published Thursday, May 9th, 2013

Tea party bitter over Obama golf outing

  • photo
    President Barack Obama and Sen. Bob Corker, R-Tenn., left, talk Monday on the golf course at Andrews Air Force Base.
    Photo by Associated Press /Chattanooga Times Free Press.

Watch out for flying golf clubs: The tea partiers, who can't see beyond the crumbled, spent, bitter leaves in the bottoms of their cups, are teed off.

Mark West, Chattanooga president of the group that makes traditional conservative Republicans look good, is blasting U.S. Sen. Bob Corker for playing golf with President Barack Obama. The game this weekend was a move to take some national problems in hand as true leaders should and move the country beyond partisan gridlock.

In Georgia, Atlanta tea party "Patriots" co-founder Debbie Dooley was equally disgusted with Peach State Republican and U.S. Sen. Saxby Chambliss, who also played golf with Obama.

"I won't be surprised if he gets booed at the Georgia Republican Party state convention," she said.

That pretty much says it all, doesn't it? It's patriotic to be a roadblock. No wonder this country can't balance its budget without shutting the door in the faces of 50 children in the local Head Start program.

No wonder the country can't pass even the most common-sense legislation on gun checks -- which, by the way, 90 percent of Americans support.

Clearly, the holier-than-thou tea party folks don't expect our leaders to lead and reach solutions through mutual compromise. To the bitter leaf party, it's not enough just to have party division: Now, our leaders have to despise each other, too.

Apparently to West and Dooley and their ilk, Congress is just this year's newest reality show.

"Just because they have 'Senator' in front of their names doesn't mean they're entitled to a better understanding of this nation than folks in Tennessee," West told Times Free Press reporter Chris Carroll. "We know there's absolutely no common ground with Obama."

The really funny thing about the tea party temper tantrum is that West and Dooley seemed to view the round of golf as evidence that Obama will bully Corker and Chambliss into supporting immigration overhauls and new taxes.

Anyone who thinks Bob Corker can be bullied is clearly out of touch. Besides, it sounds as though the only bullies in this report are the booing tea partiers.

But more importantly, the American people understand that leadership includes finding ways to have mutual respect and real civil discussion that actually has a result. It's not talk that is just one more sound bite for a party blog or YouTube video.

This country faces serious challenges, and Congress -- especially Republicans -- must get beyond the question of who to boo and who to take to the prom.

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librul said...

Tea Party wackos revel in slinging verbal mud at Obama calling him 'socialist' and 'fascist' in the same sentence - displaying their vast ignorance.

Any corporatist like Obama knows that if you want to 'do business' you have to get out on the golf course. Nothing gets done within the halls of Congress. That's old hat.

Those founders the teabaggers are so fond of quoting, with their tri-corner hats, powdered wigs and 'reasoned debate' leading to 'compromise', just didn't do enough shouting, spitting and obstructing. They were 'old fashioned' to the core what with a desire to work to move their COUNTRY forward rather than to denigrate the popularly elected president at every turn. The will of the majority means nothing to this pitiful little band of miscreants.

The 'government of the people' has become an ongoing three-ring political circus that the entire world sees as brutish and quite horrifying because the American Empire it represents engages in indescriminate murder, torture and subterfuge that just might be directed at them one day. Actually, I think they quite rightly term it 'the great Satan'.

Every day the world is presented with a new pronouncement from these knuckle-draggers that, when examined, just makes more Americans wonder what it's going to take to shut up their idiotic pieholes. When the shooting starts, they should all remember that the majority knows where to find them.

May 9, 2013 at 7:11 a.m.
katielf said...

It was so good to read someone who shares my opinion! Sitting in a hospital waiting room this week 3 strangers to me and each other thought nothing of making idiotic statements about the golf game and Obama, to the point of stating the tea party rhetoric "yeah, and I just know he's a Muslim." No prejudice there!Right!!! Those kind of comments I am sure are created by the tea party and sadly believed. Too bad they let their blindness and ignorance create such disturbing ideas and truly serve no purpose but to spread hate and build roadblocks. This article said it so well.

May 9, 2013 at 7:47 a.m.
gjuster said...

Most people know that I am heavily involved with the Tea Party - I think that Corker playing golf with Obama is great. I don't have any problem with it. (I wish they would have invited me) One day the Media and the people who believe the way the media portray the Tea Party as accurate will finally wake up and understand that the Tea Party is not some monolithic organization. It is independent people with many similar beliefs. I don't have any problem with R and D getting together over dinner - my problem is if they continue to work together to make deals that have contributed to the economic decline of America.

PS - Librul, is that a direct threat from you to anyone who is a member of the Tea Party - Just because they have a different viewpoint than yours? Where the majority can find them sounds like democracy - a very bad form of government. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.

May 9, 2013 at 7:55 a.m.
librul said...

Gjuster - I simply stated facts - for some people facts are threatening. To me, a teabagger with a Glock on his belt or an AR-15 over his shoulder at a political rally is a threat.

Oh, "economic decline" ??? have you checked out the stock market this week? Of course, the "economy" reflected in the obscene profits of the corporate behemoth are entirely different from that of the shuttered storefront in a small town down the street from WalMart - point taken. But in the eyes of globalists, corporatists and capitalists - America is doing quite well.

May 9, 2013 at 8:03 a.m.
gjuster said...

When the Fed stops the money pump, and allows interest rates to rise to where they should be instead of artificially being held down - the stock market will most likely crash. It is not high because of economic performance. Plus, the stock market is not the economy - when it is doing well, as it is now, it is benefiting the rich (mainly). Our economic decline, which has been going on long before Obama was elected is reflected in 16 + trillion in debt, no growth, and unemployment that would be reported at well over 10% if they added all the people that stopped looking for work. If our economy was improving - people would be coming off the food stamp program rather than it growing.

