published Sunday, March 10th, 2013

The Drones

about Clay Bennett...

The son of a career army officer, Bennett led a nomadic life, attending ten different schools before graduating in 1980 from the University of North Alabama with degrees in Art and History. After brief stints as a staff artist at the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette and the Fayetteville (NC) Times, he went on to serve as the editorial cartoonist for the St. Petersburg Times (1981-1994) and The Christian Science Monitor (1997-2007), before joining the staff of the ...

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AndrewLohr said...

And the war on fiscal sanity, who is waging that?

March 10, 2013 at 12:36 a.m.
BigRidgePatriot said...

Are you kidding me? Confusing a "war" made up by divisive progressives with a real war on a group of people that is tired of our meddling in their affairs? Really? Bennett is one twisted puppy.

March 10, 2013 at 12:37 a.m.
Cactus said...

Let's take a bite out of corruption in Washington by starting a war on Crony Capitalism. A good start would be by eliminating $1 trillion in loopholes from the tax code.

March 10, 2013 at 6:04 a.m.
fairmon said...

Cactus said... Let's take a bite out of corruption in Washington by starting a war on Crony Capitalism. A good start would be by eliminating $1 trillion in loopholes from the tax code.

Cactus....All exceptions should be eliminated. Loop holes are legitimate tax deductions and other tax avoidance opportunities provided by congress over time until the tax codes are a 4 ft. high book of small print text. Are you willing to abolish all exceptions and tax avoidance measures? Taxes should be filed on a post card. Are you willing to stop the discrimination against those not married and those preferring to rent than own a house? Taxing what is spent would be the most fair tax possible but most politician and the wealthy would never allow that to happen.

March 10, 2013 at 6:20 a.m.
fairmon said...

I am frightened to death since the government may not be allowed to use an unmanned aircraft to surveil me and to attack those it deems dangerous. What is a person to do if the government is not watching them 24/7 and is not allowed to take a U.S citizen terrorist out that is living in a high rise in NY city, you know, sacrifice a few to protect many? Why are so many people unwilling to give up some freedom, life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for that warm and fuzzy feeling that the government is watching over them and ready to react if provoked? I guess the government will just have to use traditional predrone methods to combat terrorist in the U.S.

March 10, 2013 at 6:35 a.m.
fairmon said...

Cactus...as you know congress has a high percent of lawyers. Any lawyer will maintain that a person is innocent until proven broke. They now have about half of us there and will now start working on the other half.

March 10, 2013 at 6:58 a.m.
MTJohn said...

AndrewLohr said...And the war on fiscal sanity, who is waging that?

K Street

March 10, 2013 at 7:12 a.m.
fairmon said...

AndrewLohr said... And the war on fiscal sanity, who is waging that?

Do you mean fiscal insanity? Only congress can declare war and that hasn't happened yet.

March 10, 2013 at 7:43 a.m.
conservative said...

I guess the loontoonist didn't like the criticism his fellow traveler was getting so he buried him.

March 10, 2013 at 8:09 a.m.
jesse said...

Well i see Bennett s relentless pursuit of mediocrity is still in operation!!

March 10, 2013 at 8:17 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Your post makes no sense. Your posting it twice 4 min apart on two threads makes even less sense.

March 10, 2013 at 8:17 a.m.
prairie_dog said...

I wonder if the Secret Service budget is also resulting in a 20% pay cut for the people who protect President Obama? Would that mean they are only willing to take a bullet for him 80% of the time? Seems fair.

March 10, 2013 at 8:17 a.m.
conservative said...

Clay Bennett, def. - an unchanging intonation

March 10, 2013 at 8:21 a.m.
conservative said...

Good morning Ike,

If you don't do your part, don't blame God.- Billy Sunday

March 10, 2013 at 8:32 a.m.
dude_abides said...

jesse... are you workin' for the man?

March 10, 2013 at 9:34 a.m.
jesse said...

what man is that?

March 10, 2013 at 9:52 a.m.
patriot1 said...

We've got a 50 year war going on with poverty, how's that working out? LBJ said we would eradicate it but we have as much poverty now as we've always had.

March 10, 2013 at 10:30 a.m.
Salsa said...

President OBomber never met a drone war he didn't love.

March 10, 2013 at 11:18 a.m.
jesse said...

Yeah Patriot but NOW the poor vote Dem., which was the whole point behind the "war on poverty" to start with!!

Basically the Great society and the war on poverty is a govmt.funded vote buying program!!

March 10, 2013 at 12:57 p.m.
equal_time said...

If we must continue to have Clay Bennett lampoons, may we please have an opposing viewpoint? I'm tired and bored with the continual leftist spin that he constantly regurgitates.

March 10, 2013 at 2:40 p.m.
MickeyRat said...

The very best political satirists, editorialist, professiors, scientists and writers (not FOX) TV oft times have a leftish bent. Its funny that way, but then, reality is usually like that.

March 10, 2013 at 2:55 p.m.
dude_abides said...

"Producers of a popular cable program about hunting and guns said on Saturday they were saddened by the "sudden untimely death" of the show's host, Gregory Rodriguez, who police said was shot to death in Montana by a man who later apparently killed himself."

http://todayentertainment.today.com/_news/2013/03/10/17258023-producers-honor-tv-host-killed-in-murder-suicide?lite

The shooting was immediately preceded by the "sudden untimely arrival" of the husband of the woman that the host was visiting. Proof that conservatives are not all cut from the same cloth.

March 10, 2013 at 2:56 p.m.
alprova said...

equal_time wrote: "If we must continue to have Clay Bennett lampoons, may we please have an opposing viewpoint? I'm tired and bored with the continual leftist spin that he constantly regurgitates."

Surely you know places on the web where opposing views can be found. They are filled with people who pat themselves on the back and who try to compete to see who can express the most ignorance of the day.

Do you know why it is that you folks on the right keep floating in and out of this page?

For some strange reason, there are people who just cannot seem to accept reality, yet they find themselves strangely attracted to it anyway.

March 10, 2013 at 3:26 p.m.
alprova said...

BRP wrote: Are you kidding me? Confusing a "war" made up by divisive progressives with a real war on a group of people that is tired of our meddling in their affairs?"**

What's this? A patriot who is not so patriotic?

Could it be that you do see the insanity of our leaders involving us in affairs that truly are none of our business?

March 10, 2013 at 3:30 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "Are you willing to stop the discrimination against those not married and those preferring to rent than own a house?"

You're sure turning into a one-trick pony lately.

Go out and buy you a damn house and marry that woman who changed your moniker and you join the rest of this nation who saves on their taxes by taking those two steps in life.

