published Wednesday, September 11th, 2013

Assad

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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fairmon said...

How many times was I used in the presidents speech? I ask congress to vote on the issue then I ask congress to not vote on the issue. I am not waffling, I said maybe and that is final. A yes vote for this president would be like giving a kid a can full of gas and matches to play with. Contradictions galore and no explanation of how the threat to the U.S. increases if there is no small attack. Wait, small attack was Kerry's words the president said we don't do pinpricks. Bring them together prez with comments like my militaristic friends on the right and my human rights friends on the left.

BTW...did you notice the change in make up artist? The eye brows were a lot thicker and darker and the hair less gray.

September 11, 2013 at 2:49 a.m.
fairmon said...

Putin wins all around. More control in the region and admiration of the world. The possible Syrian reaction has nothing to do with a U.S. threat as some suggest. Putin can play Obama like a fine fiddle. We are learning what was meant when the open mike picked up the words "tell Latimer I will have more flexibility after the election".

September 11, 2013 at 2:55 a.m.
Maximus said...

Obama administration Middle East foreign policy.......whose on first? Bush 41 and 43 administration Middle East foreign policy.......kick ass.

Never forget. God bless the U.S.A. the greatest force for peace and freedom in the world.

September 11, 2013 at 5:15 a.m.
fairmon said...

Financial news...The Bank of England is moving closer to ditching paper pounds and switching to plastic banknotes. Several countries have already made this change. The reason given is the lower cost of printing and more difficult to counterfeit.

No doubt the U.S. will follow. A move closer to monopoly game money as the debt rises and printing more money continues. Regardless of the material on which printed The move away from the U.S. dollar as the world's reserve currency continues and will be a rude awakening for many.

September 11, 2013 at 5:36 a.m.
facyspacy said...

You have two choices today.... Remember those who passed last year and twelve years ago or you can can listen to Hillary Clinton,"what difference does it make?"

September 11, 2013 at 5:58 a.m.
degage said...

Ike, Saw pictures of your boat, it is awesome. The fact that you took a hull and built it is remarkable. You and your husband must be so proud of her. Have you thought of writing a book about the adventure of building it and the launching of it, it would make great read.

September 11, 2013 at 6:47 a.m.
AndrewLohr said...

Syria again? Nothing going on here or in North Korea?

It's OK for the Syrian opposition to practice genocide against the Christians there, but not OK for Assad to use gas? 100,000 dead are OK, but 1500 dead by gas are not? 2,000,000 dead by a regime-caused famine in North Korea, which definitely has nukes, are OK, but 1/1000th that many, having been gassed in Syria, are not? Syria threatens us more than North Korea exactly how?

NO to any intervention not aimed at setting us a true human rights regime.

September 11, 2013 at 7:02 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Thanks degage! But we didn't "take a hull". He built it from the keel up from flat plates of steel. He even had to build the cradle first. Cool, huh? She has a facebook page that chronicles her first year in the water (from her own point of view) and I may turn that into a book.

September 11, 2013 at 7:43 a.m.
degage said...

Ike, didn't know, that makes it even more remarkable! I will have to go to that facebook page.

September 11, 2013 at 7:49 a.m.
librul said...

Hey Mad Max - while you're humming god bless 'murica and extolling the virtues of "kicking ass" a la los bushistas, you should remember a couple of things...

"Washington has been at war for 12 years. According to experts such as Joseph Stiglitz and Linda Bilmes, these wars have cost Americans approximately $6 trillion, enough to keep Social Security and Medicare sound for years. All there is to show for 12 years of war is fat bank balances for the armament industries and a list of destroyed countries with millions of dead and dislocated people who never lifted a hand against the United States.

The cost paid by American troops and taxpayers is extreme. Secretary of Veteran Affairs Erik Shinseki reported in November 2009 that "more veterans have committed suicide since 2001 than we have lost on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan." Many thousands of our troops have suffered amputations and traumatic brain injuries. At the Marine Corps War College Jim Lacey calculated that the annual cost of the Afghan war was $1.5 billion for each al-Qaeda member in Afghanistan. Many US and coalition troops paid with their lives for every one al-Qaeda member killed. On no basis has the war ever made sense."

and ...

"Ideologies are dangerous, because they are immune to facts. Now that the United States is no longer governed by the US Constitution, but by a crazed ideology that has given rise to a domestic police state more complete than that of Communist East Germany and to a warfare state that attacks sovereign countries based on nothing but manufactured lies, we are left with the irony that Russia and China are viewed as constraints on Washington's ability to inflict evil, death, and destruction on the world. The two pariah states of the 20th century have become the hope of mankind in the 21st century!" --- Paul Craig Roberts

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/

September 11, 2013 at 8:04 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

degage: Santa Catalina. She friends everyone, but (because she is a boat) does not look at other people's facebook pages.

alprova, I'm glad you got my point. Health care reform originated with the GOP, and yet they have no plan with which to replace the ACA.

September 11, 2013 at 8:14 a.m.
librul said...

Yachting and war - what a copious bowl of cold poop and porridge!

back to the facts ...

September 11, 2013 at 8:23 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Lu: What resolution?

September 11, 2013 at 8:50 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Well, you are right in a sense. It's not over yet. But it appears to me that this "good cop-bad cop" sort of situation allows for a non-violent outcome by giving Assad an option (dealing with Russia instead of the US) while Obama keeps the pressure on by continuing to ask Congress and the American people for a military strike. The other countries in the Middle East may accept Russia's intervention better than ours, and although Obama has to take a huge hit politically for pushing what we don't want, he knows that he is going to catch a lot of crap no matter what he does and what the outcome is.

I'm am certainly no expert, but I'd rather Obama piss off Americans than bomb Syria. Now, if Assad still calls his bluff (and that is possible) and he goes ahead with a strike without Congress' permission, I will change my opinion in a hurry.

September 11, 2013 at 9:04 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Lu, I'm no expert either, but it just seems to me the speech last night asked for a "stall" on something most people don't want anyway. Seemed kind of hollow to me. The risk seems to outweigh any potential gains to me. For instance, what if Assad reacts with more gas...maybe even lobbing some gas into Israel. What do we do then? No boots on ground?