May 9, 2013 at 8:13 a.m.
librul said...

Come on - sure, the American Empire's economy is teetering on the brink of economic collapse - Osama bin Laden's wet dream may yet be realized. But that cannot be laid at Obama's feet. You have to go back to the years post WWII and do some analysis. You have to give mountains of credit to saint Ronnie and Milton Friedman and the deregulated profiteers they unleashed. Heck, Obama is a product of that. That's why he surrounded himself with corporatist crooks like Geitner and now Penny Pritzker. Look at her resume and you will see all the faces of evil that Republican politics has foist on us for forty years.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/obama_did_it_for_the_money_20130507/

No, I am no Obamanista - I regard him as as shady a character as any of the globalist, corporatist, capilatists - I just abhor what the teabaggers and cranks like Rick Perry and Ted "McCarthy" Cruz are doing to my country. Destroying the country to save it is not a prescription for success.

May 9, 2013 at 8:41 a.m.
shen said...

The tea party is only as loud as the rest of you have remained silent. The party claims of speaking to diverse crowd of people is just a smoke screen. It's the behind the scenes meetings that take place before thoe open meetings that shows their true nature. Intolerance.

May 9, 2013 at 11:07 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

gjuster.... I have read many of your comments here and you seem to always articulate your positions in a thoughtful/respectful way and I wanted to say thank you for that. You seem to be a rational person who wants what is best for each of us. But then the paper loves to quote Mr West as a representative of the Tea party so I was wondering if you were a part of the same group. Mr Wests article to the chattanoogan read in part: First, I was troubled to hear the judge, the President and other activists citing “solid scientific evidence” as the reason to arrive at this decision. What was missing though in their reasoning or conclusion was something that should always trump science: ethics or morality. Then Yesterday when referring to the golf match he had this to add: Just because they have 'Senator' in front of their names doesn't mean they're entitled to a better understanding of this nation than folks in Tennessee," West said. "We know there's absolutely no common ground with Obama."http://www.timesfreepress.com/newhttp://www.chattanoogan.com/2013/5/6/250605/Plan-B-How-the-Courts-And-Obama-Molest.aspxs/2013/may/08/senators-golf-game-tees-off-tea-party/?local .... You can read several other dubious quotes in the timesfreepress article from other tea party leaders so I was just wondering your opinion, being a apart of the Tea party, are these quotes part of a platform being developed by the tea party or are these just individual opinions that the Timesfreepress chooses to quote as representative of the group?

May 9, 2013 at 12:09 p.m.
gjuster said...

DJH - Yes I am part of the same group, I am the VP. Mark West is the most well known and the media typically reaches out to him for quotes. I seem to be the back up. There is no platform for the Tea Party - we are not a party, we are a movement. Every Tea Party group is independent, we receive no marching orders from anyone. There may be groups out there that attempt to speak for the whole movement - but they don't. Mark and I agree on many concepts which lie at the core of our belief system - but we disagree on many others. We have backed different candidates for elections (see the 2010 congressional election), I am not religious while he is. But on fiscal matters, we are pretty close, as well as the federal government far out stepping it's purpose. We both believe in a limited federal government and strong state and local governments which can be changed much easier than a federal office, and you can talk to your local official. If you don't like Lamar Alexander, which I don't, good luck getting rid of him. Don't like Fleischmann - same thing.I agree that we have no common ground with this President, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't listen to him "pitch me" on the golf course. Not that I'm going to be invited, but if he's reading this, invite me to Augusta National please. As for the solid science comment - I don't know what article or opinion you are referring to.

I hope I have answered your questions.

May 9, 2013 at 3:13 p.m.
timbo said...

librul....You talk about tea party people being "crazy" and then you say crazy things. To us conservatives, you and some of the rest of you are bizarre. It is no wonder someone like you doesn't like us. I am flattered. If you did like me, I would check myself into Moccasin bend.

This caricature of the Tea Party you and some of these other liberals try to portray just doesn't hold water. Tea Party people are law-abiding, constitution believing, 2nd amendment protecting, good people. I'll just bet if you looked at all of the ills of society and who was responsible for them that Tea Party people would be at the very bottom. Liberals and their supporters would be right on top.

Now, go ahead with your usual insults. That is all you have.

May 9, 2013 at 3:29 p.m.
timbo said...

By the way, I wish that Obama would play golf 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That would make sure that he wouldn't be able to cause any trouble.

May 9, 2013 at 3:31 p.m.
timbo said...

gjuster and aee1049....I saw your comments on Pam Sohn last Sunday. What do you think now with these comments in her column?

"Watch out for flying golf clubs: The tea partiers, who can't see beyond the crumbled, spent, bitter leaves in the bottoms of their cups, are teed off."

"Apparently to West and Dooley and their ilk,..." (ilk is not a flattering word)

"Clearly, the holier-than-thou tea party folks don't expect our leaders to lead and reach solutions through mutual compromise. To the bitter leaf party, it's not enough just to have party division: Now, our leaders have to despise each other, too."

Wow, Harry Austin couldn't have said it better. What..did it take 4 days for her to prove me right. That might be some kind of record. Pam Sohn is Harry in drag.

I love you two...but I can't help myself...I TOLD YOU SO!!

Pam has now been freed...she doesn't even have to pretend anymore that she is not biased.

May 9, 2013 at 3:40 p.m.
Easy123 said...

timboner,

"To us conservatives, you and some of the rest of you are bizarre."

