Hebrew words like “Yahweh,” “El,” and “Adonai.” His argument implies that English (and, if his NAS fixation is any indication, American English) is the only language capable of accurate translations of the Bible.

He should stop implicating Arab Christians in the false teachings of Islam. He will be held accountable for such gnat-straining buffoonery. He is still hung up on terms like “liberal” and “conservative” (neither of which is used in any credible English translations of Scripture), heretically making them the criteria for salvation or damnation. He is an inconsistent literalist and an idolater of political labels.

August 20, 2013 at 7:17 a.m.
conservative said...

No,no,no, wwwtw.

You are the one who wrote "No biblical author ever used the word “God.”

You tried to strain the gnat.

The word "God" appears thousands of times in our translations of the Bible.

August 20, 2013 at 7:37 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

In an Arabic bible translation god is called.....?

August 20, 2013 at 7:43 a.m.
conservative said...

"He should stop implicating Arab Christians in the false teachings of Islam"

This is your straw man, your invention, your words, words I never wrote.

Try again.

August 20, 2013 at 7:44 a.m.
conservative said...

"He is still hung up on terms like “liberal” and “conservative” (neither of which is used in any credible English translations of Scripture), heretically making them the criteria for salvation or damnation."

Another straw man, another invention, another lie.

Try again.

August 20, 2013 at 7:48 a.m.
conservative said...

wwwtw,

Now try to refute anything I wrote about Conservative and Liberal the other day.

Tell me how a Liberal who disobeys Scripture, who "changes" the meaning of Scripture and disobeys Scripture can be a Christian.

Which of those sins in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 can a person practice (a lifestyle) and inherit the kingdom of God.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.NAS

August 20, 2013 at 8:03 a.m.
conservative said...

"In an Arabic bible translation god is called.....?"

Are you still trying to say that the god of the Koran is the same as the God of the Bible?

It is either yes, or it is no.

August 20, 2013 at 8:16 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I am trying to show that you are caught between admitting there is more than one deity (a deity is a deity, false or true, each has no more evidence to support its existence than any other) or that there is only one, and the difference is between the adherents/worshippers.

August 20, 2013 at 8:27 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

May I please offer a couple distinctions?

Islam (Allah) sanctions three (3) absolute reasons for which a Moslem may tell lies.

Jesus Christ (YHWH) sanctions zero (0) reasons for which a Christian may tell lies. Jesus said a Christian is never to lie, period.

Islam (Allah)allows for a slave master to have sex with his slaves.

.......................The great Islamic scholar Ibn Timmiya wrote:

"The one who owns the mother also owns her children. Being the master of the mother makes him the owner of her children whether they were born to a husband or they were illegitimate children. Therefore, the master has the right to have sexual intercourse with the daughters of his maid slave because they are the daughters of his property, provided he does not sleep with the mother at the same time"...Vol. 35, page 54.

Jesus Christ said Christians are never to have any kind of sexual relations (even within their thoughts) unless they are married. Jesus Christ said a Christian is not permitted to commit adultery.

Jesus Christ (God) and Allah would be contradicting their very own selves in the examples above. There are many more differences.

Ken ORR

August 20, 2013 at 8:30 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

So, Ken, since you injected yourself. One deity? Or more than one? I am not talking abut holy books. Deities.

August 20, 2013 at 8:32 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

Please understand that Islam is not an Old Testament version of Islam. Islam is a very new religion, approximately 635 years newer than Christianity. The Old Testament, which through dispensations brought us Christianity, is entirely different from Islam, which through Islam has brought us Islam. Islam says 'do this'...Jesus Christ says, "no don't do that which Islam says to do, instead do this".

August 20, 2013 at 8:38 a.m.
conservative said...

But I already knew there were myriads of dieties. I learn that in school in Latin and history (Zeus,Jupiter etc) as well as everybody else. These false dieties are common knowledge.

How could you not know that a Christian believes in only one God, the God of the Bible?

Is your idea of a Christian so perverted that you believe such? I don't believe that.

August 20, 2013 at 8:39 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Answer the question, Ken.

Conservative, how can you demonstrate that the God of the Bible is a true deity, and that Zeus, Thor, Athena and Allah (the Allah that you insist is not the same as God) are false deities?