"Taxing what is spent would be the most fair tax possible but most politician and the wealthy would never allow that to happen."

So what are you going to do with the rest of your life? Complain about that which you cannot change, or make changes that you have the power to do, in order to join the rest of the nation to have something that can be used to save on your taxes?

Is what you pay in taxes the most important thing going on in your life these days? If so, that's rather sad.

Unless you are like Maximus, who probably doesn't have a pot to piss in, or a window to throw it out of, you're obviously not living from paycheck to paycheck, which puts you in far better shape than far too many people in this nation.

What do you really have to complain about?

Do you truly expect to find any sympathy from people to your particular complaint, who are struggling to make ends meet every single month?

March 10, 2013 at 3:44 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "I am frightened to death since the government may not be allowed to use an unmanned aircraft to surveil me and to attack those it deems dangerous."

Quite frankly, I doubt that the Government has any interest in what you are up to on any day of the week. The same applies to everyone else who is up in arms over the use of drones.

"What is a person to do if the government is not watching them 24/7 and is not allowed to take a U.S citizen terrorist out that is living in a high rise in NY city, you know, sacrifice a few to protect many?"

But of course. The media is filled with reports of drones being used to take out the lives of terrorists who exist in this nation.

"Why are so many people unwilling to give up some freedom, life, liberty and pursuit of happiness for that warm and fuzzy feeling that the government is watching over them and ready to react if provoked?"

I'm more concerned about those who seem to have no issue with our military being used to blow to smithereens, entire nations, taking innocent lives of untold numbers of people in the process, yet cannot digest for one second, anything that could be utilized that would keep our citizens safe from harm.

"I guess the government will just have to use traditional predrone methods to combat terrorist in the U.S."

What the heck? Let's do nothing at all and let the chips fall where they may.

March 10, 2013 at 3:53 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative = unchanging indoctrination.

March 10, 2013 at 3:55 p.m.
facyspacy said...

This clown still drawing cartoons?

March 10, 2013 at 4:03 p.m.
conservative said...

"Jesus cannot be God" alprova = blasphemous Mormon indoctrination

March 10, 2013 at 4:14 p.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

stanleyyelnatsDOTCOM

The government in some form or other (local, state or federal) kill American citizens on American soil without due process each and every day.

Guns are used to accomplish this feat. Swat teams routinely attack private homes and kill the occupants and said occupants have had NO due process.

In the Civil War the North (Americans) killed citizens of the South who were Americans. Or were they Americans and at what point were these Former Americans no longer Americans but enemy combatants? These Former Americans became combatants and these former Americans now Confederates were not given due process before being killed.

There is precedent for Killing Americans (or Americans who are now former Americans because these Americans are now enemy combatants) without due process if the American (or former American) is deemed an enemy combatant.

Just recently in Oregon an American was taken out because he had allegedly done some things. He had no due process. He didn't have his day in court. The government took him out with guns.

Guns are used and not drones to accomplish the killing. So, is it the killing of an American citizen we object to or the weapon that is used?

March 10, 2013 at 4:14 p.m.
stanleyyelnats said...

clay bennett = the voice of reason. Keep your views churning. Based on comments you are succeeding in your task. Educate the Un Educated.

At the very minimum ExPOSe the Uneducated to the Reality of FACT.

March 10, 2013 at 4:19 p.m.
dude_abides said...

Hey BRP! Is that you that drives that Jeep around the neighborhood? We were up that way a couple of weeks ago, and were enamored of that little sucker. She won't buy me one, though. Thought, perhaps, we had caught you on a run to the bunker with a load of Jamaican souse (I think that's what you called it).

March 10, 2013 at 6:36 p.m.
alprova said...

Well...since everyone has argued this one out, permit me to respond to conservative...

While your guess was noble and equally based in ignorance, I am not now, nor have I ever been a Mormon. I attended a Mormon church for a few years during my youth, but did not make the conversion.

As always, you are free to correct me and defend the religion of your choice by refuting that which I have stated and that can be read by yourself in the Bible, if you are up to the task.

But make no mistake; Your beliefs are not now or will ever become facts.

March 10, 2013 at 9:09 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

I love it. . . Bennett creates another witty and relevant cartoon. . . while his Republican-Bircher-Tea Party fans drone on. . . and on. . . and on.

March 10, 2013 at 9:29 p.m.
GameOn said...

Glad to see everyone made it through the first week of sequester. It was a tough week.

March 10, 2013 at 9:57 p.m.
Maximus said...

As a black man I know a pimp when I see one and Obama puts on that he is a nice guy and likes women. Let me tell you something, Obama is a Marxist union organizer thug who likes to have his golfing buddies close and his male boys club closer. During his first four year reign of class warfare many of the women in his cabinet and various other women in the administration left stating that Obama's inner circle was composed of men only. Also with the way the Democrats destroyed Condoleza Rice, Sarah Palin, and Michele Bachman Democrats are very very cruel to women. I guess because the Democrats support the murder of 1.6 million mostly female children each year via abortion they earn the rep or should I say indoctrinate women into believing they are the party for women. I sense that there is a change afoot regarding this perception because Barry Obama is such a dumb ass. Women don't like dumb ass men no matter what color they are or how many birth control pills they get free of charge.

March 10, 2013 at 10:31 p.m.
acerigger said...

Maximus , black?!

Whodathunkit??

Right-on Bro!

lmfao

March 10, 2013 at 11:11 p.m.
SeaSmokie59er said...

Still more people comments on Clay's cartoons than vote. Now, let the whining continue.

March 10, 2013 at 11:55 p.m.
MickeyRat said...

"As a black man I know a pimp when I see one."

Niggah please!

By Jove Carrington, I wager soon he'll start speaking 'jive'!

March 10, 2013 at 11:59 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Maximus says: "Also with the way the Democrats destroyed Condoleza Rice, Sarah Palin, and Michele Bachman Democrats are very very cruel to women."

Sure, sure, Maximus. . . Those Republican-Bircher-Tea Party guys just love women:

"Republican Strategist Steve Schmidt had some harsh words for his own party on Sunday, criticizing the GOP's standing on equal opportunity for women.

As part of an NBC "Meet The Press" roundtable discussing gender roles in the workplace, Schmidt vowed that any organization where women are "not at the table" is "going to have problems."

"It’s one of the problems we have structurally in the Republican Party ... Any company, any organization in today’s day and age that doesn’t give equal opportunity to women, that doesn’t advance women to the table, is going to be an organization that has difficulty competing," Schmidt said. . .

. . . The Republican Party struggled in 2012 with women voters, thanks to a series of controversial viewpoints on topics ranging from birth control to rape.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/10/steve-schmidt-republican-party-women_n_2849128.html

March 11, 2013 at 12:34 a.m.
alprova said...