That doesn't help your case. You might want to find a third party to support you instead of relying on people even non-Democrats think are crazy.

"It is no wonder someone like you doesn't like us. I am flattered."

I'm sure you are, but that doesn't help your case either.

"If you did like me, I would check myself into Moccasin bend."

I doubt it.

"This caricature of the Tea Party you and some of these other liberals try to portray just doesn't hold water."

Considering non-Liberals have very similar thoughts about the Tea Party, I'd say that the caricature holds an ocean full of water.

"Tea Party people are law-abiding, constitution believing, 2nd amendment protecting, good people. "

Bullsh!t. There is no way every single Tea Party member has a clean criminal record. The Tea Party only believes in the parts of the Constitution it likes. The 2nd Amendment has nothing to do with background checks. And most of the TeaBaggers I've met could not be labeled as "good" in any setting.

"I'll just bet if you looked at all of the ills of society and who was responsible for them that Tea Party people would be at the very bottom."

I beg to differ.

"Liberals and their supporters would be right on top."

Of course that's what the crazy TeaBagger would say. You aren't proving anything.

"Now, go ahead with your usual insults. That is all you have."

You do realize your entire post was an insult to liberals, right? All YOU have are your usual insults, you dolt.

"That would make sure that he wouldn't be able to cause any trouble."

See what I mean? Your psychosis has been duly noted, again.

May 9, 2013 at 3:46 p.m.
timbo said...

On more thing Pam....Corker is a suck-up and political chameleon. I have written many times that when the wind changed, he would turn on conservatives. We don't need "compromise" right now. We need to decide on a definite direction and these invertebrate Republicans aren't the ones to do it.

Compromise to a Democrat is "agree with me" or "I will promise you "cuts" in the future if you give me tax increases now." I think compromise would be to take care of the deficit first.

You see, this "compromise" you seek is dependent upon your prospective. To a liberal like yourself, it is spelled "compromise" but it means "give in to me."

May 9, 2013 at 3:48 p.m.
Easy123 said...

timboner,

Compromise to a Republican is "agree with me" or "I will promise you "increases" in the future if you give me tax cuts now." I think compromise would be to take care of the deficit first.

You see, this "compromise" you seek is dependent upon your prospective. To a conservative like yourself, it is spelled "compromise" but it means "give in to me."

Funny how that worked.

May 9, 2013 at 3:50 p.m.
timbo said...

Liberals are easily insulted..ever hear of political correctness.

May 9, 2013 at 3:51 p.m.
Easy123 said...

timboner,

"Liberals are easily insulted..ever hear of political correctness."

Liberals aren't insulted half as easily as conservatives. Case in point: YOU! You stay butthurt about anything and everything.

May 9, 2013 at 3:54 p.m.
timbo said...

Buzz...buzz...buzz...(no typo today) Is that a blood sucking mosquito I hear?

May 9, 2013 at 3:58 p.m.
timbo said...

shen...all your e-mails are intolerant. How can you accuse anyone else of the same thing?

May 9, 2013 at 4 p.m.
Easy123 said...

Timboner,

"Buzz...buzz...buzz...(no typo today) Is that a blood sucking mosquito I hear?"

I guess it could be if you can hear the word "buzz" three times after you type it. You're the one typing that onomatopoeia, thus, you must be the "blood sucking mosquito".

LMFAO!

May 9, 2013 at 4:18 p.m.
shen said...

To better understand the true face of the tea party and what the party is really about on a local level, you'd have to listen to and educate yourselves of their true motives on a national one. Certain individuals are just good at playing both sides of the fence. The term: chameleon comes to mind:

(1.)lizard that changes color: a tree-dwelling lizard with long thin legs, a strong curled tail, a long sticky tongue, and the ability to change color.

(2.)somebody who is changeable: somebody who frequently and rapidly changes personality or appearance

hint: If some stranger walks up to you and punches you in the face for no reason, believe them. That's who that person is. That's their true nature and character. It doesn't matter if that same individual walks up to you a day later with a smile and pretend concern that someone gave you a black eye, bruised face and busted lip.

Remember, it was the tea party that inspired a lot of the hate groups to come out into the open around the nation during the presidential campaign cycle. Even locally, some openly spewed their bigotry and intolerance on this and other forums. Their playing otherwise now shouldn't fool anyone.

May 9, 2013 at 5:46 p.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

gjuster...http://www.chattanoogan.com/2013/5/6/250605/Plan-B-How-the-Courts-And-Obama-Molest.aspx.... this is the article i was referencing with the science comment. it also contained a few more such as....... Ultimately, the government is asserting that its authority trumps parental rights. This isn’t the first decision to reflect this attitude, but perhaps it is one of the more significant and far-reaching ones.....Even worse, you no longer even have the right to know that your daughter might have been raped, given that a 15-year-old girl is a victim of statutory rape if she finds herself considering Plan B.......So, while the court, federal agencies and our Activist-in-Chief President may assert “solid scientific evidence” as the reason for their decision, I would assert that what has been lost in the shuffle has been the morality, the double standard, and ultimately the assault on parental rights. .....I do not believe that these type comments help the groups cause. Seems like redmeat to any who would demean your group as a whole. I thank you for taking the time to respond and your answer was spot on. I too would like to see action at a local level from a physical standpoint but when one starts adding judeo cristian values as a prerequisite, at the expence of sientific reasoning, it becomes difficult to differenciate the tea party from a rebranded silent majority.

May 9, 2013 at 10:28 p.m.
wethepeople said...

Given I am the one that is quoted several times in this article (Mark West), I felt I should respond and fill in some of the missing blanks. More than likely, most of the critics on this page have never been interviewed by a reporter. So they probably don't realize that an excerpt here and a partial thought there does not frequently reflect the entire message that was being communicated during a 10 minute conversation. So let me set the record straight.

