published Sunday, June 9th, 2013

Verizon

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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alprova said...

I guess that Verizon will become a Liberal institution.

Will Republican cheerleaders abandon them for another carrier that may well be sharing the same data with the NSA?

I'm not thrilled with the possible dispensing of metadata of my personal phone calls, but I do see the necessity for those charged with gathering intelligence to ask for it.

June 9, 2013 at 12:09 a.m.
alprova said...

Limric, you were calling B.S. when Representative Mike Rogers claimed that the intelligence gathering of metadata prevented a terrorist attack. You repeated that claim when I offered it too.

Fox News has on its front page, proof of one such prevented terrorist attack.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/08/us-intelligence-official-feds-surveillance-foiled-200-nyc-terror-plot-amid/

June 9, 2013 at 12:22 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Govt at work: they watch umpteen billions of phone dialings and can't hear Russia telling them to watch those guys in Boston.

June 9, 2013 at 12:35 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Big govt in bed with big business? Shrink the govt, of course.

June 9, 2013 at 12:39 a.m.
alprova said...

AndrewLohr wrote: "Govt at work: they watch umpteen billions of phone dialings and can't hear Russia telling them to watch those guys in Boston."

Why are you being intentionally dishonest?

Numerous reports have outlined the fact that the FBI did indeed receive a warning from Russia and that they followed up on it, including personally interviewing Tamerlan Tsarnaev in 2011.

The FBI kept close tabs on Tsarnaev’s travels and Internet activities but could not find anything that tied him to any organized group of terrorists.

I'm quite sure that the FBI executed warrants that included more intrusive spying activities than we are contemplating about metadata being collected from tech companies.

Russia had no evidence either, just a suspicion.

Before he clammed up and stopped talking to law enforcement, Dzokhar Tsarnaev stated that the two acted alone and that neither of them had any ties to militant groups.

June 9, 2013 at 1:04 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

Al/...We looked at that article yesterday. Here is an excerpt:The break in that case came, according to court documents and testimony, when Zazi emailed a Yahoo address seeking help with his bomb recipe.

At that time, British intelligence officials knew the Yahoo address was associated with an al-Qaida leader in Pakistan. That's because, according to British government documents released in 2010, officials had discovered it on the computer of a terror suspect there months earlier. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/08/nsa-phone-program_n_3408264.html?ref=topbar....... I read what Mr rogers said but do you consider that proof? Are you privy to details of how this helped? Seem like ground work and a warrant to a specific target got the job done but data mining? Also on a side note it seems like the Repubs are backing the pres on this one ( at least the establishment repubs) so I'm not understanding your post at 1206 (prism) about McCarthy era revisited. Isn't that what prism is all about......Guilt by association and proving one's innocence? One more point.... When I spoke on Oct surprises and the potential for political abuse I wasn't necessarily referring to collecting phone #s I was referring to the 5 zetabite complex being built in Utah. It will go online around January and store all data intercepted across the internet. This is it's stated purpose. Here's a quote from Sen Feinstein as to why it is necessary: Question: ”But they’re sort of logging this data so they can hold it if they need it later, as opposed to knowing that they need it and getting it.”

Feinstein: “Well, you can’t know that you need it at the time. You have to go to it and see if there is the link that you’re looking for.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2013/06/06/transcript-dianne-feinstein-saxby-chambliss-explain-defend-nsa-phone-records-program/ (provided by Limric) So you have to look at it to see if you can use it. But we won't use it unless we need it..... We will see as the midterms approach if there is anything that they find in there that they may need. For our own good of course because keeping the status quo is for all our own good, collectively speaking.

June 9, 2013 at 1:17 a.m.
limric said...

WHOA – NELLY!

For someone not so enamored with Fox’s objectivity nor their factuality, you’re now attempting to equate a nebulous at best connection of a 2009 terror plot on the New York City subways with a cryptic CYA Rep. Mike Rogers claim in which he said, “We’re working on trying to get this declassified in a way that we can provide more information. We’re not there yet.”

And out of the blue - BING!!! Fox has the facts.

Whatta you and Pee Wee Herman best buddies?

Get Atta Here!!

June 9, 2013 at 1:18 a.m.
alprova said...

AndrewLohr wrote: "Big govt in bed with big business? Shrink the govt, of course."

There are approximately 316 million people in the United States.

There are approximately 2.65 million full, part-time, and contract employees of the Federal Government.

This means that Federal workers represent 8.4% of our entire population.

In 1962, the percentage of Federal workers was 13.3%

In 1964, the percentage of Federal workers was 12.9%

In 1970, the percentage of Federal workers was 14.4%

In 1975, the percentage of Federal workers was 13.2%

In 1978, the percentage of Federal workers was 12.9%

In 1982, the percentage of Federal workers was 11.9%

In 1990, the percentage of Federal workers was 12.3%

In 1994, the percentage of Federal workers was 11.1%

In 2002, the percentage of Federal workers was 9.1%

Government has been shrinking for three decades and you didn't even know it.

June 9, 2013 at 1:29 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

Before he clammed up and stopped talking to law enforcement, Dzokhar Tsarnaev stated that the two acted alone and that neither of them had any ties to militant groups.

And he stopped talking when?

June 9, 2013 at 1:40 a.m.
fairmon said...

Alprova try that comparison using the number of people utilized by the federal government which is different than contract employees. Check out the same periods for dependent on the government percentages.

June 9, 2013 at 1:47 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

Strange bedfellows indeed. It seems that the Libertarians and others who post here concerning limiting the federal government's reach are having an easier time articulating their concerns, while the partisans on the left and the right are still waiting on talking points to justify their teams actions. Good Luck. SO Limric since we can't get an over/under on how long until someone "proves" this has been a success can we get an over/under on how long before someone claims the sequester has delayed building the Utah center and therefore the tea party/limited government types have aided the terrorists?

June 9, 2013 at 1:52 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said....There are approximately 316 million people in the United States. There are approximately 2.65 million full, part-time, and contract employees of the Federal Government.

Way too big to be manageable by anyone.

June 9, 2013 at 1:52 a.m.
fairmon said...

I do hope they are listening to more than indicated. Checking out who is calling who shouldn't bother anyone. Of course no one is required to have or use a cell phone. Nothing to worry about unless you are doing something illegal or talking to a terrorist. I wonder if talking to Obama's brother, the one that got the tax exemption status in 30 days retroactive to past years, would get any attention?

June 9, 2013 at 1:58 a.m.
alprova said...

DJHBrainerd wrote: "I read what Mr rogers said but do you consider that proof? Are you privy to details of how this helped? Seem like ground work and a warrant to a specific target got the job done but data mining?"

I don't understand why this is so difficult for some of you to understand. Are you of the belief that people within the Government are listening in on phone calls or reading private e-mails of the average U.S. citizen?

They are filtering connected telephone numbers and e-mail addresses through computers to find hits with known terrorists outside of the United States. If a hit is found, they might then get a warrant to look into it a little deeper. THEN they might read or listen in on communications.

Your calls to your wife or your grandmother are of no interest to anyone.

"Also on a side note it seems like the Repubs are backing the pres on this one ( at least the establishment repubs) so I'm not understanding your post at 1206 (prism) about McCarthy era revisited."

Because the Tea Party Republicans, being led by Darrell Issa, are hell bent on pinning anything at they can possibly find on the lapel of President Obama.

"Isn't that what prism is all about......Guilt by association and proving one's innocence?"

Everything in section 215 specifically prohibits intelligence gathering on U.S. Citizens, UNLESS they have had contact with any known FOREIGN terrorists.

"One more point.... When I spoke on Oct surprises and the potential for political abuse I wasn't necessarily referring to collecting phone #s I was referring to the 5 zetabite complex being built in Utah. It will go online around January and store all data intercepted across the internet. This is it's stated purpose."

Gee, I guess we'll all have to take more care in what we write in the future. In the meantime, the TFP has every one of our posts archived that we have ever posted on this site. They also have the information stored that can lead the authorities to any one of our front doors.

If you type one word on the net, you cannot expect a word of it to be private. It's entirely public. It's there for life.

Do you believe that your e-mails are private? Only if you use encryption software during the transmission process, do they stand half a chance of being private.

Copies of every e-mail you have sent or received over the Internet is stored on servers, sometimes multiple servers at a time.

Are they publicly accessible? No, but those with access to any one of those servers can pull them up and read them at any time.

If you have a P.C., a laptop, a cell phone, or any other gadget that has Internet access capability, your life is an open book.

I take that into consideration every time I type a word that is transmitted online.

The only private communications I have any expectation will remain private are one-on-one verbal talks with someone where that person and I are the only two people in the room.

June 9, 2013 at 2:14 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "And he stopped talking when?"

Allegedly, he stopped cooperation with any and all authorities when he was read his rights by a Federal Judge.

June 9, 2013 at 2:23 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

For once, I applaud Bennett for keeping an issue on the front burner. This one is WAAAYYY too important not stay on top of. Trouble is, he is going to get himself put on a watch list with this kind of behaviour!

June 9, 2013 at 3:32 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "I wonder if talking to Obama's brother, the one that got the tax exemption status in 30 days retroactive to past years, would get any attention?"

Setting aside any and all rumors to the reputation of the President's half-brother...

I have tried objectively to learn more about the facts surrounding this IRS related scandal. The charge originated from the Daily Caller, which has had problems with credibility many times.

I have a couple of issues with their reporting of the facts surrounding this story.

Number one, no credible, mainstream news outlet has carried the story, but every right-wing whacko site has copy and pasted it.

Number two, although there appears to have been a genuine letter signed by Lois Lerner on June 11, 2011, where is the proof of the dates that the 990 filings for years 2008, 2009, and 2010 were filed with the IRS?

I can't find proof of the 30 day time line at all.

The Daily Caller alleges to having seen documents that prove the filings were made on certain dates in 2011, but fails to provide any copies of those 990 filings to back up that claim.

Someone out there may know where they exist, but until I lay my eyes on them, I am filing this one in the rumor category like everything else anti-Obama.

Where's the proof that the Barack H Obama Foundation was approved for tax-free status in 30 days?

Retroactive approval is not unusual at all, contrary to the story as it was presented. This also gives me reason to doubt the Daily Caller's credibility on the rest of their assertions.

June 9, 2013 at 3:40 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

No Al I do not believe the Gov wants to listen to my phone calls or read my emails. That would make for a boring job and a grand waste of time. I am also aware of every word I type being an open record at TFP so I strive for civil discourse and consistency in my views. But I post here by choice. And I think that is where the line is being blurred. Does the government own the internet? I guess through interstate commerce the gov can do whatever it wants through the regulatory process. But to store data forever of all domestic communications is a stretch to say the least of the interstate commerce clause. Secret safeguards to protect of from the people implementing the safeguards. Secret courts allowing secret things and the ever evolving definition of words. Words like enemy combatant, terrorist, these are my concerns. In my opinion this will become a way to vet potential politicians. Wouldn't a future McCarthy love to have this kind of access. Was he not doing it for the safety of this very country? And when a political upstart starts making waves against the status quo, well national security could be at stake so get the secret court to let you get a look at every piece of electronic communication and acquaintance to paint what ever narrative is convenient to remove the "dissident". No Al I do not have partisan concerns, I have a general fear of the federal government. A federal government that is hell bent on empire. One that can't even take a decrease in a future spending increase without hurting the least among us for political points. One that has the largest military budget in the world but needs more to keep us safe. Like BRP stated they need to keep us safe from the consequences of their policies. And most of all I am afraid of many Americans, like yourself , who simple say well it will be OK. No big deal. it is for the best.

June 9, 2013 at 3:50 a.m.
alprova said...

Limric wrote: "For someone not so enamored with Fox’s objectivity nor their factuality, you’re now attempting to equate a nebulous at best connection of a 2009 terror plot on the New York City subways with a cryptic CYA Rep. Mike Rogers claim in which he said, “We’re working on trying to get this declassified in a way that we can provide more information. We’re not there yet.”..."

I don't often link to Fox, but occasionally they do report the news objectively. When they do, I'm a-okay with linking to them.

"Whatta you and Pee Wee Herman best buddies?"

You know, I have never been rude to you. Just because we find ourselves in disagreement today, is no reason for you to type something like that.

That's twice in 24 hours that you have truly surprised me.

June 9, 2013 at 3:51 a.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "Dang it, earlier I read something that claimed that the USPS is digitising a copy of the front and back of every piece of mail they handle. Now I cannot find it. Can anyone help with this?"

I saw it myself somewhere else, but his one seems to have originated with The Smoking Gun and they document it too.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/woman-arrested-for-obama-bloomberg-ricin-letters-687435-front-and-back-of-every-piece-of-mail-it-processes/

June 9, 2013 at 4:01 a.m.
alprova said...

DJHBrainerd wrote: "Does the government own the internet?"

I'm not sure how to answer that, but the question you should be asking is did the Government create the Internet to have the means to better keep up with what people are up to?