Maxumus wrote: "As a black man..."

There is no end to the lies that you tell...

March 11, 2013 at 12:44 a.m.
fairmon said...

Alprova...it is good to know you only agree with discrimination when it serves your best interest. I prefer the freedom of being single and the mobility of renting so will just have to live with the discrimination by a majority over a minority. Keep filing jointly and keep her and I will help support her. Keep taking those interest deductions on the house and I will help pay for it. Get a family health care policy and I will subsidize that. Send your kids to public schools and I will help educate them. I value my freedom and willing to pay for it.

Drones in combat in the wars we should not be in anyway is no problem as far as I am concerned but domestic use for the reasons stated by Eric Holder are a good cause for concern by all citizens although few are aware there is a discussion. I am beginning to think you and mountainlaurel think Obama's farts smell like strawberries and the republicans are in a conspiracy by themselves to destroy the country. I fear it is a joint venture by both parties. Why else would they have government workers averaging $123,000+ annually with the number at over $100,000 increasing ten fold in ten years while the private sector averages just over $61,000. Comparison of benefits show a similar disparity. Over 22 million government employees means a lot of tax dollars paying more for services rendered than they should. Yep, cut out the white house tours for kids and lay off the three over $100,000 each calligrpahist of invitations. That should make then wish they hadn't complained.

March 11, 2013 at 12:45 a.m.
fairmon said...

A sweet little old lady was heard quietly whispering a prayer in church. It was so sweet and sincere it is worth sharing. She said, Dear Lord, this has been a tough two or three years ...you have taken my favorite actor Patrick Swayze, my favorite musician Michael Jackson, my favorite salesman Billy Mays, my favorite actress Elizabeth Taylor, my favorite singer Whitney Houston, and, now, my favorite announcer Dick Clark. I just wanted to remind you that my favorite politician is Barack Obama. Amen.

March 11, 2013 at 3:22 a.m.
degage said...

No WH tours cause it cost for secret service. the same secret service are still working, probably going to be there for Michelle's birthday bash. Obama wants the departments to make it as painful for the American people so he can get what he wants. Same thing he did when he wanted the debt ceiling raised.

He was to have his budget by Feb 1 but didn't, said he would have it by Mar 1 and still no budget, now its April. Of course the Senate hasn't put forth one either in 4 yrs so why should he.

March 11, 2013 at 6:45 a.m.
joneses said...

Again Bennett is showing his stupidity. this so called war on women is another lie from the left and only idiots will believe such a thing exist.

March 11, 2013 at 7:11 a.m.
dude_abides said...

Maximus said... "...I know a pimp when I see one..." Yeah, because your wife gets nervous.

As a white man, do you know when sheep are ovulating?

March 11, 2013 at 7:17 a.m.
dude_abides said...

fairmon prays for the death of the President by proxy. Got any loved ones, fairmon? Post their names and we'll make jokes about them dying.

March 11, 2013 at 7:23 a.m.
conservative said...

Jesus cannot be God," alprova wrote:

"While your guess was noble and equally based in ignorance, I am not now, nor have I ever been a Mormon. I attended a Mormon church for a few years during my youth, but did not make the conversion."

You spewed Mormon indoctrination. You admit your indoctrination. Your indoctrination is anti Christian as well as blasphemous.

You don't belong to a local assembly of Christians because you reject Christian doctrine and no Christian local church would permit you as a member because you do not share the beliefs of Christians. Worse, your Mormon beliefs are anti Christian.

You believe Mormon doctrine but now say you are not a Mormon. To much of a heathen for them? You don't believe Christian doctrine but say you are a Christian.

What planet of Joseph Smith are you from?

"As always, you are free to correct me" - You got that right!

March 11, 2013 at 7:45 a.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "Alprova...it is good to know you only agree with discrimination when it serves your best interest."

Oh brother...now you've gone off the deep end.

"I prefer the freedom of being single and the mobility of renting so will just have to live with the discrimination by a majority over a minority."

It's not a system that I am responsible for setting up. Your beotch is not with me or anyone else who qualifies for those deductions.

And I have reminded you many times why those deductions are in place. A single person does not have nearly the expenses that a family does.

"Keep filing jointly and keep her and I will help support her."

My wife and I have been filing separate tax returns for more than 20 years.

"Keep taking those interest deductions on the house and I will help pay for it."

My home has been paid for for fifteen years.

"Get a family health care policy and I will subsidize that."

That is complete balushnick. Health insurance doesn't come any cheaper than it does for a single person.

"Send your kids to public schools and I will help educate them."

My children exited the public school system a decade ago. I still pay school taxes each and every year as a separate line item on my property taxes.

"I value my freedom and willing to pay for it."

Then stop beotching about it. You've made your choices.

"I am beginning to think you and mountainlaurel think Obama's farts smell like strawberries and the republicans are in a conspiracy by themselves to destroy the country."

While I cannot lay any claim to what the President's anal emissions are aromatically similar to, the second half of your statement is quite credible. Republicans talk a good game, but they are doing nothing at all to move this nation forward.

"I fear it is a joint venture by both parties. Why else would they have government workers averaging $123,000+ annually with the number at over $100,000 increasing ten fold in ten years while the private sector averages just over $61,000."

Be that as it may, the fundamental truth is that every one of those people would make far more if they left their Government positions and were to seek positions in the private sector.

"Comparison of benefits show a similar disparity. Over 22 million government employees means a lot of tax dollars paying more for services rendered than they should."

Have you done the math? A ratio of 1:93 is not an excessive amount of people working for the Government.

March 11, 2013 at 7:55 a.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "You spewed Mormon indoctrination. You admit your indoctrination. Your indoctrination is anti Christian as well as blasphemous."

Do you think that Mormons are the only religious organization that do not believe in the trinitarian theory? Most Christians believe that the New Testament of the Bible applies to their lives. Where is that theory supported in the New Testament?

Sir, you are starting to wear your ignorance badge with honor.

"You don't belong to a local assembly of Christians because you reject Christian doctrine and no Christian local church would permit you as a member because you do not share the beliefs of Christians. Worse, your Mormon beliefs are anti Christian."

The fact of the matter is that you cannot begin to fathom a Christian like me, who lives in the real world, who spends numerous hours each week self-educating, who reads the Bible while keeping all that is contained within it in context it is presented at all times, who does not have wool growing out of my skin, and who is definitely not a Mormon, not that I consider Mormonism necessarily a bad thing at all.

"You believe Mormon doctrine but now say you are not a Mormon. To much of a heathen for them? You don't believe Christian doctrine but say you are a Christian."