Yes, I was critical of Corker and Obama meeting.

But am I bitter? No.

Am I teed off? No.

Are we throwing tantrums? Ha! That's funny to even read the charge.

Here's what concerns me and was communicated in the entire context of my discussion with Chris Carroll. I shared with Mr. Carroll that Barack Obama is, in my view, the most radical President our nation has ever known. I could spend the next week recounting the ways in which he is a radical. But I'll likely not convince many of you of that fact so suffice to say that this is merely my opinion... as well as that of millions of other Americans.

This perspective was shared with the reporter. And based on that perspective, it is my firm view that the beliefs, values and policies of a radical are seldom if ever changed.

If Corker believes that playing golf with Obama will result in some momentous break through with the likes of this President I would suggest he is sorely mistaken. There is nothing -- "nada" -- in Obama's track record that would indicate he is willing to compromise on any issue of any significance. He never has, and he never will. He is an ideologue at best, and a dangerous man at worst.

Let me pose a question. Why didn't Obama ask Senator Cruz or Senator Paul to play golf with him? These two men represent the greatest threat and challenge to Obama's agenda in the Senate. I would contend it is because Obama recognizes he has zero chance of either of them endorsing his radical agenda.

Whether it's schmoozing Corker at a White House dinner or enticing him to a round of golf, Obama sees Corker as an easy target. And Obama's wining, dining (and golfing) appears to be paying off.

Corker fancies himself a conservative, or at least he alleges this to the voters, yet his record reveals a different picture. (Just as Lamar Alexander does, but that's also a different story....)

As far as the allegation that tea partiers believe it's patriotic to be a roadblock, actually, I take that as a compliment. When someone seeks to steal and destroy, any efforts to halt or stifle his efforts is typically viewed as positive. So when it comes to Obama specifically, and Congress in general, spending $1 Trillion annually more than they have, that can only be called stealing -- from our future generations. Pure and simple. So keeping this man and his cronies (and Republicans who enable his agenda) from spending dollars we don't have is patriotic in my view.

May 9, 2013 at 10:40 p.m.
wethepeople said...

Part 2:

No doubt some will read what I've said and suggest that perhaps I'm the radical. That's a regular accusation from those who have never spent any time with a self-professed tea partier. They simply regurgitate the talking points of the media or other radicals (just as the writer of this opinion piece has.) So let me share a few of my "radical" beliefs:

I believe the federal government should live within its means.

I believe spending $1 trillion more per year than a government takes in is tantamount to a crime.

I believe that Republicans and Democrats are both to blame for much of the problem we have today.

I believe that limited government is better than growing, expansive government. (Note I did not say no government.)

I believe our US Constitution is the supreme law of the land and our courts and elected officials should honor and follow this document rather than assailing it at every turn.

I believe in the free enterprise system. While not perfect, it is the best system ever known to man for creating individual prosperity and freedom.

I believe that life is sacred from conception to natural death. And what God has created man should not destroy.

I believe that marriage is between one man and one woman - a definition that has served not only our nation but our world well since the beginning of time.

I believe our nation was founded upon traditional Judeo-Christian values. As we distance ourselves from those values, we invite the moral, spiritual and fiscal decay of our nation that we are seeing today.

Now if these ideas and values are radical or extreme, then I plead guilty!

Now, care to share some "sweet" tea with me? It's my favorite!

PS. And a note about my friend and fellow tea partier Gregg Juster. Given Gregg is a former pro golfer, his endorsement of Corker playing golf with Obama is suspect! Ha! :)

May 9, 2013 at 10:41 p.m.
gjuster said...

Mark -

A very well written response that I believe has little chance of changing minds. When the Tea Party is called a hate group for believing in individual liberty by the media, and OWS as a peaceful and responsible group - this country has nowhere to go but down. I don't know why the Tea Party philosophy of individual freedom, limited government, and economic responsibility is so frightening to them. We are called racists because we oppose Obama. We don't care what color he is - we care what his beliefs and policies are, and they are opposite of ours. The Tea Party was responsible for getting several black and latino's elected over the past 4 years. The Tea Party supported Herman Cain for President. Perhaps what scares them is that most of us are not from the ruling class and they are afraid for their power. Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Mike Lee, Alan West are a few of the new wave that are not bowing down to the old guard like McCain and Alexander or the media. This same old guard that has put this country into so much trouble. The name calling is all they have in their arsenal.

May 10, 2013 at 6:37 a.m.
squatch6 said...

This may surprise you folks that do not have a clue about what the TEA Parties stand for in general.At the same time some in this forum may see what the media did not tell you about the occupy groups. Recorded truth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtIfC1...

May 10, 2013 at 6:56 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

There are several things the Tea Party espouses that I agree with. (Although in the economic area I'd like them to take a stronger stance on limiting corporate power; the list seems Polly-Annish in light of reality) and I'd like to see a statement regarding military overuse in other nations' affairs.

Here is where I start having difficulty:

I believe that life is sacred from conception to natural death. And what God has created man should not destroy.

You set yourself up with this statement to on principle be opposed to the death penalty and many forms of contraception.

I believe that marriage is between one man and one woman - a definition that has served not only our nation but our world well since the beginning of time.

The "beginning of time"? "Marriage" has taken many, many forms over the centuries, including polygamy, wife as "property", arranged marriages between children, etc. Even the Bible described marriages lots of different ways.

I believe our nation was founded upon traditional Judeo-Christian values.