"I guess through interstate commerce the gov can do whatever it wants through the regulatory process. But to store data forever of all domestic communications is a stretch to say the least of the interstate commerce clause."

You do know that the Comprehensive National Cybersecurity Initiative was established by President George W. Bush in National Security Presidential Directive 54 and Homeland Security Presidential Directive 23, both implemented in January 2008, don't you?

Were you aware that in March 2010 the Obama administration declassified limited material regarding the project?

"Words like enemy combatant, terrorist, these are my concerns. In my opinion this will become a way to vet potential politicians."

I'm not sure I'm following you. Do you think that politicians will be accusing each other of being enemy combatants or terrorists?

"Wouldn't a future McCarthy love to have this kind of access."

But they won't have such access. There are penalties for those who leak this "secret" information. If the person is found who leaked the PRISM project to the press is found, they are in deep, deep, excrement.

"Was he not doing it for the safety of this very country?"

C'mon....McCarthy was a loon. That man ruined lives with his suspicions and accusations.

"And when a political upstart starts making waves against the status quo, well national security could be at stake so get the secret court to let you get a look at every piece of electronic communication and acquaintance to paint what ever narrative is convenient to remove the "dissident"."

I simply do not see that happening. The data mined is protected to high heaven, and in it's raw form, is totally harmless as it is not tied to any one individual.

"No Al I do not have partisan concerns, I have a general fear of the federal government. A federal government that is hell bent on empire."

Maybe I am the one being naive here, but I just don't worry about things that I do not have the power to control, prevent, or change.

"One that can't even take a decrease in a future spending increase without hurting the least among us for political points."

I too hate games of political football.

"One that has the largest military budget in the world but needs more to keep us safe."

I'm all for trimming military spending.

"Like BRP stated they need to keep us safe from the consequences of their policies."

I'm in complete harmony with that.

"And most of all I am afraid of many Americans, like yourself , who simple say well it will be OK. No big deal. it is for the best."

Even if I am wrong, what can any of us do about it? Isn't that the bottom line?

June 9, 2013 at 4:35 a.m.
conservative said...

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” Mathew11:28-

June 9, 2013 at 7:04 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

Al....No I believe they will use word like enemy combatant dissident and future obtuse terms to justify expanding the program domestically......McCarthy was a loon. But he was also elected to congress and sat on many committees and used government powers bestowed upon him to harass the citizenry. He went fishing, now imagine someone like Bachman getting on the intelligence committee with this type of database to fish from. Again in my opinion there will be justification for it. Probably something to do with safety.. and it will be done in secret. Not the phone number metadata but the stored data of all communications web searches e mails and even all security videos will be used retroactively for political purposes. It would be too tempting not to use it. Also how many laws have congress exempted themselves from? Do you think there will be political will to censure one of there own? Pure conjecture on my part but we have been lied to as long as I can remember so why should we believe that these secret safeguards are so secure? Lastly, You are correct. There is nothing we can do about it. We can vote against incumbents but they always seem to win. We can keep typing here but not many are reading this. We can try to talk about it but most people roll there eyes and vote for the R or D ( if they bother to vote). So yeah no worries we will both probably be long gone before any of this matters anyway!

June 9, 2013 at 7:13 a.m.
fairmon said...

DJHBrainard...Good post at 7:13 a.m. including the summary:

Lastly, You are correct. There is nothing we can do about it. We can vote against incumbents but they always seem to win. We can keep typing here but not many are reading this. We can try to talk about it but most people roll there eyes and vote for the R or D ( if they bother to vote). So yeah no worries we will both probably be long gone before any of this matters anyway!

DJHB...Things are evolving pretty fast. Who can be trusted? The NSA? Congress? The administration? The judicial branch? The NSA is probably the most reliable but the others have the ability to affect them and to require the release of information to them.

The government under the guise of protecting people extract more and more from them to expand their control over every aspect of peoples lives and increase the dependence on government. This circle continues until the country is the domain of the government and a select few mega wealthy individuals. The American experiment will have come circle back to that from whence the founders fled and fought to achieve liberty and individual freedom.

June 9, 2013 at 8:10 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpo said to limric: "You know, I have never been rude to you. Just because we find ourselves in disagreement today, is no reason for you to type something like that. That's twice in 24 hours that you have truly surprised me." The reason, A.L., is that limric is simply an A-hole....kind of in the DudeAbides world of A-holes

June 9, 2013 at 8:41 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo.....the government didn't create the internet, we all know who did.

June 9, 2013 at 8:44 a.m.
rick1 said...

Obama: Hello, Verizon? I'm interested in your share everything plan.

June 9, 2013 at 8:51 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Following the meeting with the Chinese, AP reports The Dear Leader played a round with former HS friends from Hawaii. "The White House says friends Mike Ramos, Bobby Titcomb and Greg Orme completed Obama's foursome." The Choom Gang? I bet that round took about 9 hours

June 9, 2013 at 8:57 a.m.
jesse said...

After the way Al defends Easy's insane insults and rudeness I'm kinda surprised at him taking offense at Limric's little gouge!

June 9, 2013 at 9:06 a.m.
prairie_dog said...

The whole lesson here is that government cannot be trusted. You can't even expect them to obey the laws. I know this, because I worked for the federal government and saw countless violations of law which went unpunished for many reasons, most of them being that violent crime was not involved, and the crime was waste, or deception, or misuse of taxpayer funds without outright embezzlement.

What do you do when the agency responsible for enforcing the law refuses to do so? When they have a "threshold" on dollar value, or a special category (it's not really a crime unless some oppressed minority group is the victim) that allows them to ignore economic crime against mainstream citizens, that means that white-collar crooks get away with whatever they want.

At the federal level, all law enforcement is politically motivated. If the administration is not behind it, it doesn't happen. It ought to be against the law, and it IS against the law, but there's nothing we can do about it. We're living in a situation now that's as bad as it ever was under a foreign monarch.

June 9, 2013 at 9:09 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...
In case your having trouble following your team here is a short list of new alliances:  
          http://nbcpolitics.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/06/18806685-data-collection-divide-muddles-party-labels-makes-strange-bedfellows?

Since we have been discussing secure secret safeguards this bit of word play sums up my point the best : The only way it can be used is if there is strict scrutiny -- reasonable, articulable knowledge that this can connect to a terrorist attack, either under way or under planning or some conspiracy.”.....or....or...and....huh? reasonable articulable knowledge "that can connect" to terroristic planning/conspiracy. There is a lot of wiggle room in that statement. But isn't there always? Use lots of adjectives(direct involvement) and make up some new terms(enemy combatant) Now can someone find in Webster's and frame a legal opinion around what is reasonable articulable knowledge?

June 9, 2013 at 9:38 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

I like this comment from the comment section of the same Ol_Doc

I can't find the words to describe how hilarious this situation is with Congress and the comment's I'm reading on this thread. Let's start by describing Armageddon:

In the Purple corner...we have: Rand Paul teamed up with Jeff Merkley (if this was it, it would be enough to portent the end of the world).

...and in the Other Purple corner: Lindsey Graham in bed with Nancy Pelosi, and the rest of Congress is choosing up sides like kids in a school yard dodge ball game.

Now for the head explosions, we have Tea Party type posters on the one hand...siding with Rand Paul (makes since) and in a sudden fit of schizophrenia, defending Lindsey Graham and spying on the population in the name of national security.

The Democrats can't decide which is worse, siding with Merkley in opposition to the Obama Administration or siding with Pelosi and spying on Americans.

The Republicans seem to be caught in the same dilemma (thought they'd never admit it). Do we side with Rand Paul and oppose the Obama Administration (the natural thing to do), or do we support Lindsey Graham and fight terrorism. It's enough to make a good conservative's head explode.

This is absolutely the best thing since popcorn. article:

June 9, 2013 at 9:41 a.m.
dude_abides said...

PlainTruth said... "The reason, A.L., is that limric is simply an A-hole....kind of in the DudeAbides world of A-holes."

Rebus Philbin... actually, it's kind of refreshing to see a couple of folks that are usually lumped together as "the left" have a difference of opinion, and air it out. Sure as hell beats the "eyes-front-goose-stepping" you Jack booted thugs do on a daily basis. Have a great day, Anti Klaus.

June 9, 2013 at 10:07 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Let us resolve that no poster be allowed, henceforth, to use, as an avatar, the image of a person that weighs less than they do. And...out.

June 9, 2013 at 10:12 a.m.
jesse said...

Dude! I.ll give you this, ya got the most APT avatar on here!

absolutely fits you to a tee!!

Got them Charles Manson eyes on it!

June 9, 2013 at 10:18 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Dude still rockin that nazi thing.

June 9, 2013 at 10:36 a.m.
Maximus said...

This one is so easy even a caveman and the Democrats can do it......OBAMA SHOULD BE IMPEACHED! Just because he had a white Hippy Mother and a black Marxist Dad does not make Barry The Welfare Pimp immune from being tarred and feathered and run out of office like he should be. Obama is unfit to serve and 50% of Americans do not want to participate in his so called landmark achievement Obamacare. Call your Congressmen and Senator's and demand that impeachment proceedings be brought against Obama immediately! See ya Barry......:).

June 9, 2013 at 10:37 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

Alprova, I can't believe how you are giving Obama Carte Blanche on this matter of national security. You are indeed a stubborn, die-hard fan. You say that you are a registered Republican and it shows, for only a true Republican - of the old school, not the Tea Party type - could find favor with the things that Obama has been doing. I lost respect for him a long time ago for his stance on foreign policy and national security (Bush on steroids) and his phony, feeble protestations against Wall St. and the banks, in whose hip pockets he seems to be ensconced. He can sure make a pretty speech against their greed and recklessness as he pretends to be for the common person, but he either lacks the courage or the will to follow through on anything he says, regardless of the obstructionism of the Republicans.

I usually find myself in agreement with your posts and always respect your opinions and insights but I passionately disagree with you here, on this matter of national security. You seem to be saying, "Well, it's all good, he's only doing what's necessary to keep us safe. Anyway, I have nothing to hide." I know you haven't said those words exactly, I'm just generalizing from what I've gathered from your comments, but you do indeed seem to be saying that. And those are the very things the teabaggers and Republicans were saying when Bush was in office!

I will give Obama credit for at least attempting to put to rest the hyperbolic and meaningless term "War on Terror" but all the while he has tried to change the terminology and is making snail-paced attempts at ending our two actual wars, he is escalating our internal war against terror and doing more than his fair share to usher in the era of Big Brother once and for all. Sure, there is a very real threat to our national security, and terrorists who want to destroy us really do exist, but at what cost do we protect ourselves against them? We have become our own worst enemy. We've already crossed the line into sanctioning torture, our drones have killed as many innocent people as enemy combatants or maybe even more, habeus corpus has practically become an obsolete term, secret prisons where one can be whisked off without trial are a reality, and the government's excuses and means for wire tapping seem to be growing exponentially. I just don't see how you can take it all so matter of factly.

It amazes me that I seem to be in such hearty agreement with so many of the Obama hating posters here, but I have come to dislike Obama for the opposite reasons they do. They wouldn't know a socialist if one bit them in the ass, yet they keep calling him one. Anyway, they are all hypocrites. I don't recall any one of them uttering a word of protest about the excesses of our government in matters of national security when Bush was in office. Not one word. They are protesting the man Obama, not his actions. Hypocrites.

June 9, 2013 at 10:54 a.m.
Maximus said...

A real terrorist organization that obviously needs to be monitored, cut, and downsized is the IRS. Let's start with banning the corrupt and Marxist occupied Government Employees Union. Why in the world do IRS workers require collective bargaining rights? Obama's Brown Shirts at the IRS responsible for targeting Americans must be fired immediately without pay, pension, or any other benefits. That is what would happen to Schulman and Lerner in the private sector and that is what should be done now except they are both being protected by the union.

June 9, 2013 at 11:13 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

FTR, ricky, I openly opposed the Patriot Bill from the get-go. BTW, If I'm ever charged with a serious crime, I want ALPO on my jury.

June 9, 2013 at 11:13 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

During Obama's first campaign for president many Obama supporters thought they were getting FDR, Teddy Roosevelt, Abe Lincoln, and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. all rolled into one. Who'd have thunk we'd end up getting...George W. Obama?

http://www.businessinsider.com/huffington-post-george-w-obama-front-page-2013-6

June 9, 2013 at 11:17 a.m.
alprova said...

patriot1 wrote: "Alpo.....the government didn't create the internet, we all know who did."

I knew that one was coming.

June 9, 2013 at 11:34 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

PT, maybe you opposed the Patriot Bill and maybe some other Republicans did, too. But NO Republican came out as forcefully against Bush's egregious affronts to our rights and freedoms like they're railing against Obama now. In the eyes of almost EVERY Republican torture became a righteous necessity, nobody on the right batted an eyelash over Bush's lies about WMDs, and nobody complained about any of the surveillance excesses that he was committing because they agreed that it was all necessary in our "War on Terror." The lashing that Obama is receiving - though much deserved, I think - is mostly on account of the loathing that you Obama haters have for the guy, not for the actions themselves.