Sir...I have stated many times that I do not believe many of the things that you do. I have formed my beliefs after attending many different churches over the years, and finding truths in each and every one of them, for what I do not believe is that any one church or sect has a lock on religious truth.

"As always, you are free to correct me" - You got that right!"

Yet you have not done it. You attack me on a personal level, and have refused to address the individual points I have raised that come straight out of the Bible that you consider to be the "word of God."

That one particular belief will not permit you to look at the Bible in realistic terms, and therefore you have no choice but to attack me on a personal level in order to justify your platform of belief.

That Sir, is your problem....not mine.

March 11, 2013 at 8:20 a.m.
Livn4life said...

Cartoons=Funny Pretend War on women to further political agendas=Not Funn

And any woman with a brain knows what is going on here. But that award-winning drawboy just keeps on and on and on with the agenda. I wonder how the ink feels....

March 11, 2013 at 8:28 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Fairmon says: “Drones in combat in the wars we should not be in anyway is no problem as far as I am concerned but domestic use for the reasons stated by Eric Holder are a good cause for concern by all citizens although few are aware there is a discussion.”

Specifically, what statement by Attorney General Holder are you referencing, Fairmon? In his March 7th letter to Rand Paul, Attorney General Holder stated the following:

Dear Senator Paul:

It has come to my attention that you have now asked an additional question: "Does the President have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil?" The answer to that question is no.

Eric H. Holder, Jr.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/attorney-general-eric-holder-drone-letter-to-sen-rand-paul-88572.html#ixzz2NE3e6bRE

March 11, 2013 at 8:37 a.m.
terrybham said...

Another great cartoon Clay. You can tell when you hit a nerve because all the crazies come out of the woodwork.

March 11, 2013 at 8:45 a.m.
Maximus said...

Alprova and Mickey, so um apparently y'all have a problem with blacks. This is very common in the very divided, very racist city of Chattanooga. At least wacky Mtn Laurel did not go there regarding my race she simply stated she is another member of the female special interest group that the Democrats have messaged into submission. Alprova and Mickey your Chatt mafia racism is in full view. You should be ashamed and yes a LOT of conservative black business men I work with think Obama is a disaster for America.

March 11, 2013 at 9:02 a.m.
lkeithlu said...

Curious that you are commenting at all on this one, Max, given your past misogynistic comments on this site.

March 11, 2013 at 9:06 a.m.
conservative said...

"Jesus was simply a human" alprova wrote :

"Do you think that Mormons are the only religious organization that do not believe in the trinitarian theory?"

My discussion was with you and your Mormon indoctrination, which you got from Mormon churches and no one else. You wrote "I attended a Mormon church for a few years during my youth, but did not make the conversion." As usual, you are trying to change the subject.

As for the "trinitarian theory" as you called it, it is not a theory but essential Christian doctrine which you do not believe which is why you are not a member of a local Christian church and one of the many reasons a Christian church would not allow you membership. They of course would want you to attend services in hope that you would repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior but it is you who have made the choice not to attend because you refuse Christian doctrine. The choice and the refusal to attend services is your choice and yours alone.

Those "years" of indoctrination you admitted to has greatly influenced what you believe for you spew their anti Christian doctrine such as "Jesus was simply a human."

March 11, 2013 at 9:33 a.m.
jesse said...

Some one needs to explain to con what the word AD NAUSEUM means!

His religious arguments are on a 12 year old's level!

March 11, 2013 at 9:39 a.m.
caddy said...

How would the leftist / progressive be painting this picture of Drones where a Neo-Con in the office. Totally different that's how.

Hypocrisy cannot detect itself people-- without assistance from above.

March 11, 2013 at 10:25 a.m.
conservative said...

"Jesus can not be God" alprova wrote :

Most Christians believe that the New Testament of the Bible applies to their lives. Where is that theory supported in the New Testament?

First, that is another anti Christian statement by you. Why do you continue this charade?

Second, that is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read? I also marvel at the contempt you have for Christianity.

I can spend hours quoting Scripture that applies to a Christians life, this example for a start :

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Ephesians 5:3

March 11, 2013 at 10:48 a.m.
Leaf said...

Both of them are bad. I don't like the drone mentality from either Obama or the Republicans.

March 11, 2013 at 10:53 a.m.
caddy said...

Agreed, Leaf.

March 11, 2013 at 10:58 a.m.
conservative said...

"Jesus did indeed sin" alprova wrote :

"You attack me on a personal level"

Oh, but you are the one who wrote:

"You are just another asswipe with an opinion on the subject of religion...nothing more and nothing less."

"conservative's idiotic reply:"

March 11, 2013 at 11:10 a.m.
caddy said...

Conservative, keep two things in mind: 1) If Jesus is God and sinned, there remains no hope for any of us and 2 ) If Jesus is God and He did not make a way for us to choose Him, but leaves us to ourselves ( Romans 9 ) there still remains no hope for the sinner.

The take away: Faith is a gift not given to all. It should not worry us or anger us. It is what it is. The mystery should be: why would He choose Any ?

"Thy sins cost no small price. View them in the glass of Christ's sufferings, who veiled His Glory, lost His Joy, and poured out His soul an offering for the least sin. Little sins, unrepented of, will damn thee, as well as greater. Not only great rivers fall into the sea, but little brooks; not only greater sins carry men to hell, but less; easy, because sin is small. Beware of mistakes." Thomas Watson, an Old Puritan.

March 11, 2013 at 1:45 p.m.
conservative said...

caddy,

I entertain no thoughts of converting alprova to Christianity, only God can do that. My objection to alprova is his charade of claiming himself a Christian and trying to influence others as he is a form of a false prophet and an antichrist.

False prophets will receive the most severe form of everlasting hell as they try to bring others along with them. This is my only interest in confronting him. I don't think he is misguided, I believe he knows he is an atheist and only wants to deceive others. Of course I could be wrong on that part , but only that part.

Can you think of any other reason why he would try to deceive others into believing he is a Christian, when he is plainly not?

My anger is only in regards to his blasphemy and deception. He is one poor miserable man, I do feel sorry for him and have told him many times.

March 11, 2013 at 2:12 p.m.
Leaf said...

Hear that Alprova? You are an antichrist. Bet you didn't know that. I normally don't read conservative's posts, but it's a slow rainy day.

March 11, 2013 at 2:17 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Caddy said: "How would the leftist / progressive be painting this picture of Drones where a Neo-Con in the office. Totally different that's how. Hypocrisy cannot detect itself people-- without assistance from above."