Our founding fathers were mostly Christian, our values were hardly complete at the time of the founding, as citizenship and freedom were denied to all except landed white men. But our country was founded on the idea of freedom, and improved application of the constitution has brought that freedom to almost all. But religious freedom is a part of that, and that freedom extends to everyone, including those that are not of the Judeo-Christian stripe.

As we distance ourselves from those values, we invite the moral, spiritual and fiscal decay of our nation that we are seeing today.

We are not seeing moral or spiritual decay because we are "distancing" ourselves from the values described. We are improving as a nation; the illusion of moral and spiritual decay comes from our ability to see and hear much more than we used to. The cultural history of this nation that most of us know was written by white men; the problems we see today were always with us but worse as they were widespread and there was no dialogue about solutions and no awareness. We are far more aware, far more proactive and have far better tools to address the problems in our society. We never had a "Father Knows Best" America except on TV.

The only people who think our country is in social decay are those that once had a total monopoly over our society and were completely unaware and unconcerned about anyone else. The misplaced outrage is telling.

May 10, 2013 at 6:59 a.m.
librul said...

Calm down now, Mr. West. There, there - the OWS radicals aren't out to get you. You can put down your poster with Mr. Obama painted up with a Hitler mustache labeled "Socialism Kills!" We know how committed you are to preservation of innocent life and traditional Judeo-Christian values but we wonder why nothing was said about how the founders were mostly deists, not christians and nothing about corporate greed and philandering Republican politicians and indescriminate drone warfare killing babies, and the decline of virtually every life system on Earth resulting from unbridled "free enterprise"; and how two-faced, radical pee party politicians are determined to ossify and destroy our government while saying they love America. Come on, let's get down off the lunch table and beck into your padded cell, it's time for your meds - here's your Bible; the TV's been tuned to Fox and Glenn Beck is about to come on. Everything will be OK.

May 10, 2013 at 7:05 a.m.
dao1980 said...

It seems the Tea Party would be a fairly solid organization if it weren't run by churchies yearning for fairyland whilst "hollerin" broken and incomplete ideas on how to improve reality land.

I for one don't trust anybody who's "morals" aren't up to date with our cultures current folkways and mores. Nor anyone who does the "right thing" while motivated by a punishment/reward system.

Stable, practical, and functional logic rarely lasts long enough to produce positive results in either mind or action when belief in magic spirits and miracles from the sky can distract fully developed adults from the realities that lay before them.

May 10, 2013 at 7:27 a.m.
DJHBRAINERD said...

gjuster.......I don't know why the Tea Party philosophy of individual freedom, limited government, and economic responsibility is so frightening to them.......mwest.....I believe that life is sacred from conception to natural death. And what God has created man should not destroy.

I believe that marriage is between one man and one woman - a definition that has served not only our nation but our world well since the beginning of time.

I believe our nation was founded upon traditional Judeo-Christian values. As we distance ourselves from those values, we invite the moral, spiritual and fiscal decay of our nation that we are seeing today...... These comments seem to run counter to the "philosophy of individual freedom" you are suggesting. I will say that I recognize these as Mr West's personal opinion but as the go to guy and the voice of the movement it reflects a sence of hypocracy to rant about personal choices then deny those choices to the individual. Other than social issues your movement seems a lot like the libraterian one. In fact when I read your sentence I thought that was were we were going. Is there no way to let people make thier own personal choices (limited government) and stick with the financial issues. People are starting to realise that the system is rigged , that there are not many ways to get ahead left and our current monetary policies are not sustaionable. But these same people get turned away when they read all the ways they are not worthy socially because they are not judeo christian or not married with children and so forth. Good luck to you and your cause Mr Juster and thank you for your time

May 10, 2013 at 7:34 a.m.
shen said...

The tea party mission statement and what they speak do not match their actions and core beliefs. Again, if you want to get a full understanding of their truest core belief system you'll have take note on a national level. Unfortunately, far too many Chattanoogans only keep up to date with happenings and what's said in Chattanooga. Leaving much of their understanding limited, which makes them more vulnerable and easily duped.

Tea Party speaketh with forked tongues. Their philosophy (written and spoken) does not match their actions.

Reminders of the story of the girl walking along the path who was tricked into picking up the snake who promised not to bite her. The snake, being a snake, did what snakes do. It bit her, and reminded her: you know me by my nature.

May 10, 2013 at 9:30 a.m.
gjuster said...

Shen - Please back up your allegations.

May 10, 2013 at 9:39 a.m.
shen said...

What allegations gjuster? The story of the snake? :)

May 10, 2013 at 9:57 a.m.
gjuster said...

The forked tongue and philosophy comment

May 10, 2013 at 10:10 a.m.
timbo said...

lkeithlu and daO1980....I think you point is valid that a lot of Tea Party members have pushed their religion on the rest of us. A good description of what it is supposed to be is in Wikipedia. "The Tea Party movement is an American political movement that advocates strict adherence to the United States Constitution, reducing U.S. government spending and taxes, and reduction of the U.S. national debt and federal budget deficit." It was not founded to push a social agenda or be involved in those things in any way.

It has been subverted some what from it's populist/libertarian philosophy by traditional Republicans who want to control the Tea Party. No one hates the Tea Party more than traditional Republicans.

Mark West is a good man who has done a good job but sometimes either he, or the people listening to him, confuse his personal beliefs with the Tea Party basic concepts. His religious views are his and I hope, are not the views of most Tea Party members. If it is a division of the Republican party there is no need for the Tea Party.