June 9, 2013 at 11:39 a.m.
alprova said...

jesse wrote: "After the way Al defends Easy's insane insults and rudeness I'm kinda surprised at him taking offense at Limric's little gouge!"

At one time, I was not aware how bad Easy was, but I did publicly make a call for him to refrain from such behavior as a means of interacting with others, including yourself.

I made a vow to lay off of inserting personal insults in my posts, and I believe I have kept my word.

So...yeah, I thought what Limric wrote to me was a little out of line, given that we currently disagree on this issue.

June 9, 2013 at 11:39 a.m.
miraweb said...

I also opposed the Patriot act from the get-go. I also think the mass collection of metadata is wrong.

Telephone meta-data doesn't just include date, time, and number. If you have a mobile it has GPS and locator information as well.

The Supreme Court already ruled that slapping GPS tracking devices onto cars just to find out where they go is an unreasonable search.

Phone records just allow that to be done electronically.

The question is not whether it was "legal" or "useful" but whether this is really how we want to live our lives.

Want to find out how often your political opponent visits his mistress? It's in the numbers.

Need a list of everyone attending a Tea Party or OWS rally? Check the metadata.

All you have to do is imagine what Nixon would have done with that kind of access.

June 9, 2013 at 11:45 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

That thing about Gore taking credit for "inventing" the internet was worn out a long time ago, but I'm not surprised that somebody like Patriot is still trying to get mileage out of it. Anybody with half a brain and a smidgen of objectivity knows that Gore was taken completely out of context. You have to be pretty desperate and unoriginal to go back that far and dig up something that was trite and frivolous in the first place.

June 9, 2013 at 11:46 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

So Ricky, do you find Obama's affronts to our rights and freedoms egregious? Please don't put yourself on some imaginary higher plane because you feel others loathe Obama. Opposition is not loathing. Opposing parties oppose.

June 9, 2013 at 11:50 a.m.
miraweb said...

I am even more concerned about the government collecting data on "online behavior."

I'm not every thrilled about private companies doing it - especially as they are the primary sources of the government's data.

If you want a quick check of how many companies have a profile on you go here:

http://www.aboutads.info/choices/

I ran a test - it came back with a number something over 100.

June 9, 2013 at 12:01 p.m.
alprova said...

Rickaroo wrote: "Alprova, I can't believe how you are giving Obama Carte Blanche on this matter of national security."

Why are any of you blaming the President for this? Congress passed the Patriot Act, they have complete oversight over it, and review and have renewed it every two years without so much as a peep of protest. Not one instance of data mining has occurred without their complete knowledge.

"You are indeed a stubborn, die-hard fan."

I sort fact from fiction. I put EVERYTHING into its proper context. I put the blame where it belongs.

"I usually find myself in agreement with your posts and always respect your opinions and insights but I passionately disagree with you here, on this matter of national security."

If you are blaming this on Obama, then we're going to have to continue to disagree. Congress holds all the strings to this one, and has since 2001 when it was passed, and since 2008 when data mining was ramped up exponentially.

"You seem to be saying, "Well, it's all good, he's only doing what's necessary to keep us safe. Anyway, I have nothing to hide." I know you haven't said those words exactly, I'm just generalizing from what I've gathered from your comments, but you do indeed seem to be saying that."

What I am saying is that there are people working in Washington, under the radar, who have full authorization to mine data for the purposes of discovering the intelligence needed to find and root out domestic ties to foreign groups that are involved in terrorism, and I do not have an ounce of objection to it.

Lots has been offered, but what is missing from all of you is one instance where all of this data mining has resulted in one person in the United States having been arrested, convicted, and is languishing in prison today whose illegalities was discovered through the collection of metadata.

"Sure, there is a very real threat to our national security, and terrorists who want to destroy us really do exist, but at what cost do we protect ourselves against them?"

I would think that given what happened to 3,000+ of our citizens in 2001, the proper answer to that would be "whatever it takes to avoid a repeat of it ever happening again."

June 9, 2013 at 12:09 p.m.
jesse said...

When i watched those folks jumping from the trade towers to keep from burning to death and the info that came out over the next 6 mo.'s or so, If Bush had wanted to nuke the intire mid east i would have cheered!Then when it came out that the Iraq invasion was based on SMOKE and lies I started to rethink somewhat!Now Obama OWNS what ever goes down ! It's HIS name on the door now! I still think Obama was a better option than Mitts BUT the bottom line is niether one o them is worth a shat!

June 9, 2013 at 12:18 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

AL I would add that both parties have been in control at differing times so both parties in congress share to blame/praise for the escalation of domestic surveillance. And Rickaroo the patriot act started my journey toward the Libertarian party and the non interventional approach of Ron Paul.

June 9, 2013 at 12:21 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

PT, I think that anybody can easily surmise from my comments thus far that I do indeed find Obama's affronts to our rights and freedoms egregious. I made the comment that when it comes to foreign policy and national security he is "Bush on steroids." Good lord, man, do you need me to print in bold type and with exclamation marks before you can understand what I'm saying? But Obama has earned my ire and antipathy through his actions. You Obama haters just hate him for the mere fact that he's Obama. I guarantee you that if a Republican were in office now and doing the same things you guys would not be lashing out at all. And you know it.

June 9, 2013 at 12:25 p.m.
jesse said...

Pat1's comment about the net was funny and Al's reply was even funnier!

Roo, have you EVER smiled or maybe even laughed out loud?

June 9, 2013 at 12:47 p.m.
patriot1 said...

Rickyroo....sorry, the algore video and comment was from the time when he was veep and running for POTUS.....you are so right, we shouldn't be digging up things from past adminstrations, should we?

June 9, 2013 at 12:59 p.m.
alprova said...

The outrage that some of you are expressing over phone and Internet data mining is very simply explained.

Although all of you should have been aware of it, not to mention that there have been numerous instances in the press since the Patriot Act was passed, where planned acts of terrorism were discovered and halted, both here and in other countries, it seems that some of you never took the time to wonder how it was that they were discovered.

You never once had the thought that YOUR communications might be occasionally scrutinized and excluded. Are you truly that shocked to discover that your complete and total privacy has been ordered to the back of the bus for more than a decade?

This is not the first time this issue has come up. What did happen a few days ago is that a foreign newspaper put a name on it, and it has hit some of you on the head with a ten pound sledge hammer.

I repeat, and this is important, that section 215 of the Patriot Act expressly prohibits all of the abuses that have some of you on edge at the moment.

The data collected is not usable by anyone other than high level National law enforcement, nor in its raw form can it be used to trace it to so much as one person.

Anyone inside or outside of those empowered to collect it who would dare attempt to disclose it to others, or to use it for anything other than to discover domestic ties to foreign groups who sponsor or are involved in terrorism, would be guilty of a high level crime.

Cybercrime is a real threat to all of us as well. I do a great deal of business online, I pay every single one of my bills online. I'm very careful and am keenly aware of anything that does not look kosher, and so far my senses have kept me from being a victim of identity theft.

But, how many people have been victimized by cybercrime? Some of you may well have been victims yourselves. The Internet is filled with criminals. I want them arrested and convicted. I want child pornographers put away.

Right now, the criminals have the upper hand. A simple Craigslist transaction can be a ploy to rob you, rip you off, or can result in a situation where your very life is in danger.

I want law enforcement to do whatever they have to do to step up to the plate and to be able to monitor the Internet for illegal activities and to catch those involved in such activities.

June 9, 2013 at 1:14 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpo: Then presidents don't matter, eh? Let's do away with them and let Congress run things.

June 9, 2013 at 1:16 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

I'm laughing at you right now, jesse. You're a hoot. On this forum I tend to either laugh or cry at the rampant stupidity and gutter-thinking of the rabid righties, Bible thumpers, and wingnuts in general. And then there's you who's always claiming that your cynicism and WTF attitude to everything is the only correct and reasonable attitude to have. So yeah, jesse, I'm laughing right now. AT you, not WITH you.

That comment about Gore and the internet was funny back when it was fresh and new but only because the righties made such a big deal out of it. If you're still chuckling over it, well, I'm not surprised. It doesn't take much to make an old fart with the mind of a two-yr.-old laugh.

June 9, 2013 at 1:23 p.m.
jesse said...

Some how i get the feelin that they are doin stuff we still don't know about!Just because this got outed don't mean thay came clean about anything else!

June 9, 2013 at 1:29 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Wow, Ricky. You've been tainted by Easy.

June 9, 2013 at 1:30 p.m.
jesse said...

I never claimed it was the the CORRECT attitude to have, it's just the attitude i have after 60 some odd year of watchin what goes on in govmt. I know it ain't never gonna get better just more of the same!

BTW:speakin of easy???

June 9, 2013 at 1:35 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

There are approximately 316 million people in the United States.

There are approximately 2.65 million full, part-time, and contract(?) employees of the Federal Government.

This means that Federal workers represent 8.4%(?) of our entire population.

Government has been shrinking(?) for three decades and you didn't even know it.


First off ... As someone has already pointed out, the federal government has hidden their expansion of people performing government tasks by outsourcing the majority. The number of people that do not show on lists as government employees but are employed by the government is now about 2 1/2 times the officially claimed number. Your claim of a shrinking number of employees holds no water and any person that is just paying casual attention could have already told you that.

Second ... You have mentioned several times that you are an accountant and have done number crunching for polling companies. You would think that a person that really did those things would have a feel for numbers and math. Obviously you don’t and when I saw your above post I realized within seconds that you don’t.

June 9, 2013 at 1:39 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Patriot, Gore's taken-out-of-context remark was insignificant at the time and it's even less significant now. Bush on the other hand left us massive stinking heaps of crap that wrecked the economy, stuck us with two unpaid-for wars (one of which was illegitimate and the other protracted and excessive), and ushered in the era of Big Brother by playing on our fears. And the Republicans have done nothing but join hands and form circles around the heaps of crap that Bush laid as they stand in the way of anybody who tries to do anything about cleaning them up. It's not that we keep "digging up" Bush's many faults, crimes, and ineptitude. It's just that the stinking evidence is still all around us and monogrammed with his initials!

June 9, 2013 at 1:47 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Rickaroo said...

That thing about Gore taking credit for "inventing" the internet was worn out a long time ago, but I'm not surprised that somebody like Patriot is still trying to get mileage out of it. Anybody with half a brain and a smidgen of objectivity knows that Gore was taken completely out of context. You have to be pretty desperate and unoriginal to go back that far and dig up something that was trite and frivolous in the first place.


It is true that Gore did not claim to have "invented" the internet. However when given the opportunity to pat himself on his back about his qualifications to be president he did so violently that he broke his arm. He said something stupid, it was not taken out of context, and he will have to live with it the rest of his life and beyond.


Rickaroo said...

That comment about Gore and the internet was funny back when it was fresh and new but only because the righties made such a big deal out of it. If you're still chuckling over it, well, I'm not surprised. It doesn't take much to make an old fart with the mind of a two-yr.-old laugh.


I wonder what mentality it takes to still be so upset about it after all these years. I always tell the children that when it itches you should not scratch and it will heal faster.

June 9, 2013 at 1:54 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Jtwhatever...I simply made a comment on it. I thought it was a silly and irrelevant thing to bring up, and I merely pointed that out. I am no more "upset" about it than you are to keep the conversation about it alive. I got no itch to scratch, sister - at least not about this issue. I've had my say and I'm done with it. You are the one doing the needless scratching.

June 9, 2013 at 2:07 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

I made a vow to lay off of inserting personal insults in my posts, and I believe I have kept my word.

So...yeah, I thought what Limric wrote to me was a little out of line, given that we currently disagree on this issue.

alprova said...

I was absolutely being patronizing.

Definition of PATRONIZE: to adopt an air of condescension toward

Synonyms: lord it over, condescend, talk down to

June 9, 2013 at 2:17 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "You have mentioned several times that you are an accountant and have done number crunching for polling companies. You would think that a person that really did those things would have a feel for numbers and math. Obviously you don’t and when I saw your above post I realized within seconds that you don’t."

Yep...I really screwed the pooch on that one. It was late, I was tired, and the information I derived was from Washington Post article. I mistakenly thought the last column in a table was an extension of percentages. I failed to read the heading on that column or double check the math.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2010/09/how_many_federal_workers_are_t.html

I goofed.

June 9, 2013 at 2:22 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Rickaroo said...

Jtwhatever...I simply made a comment on it.


It was only implied to until you gave it substance and if you hadn't that would have been the end. However you obviously had such a strong emotional reaction to it that you just had to scratch the itch.

Thank you for bringing it up so we could once again address the continuing ”Foibles of Algore” .

June 9, 2013 at 2:30 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "Definition of PATRONIZE: to adopt an air of condescension toward. Synonyms: lord it over, condescend, talk down to"

My dear, you are the poster child of condescension and just about every post you offer is patronizing someone. I have a long way to go to catch up to you in that department.