September 11, 2013 at 9:20 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Not sure. It seems to be a gamble. It's up to Assad to believe that the US will strike if he does not cooperate with Russia. If I had to guess, that is Obama's strategy: Continue to take the hard line and ask for and justify a strike. If not, who knows? As far as "boots on the ground", do you think that any American president would send troops to defend Israel? I get the impression that the US public might demand that, but I am not sure. There seems to be a lot of concern, particularly among evangelicals, that we protect Israel.

September 11, 2013 at 9:32 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Yes, I think we would run to protect Israel. I would not label defenders of Israel as evangelicals. Lu, is there any scenario in which you would defend Israel with boots on ground?

September 11, 2013 at 9:39 a.m.
Maximus said...

Librul.....Fortune favors the bold. The weak are led by leftist websites and Libruls mindless copying. Barry The Welfare Pimp has spent, borrowed, paid off cronies and crooks more than any U. S. President in history. Broke Barry The Welfare Pimp is a better term.

Libruls go back to your Mamas basement where you belong. Now that's funny!

September 11, 2013 at 9:59 a.m.
Maximus said...

And Libruls I guess you are part of the crazy crowd that thinks it is unfair for the U.S. to be the only super power. Wa aw wa.....America is a bully.

Sick.

September 11, 2013 at 10:04 a.m.
alprova said...

Ikeithlu wrote: "alprova, I'm glad you got my point. Health care reform originated with the GOP, and yet they have no plan with which to replace the ACA."

Sensible people are well aware that the GOP was for health care reform and mandates UNTIL a Democrat came on board with the same idea, then they did a 180 degree turn the other way.

In the meantime, they have done their level best to dazzle the American public with their displays of utter bullstuff, attempting to convince people that they have their best interests at heart.

Some are woefully fooled. Thankfully, most are not.

September 11, 2013 at 10:27 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

I'm not sure, PT. The history of Israel and its formation is complicated and twisted. I have relatives from Israel, and I believe that the nation has every right to exist. Perhaps it is our and the UK's part in its formation and the impression the world has of our intention to defend it that keeps Israel safe.

September 11, 2013 at 10:30 a.m.
alprova said...

PT, if Assad is stupid enough to lob another chemical weapon, it would not dictate any boots on the ground.

It would dictate a carefully guided missile where Assad sleeps.

And don't think for one second that it is not known where he is at this very moment.

September 11, 2013 at 10:32 a.m.
Maximus said...

Republicans are not for crappy Crazy Pothead Canadian style socialized medicine. As for the lowly Democrats and Obamscare they are making it up as they go along. Alpo and Libruls spending too much time on gay.org.

September 11, 2013 at 10:40 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

C'mon Maxie. Educate us. What is the GOP plan?

September 11, 2013 at 10:47 a.m.
alprova said...

Maximyth, it is all too apparent that everything you type never begins to resemble reality. Instead, what you post is the mindless ramblings of a man who is virtually insane.

September 11, 2013 at 10:52 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

Virtually Alprova? Literally is a more definitive word.

September 11, 2013 at 11:23 a.m.
librul said...

Max, if anyone needs to do some reading, from any and all available sources - even copied comments from someone who served with your patron saint, Ronnie Raygun - it is you, dude. The world you have been sold by your cadre' of Limbaughtomizers is not the world we all live in - it is a fantasy world and unless you make some effort at educating yourself to its realities, you will forever be unable to do anything but exhibit your vast lack of knowledge and stand on the sidelines, picking and sniping at your betters.

September 11, 2013 at 12:31 p.m.
LibDem said...

When push comes to shove, I'll intervene in a mugging. It's probably not in my best interest and certainly I've been banged up in the past, but I just don't have that ability to turn away.

September 11, 2013 at 1:39 p.m.
ibshame said...

"Ramsey, the Senate speaker, earlier tweeted that "as the president attempts to ally w/ Al-Qaeda in syria's civil war, we must always remember who attacked us on our soil 12 years ago."

This is the kind of ignorance that speaks volumes as to the mind set of right wing nut jobs. It's really a bad reflection on Tennessee when teabaggers and nut jobs like this are put in high elective offices such as Lt. Governor.

I'm not for another war of any kind but if I had to vote on supporting the President in Syria, after reading the kind of BS from someone like Ramsey, I would have no problem whatsoever giving the President the support he needed. When are these simple-minded, bigoted idiots going to realize every time they write or say something as insanely stupid as the President wants to "ally with Al Qaeda" that it only creates further divisions?

September 11, 2013 at 1:40 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

ibshame said...

I'm not for another war of any kind but if I had to vote on supporting the President in Syria, after reading the kind of BS from someone like Ramsey, I would have no problem whatsoever giving the President the support he needed. When are these simple-minded, bigoted idiots going to realize every time they write or say something as insanely stupid as the President wants to "ally with Al Qaeda" that it only creates further divisions?

Let me get this straight. You don’t want us to go to war in Syria but if your political opponents don’t stop making statements that you disagree with then all bets are off. You would agree with an attack on Syria that would probably kill innocent people. You fleabaggers are so kind hearted ... Right?

September 11, 2013 at 2:32 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

libshame hears an idiot speak. libshame then wants to back a foolish policy. I think I got it.

September 11, 2013 at 2:41 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

But you're right about Ramsey, libshame. Hell, with gaffes like that, the man could be VP.

September 11, 2013 at 2:44 p.m.
ibshame said...

"Jt6gR3hM said... Let me get this straight. You don’t want us to go to war in Syria but if your political opponents don’t stop making statements that you disagree with then all bets are off. You would agree with an attack on Syria that would probably kill innocent people. You fleabaggers are so kind hearted ... Right?"

Let me put it this way just in case you didn't get it the first time I wrote it: I WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM SUPPORTING THE PRESIDENT'S DECISION IN THE FACE OF THE KIND OF STUPIDITY, IGNORANCE AND BIGOTRY DISPLAYED BY THE LT. GOV. OF THIS STATE WHEN HE TWEETS PRESIDENT OBAMA IS TRYING TO "ALLY WITH AL QAEDA."