The hypocrisy of some of these Neo-Con/Republican/Libertarian/Bircher/Tea Party politicians is also interesting. The majority are rabid supporters of things like “Stand Your Ground” laws and the right of citizens to kill someone if that citizen “feels” they are in danger; yet, these same politicians are outraged at the mere thought of the U.S. government utilizing a drone to defend citizens from a domestic terrorist like Timothy McVeigh who killed 168 innocent people.

March 11, 2013 at 2:32 p.m.
caddy said...

Agreed. Keep in mind also that God Sovereignly controls that as too. Pharaoh hardened his own heart and God hardened it as well. Unbelievers see contradiction there. There is no contradiction: Both are true.

The heresy of human autonomy is the assumption that man is sufficient in and of himself to be the origin of truth, justice, morals, meaning, and beauty. But it fails the light of the book of Job ( just to name one ) because humanism cannot explain Job's suffering on natural or rational grounds. Furthermore, without special revelation from God, man cannot even explain any aspect of reality. Natural law tells the great majority of men that something does not come from nothing. While a majority fall under this category, much less are the beneficiaries of "special revelation." Will they mock it ? Of course they will. All men tend toward mocking God until God comes in Grace and Mercy.

You would do well to pity him more and speak to him less. There's nothing new under the sun: It's been going on since the beginning. Leave him to himself. Seems God above already has.

March 11, 2013 at 2:32 p.m.
conservative said...

"Jesus can not be God" alprova wrote :

Most Christians believe that the New Testament of the Bible applies to their lives. Where is that theory supported in the New Testament?

First, that is another anti Christian statement/question by you. Why do you continue this charade?

Second, that is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read! I also marvel at the contempt you have for Christianity.

I could spend hours quoting Scripture that applies to a Christians life, this example for a start :

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Ephesians 5:3

March 11, 2013 at 2:33 p.m.
caddy said...

Mountainlaurel, I've had a permit to carry a handgun since last October. I'm yet to carry it. With that said, I'm glad to have it. I think I could recognize a threat in my own home as the door was being beat down. I would have no qualms of firing in that circumstance. I don't mind saying I would probably have more difficulty discerning a threat out in the real world outside my home. Most probably would. If my head were being slammed on the ground repeatedly, I would hope I would have the good sense to "stand my ground" seeing that my head was being repeatedly being used as a backboard.

So, given that, what are you thoughts on Ruby Ridge and Waco when the government was doing the hammering of Americans ? Government officials could never go wrong could they ?

Likewise, how would you feel if 1 member of your family was a terrorist and the other 9 were none the wiser; and the government took out the 10 to get the 1. This is happening repeatedly in foreign countries with Obama's drones. Whether that man is a terrorist or not, if a member of his family survives, he is now at war with America. Our Government doesn't seem to see the connection. My point with this is: if the GOP was doing this, liberal / progressive America would be outraged.

Just wondering where that same group is. They've fallen silent. Obama has them mesmerized...it seems. Doesn't matter if it is War, the economy, moral issues, immigration, health-care. Most seem to be on-board with singing on the Titanic.

March 11, 2013 at 2:51 p.m.
conservative said...

caddy,

Well, I have accomplished my goal of getting alprova to admit to his Mormon indoctrination. I believe it was this last Friday. I suspected it from the start about a couple of years ago.

My strategy all along was to use him to get others to pay attention to his anti Christian views. Trust me there are several who wait on their computers all day long waiting to see what I write.I make my living on the internet so I am not really wasting my time when I go back and forth.

It would probably suffice to just quote him from now on to convince even the most hardened that he is not a Christian and is no longer fooling anyone. His recent statements "Jesus was simply a human","Jesus cannot be God,",and "Jesus did indeed sin" are solid proof that he is a blasphemer and certainly not a Christian.

March 11, 2013 at 3 p.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel said...

these same politicians are outraged at the mere thought of the U.S. government utilizing a drone to defend citizens from a domestic terrorist like Timothy McVeigh who killed 168 innocent people.

ml....please tell us how the government would have stopped McVeigh with a drone? Why did they not stop him without a drone? They didn't know who he was until after he had committed that atociouls act. Would you want any future president or administration to have the same drone authority you advocate for the current president and staff? How much safer would you really be if unrestricted drone use against terrorist were approved?

March 11, 2013 at 3:03 p.m.
caddy said...

Well, that explains it. His lily-white-special underwear is on too tight !

I used to have Mormon neighbors. Some of the nicest folk you'd ever meet--who are desperately trying to "work their way to heaven."

Consider: it is the default mode of all "religious-folk" -- RC's not excepted -- to provide something of worth and value for their salvation.

March 11, 2013 at 3:06 p.m.
caddy said...

Exactly, Firmon. Bingo

March 11, 2013 at 3:09 p.m.
timbo said...

This is perpetuating the "women are victims" myths. Yes, Bennett there is a war. The problem is it is against boys and men, especially white men. Here are a few facts:

While women a crying out "Girl Power" I thought I would give you just a few “war on men” facts.

Women represent 51% of the nations PhDs, 51% of business applicants, 67% of college graduates, more than 70% of valedictorians. (Catalina Leadership 2012). In 1975 a higher percent of males than females obtained a bachelor’s degree in 1975 by 6 percentage points, by 2010 the it had flipped to females being the majority by 8 points. Women are 79% of all veterinary school students. They are 47% of all first year medical students. They are 49% of all dental school students.

Recently there was an article that said because of lower male participation in colleges, some had lowered standards to get more males. Females are suing because it is reverse, reverse, discrimination. That’s right, it is ok to do it to white males but don’t you try it with women.

When these facts were reversed and males were dominating it was awful...we had to change it....this is male conspiracy....DISCRIMINATION, DISCRIMINATION!!!!!! blah, blah, blah.

Now that it has flipped, it's ok that one gender dominates. It is ok that boys are at risk and going down for the count because of a female dominated, female oriented, education system that now gives special advantage to girls.

Men are constantly ridiculed by society. Look at commercials on TV. The husbands are always ugly, dumb guys that don't know what dish washing liquid to use and they are always schooled by the pretty, smart wife talking down to him like a dog. Before you criticize me, Neil Cavuto pointed this same thing out on his program talking about how insulting it was. All the while it was a man who invented dish washing liquid.

Look at movies, it is always the evil white business man taking advantage of the poor downtrodden women or minorities that win in end in heroic fashion. Sounds like a propaganda film of the old Soviet Union.

One more thing, before you all do your little victory dance, men are issued patents at a 3 to 1 ratio over women. Women do well with linear concepts but men kill them on abstract thought.