I am a personal rights fanatic. I think the government and society in general are so powerful that if not for the Bill of Rights, we would not be much better than other countries. I don't care who you marry, what you do with your body, what drugs you take, who you have sex with, or anything else that is NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

That is a libertarian view of life that I think a lot of liberals and conservatives agree on. I also think that there is a huge amount of democrats who agree with the fiscal policies espoused by the Tea Party and don't want to be associated with it because of the social policies that are supported by a large part of the Tea Party, especially the leaders.

I am not associated with the Tea Party for that very reason. I am not the only one, there are millions of people who feel the same as I do that the Tea Party is inadvertently alienating.

People like shen and librul are just socialists and give that line all the time.

May 10, 2013 at 11:02 a.m.
daytonsdarwin said...

I find it amusing that many who made their fortunes using government (taxpayer) money in nursing homes, defense contracts, Section 8 housing, and crony capitalism are the same ones who now decry government intervention in the marketplace.

Many of these people are the uber-republicans and Tea Partiers. While demanding government stay out of people's lives, it was OK as long as they were getting rich.

Some of these same cons are now attempting to use their religious dogma as license to deny freedom to others and would gladly use the government's force of arms to do so.

Seems that hypocrisy is alive and well everywhere.

May 10, 2013 at 11:34 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

Gjuster and WTP, as I read your list of Tea Party principles I can almost hear Lee Greenwood singing "Proud to be an American" in the background - practically dripping with syrupy sentimentality. On the surface your core beliefs sound so rational and definitively American that you can't understand how any true American could find fault with them. But therein lies the rub: they are merely on the surface. They have nothing whatsoever to do with justice and fairness for the common person but instead heavily favor the empowerment of rich old white men and harken back to a time that never really existed (like lkeithlu said, we never had a "Father Knows Best" America). Yet you seem to have it in your heads that we have veered off course from some imaginary bissful era. We did indeed have a WASP-ish America once upon a time, that was advantageous for rich old white men, and that seems to be the America you want to drag us back to.

You have it in your heads that unregulated or minimally regulated big business will mean freedom for everyone but those are two freedoms that any sane person can see do not go hand in hand. The less big business is regulated, the more it is empowered, and the more enslaved to it we become. We learned the lessons we should have learned from the Gilded Age and we instituted safeguards against the runaway greed and tunnel vision of corporations, but you TPers seem to think that those days of the robber barons were our glory days. But our real glory days - economically, at least - were the days after WW2 and into the 70s, when the policies of the New Deal were strongly in place, taxes were sufficient to generate substantial revenue, and the middle class was stronger and more prosperous than it had ever been.

You claim to be for limited government and a strict adherence to the Constitution and emphasize that by limited, you don't mean NO government - but the only ways you accept government is when it's in complete agreement with your narrow beliefs. And those beliefs have nothing to do with individual freedom and justice but for more and more empowerment of big business and the rich to make even more money in ways that do not contribute to the general wellbeing of the nation. You Teabaggers and libertarians alike seem to think in terms of a me-centered America and never in terms of a we-centered America. I'm not sure whose vision of America you are adhering to when you think that this is a country founded on the principle of "what's in it for me and to hell with anybody else."

May 10, 2013 at 12:44 p.m.
gjuster said...

Rickaroo -

Perhaps you should attend a few TO meetings and talk to the people that attend - it would give you some actual knowledge of what we are for. I have never met anyone at a meeting that believes that the big corporations and government should be working together hand in hand. That's economic fascism. I personally believe that these giant companies are ruining America by driving small business under. Many of the regulations we face are being pushed by big business to make it difficult for small companies. Regulations are necessary, but have gone too far. If you owned a business, you would understand. My narrow beliefs are that individuals should be free to make their own choices as long as they are not infringing on my neighbor. Here's an example. I am for non smoking in public buildings - I am against requiring private businesses to not allow smoking in their place of business. I believe seat belts are a good idea to wear, I am against requiring them to be worn. I am in favor of an insurance company making a policy that if you are not wearing a seat belt, you will not be covered - I have the choice then.

As to the glory days of America's economy after WW2 - people tend to forget that all the world's economies were destroyed, except for America. There was little competition for our goods and services, and we profited from helping rebuild the infrastructure of those countries.

As for wanting government to run according to my viewpoint - of course, how is that different from you wanting government to run by yours? How it's being done for a lot of years (well before this administration) hasn't worked out too well.

May 10, 2013 at 1:34 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Gjuster, what you call individual freedom is more along the lines of anarchy. If all people were relatively like-minded and shared similar goals and values, then it might be reasonable to expect that people would behave in ways that we could all accept. But even then, to expect people to do the right thing, with only minimal consequences if they don't, is unrealistic.

Your examples of smoking and seat belt laws are two that you teabaggers and libertarians always like to use to make your case, but those are actually two laws that serve a good purpose. Smoking has been scientifically proven to cause cancer and even second-hand smoke is significantly injurious to one's health. Our right to clean air trumps someone's right to pollute it just so that they can indulge their habit or pleasure of smoking, even in a private business establishment. A private business is owned by an individual, and that individual has certain rights, yes, but he/she has agreed to set up shop in the open market and that market is open to the entire public. That owner must abide by certain laws and regulations that benefit the public at large. As long as no customer is doing anything illegal or offensive, then that customer must be served and shouldn't have to endure second-hand smoke against their will. Smoking is an offensive habit to many, if not most, people, and the right to breathe clean air in business establishments should take precedence over someone's "right" to smoke. A person's home is the only place that one should still maintain the right to smoke or allow smoking for others, where it is not open to the public for commerce.