I did not insult you. I pointed out the fact that you love asking the most ridiculous questions. And you do.

June 9, 2013 at 2:34 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

I goofed


But your clients(?) have to pay the penalty for you being tired, distracted, or just not simply rechecking your work.Not very good work habits I would say.

June 9, 2013 at 2:35 p.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "Alpo: Then presidents don't matter, eh? Let's do away with them and let Congress run things."

Did I say that Presidents don't matter? Of course they matter.

But I repeat a point I made yesterday...

Anyone who believes that one man has the capability to have his finger on the pulse of this nation, 24/7/365, is quite delusional.

The issue of data mining has most of you upset at the moment, but while it has been conducted under the table, the Patriot act spells it out in plain and simple English. It has been online for anyone to read, and has been updated several times for eleven and a half years.

This "secret" program has never been secret.

June 9, 2013 at 2:47 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "But your clients(?) have to pay the penalty for you being tired, distracted, or just not simply rechecking your work.Not very good work habits I would say."

Honey, my accounting work is checked, rechecked, and checked a third time before it leaves my desk. I don't deliver mistakes to clients. I don't perform critical work late at night or when I am tired.

What I posted last night was not critical or even the least bit important.

Given that you have never admitted making any mistakes in this forum, and you HAVE made more than a few, pardon me if I don't get too upset with your choice to rub my nose in the carpet for this one.

June 9, 2013 at 2:55 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said ...

How is your freedom threatened if they collect metadata about the phone calls you place?

One must understand exactly what is collected in a metadata database. I collect metadata on those who visit my business website. The most that I can do with it is to sometimes identify the area code of the visitor, the ISP name and unique identifying address, if one is issued by the ISP. I cannot use any of the information to look up the name of the computer user. If I attempt to trace the user, the most I get is the name of their ISP. And an ISP can be very misleading. The user may be local, but the name and the address of their ISP may be in California. Only the ISP can pinpoint the user.


I see what you mean, that the collection of metadata is of little use since you have clearly shown how little can be gleaned from it and if you couldn’t do then ... well you know. As a result you have proven to us that we have little to fear but fear itself.


Wait! .... What! ...

Are you saying that the collection of metadata thwarted planned acts of terrorism? But I thought you said it was just data and not our thoughts so how were they able to process that data, into what the callers were planning, after all you showed how utterly useless it was?

I think I know how they do it. Have you ever seen or operated one of the 20 Questions electronic games. I’m sure now that they have one of those but it’s really, really, really big.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/18328/how-electronic-20-questions-games-work

June 9, 2013 at 3:01 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

You boys should stay on an even keel, like moi.

June 9, 2013 at 3:10 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "Wait! .... What! ...Are you saying that the collection of metadata thwarted planned acts of terrorism? But I thought you said it was just data and not our thoughts so how were they able to process that data, into what the callers were planning, after all you showed how utterly useless it was?"

Are you intentionally being obtuse, or does it come natural?

If the computers come up with a hit, i.e., a possible phone call placed to a known number in a foreign country with ties to terrorism, the investigating agency goes to court to obtain a warrant to THEN attempt to identify the person who placed the call, and privacy ceases to exist for that person or household.

June 9, 2013 at 3:13 p.m.
alprova said...

PT...you're a dead man today.

June 9, 2013 at 3:17 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Dead man? How so, A.L.?

June 9, 2013 at 3:19 p.m.
alprova said...

Your avatar is that of a dead man.

Andrew Breitbart died on March 1, 2012.

June 9, 2013 at 3:20 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Have not seen the word "obtuse" so much since I last saw The Shawshank Redemption.

June 9, 2013 at 3:22 p.m.
alprova said...

It's a good word.

June 9, 2013 at 3:23 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Oh, got it A.L......not dead to many. Had a set. I know you were a big fan.

June 9, 2013 at 3:24 p.m.
alprova said...

Uh...no I was not a Breitbart fan, but I am sorry he died so young.

June 9, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

I guess that Verizon will become a Liberal institution.

Will Republican cheerleaders abandon them for another carrier that may well be sharing the same data with the NSA?


You mean these companies just called up the NSA and offered this data for free. I would have thought they would at least wait until the government forced them with some highly legalized boilerplate filled document.

Verizon, like all corporations that are heavily regulate by the government, tries to evenly divide their support.

June 9, 2013 at 3:41 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

This is how you deliver the message, to one of the behemoth administrative agencies, that you need an action performed as you want to maintain “plausible deniability”.


The Obama administration and its allies continue to suggest the IRS was working in some political vacuum. What they'd rather everyone forget is that the IRS's first BOLO list coincided (August 10th, 2010)with their own attack against "shadowy" or "front" conservative groups that they claimed were rigging the electoral system.

Aug. 9, 2010: President Obama says: "Right now all around this country there are groups with harmless-sounding names like Americans for Prosperity, who are running millions of dollars of ads . . . And they don't have to say who exactly the Americans for Prosperity are. You don't know if it's a foreign-controlled corporation."

Aug. 11: The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee email warning about "Karl Rove-inspired shadow groups."

Aug. 21: Mr. Obama ... "attack ads run by shadowy groups with harmless-sounding names. We don't know who's behind these ads and we don't know who's paying for them. . . . You don't know if it's a foreign-controlled corporation. . . . The only people who don't want to disclose the truth are people with something to hide."

Week of Aug. 23: The New Yorker's Jane Mayer authors a hit piece on the Koch brothers in which she accuses them of funding "political front groups." The piece repeats the White House theme, with Ms. Mayer claiming the Kochs have created "slippery organizations with generic-sounding names" that have "made it difficult to ascertain the extent of their influence in Washington."

Aug. 27: White House economist Austan Goolsbee accuses Koch industries of being a pass-through entity that does "not pay corporate income tax." The Treasury inspector general investigates how it is that Mr. Goolsbee might have confidential tax information. The report has never been released.

Democratic Party files a complaint with the IRS claiming the Americans for Prosperity Foundation is violating its tax-exempt status.

Sept. 2: The Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee warns that the Kochs have "funneled their money into right-wing shadow groups."

Sept. 16: Mr. Obama repeats that a "foreign-controlled entity" might be funding "millions of dollars of attack ads."

Four days later he again says the problem is that "nobody knows" who is behind conservative groups.

Sept. 21: Sam Stein (reports)... "Obama, Dems Try to Make Shadowy Conservative Groups a Problem for Conservatives,"

That a "senior administration official" had "urged a small gathering of reporters to start writing on what he deemed 'the most insidious power grab that we have seen in a very long time.' "

(cont)

June 9, 2013 at 4:18 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

(cont)

Sept. 22: Mr. Obama warns that conservative groups "pose as non-for-profit, social welfare and trade groups," even though they are "guided by seasoned Republican political operatives" who might be funded by a "foreign-controlled corporation."

Sept. 26: David Axelrod declares outright that the "benign-sounding Americans for Prosperity, the American Crossroads Fund" are "front groups for foreign-controlled companies."

Sept. 28: The president warns about conservative organizations "posing as nonprofit groups."

Sen. Max Baucus, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, writes to the IRS demanding it investigate nonprofits. The letter names conservative organizations.

Oct. 14: Mr. Obama calls these groups "a problem for democracy."

Oct. 22: he slams those who "hide behind these front groups."

Oct. 25: he upgrades them to a "threat to our democracy."

Oct. 26: he decries groups engaged in "unsupervised spending."

These were not off-the-cuff remarks. They were repeated by the White House and echoed by its allies in campaign events, emails, social media and TV ads. The president of the United States spent months warning the country that "shadowy," conservative "front" groups—"posing" as tax-exempt entities and illegally controlled by "foreign" players—were engaged in "unsupervised" spending that posed a "threat" to democracy.

Yet we are to believe that a few rogue IRS employees just happened during that time to begin systematically targeting conservative groups? A mere coincidence that among the things the IRS demanded of these groups were "copies of any contracts with and training materials provided by Americans for Prosperity"?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323844804578529571309012846.html

June 9, 2013 at 4:25 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Obama's weekly radio address:

"This bill would provide a pathway to earned citizenship for the 11 million individuals who are already in this country illegally--a pathway that includes passing a background check, learning English, paying taxes and a penalty, and then going to the back of the line behind everyone who's playing by the rules and trying to come here legally."


by MATTHEW BOYLE

While that claim would quell a lot of criticism of the bill if it were true, it simply is not accurate.

When illegal immigrants apply for “registered provisional immigrant” status under the provisions of the bill, the first step in legalization, they do not need to demonstrate that they can speak English. When they apply for renewal of their RPI status, they still do not need to prove they can speak English.

Only when illegal immigrants apply for their “legal permanent resident” status, or green card, would they be “required” to demonstrate(?) their ability to speak English.

In fact, the immigration bill weakens the current law by allowing illegal immigrants to simply claim they are enrolled in a course to learn English rather than actually requiring them to know it.

President Obama’s other claims about the bill strain credulity as well. His argument that illegal immigrants would need to “pay taxes”, but that claim has since been thoroughly debunked by The Daily Caller’s Mickey Kaus, who called it a “fraud.”

Kaus noted that “it looks as if illegal immigrants will only have to pay back taxes if the IRS has already moved to assess them for it. What about income taxes that weren’t paid or assessed because illegal immigrants were working off the books, or using fraudulent Social Security numbers?"

As for the claim from President Obama that illegal immigrants would need to pay “a penalty,” Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-AL) put that assertion in perspective“Mr. Rove says they have to pay a $1,000 fine over 6 years,” Sessions said. “What is that--$170 dollars a year, $15, $12 a month? So this is the punishment?"

Obama’s claim that illegal immigrants would have to go “to the back of the line behind everyone who's playing by the rules and trying to come here legally” is a stretch at best as well. First off, millions of illegal immigrants--both those who are described as DREAMers and agriculture workers--would have access to green cards and citizenship within just five years of the bill’s passage.

The bill’s passage would also immediately legalize all illegal immigrants in the country, allowing them to work and have access to state and local welfare benefit, along with all the other benefits conferred on those in the United States legally. Meanwhile, those who have followed the rules must wait, as per usual, in their home countries for their applications to be processed.

June 9, 2013 at 4:47 p.m.
alprova said...

JonRoss wrote: "FREE EDWARD SNOWDEN"

He's not imprisoned. He ran like a little chicken off to China, believing it to be a paradise where one can practice free speech and where people are allowed to criticize the Government.

Boy...is he in for a surprise.

He is now a man without a country, and he knows the minute he steps back onto U.S. soil, he's gonna face some hefty charges.

June 9, 2013 at 5:39 p.m.
miraweb said...

So shines a good deed in a weary world.

June 9, 2013 at 6:01 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

The Unknown Poster said ..."By always being in campaign mode Obama gives the impression that he's not responsible for anything."

alprova said ... What makes you think he's in "campaign mode?" He'll never run for public office again.


It’s very simple if you just pay attention. He is in permanent campaign mode so as to realize his objective to ”Fundamentally Transform the United States of America”

"He will fundamentally transform America from a society where the majority of people live by the sweat of their brows to one where the majority live off the labors of a shrinking productive class.

Fundamentally transform America from one where the American dream is a job, home, and family to one where the dream is food stamps, welfare, Obama-phones, and government dependency.

Fundamentally transform America from a society that strives, however imperfectly, for a color-blind equality to one where race matters in everything from enforcement of voter protection laws, to college admissions, to hiring, to school grades and discipline.

Fundamentally transform America from a country that believes in entrepreneurial efforts and free markets to a controlled economy where central planners make economic decisions for you.

Fundamentally transform America from a country where our grandkids have a brighter future to one where they will live in poverty and destitution under the yoke of unpayable debts to fund ever-larger vote-buying schemes from leftist interest groups.

Fundamentally transform America from a land of plenty to one where the poor cannot drive, heat their homes, or feed their families as they are crushed by energy costs to please environmental interest groups and green crony contributors.

Fundamentally transform America from one where there exists a balance of power between the states and the federal government, and between the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the federal government, to one in which an all-powerful president rules through unaccountable czars and unchecked executive orders.

Fundamentally transform America from a country which the honored function of the military is to protect the nation and our freedoms to one where the military is the Petri dish for social experimentation. If that costs the lives of troops, well, it's a small price to pay for the liberal elites to have their dreams, because their children don't serve.

Fundamentally transform America from a land that welcomes immigrants who want to join our culture, adopt our values, learn our language, and participate in the political, economic, and social life of the nation to one where illegal colonizers are allowed to live off our economy and taxpayers while imposing the failed, corrupt cultures they came from on our people and society.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/10/barack_obama_and_the_fundamental_transformation_of_america.html#ixzz2VkriaTs4

June 9, 2013 at 6:13 p.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo.....how about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? Did you feel the same way about him as you do Snowden? (pardon me rickyroo, I know the Pentagon Papers happened a long time ago)

June 9, 2013 at 7:36 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

by BEN SHAPIRO:

During his speech in San Jose, California on Friday, President Obama took one question from the press on national security monitoring of Americans. Without any sense of irony whatsoever in the aftermath of the IRS’ targeting of conservatives, the administration’s stonewalling on Benghazi, the Department of Justice’s targeting of reporters, the Department of Health and Human Services’ leveraging of private organizations for Obamacare public relations cash, and the Environmental Protection Agency’s secret email addresses, Obama unloaded this line:

"If people can’t trust not only the executive branch but also don’t trust Congress, and don’t trust federal judges, to make sure that we’re abiding by the Constitution with due process and rule of law, then we’re going to have some problems here."