Curious, also, why is a Christian correct and a Jew not correct? Both worship the God of the Bible, right?

August 20, 2013 at 8:40 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

And, daytonsdarwin, If I gave You one dollar per second for 32 years (of seconds) how much money would I have given You?

ANSWER: One billion dollars! $1,000,000,000

Now, do You truly think it's good for You to declare that You know for a fact that Jesus Christ has not regrown (restored) an amputee's limb? You have the above example of what one billion looks like. There are S-E-V-E-N B-I-L-L-I-O-N people on this planet. Do You truly think it's good for You to declare that You know for a fact that Jesus Christ has not regrown (restored) an amputee's limb?

Ken ORR

August 20, 2013 at 8:46 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

lkeithlu

sATAN is a Deity, so there is more than one Deity.

August 20, 2013 at 8:49 a.m.
conservative said...

Now back to the article, specifically:

"We would argue that prayer — like cooperation and compromise — should be universal and all embracing, even when specified religions sometimes are not. We don’t have to take God or Jesus out of anything. We just need to let Allah and Yahweh and others in."

Hogwash!

It would be blasphemy for a Christian to be required to pray in Allah's name. Likewise for Zeus and Jupiter and Juno and Venus......

And I won't forget the Egyptian gods Hapy, the god of crocodiles, Osiris,Nieth...Their gods were almost uncountable.

August 20, 2013 at 9:02 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

I worked all night last night...9 pm till 6 am. I will catch up on this thread when i wake up this afternoon. Thank You. i must go to sleep now. It's over with for me for today (this morning).

August 20, 2013 at 9:04 a.m.

CINO deflected: Are you still trying to say that the god of the Koran is the same as the God of the Bible?

I cannot respond to a false dichotomy which has no basis in Scripture, history, or linguistic principles. (CINO has some serious literacy issues.). I will not humor your pastor by acknowledging the legitimacy of his construction of man’s dilemma.

Again, there is only one God. Muslims are really confused about who the one God is. The Koran is not a faithful witness to His character or His revelation to humans. However, Muslims are created in God’s image, they worthy of respect and equal treatment under the civil law, and, if CINOs would start loving instead of hating and misrepresenting them, some of them are persuadable. Behind the scenes, such conversions are occurring in sizeable numbers in the Middle East, which is one reason Christians have become such a target for Islamists.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the human authors of Scripture were at all familiar with the English word “God.” I am confident that CINO cannot demonstrate otherwise, since he has yet to do so. If, in His view, Arab Christians are required to use it in order to know God accurately, he has added an extra-biblical condition on salvation. Shame on CINO. (BTW, many Muslims attach similar significance to the Arab language.)

August 20, 2013 at 9:07 a.m.

CINO squirmed: “Tell me how a Liberal who disobeys Scripture, who "changes" the meaning of Scripture and disobeys Scripture can be a Christian.

What I can tell CINO, based on the Bible and as attested universally by Christian tradition through the centuries, is that is that NO ONE can have Christianity on their own times. No exclusions for conservatives. Period. In Jesus day, Pharisees received a much bigger dose of God’s wrath than did Sadducees and pagans for their hatred for outsiders and for twisting the Scriptures to justify themselves and condemn others.

CINO is less than frank in making his ubiquitous and hasty judgment of other souls. He, too, sins. He disobeys Scripture many times every day. As do I. (Responding to a fool’s folly among them.) He also "changes" the meaning of Scripture and disobeys Scripture - in almost ALL of his posts. (Many have proven this, but, alas, he is deaf.) By his own rules, CINO cannot be a Christian, thus his new name, CINO. He, too, must repent, acknowledging that he is what’s wrong with the world, and trust in God’s mercy through Christ.

August 20, 2013 at 9:09 a.m.
conservative said...

"Conservative, how can you demonstrate that the God of the Bible is a true deity, and that Zeus, Thor, Athena and Allah (the Allah that you insist is not the same as God) are false deities?"

I know my God is real. God, the Holy Spirit lives within me as He does all Christians. He walks with me and He talks to me and He tells me I am His own!

He changed my life from a life of sin to a new life of obedience. Not perfect obedience but a radical change nontheless.

And He offers this new life to EVERYONE an eternal life even to you, a person who openly denies Him. Now that is grace!