I am sick and tired of this kind of ignorance and bigotry when it comes to President Obama. It's not hard to read between the lines as to what this ignoramus is trying to say.

As far as your objection to killing innocent people, that shipped sailed when George W. Bush launched an attack on Iraq supported by neo-con wannabes like yourself. That war killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, killed over 4000 U.S. soldiers and maimed many thousands more for life in a war that had no basis and was supposedly for WMD's that had been destroyed back in the 90's. In other words any objections neo-cons have for President Obama's actions in Syria are about as weak as water.

Nothing like the hypocrisy of a neo-con wannabe who has suddenly become so concerned about innocent people...Right?

September 11, 2013 at 2:47 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

LibDem said...

When push comes to shove, I'll intervene in a mugging. It's probably not in my best interest and certainly I've been banged up in the past, but I just don't have that ability to turn away.

A very unique take on foreign affairs for sure. Should we travel around the world looking for one nation mugging another or mugging their citizens? Maybe we will wait and only deal with those that we are provided information about? You know ... someone reads about a mugging in the paper and they call Obama and tell him about it. Will the mugging have to be in process or can we respond after the fact? Sure sounds like an expensive and dangerous undertaking for our nations military service members. However I guess bad a##es like you don't mind the risk.

BTW ... I’m sure you were all for Bush taking Saddam down for mugging his citizens ... Right?

September 11, 2013 at 2:49 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

ibshame said...

Let me put it this way just in case you didn't get it the first time I wrote it: I WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM SUPPORTING THE PRESIDENT'S DECISION IN THE FACE OF THE KIND OF STUPIDITY, IGNORANCE AND BIGOTRY DISPLAYED BY THE LT. GOV. OF THIS STATE WHEN HE TWEETS PRESIDENT OBAMA IS TRYING TO "ALLY WITH AL QAEDA."

I am sick and tired of this kind of ignorance and bigotry when it comes to President Obama. It's not hard to read between the lines as to what this ignoramus is trying to say.

I’ve got your meaning loud and clear. You are anti war but would support Obama killing innocent people because someone makes statements you disagree with.

As far as your objection to killing innocent people, that shipped sailed when George W. Bush launched an attack on Iraq supported by neo-con wannabes like yourself. That war killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people, killed over 4000 U.S. soldiers and maimed many thousands more for life in a war that had no basis and was supposedly for WMD's that had been destroyed back in the 90's.

I also got this message loud and clear. Even though you are anti war you think it is now reasonable for Obama to kill innocent people since Bush has already set the precedent of doing so.

September 11, 2013 at 3:02 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

librul said ...

exhibit your vast lack of knowledge and stand on the sidelines, picking and sniping at your betters.

”Your Betters” ... Most excellent dude. You do know what I mean don’t you ... after all you are the “Big Brain” ... Right?

September 11, 2013 at 3:11 p.m.
librul said...

Sorry, ibshame, but you need to examine the facts in the Syrian situation. As Dr. Roberts explains in the video above - the "rebels" fighting Assad are not Syrians. The Syrian people are not "their" people. They are imported jihadists. And the fastest growing faction among those we are "supporting" in Syria is Syria al Nusra - described this way in a "daily Beast article by Bruce Reidel:

"Al Qaeda’s franchise in Syria, just one year old, is now the fastest-growing al Qaeda front in the world, attracting fighters from across the Islamic world. Jabhat al Nusra, translated variously as the Victory Front or the Support Front for the Syrian People, was founded in January 2012, almost a year after the first demonstrations against the dictatorship of President Bashar al-Assad. It was created with the assistance of the al Qaeda franchise in Iraq that was formed nearly a decade ago during the American invasion...Assad, of course, from the beginning of the uprising against his tyranny, has blamed it all on terrorists and al Qaeda. But the truth is that by refusing to give up power and by resorting to a brutal war against his own people, he has created a self-fulfilling prophecy and brought al Qaeda to Syria. The longer the war goes on now, the stronger al Qaeda will get in Syria...For now the jihadists are focused on Syria and winning the war against Assad. But their ambitions are much larger. With a base in Syria they can threaten American interests in the entire Levant region, Europe, and our allies in Turkey, Jordan, and Israel. The worst danger is that the al Nusra front will get control of some of Syria’s large chemical weapons arsenal."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/02/23/al-nusra-al-qaeda-s-syria-offensive.html

Sooooo - if we align ourselves with them and help these "rebels" win, just what assurances do you think there can ever be that they won't get and use Assad's chemical weapons? What proof can there be they don't already have some? Obviously our spookworks has no proof that the Sarin attack wasn't a false flag operation designed to draw the US further into the mess. I'm sure they believe that if they can use our military to eliminate Assad, that the American people's recalcitrance about another protracted war will leave them in total control.

September 11, 2013 at 3:17 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

librul verifies computers in his spare time.

September 11, 2013 at 3:32 p.m.
alprova said...

It's such a remarkable coincidence that with all these al-Quaeda forces who are allegedly fighting as rebels in Syria, when chemical weapons were used, the vast majority of those who were killed were women and children.

The contrasts of Syria to that which once existed in Iraq are astounding.

Two Tyrants. A minority governing a majority. Chemical weapons.

But there is one difference. So far, the United States has not intervened. So...why would al-Quaeda have some beef with Assad?

If it were to simply get their hands on some of those chemical weapons, seems to me that Assad would run, not walk, to appeal to the International community for some assistance, rather then to deploy them on innocent life.

Sooner or later, the world is going to be drawn into this mess.

September 11, 2013 at 4:36 p.m.
Maximus said...

Putin is very well read and is using his KGB betters to school the hapless Barry The Welfare Pimp. As Col. Oliver North, a GREAT American recently stated, Obama's Middle East foreign policy strategy is very dangerous, very dangerous indeed. EBT cards don't sell very well to terrorist regimes.

September 11, 2013 at 5:13 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

Assad is already taking advantage of Putin schooling Obama. For the first time since the talk of America military action began, today Syria resumed its bombing attacks against the rebels.

September 11, 2013 at 5:41 p.m.
jesse said...