This playing the sexes against one another and perpetuating these myths are just a political tactic of the left to fool women into voting for liberals who can "help" them. The liberal motto, "MAKE A VICTIM, GET A VOTE."

By the way, I have a successful, independent daughter that is a practicing veterinarian who thinks that democrats and liberals attempts at using her are insulting and scurrilous. She doesn't need your help, she can make it on her own. For that matter

The main problem with women is they get their shoulders out of place by patting themselves on the back all the time. You people make me sick.

MAN POWER!!!!! Now, how does that make YOU feel?

March 11, 2013 at 3:24 p.m.
fairmon said...

"I fear it is a joint venture by both parties. Why else would they have government workers averaging $123,000+ annually with the number at over $100,000 increasing ten fold in ten years while the private sector averages just over $61,000."

alprova said...Be that as it may, the fundamental truth is that every one of those people would make far more if they left their Government positions and were to seek positions in the private sector.

You had to pull that out of your derriere. The top rung with good connections and influence do often wind up with high paying jobs with employers that look to them to influence government legislators. However, below that top rung in D.C. most couldn't make any where close to their current salary and benefits in the private sector if they found an employer willing to hire them. Tell me who would hire the local head of HUD or similar government functions?

fairmon said..."Over 22 million government employees means a lot of tax dollars paying more for services rendered than they should."

alprova said...Have you done the math? A ratio of 1:93 is not an excessive amount of people working for the Government.

I had not done the math in any detail. Are you suggesting that one government employee to support each 93 people is not too many? The number per working American is more meaningful. Either number indicates gross inefficiency and a major per person cost to be governed beyond what is desired by many.

You are comfortable with your new found wealth but if interested you may want to look at the growth of government in numbers and compensation the past ten years compared to that of the private sector.

March 11, 2013 at 3:42 p.m.
conservative said...

caddy,

Cain was the first of those who thought they could come to God in their own way and not the way prescribed by God. God had prescribed from the beginning a blood offering, a lamb, signifying that Jesus Christ, the lamb of God who would one die for the sins of the world.

But Cain wanted to approach God his way and offered something from the ground instead :

"...And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect . And Cain was very wroth , and his countenance fell . 6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth ? and why is thy countenance fallen ? 7If thou doest well , shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well , sin lieth at the door.And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." Genesis 4:2-7

March 11, 2013 at 3:49 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Fairmon Leaps: "Please tell us how the government would have stopped McVeigh with a drone? Why did they not stop him without a drone? They didn't know who he was until after he had committed that atociouls act. . .Would you want any future president or administration to have the same drone authority you advocate for the current president and staff?"

Please. I didn’t suggest the U.S. government either could have or should have stopped Timothy McVeigh with a drone. This wasn’t my point, but I believe you already know this.

My point was related to the hypocrisy of these rabid right wing politicians. They tell us it’s OK for us to kill someone in situations where we “feel” we are in danger, but it is wrong for the U.S. government to utilize a drone to defend the citizenry from a domestic terrorist like McVeigh.

Personally, I don’t support the use of drones in any situation where innocent people are likely to be killed or injured, including foreign countries, but this doesn’t mean I can’t point out the hypocrisy of some these right wing politicians when it comes their obvious double standards.

As the question about a U.S. President having the authority to use a drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil, I believe the Attorney General has already answered this question. . . and the answer is “no” a U.S. President does not have the authority to do this.

March 11, 2013 at 4:25 p.m.
timbo said...

What if we had used drones on the Weather Underground or the Black Panthers? Would that be ok to blast you lefty buddies?

Rand Paul was right, period. I don't want a piss ant like George Bush or Barack Obama making these decisions in secret. The fact that you liberals don't seem to mind shows what a bunch of hypocrites you really are.

March 11, 2013 at 4:37 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Fairmon says to Alprova: “I am beginning to think you and mountainlaurel think. . . the republicans are in a conspiracy by themselves to destroy the country. I fear it is a joint venture by both parties. Why else would they have government workers averaging $123,000+ annually with the number at over $100,000 increasing ten fold in ten years while the private sector averages just over $61,000.”

Are there no honest Republican-Libertarian-Tea Party-Birchers out there? It seems as if you people are peddling some new anti-government scam everyday.

Needless to say, your latest scam is less than straightforward. If you’re going to conduct a comparison, you need to be honest and compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges. In this case, how can you possibly obtain any kind of accurate salary “average” when the U.S. government has been contracting out its lower-paid jobs to the private sector for some time.

Most of our current federal jobs require a high level of skill and education – physicians, dentists, lawyers, financial examiners to name just a few. And when you compare the salaries of these federal workers with the private sector, they are not out of the ballpark. In fact, the salaries of most of these federal employees are lower than the private sector not higher.

For example, the Veterans Health Administration tops the list of the highest-paying government jobs with 12,708 doctors receiving annualized salaries of approximately $180,000. Clearly, the annual salaries of these VA doctors are much lower than the salaries of most physcians in the private sector. In the private sector, the average annual salary for a practicing physican in Cardioligy is $402,000; Critical Care Medicine is $258,750; Anesthesiology is $360,000; Family Medicine is $199,850; Endocrinology is $214,550; Diagnostic Radiology is $469,800.

March 11, 2013 at 4:49 p.m.
jesse said...

I must be the only one on here that looks at it this way but the drones aren't the main issue w/me ! The use of the U.S. Military against the civilian pop. ,regardless 0f what weapons system they use is the scary part!Ruby Ridge and Waco at least were carried out by Law enforcement ,regardless of how ill advised they were!

March 11, 2013 at 5:11 p.m.
fairmon said...

mountainlaurel...I stand by the comparison provided as valid and accurate. If you want to believe otherwise have at it. BTW, the government contracted employees are not low paid when compared to the private sector contracted employees. One of your favorite contactors was Haliburton, was that a low cost contract? You chose one field and used averages for medical specialist which are over stated. Who pays malpractice insurance and other cost for government medical personnel? Private physicians have to pay for any benefits they get. Compared to those provided by the government the cost, including a pension for the private practioner, would be around 40% of their before tax income. Unweighted averages are like putting your head in the freezer and feet in the furnace and declaring overall you are comfortable. There are many things I don't do well but comp comparisons is something I have done often and can do. A member of congress that knew the dispraity between government and private compensation tried to justify the government's pay levels by saying they were necessary to attract the best in the field and retain them. A good objective but they seem to be accomplishing only the retention part well.

March 11, 2013 at 5:16 p.m.
fairmon said...

ml..I think this was his second response after being challenged.

. and the answer is “no” a U.S. President does not have the authority to do this.