August 20, 2013 at 9:15 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Quoting hymn lyrics and giving your feelings are not evidence, conservative. You will have to do better than that to suggest that only one of many deities is "true" as opposed to "false". I maintain that the difference is in the followers.

August 20, 2013 at 9:21 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

It's fun to watch true believers each claim that their gawd is the one, the only true gawd.

“Christian Fundamentalism: The doctrine that there is an absolutely powerful, infinitely knowledgeable, universe spanning entity that is deeply and personally concerned about my sex life.” -Anonymous

August 20, 2013 at 9:21 a.m.
conservative said...

wwwtw,

You are full of gibberish. You just make false accusations and straw men.

You don't even cite Scripture but you do spout about literature, man's wisdom.

You seem to have a problem with homosexuality, so tell me how a practicing homosexual will inherit the kingdom of God when His word says otherwise:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.NAS

August 20, 2013 at 9:29 a.m.
conservative said...

"I maintain that the difference is in the followers."

I do too!

One can see a pattern of obedience to God in the life of a Christian, a person who wants to Conserve the immutable teachings of an immutable God versus those who follow the god of Liberalism who seek to "change", pervert and twist the meaning, even denying the meaning of God's holy word.

God will not "change" His moral standards to accomodate sinful man.

Do not be deceived:

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.NAS

August 20, 2013 at 9:40 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

It's nice to see Conman practicing his religion of love this morning. Can you see the peace and tranquility that Jebus has brought him? Look at the lives he's touched on this forum (not to mention who else he's touched). Where else can you find such erudite, fatherly, and warm-hearted spirit of Jebus in your daily travails. Even Orr falls short of the glory of Conservative (just a teeny bit short though).

I feel blessed and thank Jebus for bringing Conservative into my life for showing me how much Gawd loves me. Thank you Conservative. You'll bring many lost souls to your Holy cause through your living example of Gawd's tender love, mercy, and compassion.

http://tinyurl.com/crbyuom

August 20, 2013 at 9:52 a.m.

When CINO cites the passage identifying god as a conservative, I will gladly comment both on his proof texts and on his twisting of them to pervert the gospel. Those who really value the unchanging gospel and who repent of their sins will daily experience radical changes (and radical liberty) as Christ forms His character in their lives. They will admit their own sins and stop dwelling on the sins of others. The biblical gospel defies puny categories like liberal and conservative. By works of the law will no one be saved. By wearing a label will no one be saved. By conserving or espousing a political agenda will no one be saved. Only the grace of God in the sacrificial love of Christ will save.

CINO’s recalcitrance toward good news is just too annoying. Time to go be productive. God save this court and its proceedings.

August 20, 2013 at 1:10 p.m.
librul said...

The babble is nothing but a comic book written for people with NO sense of humor.

August 20, 2013 at 2:26 p.m.
conservative said...

wwwt,

Since the two verses below bother you the most, I will keep repeating them until you accept the truth.

Liberals say the truths in these verses are not true in a few ways.

They say these verses are merely written by man and that God is not the Author. They refuse to obey the truths contain in these verses thereby rejecting the first admonition "Do not be deceived", they ignore them, or they simply refuse to believe them.

Do not "change" the truth of God into a Lie.

The Immutability of God is the principle that God does not change.

He is the original Conservative and the perfect Conservative.

He will not "change" His moral standards to suite you.

“For I, the Lord, do not change; Malachi 3:6NAS

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.NAS

August 20, 2013 at 3:19 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Orr wrote: "Do You truly think it's good for You to declare that You know for a fact that Jesus Christ has not regrown (restored) an amputee's limb?"

Yes. Jesus hasn't regrown limbs. No miracles, no hocus-pocus. Jesus doesn't now or ever did have superpowers. And Elmer Fudd still can't outfox Bugs Bunny.

August 20, 2013 at 3:32 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

conservative said...

"I know my God is real. He walks with me and He talks to me and He tells me I am His own!"

That explains a great deal. Hearing voices are still considered by psychiatry as an auditory hallucination and as a symptom of conditions such as schizophrenic disorders, manic depression and psychosis.

Conservative has hit the holy trinity of mental illness.