Hey Al, In case ya ain't noticed we been more or less involved in this mess since 1947!!

September 11, 2013 at 5:47 p.m.
rick1 said...

Help kick start Obama's World War III project.

September 11, 2013 at 6 p.m.
tifosi said...

Paradox 101 and the incoherent RWNJ.

I bet 70% of the working force at Volkswagen are right-wing conservatives. Yet they are jumping on the left-wing bandwagon to organize a union with the UAW. WTF???

I see the same stupid paradox dribbling from Maxipuss's mouth. Can't stand those tree-huggin' libruls, yet he feeds at the VW trough, lives in a city revitalized by environmentalist and won't even support local workers by drinking Tennessee Whiskey. How do you spell hypocrite??? M-A-X-I-M-U-S!!!

September 11, 2013 at 6:03 p.m.
librul said...

Meh - is Ollie still hiding in the basement? Oh, yeah - he's on the fascist talk radio propaganda airwaves representing the shadow government now, isn't he?

Putz.

September 11, 2013 at 6:18 p.m.
Maximus said...

VW plant will be closed 6 months after its employees start paying UAW mafia protection money. Tifosi I just prefer Johnny Blue over rot gut JD. I think very high fat food vendors built Chatt not the enviro cowd. Main street Chatt is diabetes central.

September 11, 2013 at 7:07 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

by WYNTON HALL

The National Journal's Ron Fournier says a Democratic strategist "who works closely with the White House" told him that Syria "has been one of the most humiliating episodes in presidential history."

In the wake of Obama's address to the nation Tuesday night, other progressives have expressed frustration with his handling of the Syrian crisis. Progressive Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank said Obama's speech contradicted statements by Secretary of State John Kerry just 11 hours prior to the president's remarks.

"Kerry can be forgiven for being at odds with the president," writes Milbank. "The president, in the space of his 16-minute address, was often at odds with himself... Nuance can sound a lot like a muddle."

Before the speech, progressive New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd blasted Obama's "flip-flopping, ambivalent leadership" on Syria. "Amateur hour started when Obama dithered on Syria and failed to explain the stakes there," wrote Dowd. "It escalated last August with a slip by the methodical wordsmith about 'a red line for us'--which the president and Kerry later tried to blur as the world's red line, except the world was averting its eyes."

She added: "Obama's flip-flopping, ambivalent leadership led him to the exact place he never wanted to be: unilateral instead of unified."

September 11, 2013 at 7:32 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Heinz-Kerry is a weeny. Otherwise he would tell BHO to pound sand.

September 11, 2013 at 8:05 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

By Jennifer Rubin

After a week or so of political whiplash, the country heard directly from President Obama as he tried to explain his policy. The speech was exceptionally revealing in the logical disconnect that plagues his policy:

Chemical weapons use is beyond the pale and different than any weapon.

We cannot let it go on.

We have a national interest in acting.

But I would ask Congress to hold off on voting for me to do anything.

We’ll consider a deal to have Assad turn over his weapons. But remain in power.

He claimed that everything changed on Aug. 21, when massive use of chemical weapons was reported. However, his secretary of state in testimony confessed they had been used many times before Aug. 21. Why was it not essential for us to act months ago?

Obama said the action would be limited and swore off “boots on the ground,” yet assured us this would be no “pinprick.” This makes our response even more muddled and provides Assad with all the assurance he needs that even if the U.S. were to use force (highly unlikely now) he would survive unscathed.

Gone is the demand that Assad “must go.”

Gone is any penalty for using chemical weapons.

Gone is the demonstration of resolve meant to signal seriousness about chemical weapons.

Gone is the notion that we care about the plight of Syrians or that 100,000 dead stir something beyond empty rhetoric.

Gone is any deterrent effect to Iran. It will be a minor miracle if Iran doesn’t get a nuclear weapon in the next 3 years.

Obama admits we have vital national interests in the region. The president just isn’t willing to act to protect them.


Gone is any remaining credibility that Obama may have had and our country has been seriously damaged by his incompetence. He let his alligator mouth make unnecessary threats that his bumblebee a## couldn’t backup.

September 11, 2013 at 8:06 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

^^^^^^^^^^ yep

September 11, 2013 at 8:27 p.m.
tifosi said...

Great video Alprova. America the beautiful.

September 11, 2013 at 9:09 p.m.
rick1 said...

Obama would risk a world war over his ego just proves he is not fit to command.

September 11, 2013 at 9:09 p.m.
tifosi said...

Bush's did it twice.

September 11, 2013 at 9:21 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

I thought it was about oil

September 11, 2013 at 10:08 p.m.
rick1 said...

tifosi posted: Bush's did it twice.

Bush had the support of other nations, the U.N. and Congress including Kerry and Hillary voted to go into Iraq and Afghanistan. Obama didn't have this support for wanting to attack Syria.

Contrary to what people to believe Bush had evidence of Iraq having WMD's

In 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee unanimously approved a report acknowledging that it "did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to change their judgments." The following year, the bipartisan Robb-Silberman report similarly found "no indication that the intelligence community distorted the evidence regarding Iraq's weapons of mass destruction."

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/16/opinion/oe-kirchick16

Obama wants us to believe Assad used chemical weapons on civilians and wants us to believe he has evidence of this. He acts like he has collected the evidence and we are to take his word on this because he is Obama and we are not to question him.

Remember it was one year ago today that our consulate in Benghazi was torched and he and for several weeks he lied to the American people blaming it on a YouTube video and denying it was a terrorist attack. In fact the terrorist who were for the terror attack have not been captured and brought to justice as Obama had promised.

It has been proven Bush did not lie like Obama has been lying to us with Benghazi and Syria.

If Obama is so sure that Assad used chemical weapons why did he take Putin up on his offer to negotiate a resolution?

September 11, 2013 at 10:44 p.m.
Maximus said...

Rick funny how W. Bush served two terms as you maintained your pitifully obscure life in the Scenic City. His father Bush 41 was a Navy pilot in WWII actually liberating a good number of Tifosi's wop relatives.