June 9, 2013 at 7:54 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Rep Maxine Waters bragging about Obama collecting Americans information:

“The President has put in place an organization with the kind of database that no one has ever seen before in life.”

“That’s going to be very, very powerful. That database will have information about everything on every individual on ways that it’s never been done before and whoever runs for President on the Democratic ticket has to deal with that. They’re going to go down with that database and the concerns of those people because they can’t get around it. And he’s [President Obama] been very smart. It’s very powerful what he’s leaving in place.”

June 9, 2013 at 8 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Does anyone find it chilling that I'm pasting everything on this site into emails to Prizm? Now, all I gotta do is star in some movies with a monkey, get elected President, and holler, "Mister Glasnost, tear down this perestroika!"

June 9, 2013 at 8:34 p.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "Alpo.....how about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? Did you feel the same way about him as you do Snowden?"

Had to look that one up. You see, I was only 11 years old then.

You know my feelings about the wars we have been involved in since the Korean War, so no, I don't view Daniel Ellsberg as a criminal who should be compared to Edward Snowden.

Ellsberg's motivations and reasons were totally different than were those of Snowden. Ellsberg was attempting to save lives.

Snowden committed a felony to release information to the public of a perfectly legal, but controversial program because he disagrees with it, not because the Government is necessarily doing anything improper.

I made the call earlier today for any example of an American who has been arrested, convicted, and is now in prison, for any offense other than for their ties to international terrorism, having been found out through data mining, and no one has come through with such an example, which indicates to me that the Government has used data mining 100% down the line, as it is spelled out in the Patriot Act.

Snowden did not expose any criminal act by the Government. All he has done is to lose a very good job, commit what some would call a treasonous act when he revealed classified information to a foreign entity, endanger his entire future, and in short order, he will wish that he had simply quit his job and started a new career at McDonald's.

June 9, 2013 at 9:58 p.m.
alprova said...

"You can't have 100 percent security and also then have 100 percent privacy and zero inconvenience. We're going to have to make some choices as a society." -- President Barack Obama - June 7, 2013

June 9, 2013 at 10:15 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Now this was a truly smart guy:

“Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.” [Benjamin Franklin]

One of the Founding Fathers of the United States. A noted polymath, Franklin was a leading author, printer, political theorist, politician, postmaster, scientist, musician, inventor, satirist, civic activist, statesman, and diplomat. As a scientist, he was a major figure in the American Enlightenment and the history of physics for his discoveries and theories regarding electricity. He invented the lightning rod, bifocals, the Franklin stove, a carriage odometer, and the glass 'armonica'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin

June 9, 2013 at 11:16 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, ObamaCare is a form of Data Mining, which will put health and medical information under control of the IRS. Do believe our government wouldn't leak a political opponent’s information?

Do you believe our government would not release health and medical information of a reporter if they did not agree with what he/she was reporting?

Do you believe our government would not release health and medical information of people from a political group they did not agree with?

I believe our government would release this information for political gain, which would have a devastating effect on our political process and free speech.

June 9, 2013 at 11:22 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Al, ObamaCare is a form of Data Mining, which will put health and medical information under control of the IRS. Do believe our government wouldn't leak a political opponent’s information?"

What information? That a political opponent might not have health care insurance? Oh my...

"Do you believe our government would not release health and medical information of a reporter if they did not agree with what he/she was reporting?"

Sir, the IRS is not going to have access to anyone's personal medical records. They will only have access enough to determine if one has health care coverage, the amount of any premiums paid, and who paid them.

"Do you believe our government would not release health and medical information of people from a political group they did not agree with?"

Same answer as above.

"I believe our government would release this information for political gain, which would have a devastating effect on our political process and free speech."

Then you need to do just a wee bit of research into the IRS's role in ObamaCare, because your fears are not in any manner even a possibility.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-irs-medical-records-obamacare-20130524,0,858630.story

June 9, 2013 at 11:31 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said....I goofed

Very noble of you to admit the error. I think an investigation may reveal the government utilization of people in it's service has grown exponentially and will continue doing so with the AHCA. The initial 16,000 IRS employees will increase in number and other functions will be staffed with government employees plus a significant increase in those working in outsourced operations. 2014 and 2015 will reveal the true cost which many in the departments projecting the cost say is under estimated. The hidden taxes such as on implants and joint replacement is significant.

The government is so huge even the government has a hard time knowing just how big it is much less manage it effectively and efficiently. To think the president knows about the wasteful behavior like unnecessary millions for seminars and entertainment or the maverick possibly illegal behavior of some in a department or in his close circle is being naïve. Presidents have to trust a lot of people, unfortunately Obama seems to do a poor job of selecting trustworthy people. Remember this name.. Valery Jarrett.

June 10, 2013 at 12:24 a.m.
alprova said...

The same people who feel Barack Obama has never had any credibility are the same ones who feel he has none today.

They're preaching to the choir.

The sandals are playing out just as I predicted they would. There are nothing scandalous to them and they are all dying without touching anyone in the White House.

Benghazi...Gone.

AP and Rosen...gone.

The IRS Scandal...going nowhere.

NSA Gate...Nothing illegal has been uncovered at all, but a formerly fine young man who had a very bright future made a horrible decision to betray his Government and has flushed that bright future straight down the toilet.

Unless someone in the White House is found in bed with a dead girl or a live boy, the Republicans are running out of tricks to try to win the hearts and minds of the voters next year.

Elijah Cummings made the rounds on Sunday after sending a five-page letter to committee Chairman Darrell Issa, accusing him of withholding information in the IRS probe and criticizing how he has investigated the Justice Department’s Operation Fast and Furious, the fatal Benghazi terror attacks last year, and the IRS.

"Your actions over the past three years do not reflect a responsible, bipartisan approach to investigations, and the committee's credibility has been damaged as a result. Your approach in all of these cases has been to accuse first, and then go in search of evidence to back up your claims. You have selectively leaked excerpts of interview transcripts, documents and other information, and you have withheld evidence that directly contradicts your claims."

When Darrell Issa was asked by Candy Crowley on CNN's "State of Union" about Elijah Cumming's charges, he replied that "the IRS case is solved and I'm going to wrap this case up and move on."

Isn't anyone bothered by the lack of credibility that Darrell Issa has shown, not to mention the time and money that has been wasted on all these non-productive hearings, while the nation still has a plethora of real and substantive issues waiting for Congress to address?

June 10, 2013 at 1:55 a.m.
fairmon said...

alprova ask...

Isn't anyone bothered by the lack of credibility that Darrell Issa has shown, not to mention the time and money that has been wasted on all these non-productive hearings, while the nation still has a plethora of real and substantive issues waiting for Congress to address?

yes. The IRS investigation may be ended but solved is not the right description. Also, nothing has been done to assure nothing similar happens in the future. There has been no recommendation such as simplification of the tax codes and elimination of all the tax exemptions. Therefore, the time and money has been wasted if nothing else results from the "congressional investigation". There is no evidence congress knows how to conduct a thorough investigation. Or, it could be both parties have so much dirty laundry they have to tread lightly.

June 10, 2013 at 4:53 a.m.
fairmon said...

I will repeat, I don't think Obama is a competent leader, I don't like most of his initiatives. However, it is ridiculous to think he knew before hand the details of the guns to Mexico fast and furious fiasco. It is naive to believe he knew about the IRS targeting which apparently is not illegal. He was left out of the loop about Benghazi and probably initially believed it was the video. He has no reason to know of every DOJ initiative such as the AP and journalist investigations. Did someone in his administration know? More than likely they did or should have. The attempts to link him to or insinuate he was a part of any of the so called scandals dilutes the investigations and waste time. An investigation limited to those in top positions will never yield any meaningful results.

June 10, 2013 at 5:27 a.m.
rick1 said...

Al said Sir, the IRS is not going to have access to anyone's personal medical records. They will only have access enough to determine if one has health care coverage, the amount of any premiums paid, and who paid them.

Al, I fear an overreaching government and I believe these fears are well founded.

An unnamed health care provider in California is suing the IRS and 15 unnamed agents, alleging that they improperly seized some 60 million medical records of 10 million Americans, including medical records of all California state judges, on March 11, 2011.

The complaint alleges that IRS agents exceeded the scope of their search warrant, seizing not just financial records, but “information on psychological counseling, gynecological counseling, sexual and drug treatment, and other sensitive medical treatment data.”

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/03/14/55707.htm

June 10, 2013 at 6:33 a.m.
conservative said...

Troubled? Can't sleep? Up all hours of the night?

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”Mathew11:28-30

June 10, 2013 at 6:37 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Alprova says: " I don't view Daniel Ellsberg as a criminal who should be compared to Edward Snowden. Ellsberg's motivations and reasons were totally different than were those of Snowden. Ellsberg was attempting to save lives. Snowden committed a felony to release information to the public of a perfectly legal, but controversial program because he disagrees with it, not because the Government is necessarily doing anything improper."

I noted today that Daniel Ellsburg has thanked Edward Snowden:

“In my estimation, there has not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden's release of NSA material – and that includes the Pentagon Papers, for which I was responsible 40 years ago. Snowden's whistleblowing gives us the possibility to roll back what has amounted to an "executive coup" against the US constitution.

Since 9/11, there has been, at first secretly but increasingly openly, a revocation of the bill of rights for which this country fought 200 years ago. In particular, the fourth and fifth amendments of the constitution, which safeguard citizens from unwarranted intrusion by the government into their private lives, have been virtually suspended.

The government claims it has a court warrant under Fisa – but that warrant is from a secret court, shielded from effective oversight, and with the broadest possible interpretation. This makes mockery of the rule of law, let alone of the bill of rights. As Russell Tice, a former National Security Agency analyst, put it: "It is a kangaroo court with a rubber stamp."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/10/edward-snowden-united-stasi-america

June 10, 2013 at 7:49 a.m.
Maximus said...

Jt6g....you are the MAN! Your Transform America get real about Barry The Lame Duck Marxist Welfare Pimp was on target and saved me a lot of time this weekend. Alpo, Rickaroo, Mtnlaurel, and Easy continue to be the leaders in the clubhouse as far as squandering their time and their lives sitting on their miserable fat asses responding to a leftist cartoonist on the Internet. Quite a distinction! No.....boring and so very sad! Alpo...his major activity this weekend was sitting by himself posting on the net when he could have been watching Obama voter Cee Lo Green shout F You at Riverbend!

June 10, 2013 at 8:35 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

I am absolutely SHOCKED by the dismissiveness of nearly every politician I hear running their mouth on all of the news stations.

Freedom is dead in this country. Our government's imperialist ambitions have created so many enemies and "national emergencies" that we have been duped into giving up our civil rights so our federal government can "protect" us. The feds have already demonstrated that they are fully capable of abusing the police powers they have taken in secrete. The gravity of the situation will not be fully understood for years.

June 10, 2013 at 8:37 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Conservatives and the liberty minded have been screaming about the partiot act for a long time....this from 2007

June 10, 2013 at 8:42 a.m.
limric said...

Thanks for posting that Mountainlaurel.

I believe that this is ostensibly what I (and some others) have related regarding the steady erosion of our rights. I applaud Mr. Ellsberg and stand firmly with him.

Those defending this affront to the 4th amendment will rue the day(maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow)they sided with George Orwell instead of Benjamin Franklin.

To quote BRP: "The gravity of the situation will not be fully understood for years." he's right you know.

P.S. I apologize to Alprova for the snappy & insulting behavior. I too said I wouldn't do that. I promise not to do that again.

June 10, 2013 at 9:08 a.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Al, I fear an overreaching government and I believe these fears are well founded."

I share the facts. I can't make you believe them.

"An unnamed health care provider in California is suing the IRS and 15 unnamed agents, alleging that they improperly seized some 60 million medical records of 10 million Americans, including medical records of all California state judges, on March 11, 2011."

Unnamed health care provider...eh?

Let's be sure to revisit this one when this extremely vague lawsuit is filed properly in a court of law, if it ever is.

Until then, I say it is a false claim.

June 10, 2013 at 9:15 a.m.
alprova said...

Limric wrote: "P.S. I apologize to Alprova for the snappy & insulting behavior. I too said I wouldn't do that. I promise not to do that again."

Apology accepted, and it's all water under the bridge.

June 10, 2013 at 9:20 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

All over, huh? Lefties say The Dear Leader knew nothing about any of the "scandals". If that's true, he's got to be the dumbest s.o.b. ever elected.