August 20, 2013 at 4:16 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

daytonsdarwin

It's gonna' take a very big psychiatric hospital to treat (house) over two (2) Billion Christians +(:>&=;

This is my heart, mind, spirit and soul wish for You daytonsdarwin:

"The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: the Lord make His face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: the Lord lift up His countenance upon thee, and give thee peace."

kwo

August 20, 2013 at 6:27 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

You never answered the question, Ken. Care to have a go?

August 20, 2013 at 6:49 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Not all two billion Christians claim to hear the voice of God. Most don't even believe in a literal, scientific, and historically accurate BIble. Most were born into a Christian tradition like being born Italian, Irish, or Spanish; not a well-reasoned search for Christianity.

For the vast majority in America, it's a social activity with religious notes; not your brand of Bible Thumping. For most who do believe in a god, it's not your psychotic deity version of a hate and damnation Jehovah. It's a god of assistance, a sympathetic shoulder, and a psychological relief. That doesn't make the Christian god real, but it does offer to some a way to deal with life just like Santa Claus for very young children.

There's really only several million that are bat dung crazy; most of those are genetically susceptible and/or mentally troubled and delusional. That's where you, Conservative, and other Christian Reconstructionists fall.

Those faith-healers and "annointed" in Christian broadcasting are charlatans, performing a show for dough. If they weren't hawking god, they'd be selling snake oil, multi-level marketing schemes, and penny stocks - just modern day Elmer Gantrys.

There's no doubt you're a true believer Orr, but having a belief doesn't make it so. I'm always open to new knowledge, new findings, new ways of looking at the universe. I'm happy to shuck my old ways of thinking when new evidence comes along. That's the course of science; what's believed to be correct today can be proved incorrect tomorrow. That's progress.

But you're stuck in an ancient time-warp of revealed religion that claims supernatural characters and ancient writings as true and unchangeable. That's nonsense and that's dangerous. It's not science, it's not history, it's anti-humanity and anti-progress.

Now Ken Ham, a devout Creationist, has finally admitted that Creationism is not science, has no basis in science, but is still true because the BIble says it's true. So now you creationists will have to backtrack from presenting creationism as science (which it never was) to believe Creationism is religious faith. That's been what secularists have been saying all along - creationism is not science but religion and has no place being taught as an alternative theory.

http://tinyurl.com/kq2hgsr

When religious fundamentalism of all Abrahamic traditions, Christian, Muslim, and Judaism, is eliminated as reality, and the moral qualities of peace and goodwill to humanity is taught as a morality above superstitious mumbo-jumbo, there's a chance people will listen and act in accordance with moral philosophies.

But as long as religious fundamentalists insist on stories, myths, and tall tales as true and not metaphors for the mysteries of existence, that these myths are to be taught as reality, that everyman's gods are to be deemed as infallible, the world will not progress.

You are not the solution; you are the problem.

August 20, 2013 at 7:17 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

lkeithlu,

You missed my response someway. It's up there! August 20, 2013 at 8:49 a.m.

It was easy to miss. +(:>

August 21, 2013 at 9:46 a.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

daytonsdarwin

Do You think that Gap Creationism is a plausible and scientific basis on which to begin building a foundation for Christianity?

Here is a beginning explanation from Wikipedia:

Gap creationism (also known as ruin-restoration creationism, restoration creationism, or "The Gap Theory") is a form of old Earth creationism that posits that the six-day creation, as described in the Book of Genesis, involved literal 24-hour days, but that there was a gap of time between two distinct creations in the first and the second verses of Genesis, explaining many scientific observations, including the age of the Earth. It differs from day-age creationism, which posits that the 'days' of creation were much longer periods (of thousands or millions of years), and from young Earth creationism...

I do believe Adam and Eve (Mankind) began approximately 6,000 years ago. But, I do not believe in young earth...kwo

August 21, 2013 at 9:55 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

Again, Orr, your lack of science is apparent.

Why is it that fundamentalists always claim that every word of the Bible is true, accurate, historical, and scientific without any need for clarification. The Word is the Word. You don't need to know anything else but the Word. Just accept the Bible as it is written. End of story.

Then when called upon to explain the contradictions with science, history, and reason, why do fundamentalists commit such illogical gymnastics and convoluted theories to explain what God really meant?

Creationism is not science; creationism is religion. That you can not tell the difference is a testament to your self-created mental disturbance so readily visible to anyone who's read your posts.

Still waiting for those science credentials you promised to reveal nearly two years ago. But you have none, so again you've lied.