No, the Bush family is America's greatest political family unlike the Kennedy's that seem to have a problem keeping it in their pants and staying alive. I guess you could include the Roosevelt's but I prefer TR over that socialist Elitist FDR. The Adams boys are pretty high on the list also.

September 11, 2013 at 10:45 p.m.
alprova said...

Vladamir Putin, in his own words.

Quite interesting;

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/52987873/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

September 11, 2013 at 10:45 p.m.
rick1 said...

Max, do you know how to read? You may want to re read my post as I was defending Bush as the link I provided shows he did not lie.

September 11, 2013 at 10:55 p.m.
Maximus said...

Al, impressive, having spent some time in Russia recently many like Vladamir Putin are turning to the Lord, Jesus Christ for their salvation. Al you should try it too by visiting the church of your choice on Sunday, repent of your pagan ways and give your life to Christ Jesus just like Vladamir Putin has.

PTL!l

September 11, 2013 at 10:56 p.m.
Maximus said...

Ricky, I stand corrected. History will treat Bush 41 and 43 very well. As for Obama.....not so much other than he was the first President from Hawaii and from a broken bi-racial communist family.

September 11, 2013 at 11:03 p.m.
fairmon said...

alprova said...

Vladamir Putin, in his own words.

alprova...I don't know if Putin is the author or not but it is a logical and well written document. Our folks talk about what a terrible person Putin is but no details follow their labeling of the man. He may be a terrible tyrant but only our congress paint him that way, not the British and other press.

Obama's speech was not a good speech. Using or invoking emotion is not what is needed regarding an issue this critical. He urged us to watch the videos and described what some videos show but none show the source of the chemical weapons. Circumstantial evidence points at Assad but is that enough to warrant America again being the aggressor nation? It is hard to tell what the president wants to do when he don't know himself.

September 12, 2013 at 12:10 a.m.
joneses said...

One has to wonder at their next meeting if Barry will kiss each of Putin’s cheeks in the old Soviet style, plant a kiss on each of his @ss checks, or just plant one square on the lips.

http://townhall.com/columnists/nealboortz/2013/09/10/putin-pulls-obamas-strings-n1696152

September 12, 2013 at 12:40 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Once a KGB thug, always a KGB thug.

September 12, 2013 at 12:49 a.m.
limric said...

An amateur corporate and EIC controlled administration (in reality, all of Washington) combined with a truly incompetent state dept. continues to expose themselves as rank amateurs in the game of chess and as such their reliance on bullying has been dramatically exposed.

Russia: Syria, turn your chemistry set over to international control. "Ok."

CHECK!

Vladimir Putins NYT op- ed piece: 'A Plea for Caution From Russia': "It is alarming that military intervention in internal conflicts in foreign countries has become commonplace for the United States. Millions around the world increasingly see America not as a model of democracy but as relying solely on brute force."

CHECKMATE!

September 12, 2013 at 6:41 a.m.
ibshame said...

"Jt6gR3hM said... By Jennifer Rubin"

This wouldn't be the same Jennifer Rubin the outgoing editor of the Washington Post recommended they fire because there were so many hundreds of complaints against her as Mitt Romney's cheerleader last year would it?

The Washington Post might not be a right wing rag but Jennifer Rubin is definitely a right wing nut job hag.

September 12, 2013 at 6:53 a.m.
fairmon said...

Who has the best spy network, The KGB or CIA? Would crippling Assad not result in a regime change? Who or what faction would replace him? Is there a good example of where it has worked out for the better in other countries? What did Obama promise Putin in private at the G20 conference? Are Obama and Kerry on speaking terms?

Who was proud of their president as he spoke as the world watched Tuesday evening? Did he appear presidential and as a decisive and effective leader or a weak waffling wuss?

September 12, 2013 at 6:54 a.m.
degage said...

ibs, What has made you such a bitter person? your hatred of anyone that has a different view is sad. Maybe some people think you are a left wing hag, I doubt you are a hag and I doubt just because someone is a conservative they are a hag.

September 12, 2013 at 7:07 a.m.
ibshame said...

"degage said... ibs, What has made you such a bitter person? your hatred of anyone that has a different view is sad. Maybe some people think you are a left wing hag, I doubt you are a hag and I doubt just because someone is a conservative they are a hag."

You should get a life. Your self-righteous psuedo piety is just that psuedo. What makes you think because I have a different view from yours or some other nut job that my view is based on hatred. That's what I find so amusing about someone like you. If you want to consider it hatred be my guest, I could really care less. As long as this is still a free country I have EVERY right to express my opinions just as others do. Why don't you question someone like Jones, Maximus or some of the other rwnj's about why their opinions are based on "hatred?" Until you do that then your opinion of my opinions means diddly. Got it?

September 12, 2013 at 7:30 a.m.
degage said...

ibs, you must be Easy, your answer is exactly what he has said so many times. I love it that you libs all think alike. I like my life just the way it is, Thank You.

September 12, 2013 at 7:36 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Whoa, whoa, whoa. I am a liberal and I don't think like anyone else. Let's not define people by group stereotype.

September 12, 2013 at 7:48 a.m.
degage said...

Sorry Ike, I know you are different but did you notice that ibs did have easy's comeback. I should have said most not all.

September 12, 2013 at 7:51 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Deal. And I will pledge never to lump all conservatives together. Easy, since I know so many personally. (including all the members of my immediate family-I am a bit of an oddity, but it is a good excuse to avoid politics when we gather)

One of the benefits of avoiding stereotypes and absolutes is that we don't have to apologize for the crazies on our own side.

September 12, 2013 at 8:03 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Libshame could not exist w/o utilizing stereotypes. Apparently likes the word "pseudo". ..ironic coming from a pseudo intellectual. The left is full of pseudo intellectuals, sadly. how's that for stereotyping?

September 12, 2013 at 9:06 a.m.
alprova said...

degage, ibshame makes a very valid point.

You accused him/her of being bitter and filled with hatred.

joneses, maximyth, JT, and some others use disrespectful words towards others all the time, and I don't recall you ever calling them down for such behavior.

September 12, 2013 at 9:13 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Soooo, Alpy. You never use disrespectful names on others? Hmmm?

September 12, 2013 at 9:25 a.m.
degage said...