I don't see the need for drones in the U.S. yet. When we decide to leave troops in another country for god only knows for what reason I could care less if they wipe people out by the thousands if that is what it takes to end the war like we had to do with Japan. We are either at war or we are not and if we are then do whatever it takes to win and end it. It is not a video game as the president and congress appear to be treating it. Americans are being killed daily or mentally and physically hurt for life and our debt is growing faster than we realize while those of us not in combat are trolling around like everything is great and there is plenty of money for everyone.

March 11, 2013 at 5:32 p.m.
fairmon said...

Go along to get alone … Right ?!?

It’s a good thing that certain segments of our nation didn’t follow your advice and not push for the change that the vast majority told them they could not change.

Alpro got what he wanted and don't want anyone stirring anything up. I will write and call and raise all the fuss I can about the things I have an opinion on regardless of what anyone else thinks. You never know when something might catch on. Alpro has changed the saying of "give me liberty or give me death" to "all good things come from government, take all the liberty and freedom you want but provide for and protect us from everything".

March 11, 2013 at 8:09 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "My discussion was with you and your Mormon indoctrination, which you got from Mormon churches and no one else."

I dated a girl during my freshman year of high school. She was a Mormon. Attending a Mormon church was a way for me to spend more time with her. I barely paid attention when in church.

The list of churches that are monotheistic include, Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Mormons, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.

"You wrote "I attended a Mormon church for a few years during my youth, but did not make the conversion." As usual, you are trying to change the subject."

You are the one accusing me of being a Mormon. I hardly think I am guilty of changing the subject by denying your assertion.

"As for the "trinitarian theory" as you called it, it is not a theory but essential Christian doctrine which you do not believe..."

Not all Christians believe in the trinity, for the reasons I cited and it is not supported in the New Testament. You most certainly do, which is fine. For you to sit there and claim to be a Christian and that I am not, is the height of self-righteous arrogance. Again, I am hardly bothered by any of your accusations. You are bothered by what I believe. I could not care less what your beliefs are, or what you base them on.

Mine are based on the very collections of books that you claim to be the word of God. Therefore, you need to take it up with him.

"...which is why you are not a member of a local Christian church and one of the many reasons a Christian church would not allow you membership."

You have no clue, do you? The fact of the matter is that I am a member in good standing with three Christian based churches, and the churches that I attend have lively discussions without condemnation of a soul when we enter into debate.

"They of course would want you to attend services in hope that you would repent and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior but it is you who have made the choice not to attend because you refuse Christian doctrine."

I may not be on board with all of your beliefs, but I have never been guilty of rejecting or refusing a doggone thing that appears in the Bible, but I do keep every single word in the context it is presented. You cherry-pick.

"The choice and the refusal to attend services is your choice and yours alone."

You know nothing of what I do or what church I attend. You're certainly full of guesses however.

"Those "years" of indoctrination you admitted to has greatly influenced what you believe for you spew their anti Christian doctrine such as "Jesus was simply a human."

Read your Bible. Jesus was absolutely human. To deny it is to deny that which is written in the Bible.

March 11, 2013 at 8:18 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "First, that is another anti Christian statement by you. Why do you continue this charade?"

Look you idiot, all you have to do is to disprove one statement I have made. Cite any scripture in the New Testament that supports the trinity.

"Second, that is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read?"

Really? Disprove it then.

"I also marvel at the contempt you have for Christianity."

With what little respect you deserve at this point, address the issue, rather than to offer the pretense that I am evil for typing the truth.

"I can spend hours quoting Scripture that applies to a Christians life"

Then get busy proving that what I have written is not factual, as it is written or not written in the Bible.

That's all ya' gotta do.

March 11, 2013 at 8:26 p.m.
alprova said...

conservative wrote: "Well, I have accomplished my goal of getting alprova to admit to his Mormon indoctrination."

You have done nothing of the sort.

"I suspected it from the start about a couple of years ago."

Who gives a tinker's toot what you suspect?

"My strategy all along was to use him to get others to pay attention to his anti Christian views."

I have not expressed so much as one, anti-Christian view. I am guilty of pointing out facts and truth that can be read in your very own Bible.

"Trust me there are several who wait on their computers all day long waiting to see what I write. I make my living on the internet so I am not really wasting my time when I go back and forth."

Hoo boy...if that is not a false statement, I have never read one.

"It would probably suffice to just quote him from now on to convince even the most hardened that he is not a Christian and is no longer fooling anyone. His recent statements "Jesus was simply a human","Jesus cannot be God,",and "Jesus did indeed sin" are solid proof that he is a blasphemer and certainly not a Christian."

Disprove them. I've offered proof to every statement I have offered. Where is your proof that my statements are not factual?

March 11, 2013 at 8:33 p.m.
rick1 said...

Al, on March 10, 2013 at 9:09 p.m. you said "I attended a Mormon church for a few years during my youth, but did not make the conversion."

On March 11, 2013 at 8:81p.m you said "I dated a girl during my freshman year of high school. She was a Mormon. Attending a Mormon church was a way for me to spend more time with her. I barely paid attention when in church.

Can you please clarify did you attend for a few years like you stated last night or did you attend only during your freshman year as you stated tonight at 8:18 p.m.?

March 11, 2013 at 8:36 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "You had to pull that out of your derriere. The top rung with good connections and influence do often wind up with high paying jobs with employers that look to them to influence government legislators."

So?

"However, below that top rung in D.C. most couldn't make any where close to their current salary and benefits in the private sector if they found an employer willing to hire them. Tell me who would hire the local head of HUD or similar government functions?"

Lots of people have dumped the Government for positions in the private sector for megabucks. But before you discount that, why not read a little on the facts of who works for the Gov't?

http://factcheck.org/2010/12/are-federal-workers-overpaid/

"I had not done the math in any detail. Are you suggesting that one government employee to support each 93 people is not too many? The number per working American is more meaningful. Either number indicates gross inefficiency and a major per person cost to be governed beyond what is desired by many."

You might feel different if you were to need a desired service from the Gov't and if you had to stand in line behind 1,000 people or more before you were served.

"You are comfortable with your new found wealth but if interested you may want to look at the growth of government in numbers and compensation the past ten years compared to that of the private sector."

Not a fair comparison to make. For sure the private sector has been in a slump, but the need for Gov't services has increased, not decreased, both in part due to the private sector slump and an increase in population.

March 11, 2013 at 8:51 p.m.
alprova said...

Fairmon wrote: "Alpro got what he wanted and don't want anyone stirring anything up."

And what was that?

"I will write and call and raise all the fuss I can about the things I have an opinion on regardless of what anyone else thinks."

Hey...it's no skin off my nose if you waste your life pissing on your own pants by turning into the wind when you do it.