June 10, 2013 at 9:34 a.m.
jesse said...

Niel Young has a song titled "Rust never sleeps" this also applies to the govmt.erosion of the rights and freedoms we enjoy!once lost they never come back!

June 10, 2013 at 9:36 a.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "Freedom is dead in this country."

Really? Name one freedom you do not have now that you once did.

"Our government's imperialist ambitions have created so many enemies and "national emergencies" that we have been duped into giving up our civil rights so our federal government can "protect" us."

What civil right or rights have you given up?

"The feds have already demonstrated that they are fully capable of abusing the police powers they have taken in secrete."

There is not a shred of evidence that the Government has abused one printed word of the Patriot Act during the nearly twelve years it has been the law of the land.

I fully understand why it is that some are uncomfortable with it, but not one American has fell victim to prosecution for a crime, not outlined in the Patriot Act, as a result of the gathering of data allowed under the Patriot Act in twelve years. Not one.

Thus, I don't get why now, all of a sudden, that this level of outrage has ensued.

"The gravity of the situation will not be fully understood for years."

Yes indeed. If the intelligence gathering community receives the kick to the balls that some of you are calling for, the gravity of the situation may well include the loss of someone you love or your own life.

The dangers still exist. There are still some very pissed off people out there who want to exact revenge against any United States citizen out there in retaliation for the actions of our national leaders over the last three decades.

All I have witnessed over the past couple of days, is a handful of politicians seizing on this misplaced outrage to posture themselves for their next political run for office, and some of you are going to fall for it, hook, line, and sinker.

June 10, 2013 at 9:41 a.m.
klifnotes said...

See front pages TFP article:

Senators blocked reins on NSA

Senators like Corker claim to be shocked by the far reaching powers of NSA in gathering phone records. However, according to TFP article front page they actually opposed several amendments that would have strengthened protection of civil liberties and privacy for American citizens. In other words, they're publicly playing shock 'n awe, but behind the are still throwing blocks and bricks in an effort to take away Americans rights and freedoms and destroy the president.

TFP excerpt:

WASHINGTON — Senators opposed several December initiatives that would have strengthened oversight of the program that reportedly allows the National Security Agency to access America's phone records and computer screens.

On Thursday, U.S. Sen. Bob Corker said it was "troubling" to read the Guardian newspaper's report on the NSA's nationwide roundup of Verizon phone records. The Tennessee Republican claimed to have "no idea" of how much the Obama administration used the Patriot Act to justify collection. Corker later issued a statement calling for "appropriate oversight and protections for the civil liberties of innocent Americans."

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2013/jun/10/senators-blocked-reins-on-nsa/?local

June 10, 2013 at 9:41 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

Here’s a video of the guttless defender of the NSA's vast internet spying apparatus, called PRISM, and his naïve acceptance of the virtuousness & incorruptibility of an agency pronouncing its practice is to be used only to make us safe!

Won't these unpatriotic agitators like Limrick, DJHBRAINERD, BigRidgePatriot, Rickaroo, Jt6gR3hM be surprised when they get to the airport for their next trip and find that they’re on the "no fly list"? DOH

June 10, 2013 at 10:08 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Yeah, I really trust FISA. From 1979- 2012, FISA court rejected 11 out of >33,900 surveillance applications. Eleven. Can you say rubber-stamp?

June 10, 2013 at 10:16 a.m.
conservative said...

And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.Hebrews:13

June 10, 2013 at 10:18 a.m.
patriot1 said...

Alpo asks....what right have you given up?

It's called the 4th ammendment Alpo: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]

June 10, 2013 at 10:30 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

Say klifnotes,

So - Senators like Corker claim to be SHOCKED by the far reaching powers of NSA?

They’re shocked alright. Just like this:

June 10, 2013 at 10:41 a.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "It's called the 4th ammendment Alpo: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

When one conviction comes down the pike as a result of data mining phone calls, outside of those offenses namd in the Patriot Act, then let's discuss violations of the 4th Amendment.

Until then, you're grasping at straws.

Let me pose a couple of questions;

Do you think it is a "right" to be able to place a phone call?

Does the constitution protect a "right" to total privacy when one is on the telephone?

June 10, 2013 at 10:52 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Seems to me, A.L., that the court has already invented the right to privacy.

June 10, 2013 at 10:58 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

alprova said... "The dangers still exist. There are still some very pissed off people out there who want to exact revenge against any United States citizen out there in retaliation for the actions of our national leaders over the last three decades."

The problem goes back more than three decades, it goes back to the late 1800's. Unfortunately, no one is talking about fixing the problem. They are only taking away our liberties in the name of protecting us from the hatred being created by the problem.

Your faith in government astounds me. Just put a D after the name and you seem to be ready to trust them with every aspect of your life. This will probably work out OK for you and horrible for your children and grandchildren.

June 10, 2013 at 11:11 a.m.
limric said...

Alprova asked BRP,

Do you think it is a "right" to be able to place a phone call?

Answer: Yes

Does the constitution protect a "right" to total privacy when one is on the telephone?

Answer: Yes

My question to you; simplistic as it is: Why are ‘warrants’ then necessary for wiretaps?

In 1967 (or thereabouts)the Supreme Court made clear that eavesdropping or wiretapping phone lines counted as a search that required a warrant.

And with that decision, a federal wiretap statute was passed in 1968. The ‘Wiretap Act’. This requires police to get a warrant for a wiretap. And; it’s often even harder to get (well-it used to be) than a regular search warrant. Why? One reason the Fourth Amendment and the statute give us more protection against government eavesdropping than against physical searches is because eavesdropping violates not only the targets privacy, but the privacy of every other person that they communicate with. Very important point!

Thus, unwarranted wiretapping violates the Constitutional right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects.

June 10, 2013 at 11:24 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

The president has appointed Snowden to investigate himself.

June 10, 2013 at 11:28 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Alprova says: “Not one American has fell victim to prosecution for a crime, not outlined in the Patriot Act, as a result of the gathering of data allowed under the Patriot Act in twelve years. . . I don't get why now, all of a sudden, that this level of outrage has ensued.”

I understand the outrage. For starters, the Patriot Act has always been a BIG problem for a variety of reasons. While most people understand why, most people have tolerated it because they thought it was a temporary situation. But it has been applied for over a decade now, and what was suppose to be a temporary situation has become a way of life, which is risky in a democracy, and I don’t think most Americans signed up for a long term arrangement.

Most people also thought that the Patriot Act only impacted individuals directly connected to terrorists, but as Mr. Snowden has shown us this is not the complete story. As it turns out, for-profit businesses are accumulating years and years worth of private telephone records, email records, Facebook records etc. of every American citizen, which places not only our democracy at risk, but puts every American who emails, uses the telephone, uses the internet, and maintains a Facebook page at risk for potential abuse at any point in the future.

Now, some of our one dimensional thinkers like Fairmon and the U.S. Congress have suggested there is “Nothing to worry about unless you are doing something illegal or talking to a terrorist,” but for those of us who are accustomed to utilizing our common sense we know better than this. If you’re interested, I just read a good article in The Atlantic, “All the Infrastructure a Tyrant Would Need” that points to some of these common sense points:

“The American people have no idea who the president will be in 2017.

Nor do we know who'll sit on key Senate oversight committees, who will head the various national-security agencies, or whether the moral character of the people doing so, individually or in aggregate, will more closely resemble George Washington, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, John Yoo, or Vladimir Putin.

What we know is that the people in charge will possess the capacity to be tyrants -- to use power oppressively and unjustly -- to a degree that Americans in 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, or 2000 could've scarcely imagined. To an increasing degree, we're counting on having angels in office and making ourselves vulnerable to devils. . .”

Even if you think Bush and Obama exercised those extraordinary powers responsibly, what makes you think every president would? How can anyone fail to see the huge potential for abuses?”

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/06/all-the-infrastructure-a-tyrant-would-need-courtesy-of-bush-and-obama/276635/

June 10, 2013 at 1 p.m.
miraweb said...

Interestingly, the government has asked for more time to give the court its responses after the NSA revelations in two pending privacy cases:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/government-asks-more-time-eff-surveillance-cases

June 10, 2013 at 1:04 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

A rare agreement with the laurel.

June 10, 2013 at 1:08 p.m.
acerigger said...

The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations: remotely activating a mobile phone's microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations.

The technique is called a "roving bug," and was approved by top U.S. Department of Justice officials for use against members of a New York organized crime family who were wary of conventional surveillance techniques such as tailing a suspect or wiretapping him

http://news.cnet.com/2100-1029-6140191.html

Read the article,but note it's from 2006!

Think they may have up-graded techniques by now?

June 10, 2013 at 1:22 p.m.
nowfedup said...

My how "hi tech educated" is this nation, if at all. News story a while back on NSA site in Utah. "Patriot Act" authorized this and more, yet a nation of fools howls and cries like little kiddies sent to bed early. Just a question, has anyone noted the gov is NOT taking the data, they OBTAIN the data from the huge files, growing daily of civilian companies, that is the danger as they are 100% unregulated. When they coordinate ALL the data on you they can track you 24/7 in ever detail. So lot's not get to upset about "gov and data" as it is actually "business and data", which as unregulated, can ruin your life, medical, spending, locations etc ALL on file, you name it, business can track it. Wake up fools, it is not the government we must worry about, you life 24/7 is for sale

June 10, 2013 at 1:39 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

mountainlaurel and miraweb are looking at this thing from the correct perspective.

roving bugs (thanks for sharing that acerigger), digitising images of letters sent through the post office, surveillance cameras, face recognition, surveillance drones, health records, firearm records, internet and phone records... They will probably hack your BI/LO bonus card records before long, if they have not already. It seems pretty clear that they are manoeuvring to create digital profiles of everyone that can be use to automatically categorise each citizen for whatever purposes they may desire. This is not how the government in a free society works. This is government gone mad. This is the kind of behaviour you expect from repressive regimes. You can choose to trust current politicians, or not. Once having set all of this up you can rest assured that it will eventually be abused with horrible consequences.

This whole exercise is doing a good job of proving alprova is nothing but a political hack.

June 10, 2013 at 1:40 p.m.
patriot1 said...

good post mtnlaurel

June 10, 2013 at 1:43 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Hillary: Vote for me. I rode my intern-bangin husband's coattails to the top.

June 10, 2013 at 1:47 p.m.
patriot1 said...

BRP is correct.....add to that smart meters via your utility company, cookies on your computer, etc. I know we have been sold on the legitimate reasons for these things, but everything is in place and as BRP points out, will eventually be abused if not already.

June 10, 2013 at 2:06 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

nowfedup said... "it is not the government we must worry about, you life 24/7 is for sale"

The data collection by companies is a problem but don't let it distract you. Our interaction with companies is voluntary. The government imposes itself upon us with the force of a gun. When companies do force us into business with them it is through the power of the government. It seems to me that YOU have some waking up to do!

June 10, 2013 at 2:06 p.m.
jesse said...

A lot of thought provoking discussion going on here today!

a lot of well thought out posts!

June 10, 2013 at 2:22 p.m.
alprova said...

Limric wrote: "My question to you; simplistic as it is: Why are ‘warrants’ then necessary for wiretaps?"

Data mining is not anything close to wiretaps. It is nothing more involved than what you see on your very own detailed phone bill every month. It is a listing of the numbers called and the duration of those calls.

"In 1967 (or thereabouts)the Supreme Court made clear that eavesdropping or wiretapping phone lines counted as a search that required a warrant."

And in any instance where the NSA actually would monitor phone calls, there would be a warrant issued.

"Thus, unwarranted wiretapping violates the Constitutional right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects."

I remind you that no unwarranted wiretapping has been occurring. Perhaps your objection stems more from the secret court set up that issues any warrants that would allow wiretapping, but there is absolutely no evidence that any wiretapping of your phone or mine has ever taken place.

June 10, 2013 at 2:23 p.m.
degage said...

Al, You claim no evidence wiretapping of phones has taken place. That is not the point, It seems the government will have carte blanche to do as they please in the future. Can you prove this will not happen?

June 10, 2013 at 2:35 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said....

I remind you that no unwarranted wiretapping has been occurring. Perhaps your objection stems more from the secret court set up that issues any warrants that would allow wiretapping, but there is absolutely no evidence that any wiretapping of your phone or mine has ever taken place.

alprova...until recently most people were not aware of the data mining that was going on. The patriot act should not have been passed to start with and like most laws and government ventures will only grow beyond the current size and scope. I repeat there is nothing to be concerned about unless you are talking about something to someone you don't want exposed or talking to a terrorist. However, to me the patriot act is bad legislation that violates the right to privacy and invites abuse. Trusting current politicians is a mistake and there is no telling what challenges to the constitution the future holds. It wouldn't take many like Maxine Waters to really muck it up. Unfortunately the possibility of repeal is not likely so be careful who you talk to and how.

June 10, 2013 at 2:53 p.m.
limric said...