Al, You are wrong! You might want to go back months to see I did not agree with some of those you mentioned. I myself try not to name call those I disagree with. And ibs does sound just like our friend Easy. You may think I am name calling by saying ibs sounds like easy, I don't.

September 12, 2013 at 9:27 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Mrs Gage: ibby is bad, but lacks the venom of Easy. Easy was the nastiest poster ever on here during my days here.

September 12, 2013 at 9:32 a.m.
jesse said...

Al? When was the last time you called out one of the left leanin nut jobs on here for bad behavior?? EVER? I didn't think so!

Of course anyone who can say with a straight face that they were unaware of Easy's bad attitude must just be unaware period!!RIGHT

September 12, 2013 at 9:33 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon worte: "alprova...I don't know if Putin is the author or not but it is a logical and well written document"

Yes it is. Isn't it about time to welcome the world into the debate, rather than to rely on our leaders as the sole voice and opinion?

"Our folks talk about what a terrible person Putin is but no details follow their labeling of the man. He may be a terrible tyrant but only our congress paint him that way, not the British and other press."

I've never considered Putin a tyrant and most of what was written was quite sensible. I believe he has a vested interest in seeing to it that Assad is not deposed, thus the reason he is working to resolve the issue diplomatically, rather than to level threats like other world leaders are currently doing.

"Obama's speech was not a good speech. Using or invoking emotion is not what is needed regarding an issue this critical. He urged us to watch the videos and described what some videos show but none show the source of the chemical weapons."

Use your brain. If the rebels had access to those chemical weapons, don't you think they would use them to go after factions of the Syrian government, rather than to have deployed them on themselves?

"Circumstantial evidence points at Assad but is that enough to warrant America again being the aggressor nation? It is hard to tell what the president wants to do when he don't know himself."

Nothing good would come of any military attack by the United States on Syria. Nothing. In fact, it's time for the United States to start worrying about themselves for about the next 100 years or so.

Putin's involvement has provided the best "out" for everyone, if it all comes to pass.

September 12, 2013 at 9:34 a.m.
alprova said...

PT wrote: "Soooo, Alpy. You never use disrespectful names on others? Hmmm?"

I only return fire. I do not launch attacks unprovoked.

September 12, 2013 at 9:37 a.m.
alprova said...

degage wrote: "Al, You are wrong! You might want to go back months to see I did not agree with some of those you mentioned."

Disagreeing sometimes is one thing, but calling people down for continually displaying a total lack of respect is another.

"I myself try not to name call those I disagree with. And ibs does sound just like our friend Easy. You may think I am name calling by saying ibs sounds like easy, I don't."

ibshame has been around for a long time. Easy refused to play nice and I called him down for it.

September 12, 2013 at 9:41 a.m.
joneses said...

Did anyone ever think that the president of the United States of America would have less respect from Americans than the President of Russia. Oh how obama has failed the United States and the World. He looks foolish and incompetent to our allies and our enemies.

September 12, 2013 at 9:43 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpy says "Easy refused to play nice and I called him down for it." Yeah, after months of kissing his butt and siding with him

September 12, 2013 at 9:47 a.m.
alprova said...

jesse wrote: "Al? When was the last time you called out one of the left leanin nut jobs on here for bad behavior?? EVER? I didn't think so!"

Who would you be referring to? Easy is the last one I remember consistently lobbing insults and I DID call him out for it.

"Of course anyone who can say with a straight face that they were unaware of Easy's bad attitude must just be unaware period!!RIGHT"

I believe if you will look back, you will read that I often skipped his posts because they lacked content that I cared to read. Most of the time, he and PT were lobbing insults at each other and that crap gets very old quickly.

I tried repeatedly to get both of them to cool it, to no avail.

With Easy gone, PT trolls every day looking for a new sparring partner, although he has offered more substantive posts lately.

September 12, 2013 at 9:49 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

PT = Mr. Substantive

September 12, 2013 at 9:59 a.m.
jesse said...

Al, Ya remember Nooga, dude abides,new bulbs and that's just off the top of my head! AND ya NEVER called Easy out, you made excuses for him and finally when he got totally out of control you told him he needed to CALM DOWN!!!P.T. trolls some and Max does nothing BUT troll<I happen to think all of con man's crap is trolling and he suckers you in every time he gets goin w/his bible crap!!

September 12, 2013 at 10:02 a.m.
ibshame said...

"degage said... ibs, you must be Easy, your answer is exactly what he has said so many times. I love it that you libs all think alike. I like my life just the way it is, Thank You."

And I love it that all right wing nut jobs and teabaggers think alike. You can pick one out as soon as they start writing. Glad you like your life because I certainly like mine.

Maybe if some of the teabaggers and right wing nut jobs had not gotten Easy banned, you wouldn't feel the need to try to claim someone else is Easy. Guilt must be eating at you that he didn't try to change his name to come back like Jack Dennis and Tudumb. For that matter you could be the person who would give us all a daily count of how many days President Obama had left before Mitt Romney supposedly was going to beat him? I so miss that countdown. HAHAHAH

September 12, 2013 at 10:29 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Mrs Gage: I take it back. ibby is sounding more like Easy. I didn't realize Easy was banned. Somehow don't believe that.

September 12, 2013 at 10:39 a.m.
jesse said...

Degage, Easy was 3 times nastier than IBS BUT he was also 6 times smarter!BUT give her time and she will overtake the nasty part but never the smarts!

HEY AL? Is this what ya mean by TROLLIN!!Maybe catch me an idjit!!(HEY ROO,there's that word again!!)

HEY P.T. Believe it!!!

September 12, 2013 at 10:44 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Jesse: Easy was the Warden of Wiki and the Generalissimo of Google. Smart? Not so sure.

September 12, 2013 at 10:57 a.m.
jesse said...

I didn't say he was SMART,Just 6 times smarter than IBS!!

IBS and Al are about equal in the smarts dept.what does that say!(this trollin buis.is kinda fun ain't it??)

Ya know if you allow yourself to be trolled then you are just as guilty as the troller!

September 12, 2013 at 10:58 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

fair enough

September 12, 2013 at 11:02 a.m.
alprova said...