As for seat belts laws, they do more than just reduce the cost of insurance claims, they have been proven to save lives and reduce the severity of injuries. Even in spite of such evidence people continue to act stupidly and irrationally and refuse to wear them, in the name of individual freedom. Your suggestion that insurance companies be able to refuse coverage to anyone not wearing a seat belt would serve no practical purpose at all, neither saving lives nor reducing the cost of the injuries. If the insurance company does not cover the inured person, he/she would still be in need of critical care. It would just be another exorbitant expense and burden that hospitals already have when uninsured people are taken to the ER. It would be a cost that the tax-payer and government would incur in the end. Seat belt laws are a minimal intrusion into personal freedom. The punishment for not wearing one is basically a slap on the wrist, but, if involved in a car accident, the benefit from wearing one can be the difference between life and death.

May 10, 2013 at 3:53 p.m.
shen said...

gjuster said... The forked tongue and philosophy comment

All I have to say, gjust: I receive emails daily from various tea party groups and tea party supporters who believe I'm a t-party member. I know their base, their real philosophy, and what their core beliefs are. The only thing that's changed is strategy.*

May 10, 2013 at 3:55 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Gjuster, continued...

If what you say about big business and government working hand in hand is true then we would be of the same accord there. But you say one thing and mean something else. Why do so many teabaggers keep licking the boots of the top 1%, of people like the Koch brothers and big oil and big Pharma and refuse to take a stand for the little person, who is being royally screwed by them? I haven't met a TPer yet who supports raising the minimum wage to a decent living standard (government intrusion, yes?). You think that corporations should have the "right" to pay as little as they can get away with. That might be okay if there were ample employers and plentiful jobs that paid a decent wage. But the norm in this country for unskilled labor is $7.25 - $8/hr. Nobody can live on that, yet you think it's more important that the corporation or business owner have the "freedom" to pay insufficient wages. What you call individual freedom is a joke. If you really believed what you said about corporations you would have joined in with the OWS movement, not derided it, like every teabagger in fact did.

May 10, 2013 at 3:56 p.m.
gjuster said...

Rickaroo - I will be happy to answer you as soon as you stop using a derogatory term for me. If you can't do that, we have nothing to talk about.

May 10, 2013 at 5:03 p.m.
joneses said...

I support the Tea Party platform. I also wish o'bastard would play golf everyday all day because everything he touches turns to sh!t when he is occupying the White House.

May 10, 2013 at 7:18 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Gjuster, I'm not really interested in anything you have to say anyway. It's obvious to me that you dissemble and whitewash what the Tea Party really stands for. You try to make it appear that it is just a patriotic group of good old-fashioned Americans who want nothing more than individual freedom, fiscal responsibility, and limited government, and you can't understand why everybody doesn't love you. The candidates the Tea Party has endorsed have been the most screwball, backward, and unintelligent ones ever to come on the scene and while most people see them for what they are - idiots - you praise them for their what you claim is their fresh perspective and for "not bowing down to the old guard." Herman Cain? Alan West? My god, how brain-dead does one have to be take yahoos like them seriously?

BTW, just because you think yourself to be above name calling doesn't make what you say any more intelligent or more truthful than those who happen to indulge in casting a few aspersions in their comments.

May 10, 2013 at 8:48 p.m.
gjuster said...

Rickaroo - you win - I can't compete with a name calling person who doesn't even have the guts to use his own name, with "facts" that are wrong. No sense in my even trying.

May 11, 2013 at 8:17 a.m.
timbo said...

gjuster..... You're right, they had behind Made up names and take pot shots from a distance. These cowards say It is because of us violent conservative types might attack them. That would be more rare than a Bigfoot sighting. The real reason is there ashamed of their tone and of their opinions. They don't want their friends, family, or coworkers to see just how nasty they really are.

I know, maybe they can call the IRS and get them to investigate you and Mark West like their buddy Obama did. I guess that was just paranoia too.

Tim Price

May 11, 2013 at 8:44 a.m.
timbo said...

This is my last post on these opinion pages. All of this electronic fussing and fighting is not productive. All these posts have turned into is an insult contest.

Really no one cares what Pam Sohn thinks,

or what Drew Johnson thinks about national issues. They might have a little influence locally but their national opinions mean nothing.... And change nothing.

The same is true of all of us. We are all just bloviating, not changing any minds, and it's all about ego and a delusion of influence. Most of you hide behind made-up names in order to be as nasty as you can without anyone else knowing Who you are. It is wrong to print an opinion without a name.

This country is headed downhill at a fast pace. I'm not gonna waste anymore of my time to convince someone that is a fact.

So, Tim Price, aka timbo Is out of here.

May 11, 2013 at 11:31 a.m.
Rickaroo said...

Gjuster, my name is Rick Armstrong. I have said my full name before. I don't think that anybody is necessarily hiding behind a name on here. Using screen names on forums like this is just part of the deal, you know that. I find it interesting that you are getting your tightie-whities in such a wad over my name calling. I was reading some of the earlier posts here and I noticed that librul, for instance, indulged in some rather colorful name calling, such as Tea Party wackos, teabaggers, pitiful little band of miscreants, knuckle draggers, idiotic pieholes, two-faced radical pee-party politicians (good one, librul, I like that one), yet you said nothing then and in fact continued to respond. So why you take offense at my rather mild name calling by comparison is a mystery to me. But it doesn't matter, because, like I said, I'm not really interested in the BS that you try to pass off as truth anyway.