The only possible way for me to truly convey my opinion of your answers to my questions is the photo in the link below:

http://s275.photobucket.com/user/TheWoodenBlock/media/cleese.jpg.html

June 10, 2013 at 3:14 p.m.
limric said...

I’m going to go on record, right here, right now and say Edward Snowden may (by admittedly disclosing top secret documents about the National Security Agency’s massive violation of the privacy of law-abiding citizens) go down as one of this nation’s most important whistle blowers. He is certainly one of the bravest; and in my eyes, the textbook definition of a patriot.

Both he and Daniel Ellsberg have given us a glimpse of something all to quite rare; they are men of principles. “The government has granted itself power it is not entitled to. There is no public oversight. The result is that (NSA employees) have the latitude to go further than they are allowed to.”

I say again: Edward Snowden deserves the ‘Medal of Freedom’! (and to an extent, Bradley Manning & Julian Assange too)

If the DOJ comes after Snowden as it has other whistle blowers with a heavy club as I’m sure it will, It is because they want vengeance- because the callous, supercilious, erroneous and ignorant acts by government officials in dealing with internal affairs have been revealed. (whoopsies!)

They are embarrassed that they have been exposed as the lying liars that we tacitly know they are. They are mortified that some ‘civilian’ (Eww!) or news organization will draw our attention to the fact that the government is engaging in illegal and unconstitutional acts and over-classifying everything - everywhere at now conspiratorial levels (see Dan Whisenhunt below).

If it (the Govt.)is going to defend this corrupt system of secrecy, try reminding yourselves what Socrates taught us: ”Law independent of the state is superior to it.” The founders knew this; today’s Politian and bureaucratic automatons have disregarded this completely and thus exposes the truth of Lord Acton’s, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” And - it is my firm belief the coming Snowden ‘persecution’ will discredit an already discredited DOJ further. Proving without a shadow of a doubt Justice Louis Brandeis’s dictum that, in politics, “sunlight is the best disinfectant.”

I’ll end this ‘ineffectual lefty loud mouth Gun toting agitator’ diatribe with some great comments gleaned from the ‘Tweets’ section of this very paper:

” No terrorist attacks = See? All these powers we've claimed are keeping you safe." New terrorist attack = "This is why we need more powers." ~Radley Balko

”U.S. govt can quickly access our private info at all times, but we must use time-consuming FOIA requests to obtain info about government.” ~Dan Whisenhunt

The Revolution WILL be televised!

June 10, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

limric said... "The only possible way for me to truly convey my opinion of your answers to my questions is the photo in the link below:"

Really?... :)

June 10, 2013 at 3:27 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

limric said... "Edward Snowden...He is certainly one of the bravest; and in my eyes, the textbook definition of a patriot."

I agree completely. It is alarming to see how willing the talking heads are to shift intense focus onto Snowden while they seem to be totally "ho-hum" towards the actions of the government.

June 10, 2013 at 3:30 p.m.
jesse said...

BRP!

Thats the SAME look he gives to Sarah Palin!!

June 10, 2013 at 3:32 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

alprova said...

The Unknown Poster said ... "An unnamed health care provider in California is suing the IRS and 15 unnamed agents, alleging that they improperly seized some 60 million medical records of 10 million Americans, including medical records of all California state judges, on March 11, 2011."

Unnamed health care provider...eh?

Let's be sure to revisit this one when this extremely vague lawsuit is filed properly in a court of law, if it ever is.

Until then, I say it is a false claim.


Here is the official certified court filing:

http://global.nationalreview.com/pdf/complaint_051513.pdf

You can revisit this at your leisure.

“I share the facts. I can't make you believe them.”

June 10, 2013 at 3:32 p.m.
limric said...

Really?... :) he say's?

A pictha woith a tousand woids ain't it BRP! ;-D

June 10, 2013 at 3:34 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Yes, it is!

June 10, 2013 at 3:37 p.m.
Leaf said...

The thing about having a lot of data, is that if you are looking for a particluar pattern you will find it even in random data. It's how conspiracy theories work. Take a few coincidences, string them together, ignore everything that doesn't fit, apply inneundo, and you can put together a good circumstantial case. Recognizing this the courts have put together lots of rules to try to diminish this tendency. But I imagine spies don't care about rules of evidence or due process or any of that stuff.

I think Snowdon is a hero. I will vote for anyone who says they want to repeal the so-called patriot act. Very dissapointed it wasn't Obama. (Just kidding, Department of Homeland Security! I love you guys! Please don't murder me.)

June 10, 2013 at 3:38 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Leaf said... "I will vote for anyone who says they want to repeal the so-called patriot act."

Here, Here!

Don't expect that from any of our representation from Tennessee though, if past behaviour is any indication.

June 10, 2013 at 3:44 p.m.
limric said...

Jesse said...

BRP! Thats the SAME look he gives to Sarah Palin!!

LOL.

Ohh Yeaaa!!

That ‘laughing boy’ happens to be a photo of your wife looking at you leaning & leering from the bedroom door in your BVD briefs.

Whoo! I just threw up in my mouth. BLEA!!

June 10, 2013 at 3:51 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

limric said...

I say again: Edward Snowden deserves the ‘Medal of Freedom’! (and to an extent, Bradley Manning & Julian Assange too)


Not so much for Manning and Assange.

Here is what Snowden had to say about Manning.

From the Guardian article:

“Snowden said that he admires both Ellsberg and Manning, but argues that there is one important distinction between himself and the army private, whose trial coincidentally began the week Snowden's leaks began to make news.”

"I carefully evaluated every single document I disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately in the public interest," he said. "There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact that I didn't turn over, because harming people isn't my goal. Transparency is."

“He purposely chose, he said, to give the documents to journalists whose judgment he trusted about what should be public and what should remain concealed.”

June 10, 2013 at 3:52 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

BRP: I'm totally in with shizcanning the Patriot Act.

June 10, 2013 at 4:04 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

great pic limric

June 10, 2013 at 4:17 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

PlainTruth said... "I'm totally in with shizcanning the Patriot Act."

I heard a talking head claiming that the majority of Americans are OK with the data collection in the name of security.

I said to myself, "WHAT"? If they actually have some pole that says that I doubt it will hold up for long.

June 10, 2013 at 4:18 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

"I say again: Edward Snowden deserves the ‘Medal of Freedom’! (and to an extent, Bradley Manning & Julian Assange too)" - limric

I agree with you completely, limric. But while the libertarians and righties are dancing with the liberals in agreement over Snowden, they will most assuredly walk away in a huff when you ask the band to play Manning's song. They have no problem exposing corruption in our government, which they think is basically evil anyway. But when it comes to the military, well, it is sacrosanct in their eyes, and to expose its nefarious inner workings is tantamount to treason. I would be very surprised to find any libertarians or conservatives singing the praises of Bradley Manning. Most of them would prefer to see him hanged, shot, or rotting away in prison for the rest of his life.

June 10, 2013 at 4:25 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

BRP....Don't expect that from any of our representation from Tennessee though, if past behaviour is any indication.....

The ones currently there own this mess. They voted for it so they must defend it but don't look for it to be around come november 2014......This issue is to nuanced for the general election. It's best if they stick to the Ten Commandments, school prayer, gay relationships, and saving the unborn.

June 10, 2013 at 4:26 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

nowfedup said...

has anyone noted the gov is NOT taking the data, they OBTAIN the data from the huge files, growing daily of civilian companies, that is the danger as they are 100% unregulated.


It’s true that the government can’t collect data, on its citizens, like the evil private enterprise capitalist corporations can. As a result the government enlists the evil corporations, that they are in bed with, to do their dirty work for them. The government didn’t have to serve legal documents, threaten the companies or even give them legal cover for releasing private information on their customers, who could possibly sue them for doing so.

Is that the way you see it going down?


When they coordinate ALL the data on you they can track you 24/7 in ever detail. So lot's not get to upset about "gov and data" as it is actually "business and data", which as unregulated, can ruin your life, medical, spending, locations etc ALL on file, you name it, business can track it. Wake up fools, it is not the government we must worry about, you life 24/7 is for sale.


You know what is the worst thing about that kind of activity? When I use my “market” card to get $.40 off on a loaf of bread they mail me coupons to get additional discounts on .... wait for it ... the same exact things I buy every day. The B*&%$#@s !!! know every time I eat a Honey Bun.

I’ll tell you how to beat that spying on your personal activities. When you check out wait until there is another person in line and tell them you forgot your card and may you use theirs. Then those poor suckers will be tagged as Honey Bun eaters.

June 10, 2013 at 4:30 p.m.
limric said...

Jt6gR3hM,

Mmm yea ok. Manning should have been more careful.

But, Don't you think it could be argued that the Manning/Assange leaks lead to the exposure of gross injustices, murder, mayhem, corporate profiteering, fraud and the suffering? Also,Couldn't Manning’s actions be taken as a way to live up to his oath to the Constitution?

I did qualify it by saying say "to an extent," but yea, I see your (and Snowdens) point.

June 10, 2013 at 4:31 p.m.
fairmon said...

Give me liberty or give me death as Nathan Hale and now some whistle blowers may well think. We should probably praise them instead of attack. Have we become a country with a majority of dependent wusses? Are we willing to send some to risk life and limb to protect our liberty and rights but willing to sacrifice those rights out of fear? Do your congressional reps know what you think of the patriot act? It may not help but mine knew what I thought of it initially and now.

June 10, 2013 at 4:38 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

Rickaroo..... I believe the righties concervatives and the Tea party may have a tendency to fit your narrative concerning military support and Private Manning but the Libraterians tend to be much further to the left when it comes to military spending and forgien involvment. As far as goverment being evil I would counter that the federal government it a self serving entity that is operating in a positive feedback manner. Continually using authority it has granted itself to justify needing more authority. Authority it has upsurped from the states though regulation, and executive order.So here is at least one self labled Libraterian who would support both the actions of Manning and Snowden.

June 10, 2013 at 4:40 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soF2uI... Here is another Libraterian defending Manning

June 10, 2013 at 4:44 p.m.
jesse said...

If i remember correctly Obama was BIG on transparency when he was campaigning so what's he bitichin about now? He's gittin it in spades!

June 10, 2013 at 4:45 p.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

nowfedup said... "has anyone noted the gov is NOT taking the data, they OBTAIN the data from the huge files, growing daily of civilian companies, that is the danger as they are 100% unregulated."

You know, that is a good point. The feds are also not legally allowed to collect data on minor students, but they have set up a system through Common Core where they intend to bribe the States to collect data and then make it available to the Feds. We have too many lawyers in Washington finding creative ways to work around the intent of laws instead of dealing with issues head on.

Anyway, they intend to start the data collection in K-12 and feverishly build your database for your entire life.

June 10, 2013 at 5 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Fair enough, DJHB. I agree with every word that came out of Ron Paul's mouth in that video. In fact there are several things that I like about libertarianism (who's not for individual freeom?!). But the problem is that you guys seem to think that government itself is inherently evil and you place way too much importance on states' rights. Many of the rights that libertarians claim to be in favor of are those (civil rights, women's rights, and other minority rights) that transcend - or SHOULD transend anway - majority rule based on a state-wide referendum. The sort of individual freedom you speak of is too simplistic and in fact impossible to achieve. There is no way that a country as large and diverse as the U.S. could ever function sanely or civilly without a strong centralized government. The problem with government now is not that it is inherently bad but the power that it wields is rigged in favor of the few at the top and it does not speak for the majority of the people. We are not a democratic republic but an oligarchy. I don't know if it's possible to undo the mess we are in and ever come close to an ideal democratic republic but libertarianism will never be anything more than a radical fringe party with no way of actually applying its core principles. Libertarianism could only exist in a very small, unified society of like-minded people.

June 10, 2013 at 5:09 p.m.
Leaf said...

The generation graduating high school and college now has grown up just assuming that everyone knows everything about them and they have no expectation of privacy. They happily believe that their government and helicopter parents have their best interest at heart and nothing bad will happen to them.

June 10, 2013 at 5:12 p.m.
Leaf said...

Good analysis of Libertarianism, Rickaroo. Just like communism, it sounds good but it's not practical in the real world.

June 10, 2013 at 5:18 p.m.
limric said...

Good video DJHBRAINERD,

Although I have some issues with 'some' of Ron Pauls views, I can't find fault in any from the video.

Republicans did themselves a huge disservice by poo pooing & excluding him from their Reindeer Games. So to speak.

June 10, 2013 at 5:30 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

Nice post Rickaroo....Libertarianism could only exist in a very small, unified society of like-minded people....... A supose this is why Libraterians focus on state and individual rights. 50 choices on how the individual whould like to live as opposed to a 1 size fits all centralized model. Remember we used to have 1 rep in the house for every 10000 citizens then they capped it at the current number so by breeding we have diluted the power of the vote.

June 10, 2013 at 5:31 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

limric...Yes the republican primary was a made for tv event meanwhile down the road was this speech.... well im getting at 502 server error when i try to post youtube of Ron pauls farewell speech from tampa(they might be on to us). I saw it live and it is well worth watching....