No offense jesse, but any opinion you may have to the intelligence of anyone else, is as meaningful as it would be for you to sit in an observation room and offering criticism of one performing heart surgery.

September 12, 2013 at 11:25 a.m.
PlainTruth said...

Alpy: Look who's lobbing insults now.

September 12, 2013 at 11:27 a.m.
jesse said...

Ya just got trolled Al!lol. If ya had a sense of humor you would have a lot more fun on here! Al you take your self and your opinions and the impact they have WAY too seriously!!

HEY P T! I told ya i would catch me one!!LMAO! IBS didn't fall for it! YET!

Al had a shot commin since he took what i said so serious!!shot a big hole in his ego!!

September 12, 2013 at 11:37 a.m.
MickeyRat said...

Just curious.

Assad, Obama & Putin are on the golf course. Putin drives short down the fairway into the rough. Assad slices one and beans some little kid in the head. Obama pings the ball into his chin.

Who gets a mulligan?

September 12, 2013 at 1:25 p.m.
jesse said...

No mulligans, you play the ball as it lies and the course as you find it!!Called "playing the ball down!!"

September 12, 2013 at 1:32 p.m.
PlainTruth said...

Guessing BHO's best club is the foot wedge

September 12, 2013 at 2:35 p.m.
jesse said...

I think in this situation Obama showed up for goony golf and found himself in the U.S. OPEN!

Found out he can't play with the BIG BOYS!!!

September 12, 2013 at 3:20 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

ibshame said...

What makes you think because I have a different view from yours or some other nut job that my view is based on hatred.

We’ve read some of your posts ... that’s why.

That's what I find so amusing about someone like you. If you want to consider it hatred be my guest, I could really care less.

You “could really care less”? ... So how much do you care? ... Must be quite a bit as you whine about it all the time.

As long as this is still a free country I have EVERY right to express my opinions just as others do.

As we have the right ... well you know ... don’t you agree?

September 12, 2013 at 6:21 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

ibshame (LWNJH)said...

This wouldn't be the same Jennifer Rubin the outgoing editor of the Washington Post recommended they fire because there were so many hundreds of complaints against her as Mitt Romney's cheerleader last year would it?

The Washington Post might not be a right wing rag but Jennifer Rubin is definitely a right wing nut job hag.

He was not an editor as he was Patrick Pexton who served as The Washington Post's ombudsman. Wonder why the paper didn’t renew his contract but they did Rubin’s? ..... Bitter ex-employee?

Fred Hiatt, editorial page editor’s response to Pexton’s statement:

“I appreciate Patrick's perspective but I think he is quite wrong about Jennifer Rubin. Regular readers of her blog know that she is an indefatigable reporter who is as hard on politicians on the right when she thinks they get things wrong as on the other side. Just to give one example: no one has done a better job chronicling the Republicans' internal debates and anxieties regarding immigration. If you read her rather than the comments about her you can learn a lot.”

September 12, 2013 at 6:28 p.m.
rick1 said...

Obama admirer Joe Klein admits in Time magazine that the president's Syria debacle "weakened the nation's standing in the world" in "one of the more stunning and inexplicable displays of presidential incompetence that I've ever witnessed."

September 12, 2013 at 7:05 p.m.
Maximus said...

Alpo, a mealy mouthed "respectful" approach will get you no where except trampled upon. I have absolutely zero respect for Barry The Welfare Pimp especially NOW with his handling of the Syrian crisis. Like I have said before, with Obama it's amateur hour.

September 12, 2013 at 7:12 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

A reporter asks Kerry about the possibility of averting a military strike on Syria.

Secretary of State John Kerry said:

"Sure. He could turn over every single bit of his chemical weapons to the international community in the next week. Turn it over. All of it, without delay. And allow the full and total accounting for that. But he isn't about to do it, and it can't be done, obviously."

A State Department member called Kerry’s statement a “Major Goof”.

State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki said:

"Secretary Kerry was making a rhetorical argument about the impossibility and unlikelihood of Assad turning over chemical weapons he has denied he used. His point was that this brutal dictator with a history of playing fast and loose with the facts can not be trusted to turn over chemical weapons; otherwise, he would have done so long ago. That's why the world faces this moment."

Russian President Vladimir Putin said:

“Certainly, this is all reasonable, it will function and will work out, only if the US and those who support it on this issue pledge to renounce the use of force, because it is difficult to make any country – Syria or any other country in the world – to unilaterally disarm if there is military action against it under consideration.”

France’s foreign minister said:

“As I understood, the Russians at this stage were not necessarily enthusiastic, and I’m using euphemism, to put all that into the framework of a U.N. binding resolution.”

Obama was being played by Putin and forced him to re-write his speech at the last minute and then re-write it again until it was little more than mush.

Putin says there will be no quick fix and he will take his sweet time all the while punking Obama by promising a fix then taking it away over and over. A political version of Lucy, Charlie Brown, and the chemical football.

Yet Obama implies that this was his plan all along and what a brilliant deal it was ... Right! Assad gets to stay in power with no punishment, Putin establishes himself as the real power in that area, and Obama gets to eat crow.

September 12, 2013 at 7:19 p.m.
conservative said...

Now this is remarkable news –

Liberal/Demoncrat Mayor Vincent Gray of Washington D. C. actually vetoed a bill passed by the city council that would have raised the minimum wage to $12.50 from $8.50 an hour.

You read that right, that is not a typo.

Walmart threatened to leave the city and the mayor cited numerous retailers who would no longer expand or come to the D. C. if the bill became law such as Home Depot, Lowes, CVS, Target, Auto Zone, Macy’s, and Harris Teeter.

This Liberal/Demoncrat Mayor Vincent Gray of Washington D. C. actually said:

“The bill is a job-killer,”

I repeat:

“The bill is a job-killer,”

Well duh!

September 12, 2013 at 7:28 p.m.
Jt6gR3hM said...

By Charles Crawford:

“Chemical weapons are relatively easy to make and store (and fire), but much harder to dismantle safely. The chemicals themselves are fiendishly dangerous and need to be destroyed with specialist equipment without creating environmental hazards.