"You never know when something might catch on."

You said it yourself. "...but most politician[s] and the wealthy would never allow that to happen."

"Alpro has changed the saying of "give me liberty or give me death" to "all good things come from government, take all the liberty and freedom you want but provide for and protect us from everything"."

If you truly believe that I stated any such a thing, then my pat answer is to tell you to keep on whining and crying and feeling sorry for your lot in life, for all the good it will ever do.

March 11, 2013 at 9:01 p.m.
alprova said...

rick1 wrote: "Can you please clarify did you attend for a few years like you stated last night or did you attend only during your freshman year as you stated tonight at 8:18 p.m.?"

I'll be happy to clarify that for you. I should have written that during my freshman year, I BEGAN attending a Mormon church, which lasted until the middle of my Junior year in high school, when I moved to Georgia from Tuscon, Arizona.

I am still very good friends with and am in constant contact with that girl, who now is a woman in her early fifties, who by the way rejects every bit of the indoctrination that she received as a Mormon.

Any "indoctrination" that I received is a very distant memory, and the strokes that I have had beginning two years ago have erased much more than I could ever begin to remember or heard.

My attendance of that Mormon church was during the years 1973-1975. I haven't spent a minute in a Mormon church since January of 1975.

Any more questions?

March 11, 2013 at 9:11 p.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Fairmon said: “I stand by the comparison provided as valid and accurate. If you want to believe otherwise have at it. . . You chose one field and used averages for medical specialist which are over stated.”

And I still say if you’re going to conduct a comparision study, you need to approach it honestly and compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges, which you have not done. As for the private sector physician salaries I quoted, I obtained the info from a resource used by the physician recruiting industry and I don’t believe the quoted salaries are over stated.

http://www.profilesdatabase.com/resources/2011-2012-physician-salary-survey

Fairmon says: “Government contracted employees are not low paid when compared to the private sector contracted employees. One of your favorite contactors was Haliburton, was that a low cost contract?

Huh? In case you haven’t noticed, Halliburton is a for-profit corporation and it belongs to the private sector, Fairmon. Halliburton hires its own employees and sets its own salary rates so I don’t see how you can possibly consider Halliburton to be a contract employee of the U.S. government. Indeed, I’m sure if the U.S. military had opted to drive its own trucks, cook its own meals, set up its own internet cafes, purchased its own supplies, and performed its own logistics services etc, the salaries of the U.S. military personnel performing these tasks would be much lower than the salaries Halliburton pays its employees.

Of course, if the Defense Dept had done this, the Bush/Cheney administration would have been forced to re-instrate a military draft, which they did not want to do. If they had, more people might have viewed the administration’s “pre-emptive’ invasion of Iraq a bit differently. No, the Bush/Cheney administration preferred to award Halliburton a “sweetheart” contract in which only Halliburton was allowed to bid. Some call it a love offering to Halliburton from Dick Cheney.

March 11, 2013 at 9:51 p.m.
fairmon said...

Are you saying other government contracted work is not with for profit companies? The compensation comparisons of medical personnel are apples to apples when considering the total package which includes benefits which you seemed to ignore. Private physicians have to provide their own insurance and other benefits enjoyed by government medical personnel. There are very few doctors that would not jump at the chance to be a member of the governments medical staff at the current compensation arrangement. Make the same comparison for secretaries, the head of HUD and similar functions. You don't see them seeking private sector employment for higher or even equal pay. My comparisons of comp cost per employee are sad but valid.

March 12, 2013 at 3:45 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Fairmon asks: “Are you saying other government contracted work is not with for profit companies?”

Well, Fairmon, I must say this is a rather funny question coming from someone who claims to have a lot of business savvy. . . But maybe humor was your goal.

If this wasn’t your intent, the answer is no this is not what I was saying. The process of contracting out government work is called privatization, and the whole point of a government outsourcing services and functions to private firms like Halliburton is to save money, be more productive, and get rid of all those lazy incompetent government employees.

It’s all a fairytale, of course, but the tale is really popular among politicians and the for-profit sector. The story inspires them to cheat and the process helps them to get rich quick.

March 12, 2013 at 1:16 p.m.
fairmon said...

ml said..If this wasn’t your intent, the answer is no this is not what I was saying. The process of contracting out government work is called privatization, and the whole point of a government outsourcing services and functions to private firms like Halliburton is to save money, be more productive, and get rid of all those lazy incompetent government employees,

I agree, government oursourcing is like most government operations, ineffcient and fraudalent. The contract is losely written enabling the contractor to charge rediculous fees, the comp arrangement is often cost plus which guarantess the contractor the more they spend the more they profit. They don't have accountable contract administrators like the private sector. It invites abuse and misuse by congress and others in government. Over 22 million government employees plus contracted work is more than can be managed. Government is too big with more departments and programs than can ever be managed effectively. Some department heads don't know how many employees they have in their department.

March 13, 2013 at 6:34 a.m.
mountainlaurel said...

Fairmon says: “Government oursourcing is like most government operations, ineffcient and fraudalent. The contract is losely written enabling the contractor to charge rediculous fees the comp arrangement is often cost plus which guarantess the contractor the more they spend the more they profit.

I agree there are some common problems often associated with government outsourcing, but I disagree with your overall assessment and conclusion. For starters, the type of “cost plus” contract that the Bush/Cheney administration negotiated with companies like Halliburton is not a norm when it comes to the average government contract, which is one of the reasons why the Halliburton arrangement is usually referred to as the “sweetheart” deal.

Fairmon said: “They don't have accountable contract administrators like the private sector.

Since is the private sector that is often guilty of inefficiency and over charges when it comes to their government contracts, I don’t see how you can say accountability “like the private sector” with a straight face. As for the government’s accountability efforts, your charge is certainly not true in the case the Halliburton. If those government auditors had not been performing their duties, the abuses – which was about $553 million the last time I checked a few years ago - would not have been uncovered and all those billings for meals that weren’t served, their excessive administration charges, and their inflated prices for things like gasoline would have simply gone by unnoticed. Indeed, if this were case, the U.S. Department of Justice would also not have grounds to file their civil fraud case against Halliburton’s KBR subsidiary.

Fairmon said: “It invites abuse and misuse by congress and others in government.”

I agree with you on this point. For starters, it seems incredibly dumb to me for any country’s department of defense to rely on a for profit corporation with a poor track record. . . And then, of course, there is the matter of granting “no bid” contracts, which appears to be popular among politicians these days. . . And what kind of idiots continues to give government contracts to inefficient contractors who are known to routinely cheat, lie, and steal from the government?

March 13, 2013 at 8:26 p.m.
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