You say that my facts are wrong but what you claim to be "facts" is nothing more than your opinion, and your opinions are based on your apparent inability to be aware of how destructive, backward, and narrow minded your teabagging brand of conservatism is. You like to think that you and your "pitiful little band of miscreants" (I'm borrowing from you, librul; that's another good one) are the real Americans and anyone who doesn't espouse your narrow view of conservatism is un-American by default. Your attempts to confer logic and a semblance of sanity to what the Tea Party stands for is a pretty good attempt at white-washing the truth but anybody with any common sense at all sees the Tea Party for the band of clowns it really is. The half-witted and hateful candidates that the TP has endorsed the past few years reveal everything there is to know about what you really stand for. From Michelle Bachmann to Allen West to Paul Broun to Herman Cain to Ted Cruz, to Todd Akin, and on and on and on, you teabaggers have done nothing but try to drag us back into the Dark Ages with your destructive policies and attempts at enacting your regressive legislation.

May 11, 2013 at 12:47 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

Timbo, regarding what you say here: "The real reason is there (sic) ashamed of their tone and of their opinions. They don't want their friends, family, or coworkers to see just how nasty they really are." That's amusing. Where do you come up with such nonsense? I am not the least bit ashamed of anything that I opine or that I write. What I think and write is who I am and I am not ashamed of me and what I represent. I am fully aware that my opinion, like yours and everybody else's, is basically just that - an opinion - and that in the end we are all just made up of an assortment of opinions that we like to think are the right ones. I hope that at least some small part of what I think is aligned with some deep-seated eternal truth, but even if I might be proven completely wrong in the end, I nonetheless will have made the attempt to state my case and my beliefs as best I can with the knowledge I had at hand.

Rick Armstrong

May 11, 2013 at 1:26 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

You wingnuts feigning indignation - that's really cute. JonRoss you say that you regret that you "lowered" your standards but your standards were already in the gutter as far as I'm concerned. I regretted most everything you had to say, too. It was a sad waste of time reading it. Bye.

May 11, 2013 at 1:43 p.m.
lkeithlu said...

I have lowered myself to those standards and I regret it.

Somehow I doubt that very much. You are one of the most negative people I have ever encountered on this or any other forum.

I too am exiting the TFP forums.

I would be willing to bet you'll be here tomorrow, if not sooner.

May 11, 2013 at 1:53 p.m.
Rickaroo said...

One final thought and then I'm going to shut up for today:

I imagine that most of you have seen the movie, "Lincoln," with Daniel Day Lewis? There is a scene towards the end where Tommy Lee Jones's character, Thaddeus Stevens, the Republican congressional leader and staunch abolitionist, in his oration, lets loose with a litany of insults and derogatory names for his antagonists. Of course, there was a lot of poetic license taken in the making of the movie, but that particular scene was not a stretch by any means. There really was a lot of name-calling and mud-slinging that took place in those days. Political cartoons and debates were also much more vicious and personal than they are today. You people who are making such a fuss, claiming to be so offended by name calling and insults are showing what ninnies you are. Politics is by nature dirty and personal. I appreciate people calling a spade a spade and making it clear exactly what side of the fence they stand on rather than feigning politeness, civility, and decorum, all the while seething with hatred for those on the other side. I detest teaparty conservatism as much as you teabaggers detest liberalism and I'm not going to pretend that I want to make nice and sit down and have a beer with you teabaggers.

I think that we are at a critical crossroads. We can either come to fruition as a nation, with a NEW New Deal for the 21st century, with liberty and justice for ALL, or we can continue on this road to ruin that Reagan, Bush et al, and their brand of corporatism/fascism/crony capitalism have taken us down. IMO we are headed for either outright revolution, or more likely (since most people are too apathetic to bother to take to the streets) economic ruin, which will engender its own form of revolution.

I never flag anyone on this forum and I never bat an eyelash when someone lets loose with an insult or a name, whether it's directed at me personally or at someone who shares my beliefs. This is a political forum, after all, and it is only natural for it to get down and dirty sometimes. I can, and often do, write comments that are devoid of name calling but I'm sure I will continue to let loose with some insulting names from time to time. Name calling can be childish and destructive, yes, at least if one does not accompany it with sound reasoning; but truth is not necessarily limited to sterilized, church-lady-ish, profane-free commentary either.

To you people who are taking your exits because you believe this forum to be a cesspool of useless bickering, I say good riddance. Personally I'm much more insulted by willful ignorance and closed-minded, self-righteous arrogance than I am by name calling. Having said that, I realize that there are many on here who think that I in my liberalism epitomize the very things that they detest so much. So be it. Let the debates, the struggle, the battles continue. Ain't it grand!

May 11, 2013 at 4:42 p.m.
magenta said...

TRUST ME!! They'll all slither away and return reincarnated under a different screen name. They think all the nastiness, bigotry and hate they openly spewed will disappear if they stop posting for a while. What they don't realize is once they hit that enter button what they've said is permanent, and will never go away.

May 11, 2013 at 5:17 p.m.
gjuster said...

Rickaroo - Thank you for having the chutzpah to put your name on your opinions - most people here don't, and I think if they did, they're tone would change. I can only speak for the overwhelming opinions of the people in the Chattanooga Tea Party. We are adamantly opposed to economic fascism of Reagan, Bush, and Obama (who I think may be the worst of the bunch.) And just like you, I believe the country would be better off following what I think important. As for not calling out librul - he and I weren't talking. My goal is to get the truth out about the Tea Party - the media will never print it. As for dirty politics - I agree, compared to the old days, it is very tame now. I don't want a nanny state that takes care of us from cradle to grave - I want people to be able to fail - especially the big corporations (GN and others) and banks that robbed Americans of their hard earned money. I personaly have had failures in my life, but was fortunate to be able to get up and back on my feet again. I believe that small business is the engine of America, but unfortunately that engine is going away to the multi national corporations that are doing there best to rid themselves of the competition all with the help of the federal government.

May 11, 2013 at 5:20 p.m.
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