There is no precedent for attempting anything like this in a country wracked by civil war. It just can’t happen. No Syrian chemical weapons will be destroyed or "handed over" quickly.

Meanwhile any new process of setting up an international monitoring and destruction regime will require painstaking UN and wider negotiation with the Assad regime, thereby giving Assad and his state apparatus a massive boost of renewed confidence and legitimacy.

Before long Washington may find itself locked on to implicitly or even explicitly supporting Assad in his civil war as the best chance to get some sort of internationally agreed CW destruction programme delivered in Syria.”

September 12, 2013 at 7:28 p.m.
alprova said...

maximyth wrote: "Alpo, a mealy mouthed "respectful" approach will get you no where except trampled upon. I have absolutely zero respect for Barry The Welfare Pimp especially NOW with his handling of the Syrian crisis. Like I have said before, with Obama it's amateur hour."

Whatever...

I'm sure that he will never be bothered by YOUR lack of respect, for whatever reason that it may be based upon. As I have pointed out so many times, he IS the President and we're a bunch of nobodies with opinions that will never matter to anyone in charge.

Your problems will never be his problems. His problems will never be your problem to deal with.

So fire away, for all the good it will ever do.

And the same thing goes for all of you other Presidential bashers.

September 12, 2013 at 9:15 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1, quoting the most critical line from an article is great, but the man wrote much more;

"Creating a precise plan in the Middle East is utterly impossible, which is something the American people have clearly come to realize."

"The President isn’t crass or stupid enough to say it, but I would guess that he is persisting in his public threats of military action because American credibility—and, more precisely, his credibility—really is at stake. But playing the “American credibility” card is a foolish and extremely dangerous game."

"In my lifetime, more lives, including American lives, have been lost in the pursuit of American credibility than by any legitimate military factor. It was what led Lyndon Johnson to double down in Vietnam. It was what helped propel George W. Bush into pulling the trigger in Iraq, even after it was clear that most of the world and, quietly, the American military thought it would be a disastrous exercise. It was what led Obama deeper into Afghanistan."

"Make no mistake, Obama has already lost credibility in the world, given his performance of the past few weeks. But American credibility is easily resurrected, given our overwhelming strength, by prudent action the next time a crisis erupts, a clear strategic vision and a rock-steady hand on the wheel."

"There are those who say Obama has destroyed his presidency. It may be true, but I doubt it. All sorts of things could happen to turn the tide back in his favor. The snap polls after the Syria speech indicate that he still has the ability to sell an argument, however briefly. He has been lucky in his opponents: the Republicans will doubtless continue to take positions that most Americans find foolish or extreme."

Read the entire article:

http://swampland.time.com/2013/09/11/obama-and-syria-stumbling-toward-damascus/#ixzz2ejUstnzi

September 12, 2013 at 9:42 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, I read the entire article and it is not a positive article for Obama. You can pick out a few paragraphs in an attempt to defend Obama but he is not the genius you said he would be with his handling of Syria.

You said the other day "Enough of Syria." "Putin is going to handle it." Putin will handle it alright because he is determined to reduce our global power while Assad stays in power, and remains an ally to Anti- American Russia, and Nuclear Iran.

Do you really believe Putin will have Assad turn over all of his chemical weapons? Putin will tell us this will take months to accomplish and the news media will completely forget about it and will move on to something else, and Assad will still have chemical weapons.

Tell me Al how what respect will Obama receive the next time he stands in front of his teleprompter and tells Iran they must stop their nuclear program? He will be laughed at be the entire world.

You can try to spin Joe Klein's article but he is exactly right wen he said that the president's Syria debacle "weakened the nation's standing in the world" in "one of the more stunning and inexplicable displays of presidential incompetence that I've ever witnessed."

September 12, 2013 at 10:42 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Al, I read the entire article and it is not a positive article for Obama. You can pick out a few paragraphs in an attempt to defend Obama but he is not the genius you said he would be with his handling of Syria."

I did not claim he was a genius for the way he handled Syria. I stated that his punting the issue to Congress was a stroke of genius.

Now, instead of the world having it's eyes focused on Obama, they now have them trained on Putin.

"You said the other day "Enough of Syria." "Putin is going to handle it." Putin will handle it alright because he is determined to reduce our global power while Assad stays in power, and remains an ally to Anti- American Russia, and Nuclear Iran."

Gee...it almost sounds as if you are sorry that the bombs weren't dropped. No one in this nation has called for Assad to be deposed. He's going to stay in power unless he is removed by his own people.

"Do you really believe Putin will have Assad turn over all of his chemical weapons?"

I say the chances are they will all be found and all of them will be turned over, because the UN is going to be involved.

"Putin will tell us this will take months to accomplish and the news media will completely forget about it and will move on to something else, and Assad will still have chemical weapons."

Well, the world will be watching, the UN weapons inspectors will be going in, so it will not be up to Russia to do a thing.

"Tell me Al how what respect will Obama receive the next time he stands in front of his teleprompter and tells Iran they must stop their nuclear program? He will be laughed at be the entire world."

Naw...the only people who will be laughing are those like yourself who see only what they want to see.

"You can try to spin Joe Klein's article but he is exactly right wen he said that the president's Syria debacle "weakened the nation's standing in the world" in "one of the more stunning and inexplicable displays of presidential incompetence that I've ever witnessed."..."

Okay. I'm not going to argue about it. The man wrote every word I quoted as well. You read what you wanted from it and you left the rest on the table.

What else is new?

Vladimire Putin stepped up to the world podium and took charge, offering his assistance in what would have been a disastrous mistake.

So what if for once the United States did not come out on top?

It's high time we took second seat for once and allowed some other world leaders to handle some of the crap.

Of course, that disappoints all you arm chair militia.

September 13, 2013 at 12:16 a.m.
rick1 said...

Al, it is starting already with Assad and there is nothing Obama and Kerry will be able to do. Syria will become stronger and we will have already become weaker because of Obama.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/world/middleeast/listing-demands-assad-uses-crisis-to-his-advantage.html?hp&_r=0

September 13, 2013 at 6:33 p.m.
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