June 10, 2013 at 5:41 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Rickaroo said ...

The problem with government now is not that it is inherently bad but the power that it wields is rigged in favor of the few at the top and it does not speak for the majority of the people.


Isn’t that a characteristic of all government in that people with money, power, and/or influence are eventually going to have the greater access to the control levers of government?

Shouldn’t government power, size and activities be kept at a level that performs the basic functions that a citizenry really needs and not just wants, no matter the costs they may or may not have to bear.

At the same time shouldn’t its application be diffused over a greater number of power centers. One size does not fit all as some areas find solutions that may not work in others thus giving citizens more control, over addressing their needs, closer their homes.

This is not to give carte blanche to non-federal governmental bodies to violate the Constitution. However if they do it should be handled thru the courts and legal system. It shouldn’t be an excuse for the executive branch of the federal government to place themselves in charge of these situations and accumulate all power to themselves.

June 10, 2013 at 5:52 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Google CEO Eric Schmidt 2009:

"If you have something that you don't want anyone to know maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place."


Well that’s very reassuring coming from a rich Democrat that has the power, through his company, to designate any one of us as Honey Bun eaters.

June 10, 2013 at 6:29 p.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: "This whole exercise is doing a good job of proving alprova is nothing but a political hack."

You can call me whatever you want, but the bottom line is none of this stuff is going to be stopped. You're either going to have to get used to it or have a heart attack from worrying about it.

Don't blame me for what everyone should have known about for nearly twelve years.

June 10, 2013 at 6:30 p.m.
alprova said...

degage wrote: "Al, You claim no evidence wiretapping of phones has taken place. That is not the point, It seems the government will have carte blanche to do as they please in the future. Can you prove this will not happen?"

Of course I cannot prove it. But then, none of you can prove that it has taken place or will in the future.

So it all boils down to what one believes, doesn't it?

My stance all boils down to a total lack of evidence that any American has not been arrested, prosecuted, and convicted on any evidence that was obtained illegally or improperly or in contradiction of the 4th Amendment.

And in the absence of such proof, I firmly believe that I am more right than those who believe otherwise.

June 10, 2013 at 6:33 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Obama at a fundraiser on Friday:

"I know that there are a few Republicans here in the audience.

If you talk to us, it turns out we're pretty common-sense folks.

"We don't think government can do everything.

We don't think that top-down solutions are the right way to go.

We believe in the free market.

We believe in a light touch(WTH ?!?) when it comes to regulations."


Wait a minute, is this a old campaign speech from Romney?

What is that you say? ... I left a sentence out?


"We don't want to tax ALL businesses out of business,"


Just some?

Now it makes sense.

June 10, 2013 at 6:39 p.m.
alprova said...

Fiarmon wrote: "alprova...until recently most people were not aware of the data mining that was going on."

Whose fault is that? It is clearly spelled out in plain language in section 215 of the Patriot Act. It has been renewed five times by Congress and both Presidents without any changes.

"The patriot act should not have been passed to start with and like most laws and government ventures will only grow beyond the current size and scope."

Even if the Patriot Act were to be revoked, which I seriously doubt it will, data mining will continue to be used to find links to terrorism. Spying by the Government has been going on forever. What makes anyone think for one second that it will stop?

"I repeat there is nothing to be concerned about unless you are talking about something to someone you don't want exposed or talking to a terrorist. However, to me the patriot act is bad legislation that violates the right to privacy and invites abuse."

There is no evidence whatsoever that any abuse has occurred in 12 years. That does not mean that there has been no abuse, because in all likely hood, there was, but who can do a thing to stop it?

Our Government probably has hundreds of secret programs operating without an ounce of knowledge by the public. Y'all are all upset at the revelation of one. I gave up worrying about that kind of stuff years ago. Let anyone listen or watch whatever I do. It's boring, I am not ashamed of a thing I do, and I'm sure that after five minutes, they will seek someone else to spy on.

"Trusting current politicians is a mistake and there is no telling what challenges to the constitution the future holds. It wouldn't take many like Maxine Waters to really muck it up. Unfortunately the possibility of repeal is not likely so be careful who you talk to and how."

Trusting a politician is like trusting an ex-con with your wallet.

If they are not corrupt when they go in, they will be shortly thereafter. It's par for the course. I simply do not worry about that which I have no control or the power to change.

June 10, 2013 at 6:48 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

From Mediaite:

In the days since the public learned of PRISM, the NSA’s massive internet surveillance program, defenders have credited the system with foiling a 2009 terrorist plot. That claim is now falling under intense scrutiny from those who say the program was peripheral at best to the investigation.

Representative Mike Rogers said on Thursday that the program had helped stopped a major terror attack in recent years. Anonymous sources identified that victory to Reuters as the arrest of Najibullah Zazi, who had been plotting to attack the New York City subway station in 2009. The New York Times quoted an anonymous senior intelligence official who credited PRISM’s ability to read Zazi’s emails as instrumental to locating him.

But legal documents from Aziz’s arrest are casting doubts on these claims. A computer seized during an earlier raid gave British authorities and FBI agents access to an email account that Zazi later emailed for a bomb recipe, meaning PRISM’s comprehensive surveillance would have been unnecessary.

June 10, 2013 at 6:59 p.m.
limric said...

Alprova,

Quote: ”but the bottom line is none of this stuff is going to be stopped.”

Point taken. I agree, and is something I addressed yesterday. ”reigning in the spy programs is now impossible short of some sort of popular revolt” - Paraphrased.

Unfortunately you’re right.

Also, quote: ”My stance all boils down to a total lack of evidence that any American has not been arrested, prosecuted, and convicted on any evidence that was obtained illegally or improperly or in contradiction of the 4th Amendment.”

Cheeky cheeky Alprova. Did you unintentionally move your king to E6 in your first move? Or was the wording contrived to give you an out? If the latter, that’s pretty slick and I wonder how many will pick it out.

June 10, 2013 at 7:34 p.m.
alprova said...

JT wrote: "Here is the official certified court filing:"

Honey, that is not a valid court filing. John Doe company suing John Does #1-15? It's a placeholder at best.

Clearly, from reading the lawsuit, the Attorney doesn't have a great deal of experience under his belt.

In two years and two months, they have not been able to discover the names of the parties they intend to sue?

I find it very hard to believe that in two years, that the IRS would not address a situation where any one of its agents were guilty of seizing medical records of people not associated with the person they were targeting and that were protected under HIPAA.

"You can revisit this at your leisure."

If this case is not thrown out of court, as presented, and if names are named, THEN you be sure to bring it back up.

Until then, it is STILL an extremely vague and unsubstantiated charge.

"I share the facts. I can't make you believe them."

What do you think you have linked to? An accusation with no evidence. 60 million medical records?

Do you actually believe that?

Please...get back to me whenever a REAL lawsuit is filed.

June 10, 2013 at 7:39 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

touche limric touche

June 10, 2013 at 7:40 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

what would al awlaki think of this type of unfettered powers. Not the best of examples but then we will never hear his side now will will.....drones coming to a city near you ( for your safety of course)

June 10, 2013 at 7:44 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

I think it was just an error. Alpo is fairly straight on. Wrong, but straight on. The sleight of word is more in your dept., Lim.

June 10, 2013 at 7:44 p.m.
alprova said...

Robert E. Barnes, the Attorney who filed the very vague lawsuit charging that the IRS seized 60 million medical records from a San Diego medical provider, has Chattanooga ties.

He was born here and is a graduate of McCallie and UT Chattanooga.

He's been practicing law in California since 2005.

He is also the Attorney who represented Wesley Snipes and we all know how that one turned out.

June 10, 2013 at 7:59 p.m.
jesse said...

I'd like to know how you go about moving your king on the FIRST move?

And all the way to e6!!!!

June 10, 2013 at 8:02 p.m.
limric said...

That was a met-a-phor - ya big galoot. How about queen to e5? Ohhhkaay?

Yea I know it was a mistake. I was just bustin cause I'm such a dick.

Oh by the way Paintruth, ah don't need no 'depts', I can stil controll my bladder.

LOL - BOING~~~

June 10, 2013 at 8:28 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

limric: you pal around with easy?

June 10, 2013 at 8:47 p.m.
miraweb said...

WH petitions have gone up to pardon Snowden. He has disappeared from his hotel. If he doesn't resurface in good health we may see our first nationwide strike.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/pardon-edward-snowden/Dp03vGYD

June 10, 2013 at 8:48 p.m.
miraweb said...

It shows just how topsy-turvy the world has become when Germany is now planning a serious discussion with the leader of the United States about privacy rights:

German government spokesman Steffen Seibert told reporters on Monday that Chancellor Angela Merkel would question Obama about the National Security Agency program when he's in Berlin on June 18 for his first visit to the German capital as U.S. president. The issue could tarnish a visit that both sides had hoped would reaffirm strong German-American ties.

Germany's Interior Ministry said it had already been in contact with U.S. officials to determine whether there had been any infringement of German citizens' privacy — considered an almost-sacred right in a country with a history of deep privacy infringements under Nazi and East German governments.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/world/article/Merkel-Obama-to-discuss-NSA-surveillance-program-4590750.php

June 10, 2013 at 8:53 p.m.
dude_abides said...

All Plain and no Truth make Jack a dull boy.

June 10, 2013 at 10:25 p.m.
Maximus said...

Mr. Snowden is a true American patriot on the run from Obama's operatives. He has lost everything to expose Obama's use of the NSA to target and track millions of Americans. Bush used the Patriot Act to track Americans communicating with terrorists, saving American lives. Our 4th Amendment rights among many other things have been violated by the Chief Executive of the United States, President Barrack Obama. Impeachment hearings should begin NOW! Call Corker and Alexander and ask for the impeachment of President Obama.

June 10, 2013 at 10:41 p.m.
alprova said...

The Call for Snowden's pardon is astronomical. 25,000 signatures out of how many adults in this nation? That don't sound to me like there are too many people who think the man a hero.

Facebook has raised $8,000 for his legal defense fund.

Edward Snowden clearly did not think this thing through and the more he says, the more he looks as if he is not firing on all eight cylinders. He runs off to Communist China believing it was a safe haven for free speech.

He holds himself out be a whistleblower and some of you agree with that, but for him to have been a true whistleblower, he would have first filed complaints through appropriate channels to his supervisors. What he absolutely has done is to violate his nondisclosure agreement and betrayed his employer.

If he is not now in the hands of the Chinese, who will likely grill him for what he knows of use to them, kill him, and then bury him somewhere, this will end with him taking his own life.

Right now, this very second, while we are discussing it, he's wishing he had put much more thought into his decisions.

June 10, 2013 at 10:44 p.m.
Maximus said...

Alpo you really do need to stop the disability scam and get a damn job. Wal Mart is hiring! Holy Cow you are worshipping Clay The Army Brat from sun up to sun down. Loser.

June 10, 2013 at 10:47 p.m.
dude_abides said...

maximouth! How was the Strut?

June 10, 2013 at 10:55 p.m.
Maximus said...

Snowden is a 29 year old man that grew tired of following an organization corrupted by Obama. No more illegal wire tapping of innocent Americans......Obama in campaign mode. Liar. Obama is a clear and present danger to our Democracy. Snowden, an Obama supporter by the way, grew tired of Obama's spying and has now exposed his corrupt Presidency. CNN and the Democrats are in damage control and trashing Snowden that alone should prompt all of us to call Corker and Alexander's office and demand support of Mr. Snowden and the immediate impeachment hearings for Obama. The tide is turning. The impeachment of Obama followed by our lopsided victories in the mid terms will bring freedom, pride and prosperity back to America! Call tomorrow!

June 10, 2013 at 11 p.m.
Maximus said...

Dude I don't attend those festivals, too many, common, smelly, Democrats. Most anything open to the public is trashy. I prefer private events. I never play public golf courses unless of course we are talking about Pebble Beach which I play at least twice a year. Spyglass is nice too.

June 10, 2013 at 11:06 p.m.
Maximus said...

Snowden is a hero. The NSA may consider YOU an extremist tomorrow. Obama said Friday in one of his few unscripted moments....we did not spy on all Americans just some of them......notice that Obama made no comments today.....hmmmmm......his handlers have shut Barry up. He is now leaving for vacation.......the Espionage Act should be applied to the entire NSA....section 793..... they violated it at Obama's order!

Snowden did the right thing! The Patrick Henry, Nathan Hale, George Washington of our time. Rise up and support Snowden America! Very weak Alpo....blah....blah....errrrrr HR dept. crap....Mr. Snowden violated his employment agreement...........YES HE DID!

June 10, 2013 at 11:18 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Better get used to the smell, maximum underarm. We put the pro in proliferate! Twenty years from now we will have the Social Democrats, the Green Democrats, and the independent Liberaltarian Parties. We are considering taxing ignorance, so you better keep Switzerland on speed dial.

June 10, 2013 at 11:24 p.m.
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