Here's a 32 year-old article about creationism. It's still relevant today. I don't expect you to read it, but there are others out there who will.

http://tinyurl.com/m9puzu2

August 21, 2013 at 10:12 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I do believe Adam and Eve (Mankind) began approximately 6,000 years ago. But, I do not believe in young earth...kwo

So all the civilization recorded before 4000 BC is due to what exactly? Apes?

August 21, 2013 at 7:06 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

lkeithlu said...

"I do believe Adam and Eve (Mankind) began approximately 6,000 years ago. But, I do not believe in young earth...kwo

So all the civilization recorded before 4000 BC is due to what exactly? Apes?"

Ike, here's one of the standard fundamentalist answers.

"There were no ancient civilizations or humans before Adam and Eve. Satan leaves false information to trap people into believing heresy. God lets Satan do this to test Christians faith in Him and the Bible. Just like Satan leaves fossils to fool scientists. It's another test by God."

Makes perfect sense, doesn't it? That's just the beginning of what you must believe to be a creationist, Bible literalist, and fundamentalist. It only gets more crazy.

August 21, 2013 at 8:08 p.m.
hotdiggity said...

conservative...Apparently you prefer the rape, murder, and genocide in the Bible more than you prefer the same in the Koran?

Your attempts to sanctify the higher morality of the Bible as opposed to the Koran falls flat.

Jeez, do you fundies even read your Bible?

August 22, 2013 at 12:54 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

hotdiggity,

Please understand that Islam is not an Old Testament version of Islam. Islam is a very new religion, approximately 635 years newer than Christianity. The Old Testament, which 'through' dispensations brought us Christianity, is entirely different from Islam, which 'through' Islam has brought us Islam. Islam says 'do this'...Jesus Christ says, "no don't do that which Islam says to do, instead do this".

In other words, Islam may indeed be compared to our Christian Old Testament (in certain very sketchy instances), but, in no way can Islam be regarded as similar to New Testament Christianity...kwo

August 22, 2013 at 10:02 p.m.
ORRMEANSLIGHT said...

I re-post part of an earlier offering because it seems obvious that some Commenters didn't process this information:

May I please offer a couple distinctions?

Islam (Allah) sanctions three (3) absolute reasons for which a Moslem may tell lies.

Jesus Christ (YHWH) sanctions zero (0) reasons for which a Christian may tell lies. Jesus said a Christian is never to lie, period.

Islam (Allah)allows for a slave master to have sex with his slaves.

.......................The great Islamic scholar Ibn Timmiya wrote (This is official Koranic interpretation sanctioned by al-Azhar University in Cairo):

"The one who owns the mother also owns her children. Being the master of the mother makes him the owner of her children whether they were born to a husband or they were illegitimate children. Therefore, the master has the right to have sexual intercourse with the daughters of his maid slave because they are the daughters of his property, provided he does not sleep with the mother at the same time"...Vol. 35, page 54.

Jesus Christ said Christians are never to have any kind of sexual relations (even within their thoughts) unless they are married. Jesus Christ said a Christian is not permitted to commit adultery (or fornication, which includes homosexual sexual behavior).

Jesus Christ (God) and Allah would be contradicting their very own selves in the examples above. There are many more differences.

kwo

August 22, 2013 at 10:07 p.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

What is not different between fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians is orthodoxy, a dogmatic approach to all religious questions and activities.

Just as extremem religious Muslims will do anything for Allah, so too will Christian Reconstructionists do anything for Jehovah and Jesus.

Catholic orthodoxy killed Jews and Muslims indiscriminately before, during, and after the Crusades. Mormons killed settlers. Catholics and Protestants killed Jews, Jehovah Witnesses, Gypsies, and homosexuals in concentration Camps.

All of the Abrahamic faiths have their Orthodox organizations - all are dangerous.

"Onward Christian Soldiers" is not just a Sunday morning song. To some it's an open call to a real war against anyone not believing the orthodox fundamentalism of the religious system. All will lie to promote their cause.

Don't be fooled by Orr. He's lied many times on this forum and will lie again. His record of lies can be found by going back in this forum.

Like his gaydar buddy Conservative, he's nuttier than a Payday candy bar.

August 22, 2013 at 10:57 p.m.
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